143 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft]

Each Antivan Crow master decides on their own whether to accept a contract. All Ignacio can guarantee is that no Antivan Crow cell will get any help from other Antivan Crows if they accept the contract on your head.

[ejoslin]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Each Antivan Crow master decides on their own whether to accept a contract. All Ignacio can guarantee is that no Antivan Crow cell will get any help from other Antivan Crows if they accept the contract on your head.

At the end he says his supervisors say the crows will accept no further contracts.

However, it's irrelevant.  Did anyone see the dialogs between Zevran and Alistair?  No crow would accept a contract on a Grey Warden recruit because it's considered stupid.  The only one who did was trying to kill himself.  And since the crows only allow people to take contracts who have a chance at succeeding at them, it would have to be a seriously good and experienced crow who would be allowed to take that contract.  And they all refused!  Against a recruit.  So they're willing to go after the Grey Warden Commander now?

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 05:10 .

[Yurok1980]

Perhaps the nobles had contacted the Crows to talk about a hit, and did not give them information as to who the target would be before the meeting. We were technically ambushing them at a secret meeting, so perhaps the Crows just hadn't been given the opportunity to refuse yet? If a group comes in with swords flashing, you can bet the Crows are going to fight back, especially having no idea that they are fighting Grey Wardens.

[Behindyounow]

You think the crows aren't above lying?

[Yurok1980]

I'm not sure there's enough coin to incite the Crows to accept another contract, not just on *a* Grey Warden, but on the Grey Warden Commander of Ferelden in particular, especially given the history they have, and the fact that the Warden-Commander is the known slayer of the Archdemon. I definitely don't think the Crows are always truthful, but I also think they know a bad deal when they see one.

[UnDutchable]

Behindyounow wrote...

You think the crows aren't above lying?

That would be a really lame excuse.

And anyway, the reason Ignacio says the Crows won't take any more contracts on you is because they've decided you're more valuable as an ally. They know that if they send more assassins after you, they'll just lose them; you've proven yourself a formidable foe and taking more contracts on you would just be a waste of manpower.

This was when you were still only the leader of a small band of ragtag adventurers. Now you're the Grey Warden Commander of Ferelden, friend of the King/Queen, and in charge of a fortress and an entire arling. They didn't want to get on your bad side back when you were still a nobody, so why would they now? I find it hard to believe that a couple of angry nobles who supported the wrong man in a civil war would be considered more valuable allies than the goddamn Hero of Ferelden and Slayer of Archdemons.

[Behindyounow]

They're scumbag assassins. Do you honestly expect them to keep to their word if theres money to be made? I know I wouldn't in their shoes.

[Tahleron1]

awakenings is the story of an orlesian warden who can be replaced by your origins character, it's pretty obvious in nearly every way

[Sabriana]

UnDutchable wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

You think the crows aren't above lying?

That would be a really lame excuse.

And anyway, the reason Ignacio says the Crows won't take any more contracts on you is because they've decided you're more valuable as an ally. They know that if they send more assassins after you, they'll just lose them; you've proven yourself a formidable foe and taking more contracts on you would just be a waste of manpower.

This was when you were still only the leader of a small band of ragtag adventurers. Now you're the Grey Warden Commander of Ferelden, friend of the King/Queen, and in charge of a fortress and an entire arling. They didn't want to get on your bad side back when you were still a nobody, so why would they now? I find it hard to believe that a couple of angry nobles who supported the wrong man in a civil war would be considered more valuable allies than the goddamn Hero of Ferelden and Slayer of Archdemons.

I agree with you, UnDutchable.

Oh boy. That really is stupid. After all, the Crows are not a slimy little guild, they're practically running Antiva. It is said in the codex that they wield more power than the ruling Monarch. It is indeed very impolitic to accept a contract on the
GW Commander of Ferelden. The Crows can't possibly be that stupid. Going against the Commander of the GWs could indeed be political suicide. It would likely have repercussions from the Ferelden ruler, and if the Commander is an Orlesian warden, it also could have repercussions from the Orlesian powers.

