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Laptops versus Full-Power Game Systems - Big Changes


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#1
Gorath Alpha

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              The laptop usability situation only got worse, for YEARS

The original discussion here predated the influence of the "Netbook" class of computing devices diluting the gaming quality of the laptop / notebook offerings in the marketplace.  The upper range of Netbooks was already close to an overlap in performance with the low-price mobile PCs, when the last major rewrite of this article was fresh, and many manufacturers were choosing to keep on using older, lower-priced chipsets in their laptops to keep their laptops' costs down.

Warning: change any seasonal gift purchase plans.  "Fusion" is almost here (see the end of the article).

Netbooks' video devices have heretofore all strictly ben onboard chips, and five or six months ago, almost all were using the outdated IGPs that Intel first offered about five years ago.   Too many current laptops with Intel chipsets are still using the same old-model IGPs that those netbooks do.  Within the last three years, Intel had finally started to include most of the features and functions that ATI and nVIDIA had been including in IGPs for the past 8-10 years.   Not that any of the IGPs from any of the three have truly been game-capable, just that it was possible to at least "preview" what a game might look like on such a chip.

The influence of $200-300 Netbooks extends also to causing a reduction in the numbers of laptops that would have included an actual, discrete, video card instead of an onboard video chip, because that adds quite a bit to the cost of a laptop, and the average cost of those offered has been lowered generally.  There are fewer laptops available for purchase that have real video cards in them. The top end of the smaller-sized laptops, the "notebook" models, are the ones being bypassed by the buyers of various "tablet" devices similar to the Apple product.

Cost-cutting has also affected the cooling capacity of those laptops that really do have video cards, but now many more of them get hot too quickly because the heat sinks are too small, and the cooling fans are too ineffectual.  Admittedly, there had already been a tendency on the part of laptop designers to shortchange the heat sink hardware, because it adds to the weight of the PC, and laptop designers are devoted to the gods of light weight and long battery life, both being elements heavily impacted by high performance add-on video cards.

The engineers at nVIDIA have been considering the Netbook and Smartphone devices as a better place for them to compete in than the general PC market, where AMD has a serious advantage in being able to integrate GPUs inside of the designs of their coming "Fusion" line of CPUs.  Their influence, if they earn a sizable share of the video in those markets, can only be good.  Almost anything other than what Intel is doing nearly has to be better. 

That isn't to say that Intel has been going backward graphically, but their low standard has been legendary, and any improvement at all is noticed.  Over the past year, many of their i3 / i5 video chip systems have been able to perform almost as well as the nVIDIA onboard graphics currently available, but right at this moment, the Geforce Mobile generation of Fermi GPUs is setting some amazing standards (although demanding better cooling than ever before).

AMD will soon be releasing Mobile versions of their "Fusion" series (2nd Q 2011), which should be extremely helpful to improving the laptop standards.  Intel has a new processor family they call "Sandy Bridge" in the wings, due out about the same time, or slightly after, the release of the AMD Fusion.  Instead of merely being a separate video chip riding inside the CPU package, it will be at least basically itegrated into their CPU, sharing the cache.  It promises to be as fast as the current AMD onboard chip, the HD 4200, but AMD will already have replaced that one before then. 
 
If all laptop makers adhered to the very same performance standards for add-on video, game developers would be more inclined to consider offering tech support to the laptop PCs,  but each designer seems to have his (or her) own standards for what level of performance degradation he / she will will apply in the name of battery life or total weight.  Compared to the ATI and nVIDIA reference designs, too few even follow the (typically 10 % reduction in performance compared to the matching desktop card version) recommended specifications.  The end result is variations of 10% more performance loss, to as much as a total of 30% dilution.
   
The potential improvements remain just potential.  Intel's laptop chipsets are cheap, familiar, and the average laptop buyer really doesn't care to pay extra for good video, so at least 95% of them have nothing better than an Intel video chip in them, making that 95% segment undesireable choices for game playing.

