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[Halo Quea]

Again Shepard's bill with Cerberus and TIM in case anyone missed it-



Payment to the Shadow Broker (unknown but clearly astronomical)

Lazarus Project- $4 Billion Credits

Normandy SR2- $240 Billion Credits of EZO



Would YOU allow Shepard to just walk away and take your property after spending that kind of money?

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Halo Quea wrote...

Again Shepard's bill with Cerberus and TIM in case anyone missed it-

Payment to the Shadow Broker (unknown but clearly astronomical)
Lazarus Project- $4 Billion Credits
Normandy SR2- $240 Billion Credits of EZO

Would YOU allow Shepard to just walk away and take your property after spending that kind of money?

They're making billions anyway, so that cost, while fairly high, won't stop them.

[Terraneaux]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

No, I'm pretty sure that he's talking about all of the 'bad things' that Cerberus has been doing, like murdering alliance soldiers and abducting civilians and such.  

Wouldn't that count as going rogue?

'Going rogue' means leaving the chain of command, betraying the Alliance.  

Or doing stuff they're not supposed to do. Like murdering Alliance soldiers. Doesn't that count as a betrayal?

Well, yeah, but you can never mention the dead alliance soldiers, Kahoku, or Akuze in ME2.  All of the conversations about Cerberus revolve around their unethical experiments rather than their betrayal of humanity's government, and it's that part in particular that makes me question their claims of devotion to humanity.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

'Going rogue' means leaving the chain of command, betraying the Alliance.  

Yeah. Alliance is obviously in trouble now that TIM betrayed them. They even send some money his way from time to time, to make him feel remorse and emotional discomfort.

[ObserverStatus]

Shepard's cybernetic implants are cerberus property too, if he makes evil tim too mad he'll just shut down his pacemaker.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Terraneaux wrote...

Well, yeah, but you can never mention the dead alliance soldiers, Kahoku, or Akuze in ME2.  All of the conversations about Cerberus revolve around their unethical experiments rather than their betrayal of humanity's government, and it's that part in particular that makes me question their claims of devotion to humanity.

Oh I'm with you on that. There's even a dialogue option with TIM where he says something like "you and the other humans", which made me really question his motives.

But Shepard seems to be pretty dumb. Or not, depending on the ending

[Terraneaux]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Well, yeah, but you can never mention the dead alliance soldiers, Kahoku, or Akuze in ME2.  All of the conversations about Cerberus revolve around their unethical experiments rather than their betrayal of humanity's government, and it's that part in particular that makes me question their claims of devotion to humanity.

Oh I'm with you on that. There's even a dialogue option with TIM where he says something like "you and the other humans", which made me really question his motives.

But Shepard seems to be pretty dumb. Or not, depending on the ending

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Shepard is dumb regardless of the ending.  You can't say 'I'm blowing up the base because I don't want you to have it TIM.'  Instead, your character gives some crappy reasoning about how the base is 'tainted' with evil or something (I could feel Mordin facepalming at my lack of understanding of how ethics works right behind me).  Absolutely terrible example of a moral/ethical choice.

[The Angry One]

TIM specifically ordered no kill-switches or control devices in Shepard.

He's probably regretting that decision now.

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

'Going rogue' means leaving the chain of command, betraying the Alliance.  

Yeah. Alliance is obviously in trouble now that TIM betrayed them. They even send some money his way from time to time, to make him feel remorse and emotional discomfort.

It's mentioned that there are specific individuals who give money to Cerberus, people like Miranda's dad, but it's never said or implied that the Alliance as a whole is funding Cerberus now that they've gone rogue.  There are a few traitors who are funneling money towards a terrorist organization, but that's it.  I hope we get to root them out in ME3 .

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Terraneaux wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Well, yeah, but you can never mention the dead alliance soldiers, Kahoku, or Akuze in ME2.  All of the conversations about Cerberus revolve around their unethical experiments rather than their betrayal of humanity's government, and it's that part in particular that makes me question their claims of devotion to humanity.

Oh I'm with you on that. There's even a dialogue option with TIM where he says something like "you and the other humans", which made me really question his motives.

But Shepard seems to be pretty dumb. Or not, depending on the ending

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Shepard is dumb regardless of the ending.  You can't say 'I'm blowing up the base because I don't want you to have it TIM.'  Instead, your character gives some crappy reasoning about how the base is 'tainted' with evil or something (I could feel Mordin facepalming at my lack of understanding of how ethics works right behind me).  Absolutely terrible example of a moral/ethical choice.