The Zevran/Alistair conversation, and the conversations with Ignacio make it quite clear that accepting a contract on a Grey Warden is considered stupid.
Ignacio: "That's a contract I would never take, hrmph"

In DA:O, it is made clear that no one even bid on the contract until a suicidal elf came along. Even though it must have been a highly lucrative contract, according to Zevran's answer to the GW's question about how much he was paid.
In the original game there were 'swords for hire' all over the place who were not Crows. Leliana's would be assassin, the Crimson Oars, the White Something-or-others for example. Why not use them?

[Zachriel]

Tahleron1 wrote...

awakenings is the story of an orlesian warden who can be replaced by your origins character, it's pretty obvious in nearly every way

You know, I haven't even played Awakenings yet and the above statement seems to contain a great deal of truth.  I don't care about spoilers, and I won't have access to my PC for a couple of days, so I've been reading various posts about Awakenings here to see what other players think of it.  I've seen posts about how romantic interests from Origins are barely acknowledged in Awakenings, about some Awakenings epilogues are not consistent with choices you made in Origins, how some side quests don't make a lot of sense given your status in the world, how Ogrhen's motivation for joining you is questionable given the fact that he supposedly settled down, and now how the Crows have decided to take up another suicidal contract against you.  Reading all of this, I can't help but come to the conclusion that when Awakenings was written, it was done under the assumption that the protagonist in Origins did not survive the battle with the Archdemon.  It sounds as though all the writing for imported characters was done at the last second.

Of course, this is purely speculation on my part as I haven't even played Awakenings yet and even if I had, I have no way of knowing for sure what kinds of decisions were made about the writing.  Let me ask this, though.  If you don't import a character but instead play Awakenings as a brand new Warden, how does the story compare?  Is it more consistent, at least?

[TheComfyCat]

Zachriel wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

awakenings is the story of an orlesian warden who can be replaced by your origins character, it's pretty obvious in nearly every way

You know, I haven't even played Awakenings yet and the above statement seems to contain a great deal of truth.  I don't care about spoilers, and I won't have access to my PC for a couple of days, so I've been reading various posts about Awakenings here to see what other players think of it.  I've seen posts about how romantic interests from Origins are barely acknowledged in Awakenings, about some Awakenings epilogues are not consistent with choices you made in Origins, how some side quests don't make a lot of sense given your status in the world, how Ogrhen's motivation for joining you is questionable given the fact that he supposedly settled down, and now how the Crows have decided to take up another suicidal contract against you.  Reading all of this, I can't help but come to the conclusion that when Awakenings was written, it was done under the assumption that the protagonist in Origins did not survive the battle with the Archdemon.  It sounds as though all the writing for imported characters was done at the last second.

Of course, this is purely speculation on my part as I haven't even played Awakenings yet and even if I had, I have no way of knowing for sure what kinds of decisions were made about the writing.  Let me ask this, though.  If you don't import a character but instead play Awakenings as a brand new Warden, how does the story compare?  Is it more consistent, at least?

Yes, I think you'll probably have a better experience playing as an Orlesian Warden... the continuity is generally pretty bad for imported PCs from DA:O.

[Yurok1980]

Even if your character died at the end of the original game, you can import them to play through Awakening.

[ejoslin]

I think I would have enjoyed the game more as an Orlesean Warden, but still, the inconsistencies would still bug me. Some of my choices WERE acknowledged, but they were choices I didn't care much about, and seemed tacked on.



Things like the Crows, though, even with an Orlesean Warden, I don't see why it would suddenly NOT be considered stupid to accept a contract against a Grey Warden, much less the Warden Commander of Ferelden.



Things like the Joining also bugged me, but that's another thread entirely!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Should it really come as a surprise that a guild of assassins back down on their word?

[ejoslin]

EmperorSahlertz, that is NOT the only problem with the Crows going after the warden. I'll copy and paste the same point YET AGAIN.

From a post of mine on this page:

However, it's irrelevant. Did anyone see the dialogs between Zevran and Alistair? No crow would accept a contract on a Grey Warden recruit because it's considered stupid. The only one who did was trying to kill himself. And since the crows only allow people to take contracts who have a chance at succeeding at them, it would have to be a seriously good and experienced crow who would be allowed to take that contract. And they all refused! Against a recruit. So they're willing to go after the Grey Warden Commander now?

There are other posts on this page and before as well that talk about this.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 11:41 .

[Behindyounow]

Meh. Maybe the Nobles pooled their money to put up an even higher price than Loghain did?

