143 réponses à ce sujet

[Tellervo]

It really felt like, "And now we need some action... um...  Wait, I've got it!  Assassins!  And they're Crows!  Well, since that's done, let's all go have a few pints!"  Not like it was a purposeful thing, just sloppy.

[rak72]

Aye, we're the Crimson Oars, we'll cut out your eyes, and ****** in your skull!!

[ejoslin]

LOL! They would have been perfect!

[Lady Jess]

What confused ME was when I killed the crows, and looted the two nobles at the scene. Later I had to hold court and the witch I killed was friggin alive.

[Addai]

Master Ignacio is going to receive a strongly worded letter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hmmm I didn't get that. Apparently the taking noble hostages worked well.

[Gamejudge]

I knew I didn't imagine ignacio saying they wouldn't take out another contract on me!

[qalan]

I can think of 2 fairly plausible explanations off the top of my head:

1) They were members of Taliesen's cell and thus still bound to complete the original contact on the Warden and working for Bann Whatshername fell in with their plans.

2) Something happened between the end of DAO and the beginning of DAA that made one/more of the Crow masters (Ignacio can hardly be expected to speak for them all) reconsider your 'immunity'.  For all we know, it may even why Zevran is not with you at the start of DAA (that is if he chose to stay on as friend/lover at the end of DAO), because he's gone to Antiva to sort things out...

[ejoslin]

Number 1, no. Taliesen is dead. His cell, no more. Even Zevran acknowledges after the fight that even he is safe, at least for awhile, because the Crows will assume that he sided with Taliesen and died.

Number 2, no. It was Ignacio's supervisors that said no more crows would come after the warden. This was from above Ignacio.  Of course, Ignacio could have been lying.

Speaking hypothetically, the Crows being after Zevran is not the same as the Crows being after the Warden.

In Awakenings they hire the Crows. Even if you didn't do the trial of the crows, if you ever had Zevran and Alistair run around with you, you know there's zero chance that any other crow would go after the Warden Commander. They did not even want to go after a Grey Warden recruit. Unless Zevran was lying.

I just don't see ANY way to get around the Alistair/Zevran dialogs. Zevran got the bid because no one else would go up against a Grey Warden, recruit or no. Zevran did it not because he thought he could win, but because he thought he would die.

Crimson Oars would have been a far better choice for assassins!

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 02:45 .

[Walina]

ejoslin wrote...

 The noblewoman who hired the Antivan Crows -- how did that happen?  In Origins, only one Crow would even consider going after the wardens, and that was to try and commit suicide.  It was considered unwise to go after grey warden recruits!  And now you have someone willing to go after the Warden Commander?  

Of course, if you finished the Crow quest line, you're assured that they will never accept another contract on you.  I suppose that could be written off as a lie, but it still remains that going after even grey warden recruits is considered unwise.  

Edit: And I doubt she had as many resources as Loghain did.  *sigh* It's the little details that bug me more than anything I suppose.

It's possible that's a contradiction / flaw of the story.

Example : darkspawn normally are fromm the broodmother but! As far as I know if you are a dalish elf you will meet an old acquitance who has been turned into a darkspawn!

Number 2, no. It was Ignacio's supervisors that said no more crows
would come after the warden. This was from above Ignacio.  Of course,
Ignacio could have been lying.

This was a side quest so it probably possible that Bioware didn't cared to carried it oved the expansion since it doesn't appear on the epilogue in origin ending.

Modifié par Walina, 19 mars 2010 - 02:53 .

[qalan]

ejoslin wrote...

Number 1, no. Taliesen is dead. His cell, no more.

That's an assumption on your part.  No where is it stated in the game that is so.  In fact, Ignacio leaves the possibility open that they're not all dead.  In the post Trial of Crows dialogue, if you ask why the Crows came after you in the first place, part of his answer runs as follows:
"...Taliesen had accepted a contract.  Even now, until you kill of all of Taliesen's men you will have to fight my brothers.  We never cancel a contract once accepted." (my bolds).

Please note, this is after you killed Taliesen and at the same time Ignacio says the Crows will be accepting no new contracts on you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ignacio said that the Crows won't accept contracts on the Warden during the Blight. He didn't say anything about post-blight. At least that can be a possible explanation.

[qalan]

Walina wrote...
Example : darkspawn normally are fromm the broodmother but! As far as I know if you are a dalish elf you will meet an old acquitance who has been turned into a darkspawn!

I believe Tamlin is technically a ghoul at that point, rather than a full-fledged darkspawn...

[Andros_Hanarak]

qalan wrote...

I can think of 2 fairly plausible explanations off the top of my head:

1) They were members of Taliesen's cell and thus still bound to complete the original contact on the Warden and working for Bann Whatshername fell in with their plans.

2) Something happened between the end of DAO and the beginning of DAA that made one/more of the Crow masters (Ignacio can hardly be expected to speak for them all) reconsider your 'immunity'.  For all we know, it may even why Zevran is not with you at the start of DAA (that is if he chose to stay on as friend/lover at the end of DAO), because he's gone to Antiva to sort things out...