Wait until after New Year's before buying any mobile computing product with compromised video.  The Fusion APU is almost here.

Intel's Sandy Bridge is due this coming April or May, when the same basic low quality Intel video now riding along piggy back inside the processor package of the i3, i5, and i7, is entirely integrated in the next series of CPUs.  But "Fusion" is practically already here.

The AMD device combines a far more capable graphics capability, closely related to the Radeon HD 5n00 generation as an integrated function to their multi-core CPU, and the mobile versions are already in the (figurative) hands of Netbook, Notebook, and laptop manufacturers, with the PCs using them expected about the turn of the year or even sooner.  The desktop Fusion APUs are expected in February.

The latest news on a long-standing feud between Intel and nVIDIA over whether nVIDIA's contract with Intel included the right to design chipsets for the newer Intel CPUs was about to go into court, after six years of wrangling (when Core Duo was a mere embryo).  But both agreed to ask for a continuance because they were back in negotiations now.

The conjecture going around is that Intel wants to protect its dominant lock on the Netbook market, which the Fusion threatens, given its many times superior graphics.  nVIDIA's ION is a low-current device that offers almost-competitive graphics performance to the Fusion for games, and superior performance in some other areas.  Intel may hope to save a bigger part of their Netbook market if they can pair up ION and Atom at a good price, which right now, they cannot.

Why is this pertinent here?  Fusion is going to be available for standard laptops at a much smaller cost that discrete GPUs plus a CPU, and no one else is going to have anything for laptops that competes.  Private ownership of PCs is concentrated in laptops, not desktops.  Initially, the business grade, like an HD 5450, will probably be priced at almost what similar AMD processors without graphics have cost.  That will really put a dent, potentially, in nVIDIA's sales of chipsets for AMD processors, and for discrete cards like the G.210 Geforce.

Although pricing isn't being discussed yet, the presumption is that the difference between an APU with business graphics, and one with the equivilant of the HD 5570 graphics integrated will be relatively small compared to a card, probably less than $15 to the OEMs, translating to maybe $25 retail (my guess there).

THOSE APUs will run games such as ME2 without any separate GPU card, which is why it's significant to this article.

Gorath


Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 05 novembre 2011 - 05:04 .


#2
Guest_Maviarab_*

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Whilst an amzing post Gorath, was it really needed? we all know your knowledge, do you have to keep constantly spamming the forums with it, damn, your worse than J Witness....



And as for the topic, if anyone does 'not' know laptops are crap for gaming, then really, they shouldnt even be allowed near a game in the first place.

#3
Fredvdp

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Maviarab wrote...

And as for the topic, if anyone does 'not' know laptops are crap for gaming, then really, they shouldnt even be allowed near a game in the first place.

Sure, but someone needs to tell them first. ^_^

#4
Michel1986

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Well there are laptops with 2x GTX280, i dont call that crap. Also the processor whas I7 with 8GB ram. The same laptop can also use 2 ATI Mobility Radeons 5970

#5
Gorath Alpha

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The points made, for everyone besides Fred, are intended for noobs who simply don't know any better. This gives me a link to save and to point out to anyone, such as a someone wanting to use a 2.0 GHz Sempron and an HD 4200 for Mass Effect, and wondering why it doesn't work particularly well.

#6
archurban

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that's why damn mac users have no idea how they handle graphic for game. they think that macbook pro is enough. well, hell no. mac laptop graphic card is pretty much out of date (9600GT is high one). more than $2000 macbook pro has only 512MB graphic memory. $1999 one has only 256MB. with that price, you'd better have everything max out. Apple is wrong. they don't upgrade to core i5, i7 for laptop line. other PC makers had already done now. I have seen a lot of mac users who try to play game with macbook (only NVIDIA shared graphic card 9400M). they complain without no clue. what a pathetic. don't buy mac for gaming. mac is not for that purpose. but people don't know.

Modifié par archurban, 24 mars 2010 - 10:12 .


