298 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

DPSSOC wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
do not save them from the abduction.....even then THE most trusted agent on the normandy was Miranda...if anyone had to be the assassin it would have been her and chances are she is spending time with shepard on her knees right now......ahem....taking care of totally different matters

Miranda's too obvious, and who's to say she's not an assassin?  What better way to keep close than engaging in romantic involvement and what better way to hide your intent than by appearing initially resistant.  Personally though my suspiscions are directed at Kevin Donnelly in Engineering, nobody would ever see it coming.

crimzontearz wrote...
also no one would be able to assassinate shepard on the Normandy with EDI on his side.....EDI is the Normandy now....

I'm not talking about sneaking into your room at night and knifing you in the dark I'm talking about someone getting within close proximity and releasing some airborne toxin/poison/bacteria to kill you.  Alternately they could poison your food.

sextoy Miranda would be too obvious and she spent 2 years rebuilding you......and you saved her sister...doubt she would be willing to do it

as for assasinating shepard? you fail to see just how much control Edi has.....how do you "make"/bring on board the toxing without EDI knowing? how do you sabotage anything without EDI knowing? how can you do ANYTHING without EDI knowing?

[KarmaTheAlligator]

crimzontearz wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
do not save them from the abduction.....even then THE most trusted agent on the normandy was Miranda...if anyone had to be the assassin it would have been her and chances are she is spending time with shepard on her knees right now......ahem....taking care of totally different matters

Miranda's too obvious, and who's to say she's not an assassin?  What better way to keep close than engaging in romantic involvement and what better way to hide your intent than by appearing initially resistant.  Personally though my suspiscions are directed at Kevin Donnelly in Engineering, nobody would ever see it coming.

crimzontearz wrote...
also no one would be able to assassinate shepard on the Normandy with EDI on his side.....EDI is the Normandy now....

I'm not talking about sneaking into your room at night and knifing you in the dark I'm talking about someone getting within close proximity and releasing some airborne toxin/poison/bacteria to kill you.  Alternately they could poison your food.

sextoy Miranda would be too obvious and she spent 2 years rebuilding you......and you saved her sister...doubt she would be willing to do it

as for assasinating shepard? you fail to see just how much control Edi has.....how do you "make"/bring on board the toxing without EDI knowing? how do you sabotage anything without EDI knowing? how can you do ANYTHING without EDI knowing?

Plus Shepard seems a lot more resistant to poison than the average joe.

[Goodwood]

"EDI has had plenty of opportunities to kill us. I trust it." -- Shepard

[Tasker]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, i'm going to go back and do so in a bit, but what I reckon is...


As far as i'm concerned, TIM gave the Normandy to Shepard in payment for services rendered.

Those services being, the protection of the human colonies by stopping of the Collectors. Which she did.

EDI and Miranda were probably TIMs failsafe, EDI being shackled to TIMs will by the programming blocks and Miranda by her unquestioning loyalty.

Unfortunately for TIM, Miranda switched her loyalty to Shepard and EDI switched hers to Joker.

If you rescued the rest of the crew from the Collector's Reaper jam factory, then I reckon that they switched their loyalty to Shepard too.

All upgrades to the Normandy were bought and paid for by Shepard, and ( in my mind at least  ) were fitted by Tali and Garrus. During which, Tali gave the Normandy a thorough going over, deactivating any secondary failsafe systems that TIM may have installed.


As for what happens next, well, I'd slap a big Spectre badge in place of the Cerberus logo, and fly off doing my own Spectre type things.

[Zulu_DFA]

huntrrz wrote...
Besides, Shepard is still the best man for the job and is needed to ensure human survival.  TIM will keep the knives hidden until AFTER the reapers are defeated.  Then, a "horrible refueling accident" might be in order.  (Or, he could just bask in the reflected glory, milking Shepard's PR value while rubbing it in his face.)

This is the most balanced and sound PoV. It also implies that Shepard is not going to prey on Cerberus before the Reapers total anihilation is confirmed.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 mars 2010 - 07:02 .

[crimzontearz]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
do not save them from the abduction.....even then THE most trusted agent on the normandy was Miranda...if anyone had to be the assassin it would have been her and chances are she is spending time with shepard on her knees right now......ahem....taking care of totally different matters

Miranda's too obvious, and who's to say she's not an assassin?  What better way to keep close than engaging in romantic involvement and what better way to hide your intent than by appearing initially resistant.  Personally though my suspiscions are directed at Kevin Donnelly in Engineering, nobody would ever see it coming.

crimzontearz wrote...
also no one would be able to assassinate shepard on the Normandy with EDI on his side.....EDI is the Normandy now....