If I remember correctly Ignacio tells you that the Crows wont take any new contracts on you but if there were still any crows alive from Taliesen's cell those would still hunt you down. 'Till death do us apart, I guess.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ignacio said that the Crows won't accept contracts on the Warden during the Blight. He didn't say anything about post-blight. At least that can be a possible explanation.

You force me to pull out the toolkit!

Ignacio: My superiors want me to convey their thanks. The Crows aren't accepting any new contracts on you.
Ignacio: And when this Blight ends, we'd love you to visit Antiva to discuss other... opportunities.

Edit: And with Taliesen dead, I would imagine that if he had any men remaining they would be assigned to other cells.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 03:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I killed Master Ignacio.. does that mean they SHOULD be going after me?..

[qalan]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: And with Taliesen dead, I would imagine that if he had any men remaining they would be assigned to other cells.

Again, that's an assumption on your part and not a fact or part of an established continuity (which is what you claim was being violated).  And again I point out it tends to contradict Ignacio's warning that "until you kill of all of Taliesen's men you will have to fight my brothers."

Modifié par qalan, 19 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[ejoslin]

It means they should have hired the Crimson Oars to prevent inconsistencies! Besides, the main reason I say it makes no sense that the Crows would be there are based on the dialogs between Alistair and Zevran; even if Zevran was killed at first, that doesn't change the story behind what is said between them about it. You just never learn about it.

[ejoslin]

qalan, what happened to Taliesen's cell when he died? THAT is not an assumption.  Do you think if there are any men left (BIG if, he had a lot with him when he does the second confrontation) that they're not assigned to other masters?  He dies no matter what. And as soon as he dies, his men are no longer "Taliesen's men."  And no other master is going to take that contract. That ALSO is not an assumption. No one would take it when the warden was a recruit because it's considered impolitic; someone would change their mind and take it when they're warden commander?

Edit: I'm not trying to be stubborn on this. It seriously makes no sense.  It's a plot hole.  Is it a serious one? No, but it IS an inconsistency between the two games, and it IS immersion breaking when you have to think up excuses why it COULD happen even though it goes against things in Origins.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[qalan]

ejoslin - I don't know what happened to Taliesen's cell when he died, and my point was - neither do you.  You assumed it was dissolved when nothing in the continuity says that's the case.  What I do know is that Ignacio openly and specifically warns you [edit - the Warden] of an ongoing threat from Taliesen's men after Taliesen is dead, which, in my view, provides a prefectly good basis for continuing Crow attacks within that continuity...

Modifié par qalan, 19 mars 2010 - 03:49 .

[ejoslin]

No he does NOT. That conversation happens before the Landsmeet, at least it USUALLY does. You may do the conversation later, I suppose. But it always happens in my game well before the Taliesen encounter. Can you still even be hired by Ignacio after the Landsmeet is called?

I suppose maybe you can. Just like, if you want your elf to be with Alistair at the end and don't want to harden him and want him to be king, you just wait to turn on the romance until after the Landsmeet is finished.

Edit: The thing is, you can get that conversation with Ignacio as soon as you meet Zevran and go to Denerim.  It's not a late game thing -- it's a mid-game thing.  If you choose to put it off until after the Landsmeet is called, I suppose that's a choice, but it never even occurred to me that people do that. 

And i took out an edit or two. I think it's past my bedtime!

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 04:47 .

[Addai]

qalan wrote...

ejoslin - I don't know what happened to Taliesen's cell when he died, and my point was - neither do you.  You assumed it was dissolved when nothing in the continuity says that's the case.  What I do know is that Ignacio openly and specifically warns you [edit - the Warden] of an ongoing threat from Taliesen's men after Taliesen is dead, which, in my view, provides a prefectly good basis for continuing Crow attacks within that continuity...

Why are you assuming that this happens after Taliesin is dead?  You can finish Trial of Crows quite early in the game if you want.  I've never had it going after the confrontation with T.

Edit to add:  Taliesin's contract came from Howe.  It's been paid for already.  If the nobles are paying for a contract that was already paid for, they're idiots.  Well, that's pretty much a given anyway, since they're trying to kill the Warden.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2010 - 04:19 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

qalan wrote...

ejoslin - I don't know what happened to Taliesen's cell when he died, and my point was - neither do you.  You assumed it was dissolved when nothing in the continuity says that's the case.  What I do know is that Ignacio openly and specifically warns you [edit - the Warden] of an ongoing threat from Taliesen's men after Taliesen is dead, which, in my view, provides a prefectly good basis for continuing Crow attacks within that continuity...

Why are you assuming that this happens after Taliesin is dead?  You can finish Trial of Crows quite early in the game if you want.  I've never had it going after the confrontation with T.

Edit to add:  Taliesin's contract came from Howe.  It's been paid for already.  If the nobles are paying for a contract that was already paid for, they're idiots.  Well, that's pretty much a given anyway, since they're trying to kill the Warden.