#7
JMC002

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"Laptops generally make poor game platforms"



I agree.

#8
JFRICH

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Just to be a Devils' Advocate...........There are some Laptops out there that handle ME2 as well as most mid level gaming desktops. Even a handful that can compete with a high end gaming machine.



Just my 2 penny's


#9
Gorath Alpha

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JFRICH wrote...

Just to be a Devils' Advocate...........There are some Laptops out there that handle ME2 as well as most mid level gaming desktops. Even a handful that can compete with a high end gaming machine.

No one has any problem admitting to a slim minority being available on order; the entire point is that few noobs will pay the cost, or even hold back on an impulse purchase long enough to recheck whether it's worth buying if some gaming is any kind of a potential use for it.  Overwhelmingly, the mass of portable systems just isn't game-capable.

Gorath
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#10
JFRICH

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Point Taken!!!!

#11
JMC002

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Laptop specs are almost always misleading (at best)

#12
Masticetobbacco

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so is it just the graphic card?



replace that and I get better performance?

#13
JMC002

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A big problem with trying to get what is nowadays regarded as high performance from a laptop is that neither it's battery nor it's mains dropper can supply sufficient current to drive modern high-end components.

#14
Gorath Alpha

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Masticetobbacco wrote...

so is it just the graphic card?

replace that and I get better performance?

I am certain that the main article tells you what the situation is, but in greater detail, here it.is:  I am guessing, but it is my estimate that about 90% of laptops only have the very basic, lowest cost option, onboard video solution.  TTBOMK, none made that way has ever offered any video upgrade route.  There simply isn't any "empty place" inside to put a separate circuit board into.

Another 8% of laptops have rather mundane business quality cards and production cards, in neither case, with sufficient performance and speed to be properly useful for gaming.  I doubt that 2% is small enough, but it's a convenient number.  That many have either a Mainline Gaming Level video card, a high end production card, or a High Level Gaming card.  Some laptops with those better real cards included might be upgradeable for video while still less than about two years old.  I'm betting it's no more than a quarter part of the "2%" guesstimate. 

Gorath
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#15
Miriel Amarinth

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JFRICH wrote...

Just to be a Devils' Advocate...........There are some Laptops out there that handle ME2 as well as most mid level gaming desktops. Even a handful that can compete with a high end gaming machine.


This is true, but people who buy high end gaming laptops tend to be the minority and - dare I say - not the kind of people who generally need education about their laptop's suitability for gaming. Which I think was kind of the point of the OP. :)

Still, the underlying problem with people trying to play high-end games on crappy laptops is the same as with people trying to play them on crappy desktop computers - they simply have no clue what their system is capable of and how their system specs measure up to the game's system requirements. That their system happens to be a laptop only increases the probability of their system being 'crappy' for gaming.

Sadly almost all standard laptops below a certain price-range are still sold without a dedicated gfx card, which means you can pretty much write them off for any high-end game released in the past x years.

#16
Gorath Alpha

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gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/asus-xg-station-is-worlds-first-external-laptop-graphics-card-226648.php

www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/06/06/amd_launches_xgp/

Incidentally, with regard to the ViDock, I checked some of the suggested retailers, and none seemed to have any in stock (I did dind some at Xotic PC), but they are still just USB there.  They want almost $800 for the Mac version at PC Mall.  That will buy a basic game system if you build it yourself, not including display, keyboard, mouse, and speakers. 

That's a different brand than one I found that was in stock a few places, last time the subject of an external video card docking device came up (there is a current thread on it at Dragon Age's tech forum).

Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 30 mars 2010 - 01:33 .


#17
JetB

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Well, my Asus G73 Notebook plays ME2 at the highest settings and 1920X1080 with flawless frame rates. No problems with heat during extended gaming either, and I don't use some stupid cooling device.



So no, all laptops are not made equally. Even gaming ones.