[ejoslin]

Behindyounow wrote...

Meh. Maybe the Nobles pooled their money to put up an even higher price than Loghain did?

A grey warden recruit with almost no allies and power, impolitic -- no one would take the contract except Zevran.  The warden commander, savior of the country, friend to the ruler, one who had already survived two attempts on their life after winning spectacularly, somehow someone who wouldn't take it before is happy to take it now?  I can't believe that the crows would even accept that contract.

Though I'm beginning to understand why the writers didn't concern themselves with these details.

[Behindyounow]

They're greasy assassins. If they got payed enough they'd probably do it. Of course, ' enough' would have to be a lot.

[Walina]

I just finised my second playthrough and Zevran told my pc that Crows will come to kill him one day or sooner.

[ejoslin]

Behindyounow wrote...

They're greasy assassins. If they got payed enough they'd probably do it. Of course, ' enough' would have to be a lot.

NO one would accept it the first time except Zevran.  Who was trying to kill himself.  Because it's considered stupid.  Against grey warden RECRUITS.

You have to run around with Zevran and Alistair in your party to get this.  Here's the lines:

Alistair: Were there many who wanted the contract?
Zevran: None. You are still Grey Wardens, after all, and even in Antiva, killing members of your order is considered... impolitic. It made the guild's decision considerably easier, I imagine.


As I said, I really do understand why the writers didn't bother themselves about this.  Apparently, despite EVERYTHING that is said in Origins about it, people discount it.  /shrug.

Edit: There's more to the conversations than this, but it makes it pretty clear that no one was willing to take on a grey warden recruit with no allies, and no political power, even with the full backing of the Ferelden monarchy.  So now someone will go after the Warden Commander?

Second edit: I did some major cutting and just left in two lines from the conversation.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 12:10 .

[Behindyounow]

Those conversations made it seem like the Crows dont take on Grey Wardens due to political reasons, which I'm sure they couldn't care less about if they were payed enough.

[ejoslin]

Behindyounow wrote...

Those conversations made it seem like the Crows dont take on Grey Wardens due to political reasons, which I'm sure they couldn't care less about if they were payed enough.

impolitic means something different than what you think it does.  

Edit: to save you the trouble, it means unwise.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 12:10 .

[Behindyounow]

Unwise =/= They're too strong for us to kill.

[UnDutchable]

The Crows coming after Zevran makes sense, since he's made an embarrassment of their organization by escaping.

The Crows coming after the PC makes no sense, unless the assassins in Awakening were rogue members working on their own without the guildmaster knowing it - in which case, they've got some more employees on the loose. Sloppy.

In any case, it seems unlikely the nobles could gather a sufficiently large amount of money to convince the Crows to take on such a difficult contract - after all, they spend most of their screentime in Awakenings b*tching about how their prospects were ruined because of Howe's death, right? And even if they did manage to get so much money, it still doesn't make any sense that the Crows would take the contract. That assassins' guild pretty much runs Antiva and they're usually hired by merchant princes, so I'm guessing they're not exactly short on money. Furthermore, the PC is a stronger ally than some upstart nobles, since the PC has the ear of Ferelden's ruler and the love of the people. Heck, if the Crows were desperate for money, all they'd have to do is go up to the PC and say, "Hey, we've got some offers to assassinate you. We'll give you their names in exchange for some shiny coins." The nobles would get executed, the Crows would get money, and they'd be even closer allies with the PC. Heck, if they played it really smart, they could convince the PC to give the guild the nobles' lands and estates in reward. Even more money!

... I spent too much time thinking about how assassins work. >__>;

[ejoslin]

Behindyounow wrote...

Unwise =/= They're too strong for us to kill.

The warden already proved that in the first game.  

Like I said, you have to do some serious rationalizing to figure that everything that happened and was said about the crows in the first game means anything OTHER than no one wanted to go after a grey warden recruit with no power and few allies.  The conversations between Alistair and Zevran where no one wants to go after a grey warden, the conversations with Ignacio (if you had them).  

The thing is, you learn from talking to Zevran that the crows are willing to go after just about anyone, including kings and queens.  It's just the Grey Wardens that it is considered unwise.  Even if they're a couple of recruits with zero backing.

I guess my wardens are a bit more badass as Warden Commander than as recruits.