Actually, Ignacio is talking in that particular conversation as if Taliesen is alive. He says, among other things, that Zevran is Taliesen's responsibility.  You can probably pick up the quest late, but just from the way the conversation goes, it doesn't seem to be intended to be started that late.

Edit: Addai67, I do it early as well.  I like minimizing my trips to Orzammar for sure.  And yes, agree with you about the nobles.

It's not a terrible thing that there's a plot hole. There are many inconsistencies, really, between the two games.  This was a rant of mine -- but a relatively unimportant point.  More like a WTF moment is all.

Maybe I'm more sad that I got Antivan boots from one of the crows.  Is it too soon to put in another Crimson Oars joke?  Ok, I'm sad it wasn't the White Falcons! (isn't that the name of the other mercenary company who thought they were tougher than the warden?)

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 04:34 .

[qalan]

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, Ignacio is talking in that particular conversation as if Taliesen is alive. He says, among other things, that Zevran is Taliesen's responsibility.  You can probably pick up the quest late, but just from the way the conversation goes, it doesn't seem to be intended to be started that late.

That conversation is your first conversation with Ignacio (tree starts with "You're here about a note?").  It does not contain the line I'm referring to.  Using the toolset, the only place I find the "until you kill all of Taliesen's men you will still have to fight my brothers line" is during your last meeting with Ignacio - "I heard there was a scuffle in the back alleys..." tree (under the 'who contracted all the assassinations?" sub-tree).

Addai67 wrote...

Why are you assuming that this happens after Taliesin is dead?  You can finish Trial of Crows quite early in the game if you want.  I've never had it going after the confrontation with T.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just noting Ignacio says:"until you kill all of Taliesen's men you will still have to fight my brothers"  (again, my bold) .  He doesn't say (for instance) "until you kill Taliesen".  To me, that leaves open  the possibility that someof Taliesen's men are still gunning for the Warden even after the back
alley post-Landsmeet incident, because we have no way of knowing (one way or the other) whether that attack did indeed employ all of Taliesen's men...

Regardless of when exactly you complete the Trial of Crows, it's the last time you speak to Ignacio - and also the time when he tells you the Crows are accepting no new contacts on you.  So, to me, if you're going to use that conversation to argue that the Crows aren't taking any new contracts on the Warden, the statement that there
are still Crows targeting the Warden under the terms of Taliesen's original contact is equally valid.
Point is you see it as a 'plot hole' - I don't.  I guess we agree to disagree!

Modifié par qalan, 19 mars 2010 - 04:55 .

[ejoslin]

qalan wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, Ignacio is talking in that particular conversation as if Taliesen is alive. He says, among other things, that Zevran is Taliesen's responsibility.  You can probably pick up the quest late, but just from the way the conversation goes, it doesn't seem to be intended to be started that late.

That conversation is your first conversation with Ignacio (tree starts with "You're here about a note?").  It does not contain the line I'm referring to.  Using the toolset, the only place I find the "until you kill all of Taliesen's men you will still have to fight my brothers line" is during your last meeting with Ignacio - "I heard there was a scuffle in the back alleys..." tree (under the 'who contracted all the assassinations?" sub-tree).

Addai67 wrote...

Why are you assuming that this happens after Taliesin is dead?  You can finish Trial of Crows quite early in the game if you want.  I've never had it going after the confrontation with T.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just noting Ignacio says:"until you kill all of Taliesen's men you will still have to fight my brothers"  (again, my bold) .  He doesn't say (for instance) "until you kill Taliesen".  To me, that leaves open  the possibility that someof Taliesen's men are still gunning for the Warden even after the back
alley post-Landsmeet incident, because we have no way of knowing (one way or the other) whether that attack did indeed employ all of Taliesen's men...

Regardless of when exactly you complete the Trial of Crows, it's the last time you speak to Ignacio - and also the time when he tells you the Crows are accepting no new contacts on you.  So, to me, if you're going to use that conversation to argue that the Crows aren't taking any new contracts on the Warden, the statement that there
are still Crows targeting the Warden under the terms of Taliesen's original contact is equally valid.
Point is you see it as a 'plot hole' - I don't.  I guess we agree to disagree!

I still get that conversation WAY before Taliesen dies.  He's pretty good, though, if he's able to keep his men on a suicide mission that killed him and his best man after he's dead.  That's HUGE loyalty.

Doesn't matter. The nobles PAID for a new contract.  The crows seem to have accepted said new contract after they said they wouldn't.

So yes, I definitely think we need to agree to disagree. 

Edit: But I think the Crows conversation is actually not that relevant.

It's the dialogs between Zevran and Alistair which are FAR more telling.  Have you seen them?  I keep repeating myself on this.  But a year earlier, no crow would even consider going against a grey warden RECRUIT because it was considered stupid.  Zevran took it because he wanted to kill himself.  And suddenly, and experienced crow would go after the Grey Warden Commander?  Whom the crows had decided made a better friend than enemy?

Silly.  Seriously silly.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 05:09 .