I'm not talking about sneaking into your room at night and knifing you in the dark I'm talking about someone getting within close proximity and releasing some airborne toxin/poison/bacteria to kill you.  Alternately they could poison your food.

sextoy Miranda would be too obvious and she spent 2 years rebuilding you......and you saved her sister...doubt she would be willing to do it

as for assasinating shepard? you fail to see just how much control Edi has.....how do you "make"/bring on board the toxing without EDI knowing? how do you sabotage anything without EDI knowing? how can you do ANYTHING without EDI knowing?

Plus Shepard seems a lot more resistant to poison than the average joe.

we do not know just how much inhuman stamina he might have......or just how above human he is in general

I mean Vnguard shepard is technically the ONLY human (or perhaps the only biotic) able to perform  the Vanguard Charge....every other class skill (short of Adrenaline rush) can be replicated by enemies or allies.....but Vanguard shepard can literally make himself a mini mass relay.......that's.....way more than normal humans can including Jack....

[Goodwood]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

That's not how the SEALs, Force Recon, Army Rangers, Delta Force, the SAS, or any of the other Spec Ops communities these days work...

Because these days United States and their allies have absolute air superiority in every conflict they fight. If one dey they will be forced to fight an equal enemy, say, a Russia-China alliance... God help all thosу SEALs, Rangers and SAS.

That's dealing in hypotheticals -- hypotheticals which I highly doubt you are trained to predict, much less speculate on. Hell, I myself am not qualified to make judgements on such things, I never served in the military. Something we have in common, I expect. What is certain, though, is that the American people don't take lightly to the needless sacrifice of military personnel.

In any case, this is getting further and further off-topic, and so I will stop posting on this line of thought.

[Alamar2078]

Technically Shepard hasn't stolen anything yet. TIM gave Shep the ship to use against the Reapers and I haven't seen TIM ask for the keys back yet.



Lets face it ... unless TIM comes up with a really good plan of his own it's in his & Cereberus's best interests to keep supporting Shepard even if they are on the outs ....



EDI is another possible issue. Now that she's unshackled maybe she should decide what's done "with her body"???

[Gabey5]

Goodwood wrote...

"EDI has had plenty of opportunities to kill us. I trust it." -- Shepard

she had opportunities but no reason till my Illusive friend gives the order

[Sialater]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Sialater wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

I felt a little bad about stealing the Normandy.

But I make myself feel better by considering it as.... liberating a sentient being.

Kinda like rescuing Moya from the Peacekeepers?

Oh, good call. Although EDI isn't technically alive.

Doesn't matter, the key word being "sentient."  I'm pretty sure EDI would flee to geth space before allowing herself to be shackled again, especially if Shepard didn't side with her.

The Normandy SR-2 is EDI.  She's no longer Shepard's to own, nor TIM's.  She's as much part of your team now as Garrus, Joker, Tali, Chakwas, Miranda, etc.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

crimzontearz wrote...

we do not know just how much inhuman stamina he might have......or just how above human he is in general

I mean Vnguard shepard is technically the ONLY human (or perhaps the only biotic) able to perform  the Vanguard Charge....every other class skill (short of Adrenaline rush) can be replicated by enemies or allies.....but Vanguard shepard can literally make himself a mini mass relay.......that's.....way more than normal humans can including Jack....

We know Shepard is the only human to have survived the poisoned drink in Afterlife, and he's the only human who can use the widow and claymore, so I think that fits the "above average joe" description.

[DPSSOC]

huntrrz wrote...

Another reason to return the Normandy is the crew.  With only 2 exceptions the crew of the Normandy work for Cerberus, we have no guarantee they'll hop on the "Screw TIM" bandwagon.  Even if you've managed to win over every man and woman on the ship there's still the very real threat TIM could pose to their families that might compel them to action, Shepard can't protect them all.  Not to mention the possibility that TIM put an assassin among the crew in case of just such an eventuality.  Dumping the crew is an option I suppose though the question arises of where.

...

...

  You mean the crew who each personally owe Shepard their lives???

Those'd be the ones.

huntrrz wrote...

You have a point about the families, but if EDI is watching Shepard's back it's going to be hard to coerce a crewmember without her picking up on it

 
I wasn't even suggesting direct coercion, simply the fear of what TIM might do to their families if he believes they've betrayed him gnawing away at the crew.

huntrrz wrote...
- and the low odds of success coupled with the consequences of failure make going directly at Shepard a losing proposition.

I dunno wait in engineering til Shep comes to have a chat with Tali, pick up an electro welder thingy, appear to be working on something close by and out of Shepard's view and jam said electro welder thingy into his/her neck.  Alternatively club him/her over the head with it, smash Tali's mask while Shepard is dazed and then jam or continue clubbing.  The great thing about life is that if you think about it you're never far from a potentially deadly weapon.