Yeah, but maybe he meant tainted (or whatever s/he said) as in anybody who works on it will be indoctrinated. It is Reaper tech after all.

[Terraneaux]

The Angry One wrote...

TIM specifically ordered no kill-switches or control devices in Shepard.
He's probably regretting that decision now.

To be honest, it probably wasn't a terrible idea.  What happens if you boarded the derelict Reaper or ran into some geth and shepard's killswitch gets hacked?  Whoops....

[ObserverStatus]

The Angry One wrote...

TIM specifically ordered no kill-switches or control devices in Shepard.
He's probably regretting that decision now.

I'm guessing he also instructed Dr. Wilson not to betray Lazrus Cell and kill everyone, but he didn't listen to those orders.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Shepard is dumb regardless of the ending.  You can't say 'I'm blowing up the base because I don't want you to have it TIM.'  Instead, your character gives some crappy reasoning about how the base is 'tainted' with evil or something (I could feel Mordin facepalming at my lack of understanding of how ethics works right behind me).  Absolutely terrible example of a moral/ethical choice.

Stop whining over lack of "Akuze" options in w/TIM dialogue.

There is no "I'm all gung-ho pro-human, let's get 'em, TIM!" option either. So, we're even.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[Terraneaux]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Yeah, but maybe he meant tainted (or whatever s/he said) as in anybody who works on it will be indoctrinated. It is Reaper tech after all.

You'd think they would have been pretty specific about that, but instead all this 'tainted' talk comes from the fact that humans were killed there, which is silly.  The risk of indoctrination would have been an actual good point to make rather than 'Good is dumb' which is what I got from that exchange.

[The Angry One]

bobobo878 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

TIM specifically ordered no kill-switches or control devices in Shepard.
He's probably regretting that decision now.

I'm guessing he also instructed Dr. Wilson not to betray Lazrus Cell and kill everyone, but he didn't listen to those orders.

Pft we all know it was TIM who ordered that.

[Chuck_Vu]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Chuck_Vu wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

One of the worst things you can do in real-world operations is to go in blind, and to assume that your operator(s) can handle the situation without knowing all the facts. Every good operation starts with Intelligence; anyone in the military knows this, and knows too that the chances of success have a direct correlation to how good the intel is going in. If you want maximal results, you give your forces maximal intelligence, and the resources to be able to deal with any foul-ups or unexpected complications therein. You don't throw your command into a fight without telling them what to expect; officers have been subject to court-martial, and thrown in jail, for less.

If they lose.

In fact the first and foremost rule in the military and intelligence services sd that you never second-guess you superiors. You receive an order and carry it out without knowing it's true purpose.

For example, you serve with special forces. Command sends you behind enemy lines to blow up some bridge at the grid reference such&such. You go in. Then they just give you out through their agents to the enemy. The enemy send their best troops to hunt you down. They search you day and night trying to confirm your location, but you are good, and not easy to spot, so the enemy randomly send in the bombers and fire missions, your squad is down to 50%, but you are tough mother, and push on to your objective, approach the bridge, and there is an ambush to finish you off. Your squad is dead, you are wounded and taken prisoner to live the next couple of years in your own crap and have torture sessions twice a day. But in the meantime time another bridge goes up at another grid reference, and a major offensive commences in that area and the enemy is unable to reinforce their lines and your side wins. Surprise, you were a decoy! That's how the military works, when the enemy has airforce of their own.

Two things:

If command did that, it's called TREASON.  Simply put.  Giving away intel to the enemy is treason.  There's no getting around this.  NO ONE is above this.  Even the President of the United States is subject to laws regarding treason.  And I suspect most, if not all, heads of state.

It's not called treason. It's called plan of offensive. Win the war and go home by Xmas.

Second, if they did pull this stunt.  You lose the faith (and quite possibly the loyalty) of the soldiers/agents/operators.  This is one of the major factors of insubordination, mutiny, "going rogue", or even joining the enemy.  Anyone who's a been in a leadership position knows this.  Some leaders have suffered incidents of "training accidents" or "friendly fire" from this.  If command want's to keep the faith and loyalty of those on a Decoy mission, they tell them that they are on a decoy mission, and that it's dangerous.  Then you can argue the "They knew what they were getting into."