The people who need a portable gaming rig, need it because they travel away a lot and still want to game. And we know what kind of computer to buy.

#18
rpgplayer1

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Very good site to find out how good is your laptop graphics for handling games:

www.notebookcheck.net/Comparison-of-Graphic-Cards.130.0.html

Modifié par rpgplayer1, 30 mars 2010 - 12:23 .


#19
Gorath Alpha

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JetB wrote...

Well, my Asus G73 Notebook plays ME2 at the highest settings and 1920X1080 with flawless frame rates. No problems with heat during extended gaming either, and I don't use some stupid cooling device.

So no, all laptops are not made equally. Even gaming ones.

The people who need a portable gaming rig, need it because they travel away a lot and still want to game. And we know what kind of computer to buy.

I think that I included mention of owning a laptop, an eldely one now, but it handles my eMail fine when I travel, and keeps up respectably if I do some web surfing from a Motel room.  I have had some sort of mobile PC practically as long as they have been affordable (fifteen years, at least).  I've never tried to pretend my laptops could play any games of the types I've enjoyed. 

However, there are producers and retailers who will use the catch-phrase "Gaming System" describing almost anything at all, when that amounts to just so much lying and pie in the sky promises.  The percentage of desktop PCs sold without video cards has started going back up, and TTBOMK, the percentage of laptops without them never has stopped its upward trend. 

Gorath
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#20
Gorath Alpha

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"Newness is Meaningless" -- Really.  There's an article in the Dragon Age Tech Forum to provide details on the Basics, and for games, it is the GPU that counts more than anything, followed by the CPU, followed by the RAM, and in my opinion, after those three, the power supply is the fourth most important part. 

In the search, use the word "Basics".

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 07 octobre 2010 - 09:37 .


#21
FireStorm005

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What's with all the hate on laptops? I'm playing ME2 just fine on my HP DV9743cl with 2.0GHz Core2 duo, 3gigs of ram and a NVidia 8600M GS. I run it at 1440x900 (max res) motion blur and film grain off, everything else on, 3 cinematic lights and default anisotropic filtering. Maybe I'm just in the minority of people who do get laptops with good hardware.

#22
Gorath Alpha

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Exactly. 95 to 96% of the laptops sold are the cheaper ones with only Intel graphics, and of the remaining 4 - 5%, less than half include game-capable video adapters (and a huge part of that small number, proportionally, have inadequate cooling).

#23
archurban

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it is up to what how you need. for example, I love to play game if I have time. unfortunately I take a business trip a lot. so I usually have my laptop, and play games. it's great that I can still play games on the road. don't tell me what is what. it's all your choice. of course, my laptop has enough power to play 99% of games todays. it's Sony vaio F 16.4 inch, intel core i7 1.6 (turbo boost technology up 2.93), NVIDIA 330 GT 1GB, 6GB memory, 500GB HDD. I think that the spec is way enough to play games.

#24
SSV Enterprise

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The biggest problems with laptops is that the vast majority is non-upgradeable. A lot of computer-ignorant people buy laptops with integrated graphics before realizing that they are insufficient to play the majority of modern games. If they had a desktop, that problem could be easily rectified- simply buy a moderately powerful video card, and they're good to go. With laptops, however, they're locked into whatever graphical solution they have, and have to buy a whole new computer to play games.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:30 .


#25
Gorath Alpha

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Review copies of AMD's reference systems will be in the hands of reviewers, but carefully restricted by NDAs until the retail versions are ready to go.  We won't know one of the critical aspects of mobile gaming for another three weeks or more (after CES 2011, nothing more concrete than that, not yet).  How much heat will the new Mainline leve APUs generate? 

Everyone wants it to be less than has been the case for the pair of CPU plus discrete Mainline Gaming graphics card. 

I've been advising that holiday gift-giving that included any mobile computing devices, from Netbook on up, wait and see what Santa AMD wasn't able to have ready by Christmas. 

Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 29 décembre 2010 - 11:35 .