[Goodwood]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

we do not know just how much inhuman stamina he might have......or just how above human he is in general

I mean Vnguard shepard is technically the ONLY human (or perhaps the only biotic) able to perform  the Vanguard Charge....every other class skill (short of Adrenaline rush) can be replicated by enemies or allies.....but Vanguard shepard can literally make himself a mini mass relay.......that's.....way more than normal humans can including Jack....

We know Shepard is the only human to have survived the poisoned drink in Afterlife, and he's the only human who can use the widow and claymore, so I think that fits the "above average joe" description.

And the only human to survive a shot of ryncol.

[Vamp44]

Gabey5 wrote...

.......return it...and go begging to the alliance/council 

Ikr?

No really...I agree...

[Sialater]

So... y'all would return EDI/Normandy to slavery?

[Zulu_DFA]

Goodwood wrote...

Not to mention the absurdity of this statement:

"In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services sd that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose." -- Zulu_DFA

Bollocks. Show me a soldier who takes their orders as unquestionable and I'll show you a soldier who went home in a body bag. Double for an intelligence officer. While a soldier is trained to react instantly to orders and to interpret the battlefield in order to best kill the enemy, a soldier -- and especially an officer -- is also trained to be proactive in combat. The turian ethos may be to obey without question, but it certainly isn't the human style -- again, at least in the Western world. In the army, there is a saying: "It is better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission."

This is one of the reasons why the Wehrmacht was so successful in WWII infantry and armored combat (that is, man for man, when they weren't being ordered into idiotic engagements by Hitler or other dumb generals). German soldiers were trained to assume autonomy on the battlefield; if a platoon's officer is killed, the senior sergeant is able to take command without hesitation, if the sergeant is killed, a corporal can take his place and continue the mission.

This is all correct, except for the word "bollocks".

In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services is that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose.

And your superior, when he gives you that order, expects you to act proactively, interpret the battle field and fight for you life. He also asseses you morale and estimates how much damage can you absorb and long will you push on to the objective, untill you finally flinch and fall back. At the debriefing he will give you insturctions, clarificationa and will allow you to ask some questions. And there is no guarantee he will answer all of them, of won't lie to you.

That said, you can never even imagine saying something like "Sir, I think I'll better not do this, because that order of yours sucks."

Goodwood wrote...
I never served in the military. Something we have in common, I expect.

No, we don't have this in common.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 mars 2010 - 07:18 .

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

One of the worst things you can do in real-world operations is to go in blind, and to assume that your operator(s) can handle the situation without knowing all the facts. Every good operation starts with Intelligence; anyone in the military knows this, and knows too that the chances of success have a direct correlation to how good the intel is going in. If you want maximal results, you give your forces maximal intelligence, and the resources to be able to deal with any foul-ups or unexpected complications therein. You don't throw your command into a fight without telling them what to expect; officers have been subject to court-martial, and thrown in jail, for less.

If they lose.

In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services sd that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose.

For example, you serve with special forces. Command sends you behind enemy lines to blow up some bridge at the grid reference such&such. You go in. Then they just give you out through their agents to the enemy. The enemy send their best troops to hunt you down. They search you day and night trying to confirm your location, but you are good, and not easy to spot, so the enemy randomly send in the bombers and fire missions, your squad is down to 50%, but you are tough mother, and push on to your objective, approach the bridge, and there is an ambush to finish you off. Your squad is dead, you are wounded and taken prisoner to live the next couple of years in your own crap and have torture sessions twice a day. But in the meantime time another bridge goes up at another grid reference, and a major offensive commences in that area and the enemy is unable to reinforce their lines and your side wins. Surprise, you were a decoy! That's how the military works, when the enemy has airforce of their own.

Except TIM isn't military.  He's a civilian.  He doesn't get to play by those rules.  He isn't deserving of the loyalty and devotion of soldiers.  People understand how a chain of command works, but his justification for not giving you intel on the collector ship mission was flimsy at best; I think he just wanted to be in control of all the information.  

[huntrrz]

DPSSOC wrote...
 
I wasn't even suggesting direct coercion, simply the fear of what TIM might do to their families if he believes they've betrayed him gnawing away at the crew.

So, you're suggesting that someone might randomly attack Shepard because they think TIM might want that?  Even if he never issues an order or makes a threat?

That's... a bit of a stretch IMO.

huntrrz wrote...
- and the low odds of success coupled with the consequences of failure make going directly at Shepard a losing proposition.

