143 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

UnDutchable wrote...

The Crows coming after Zevran makes sense, since he's made an embarrassment of their organization by escaping.
The Crows coming after the PC makes no sense, unless the assassins in Awakening were rogue members working on their own without the guildmaster knowing it - in which case, they've got some more employees on the loose. Sloppy.
In any case, it seems unlikely the nobles could gather a sufficiently large amount of money to convince the Crows to take on such a difficult contract - after all, they spend most of their screentime in Awakenings b*tching about how their prospects were ruined because of Howe's death, right? And even if they did manage to get so much money, it still doesn't make any sense that the Crows would take the contract. That assassins' guild pretty much runs Antiva and they're usually hired by merchant princes, so I'm guessing they're not exactly short on money. Furthermore, the PC is a stronger ally than some upstart nobles, since the PC has the ear of Ferelden's ruler and the love of the people. Heck, if the Crows were desperate for money, all they'd have to do is go up to the PC and say, "Hey, we've got some offers to assassinate you. We'll give you their names in exchange for some shiny coins." The nobles would get executed, the Crows would get money, and they'd be even closer allies with the PC. Heck, if they played it really smart, they could convince the PC to give the guild the nobles' lands and estates in reward. Even more money!
... I spent too much time thinking about how assassins work. >__>;

I like how you think, yes I could totally seeing Crows do this rather than accepting a suicidal mission.  Zev I can see why he took it cause he was trying to commit death by Gray Warden but any other Crow...I'd turn it into an opportunity just like this. Would that make me a poor assassin or just a smart little backstabber?

[Sabriana]

sylvanaerie wrote...

UnDutchable wrote...

The Crows coming after Zevran makes sense, since he's made an embarrassment of their organization by escaping.
The Crows coming after the PC makes no sense, unless the assassins in Awakening were rogue members working on their own without the guildmaster knowing it - in which case, they've got some more employees on the loose. Sloppy.
In any case, it seems unlikely the nobles could gather a sufficiently large amount of money to convince the Crows to take on such a difficult contract - after all, they spend most of their screentime in Awakenings b*tching about how their prospects were ruined because of Howe's death, right? And even if they did manage to get so much money, it still doesn't make any sense that the Crows would take the contract. That assassins' guild pretty much runs Antiva and they're usually hired by merchant princes, so I'm guessing they're not exactly short on money. Furthermore, the PC is a stronger ally than some upstart nobles, since the PC has the ear of Ferelden's ruler and the love of the people. Heck, if the Crows were desperate for money, all they'd have to do is go up to the PC and say, "Hey, we've got some offers to assassinate you. We'll give you their names in exchange for some shiny coins." The nobles would get executed, the Crows would get money, and they'd be even closer allies with the PC. Heck, if they played it really smart, they could convince the PC to give the guild the nobles' lands and estates in reward. Even more money!
... I spent too much time thinking about how assassins work. >__>;

I like how you think, yes I could totally seeing Crows do this rather than accepting a suicidal mission.  Zev I can see why he took it cause he was trying to commit death by Gray Warden but any other Crow...I'd turn it into an opportunity just like this. Would that make me a poor assassin or just a smart little backstabber?

Yes, indeed, you are a smart backstabber, Sylvanaerie, smart move in doing what's best for your organization, which happens to be the true ruler in Antiva.

The Crows aren't some dumb street-gang, they are the powers that be in Antiva. I don't think being stupid would get them that far. They work for profit, and money talks. The Crows were hesitant accepting a contract on two green-behind-the-ears Grey Wardens, and got burned twice. Zevran failed (although that's what he wanted), and then later on Taliesen also fails. Where is the logic in them now happily accepting a contract to go after the Warden Commander?

The reward for the Crows is far greater for siding with the GW, than against her/him. It would give them more power to have the PC look on them favorably, while it might be political suicide to go against the Grey Wardens, especially a Grey Warden commander.

Modifié par Sabriana, 19 mars 2010 - 03:45 .

[Addai]

Behindyounow wrote...

You think the crows aren't above lying?

Ignacio tells you that they didn't get to the position they are in by not honoring their word.

They're "scumbag assassins," but they're smart scumbag assassins.  Taking on a Grey Warden recruit wasn't smart, but they went ahead with it because there was ONE suicidal Crow who was willing to do the job, and a master who was willing to come after that Crow partly out of personal interest ("when I heard that the mighty Zevran had gone rogue, I had to see this for myself").

Now a few nobles down on their luck are able to scrape together enough coin to make the Crows take an assignment that is far more difficult than the one they were hesitant to take before?  I don't think so.  This could have been a much more interesting plot development if there was a group of up-and-coming assassins who were competing with the Crows for contracts in Ferelden.

[Rhinna]

I believe that Ignacio says no new contracts will be accepted against the Grey Warden.  If I remember correctly, a contract cannot be cancelled, and once accepted MUST be fulfilled.  Ignacio did warn the GW that there was still an open contract out on them, and he was sorry, nothing could be done about that.

So...Zevran failed, Taliesin failed...that means in theory the contract is still open.  That would explain the Crows at the farm with Lord Guy and Lady whatsherface :-)

[Addai]

Rhinna wrote...