And, if the enemy takes them prisoner, they spill that they are just a decoy and the enemy understands that something big is going to happen some place else, and that other Commado team gets ambushed and the whole operation goes to hell. Great. Be an honest man - lose the war!

If I had the option.  After the Collector mission, I would have parked the Normandy 2 at the Citadel, told the entire crew what TIM did, and given each of them the option to join me as I go make my case with the Council or they (those who decided to stay with TIM) can take the Normandy 2 back to TIM.  But EVERYONE who served on the Normandy 2 would know about TIMs betrayal/treason.

Obviously, in real life you will never take a position similar to Shepard's in-game.

It is treason.  Give us factual instances of this where commanders GAVE the enemy VALID intel which put friendly and/or allied lives in danger and it wasn't.  Just don't say it wasn't.  False intel does not count.

If captured, all you give is Name, Rank, and Social.  You assumed they would spill right away.  And you didn't address the sticky situation about losing the faith/loyalty of those soldiers/agents/operators.

That's a game, and in real life, I'm not some elite commando for some military.  I have no need to pretend to be something I'm not.  And yes, I have.  Was it exactly like the Collector Mission?  No.  But did it involve a betrayal of trust and faith?  Yes.  I don't deal well with betrayal.  And that person is no longer my supervisor.  But I'm still employed.  He's not.

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Stop whining over lack of "Akuze" options in w/TIM dialogue.

There is no "I'm all gung-ho pro-human, let's get 'em, TIM!" option either. So, we're even.

Perhaps, but the dialog options that I mentioned in particular are a more egregious oversight considering that Sole Survivor is the default player background.  

[The Angry One]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is no "I'm all gung-ho pro-human, let's get 'em, TIM!" option either. So, we're even.

Sure there is, it's called the "Here have this free human smoothee Reaper-o-matic base TIM!" option.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Terraneaux wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Yeah, but maybe he meant tainted (or whatever s/he said) as in anybody who works on it will be indoctrinated. It is Reaper tech after all.

You'd think they would have been pretty specific about that, but instead all this 'tainted' talk comes from the fact that humans were killed there, which is silly.  The risk of indoctrination would have been an actual good point to make rather than 'Good is dumb' which is what I got from that exchange.

Agreed, it's somewhat difficult to RP properly without  valid choices. Fingers crossed for ME3.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

'Going rogue' means leaving the chain of command, betraying the Alliance.  

Yeah. Alliance is obviously in trouble now that TIM betrayed them. They even send some money his way from time to time, to make him feel remorse and emotional discomfort.

It's mentioned that there are specific individuals who give money to Cerberus, people like Miranda's dad, but it's never said or implied that the Alliance as a whole is funding Cerberus now that they've gone rogue.  There are a few traitors who are funneling money towards a terrorist organization, but that's it.  I hope we get to root them out in ME3 .

There seems to be a lot of rogue elements in the Alliance... Maybe, upon showing a finger to TIM, you should join that mechaniс guy from Horizon? Buy a farm and breed the sheep?

[Zulu_DFA]

The Angry One wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is no "I'm all gung-ho pro-human, let's get 'em, TIM!" option either. So, we're even.

Sure there is, it's called the "Here have this free human smoothee Reaper-o-matic base TIM!" option.

No it's not. That option is "OK, have the base, TIM. But you are a megalomaniacal idiot. But I beat you on this! Ouch..."

[DPSSOC]

Terraneaux wrote...
There are a few traitors who are funneling money towards a terrorist organization, but that's it.

Traitors, or patriots?

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
There are a few traitors who are funneling money towards a terrorist organization, but that's it.

Traitors, or patriots?

Businessmen. And dominating the Galaxy is a good business.

[The Governator]

Someguy101 wrote...

i aint givin anything back to him.

he funds a project to bring back to life, he gives me a crew, shows me where the best of the best can be found, and gives me a new and improved ship.

i repay him by stealing his ship, his people including miranda and jacob, giving the sensitive cerberus data to the alliance and blowing up the collector base.


felt good trolling TIM.

Yeah, I mean consider...TIM has his life thanks to Shepard.  He owes Shepard, not the other way around.  The Normandy is just a parting gift.

[Terraneaux]

DPSSOC wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
There are a few traitors who are funneling money towards a terrorist organization, but that's it.

Traitors, or patriots?

Traitors.  They're sending money to an organization which murders alliance soldiers.