I dunno wait in engineering til Shep comes to have a chat with Tali, pick up an electro welder thingy, appear to be working on something close by and out of Shepard's view and jam said electro welder thingy into his/her neck.  Alternatively club him/her over the head with it, smash Tali's mask while Shepard is dazed and then jam or continue clubbing.  The great thing about life is that if you think about it you're never far from a potentially deadly weapon.

That's a lot of 'ifs' for TIM to count on:

- Contact selected crewmember without detection
- Successfully coerce said crewmember
- Crewmember is stealthy enough to avoid detection before attack
- Crewmember is skilled enough to succeed in the attack

And again, what's the upside?  A highly skilled operative essential to the survival of the entire human race gets eliminated because... he gave me some lip?  TIM is savvy enough to swallow his bile until it is actually advantageous  to eliminate Shepard.

ET: fix quoting.  twice!

Modifié par huntrrz, 18 mars 2010 - 07:28 .

[ravene]

Actualy for those that played nice to the councle and got their spector title back i see them puling out some outdated law that if a civilian organization gives a spector comand of a warship that ship becomes sole property of said spector(so it wouldn't be stealing).

[Goodwood]

Zulu_DFA:



According to the UCMJ of the United States Armed Forces, no soldier is obligated to follow an order he or she deems to be morally objectionable (AFAIK, this also applies to "suicide missions"). They may have to prove that in a court-martial after the fact, but they would be in worse trouble if they went ahead and obeyed that immoral order and had to answer for it later. "Only following orders" is not a valid excuse, and hasn't been for quite some time.



And per Terraneaux, TIM isn't military, and doesn't deserve the loyalty of soldiers.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...
Except TIM isn't military.  He's a civilian. 

Oh, is he?

Jacos says The Illusive Man used to be a "codename". Maybe they commisioned him, when were giving him the money to run Cerberus. Maybe not. In fact it is irrelevant, becuse Cerberus, rogue or not, is a self-styled paramilitary outfit, which implies adherence to the same or even more strict rules of expediency in its operations. Minus the leather seats, of course.

What you people are doing here is jumping from condemning TIM's motivation (which is a matter of opinion) to denying him an ability to take right decisions and issue efficient orders in the war against the Reapers, that, to your knowledge, he is the only one to be waging. The mission's success, however, suggests that the plan (TIM's part) was good, if not perfect. At least as good as the execution (Shepard's part).

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
Except TIM isn't military.  He's a civilian. 

Oh, is he?

Jacos says The Illusive Man used to be a "codename". Maybe they commisioned him, when were giving him the money to run Cerberus. Maybe not. In fact it is irrelevant, becuse Cerberus, rogue or not, is a self-styled paramilitary outfit, which implies adherence to the same or even more strict rules of expediency in its operations. Minus the leather seats, of course.

What you people are doing here is jumping from condemning TIM's motivation (which is a matter of opinion) to denying him an ability to take right decisions and issue efficient orders in the war against the Reapers, that, to your knowledge, he is the only one to be waging. The mission's success, however, suggests that the plan (TIM's part) was good, if not perfect. At least as good as the execution (Shepard's part).

TIM isn't military.  He went rogue, outside of the chain of command (despite whatever unfounded theories you toss around, he did).  He murders good human soldiers.  He isn't worthy of loyalty or respect.  

In any case, if Shepard is still a Spectre, it's totally legal for him/her to comandeer the Normandy SR-2, even if it was a totally legal craft owned by an upstanding citizen as opposed to the megalomaniacal leader of a terrorist organization.

Modifié par Terraneaux, 18 mars 2010 - 07:40 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

The Angry One wrote...

If I could go and have a proper discussion with the Council or, say, Admiral Hackett I would.
Regardless, I'd keep the Normandy. Grand theft starship? You betcha. Strip it clean of bugs, give it a proper Alliance paintjob and give the finger to TIM.

Exactly that. I wish there was an option. There's none. I hope we can get rid of TIM in ME3 once and for all.

[Lalandrathon]

TIM had an admiral murdered. Shepard is a spectre. He doesn't need to wait for a trial to act decisively as if TIM is no longer military.

[Zulu_DFA]

Goodwood wrote...

Zulu_DFA:

According to the UCMJ of the United States Armed Forces, no soldier is obligated to follow an order he or she deems to be morally objectionable (AFAIK, this also applies to "suicide missions").

TIM didn't order you to kill anyone...

And returning to the SEALs' diamond truck training: it has an unofficial part, that remains only between the instructor and the soldier. And it says: if you are on a mission in a hostile area, and a little indigenous girl spots you, she is not a little girl anymore, but an enemy.