I believe that Ignacio says no new contracts will be accepted against the Grey Warden.  If I remember correctly, a contract cannot be cancelled, and once accepted MUST be fulfilled.  Ignacio did warn the GW that there was still an open contract out on them, and he was sorry, nothing could be done about that.

So...Zevran failed, Taliesin failed...that means in theory the contract is still open.  That would explain the Crows at the farm with Lord Guy and Lady whatsherface :-)

The contract was Taliesin's.  Even IF, in theory, there are still some of Taliesin's men in Ferelden trying to carry out the original contract, why do the nobles figure in at all?

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2010 - 04:04 .

[ejoslin]

Rhinna wrote...

I believe that Ignacio says no new contracts will be accepted against the Grey Warden.  If I remember correctly, a contract cannot be cancelled, and once accepted MUST be fulfilled.  Ignacio did warn the GW that there was still an open contract out on them, and he was sorry, nothing could be done about that.

So...Zevran failed, Taliesin failed...that means in theory the contract is still open.  That would explain the Crows at the farm with Lord Guy and Lady whatsherface :-)

He does.  BUT!  Taliesen was killed.  It seems likely that if any of his men remained, they would be assigned to a new master.  Ignacio also said that other crows would not help Taliesen fulfill the contract.  And no one else had been willing to take that contract.

Besides.  Howe is dead.  Loghain is dead.  Taliesen is dead.  The Crows high up have decided that the Warden makes a better friend than enemy.  Even if the contract were with the monarchy of Ferelden instead of Howe/Loghain, ummm, Alistair/Anora is on the Warden's side.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 mars 2010 - 04:04 .

[Sabriana]

The original contract was put out by Howe (who is dead) and Loghain (who is either dead too, or a GW himself) was listed as some sort of co-signer. Technically yes, the contract remains open, but the owner of the contract is also dead (Taliesen). If the Crows are smart, and they would have to be, else they wouldn't be in such a position of power, they'd just let sleeping dogs lie.

The contract on the Commander was a new one, something that is highly illogical, given the information we as players gleaned from the original game. Aside from that, as was said before, in the original game it was also stated that the contract on the two new GWs was very expensive. How much more expensive would a contract on a GW Commander be? Where do those nobles got the money from? Everything should be still in disarray due to the recent Blight. And iirc, Howe had little money by the end-game. Weren't there angry merchants perma-camped at his estate in Denerim, asking for their money? If the arl is too poor to pay merchants, it's almost a certainty that his vassals don't have much money either.

[Rhinna]

True, but that is the only explanation I can think of. The other is...perhaps this was an initial meeting with the Crow assassins, who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

*as an aside* There is SO much in that expansion that Zevran could have been a part of - there are reminders of him everywhere - the Crow heraldry you can buy for your shield - the times where his opinion would have come in handy, the Crow assassins, and even the mysterious "Dark Wolf" meh...the sequel better make up for it!

Modifié par Rhinna, 19 mars 2010 - 04:16 .

[Addai]

At the very least, some additional explanation is needed. By now the Crows know, if you have kept Zevran around, that you're protecting one of their runaways. So maybe they have decided they have no choice but to keep throwing their men away on trying to kill you. In which case, they should sell out their Fereldan franchise to the Orlesian bards, because they've beclowned themselves completely and cannot be taken seriously outside of Antiva.

[Sabriana]

Addai67 wrote...

At the very least, some additional explanation is needed. By now the Crows know, if you have kept Zevran around, that you're protecting one of their runaways. So maybe they have decided they have no choice but to keep throwing their men away on trying to kill you. In which case, they should sell out their Fereldan franchise to the Orlesian bards, because they've beclowned themselves completely and cannot be taken seriously outside of Antiva.

Right. They are losing their reputation pretty steadily in that case, and who knows what impications that would have in Antiva as well.
Let's see.
They're po'ing the Grey Wardens (everywhere).
They're po'ing the Orlesian ruler, if the GW is from Orlais. Don't the GWs hang out in Celene's court?
They're po'ing the ruler of Ferelden.
So yeah. Quite stupid. I wonder how they managed to rise to such a power-house in Antiva? Maybe all Antivans are really dumb, or something.

[LobselVith8]

Was Taliesen the Master, though? I never got that impression from Zevran's story, since they both went on a mission for a Master and lied about what really happened.

[ejoslin]

Holy necro thread! And no, it's never clear if Taliesen is a master (my guess is he is not). However, Taliesen IS mentioned by name -- that until he and his men are all dead, there's nothing Ignacio can do.  But Taliesen ends up dead.

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 mars 2011 - 10:59 .

[LobselVith8]

I'm a mage, what can I say? I remember the line, but it seemed like Taliesan was in charge of the team currently in Ferelden rather than the Master, and I doubt anyone else wanted to head to Ferelden to stop the Warden during a Blight. I find it more odd that a romanced Zevran or Leliana (or even a buddy Zevran) are AWOL when the Warden heads to Amaranthine; also find it strange that even Anders never references the Magi boon even if the Chantry said no.

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm a mage, what can I say? I remember the line, but it seemed like Taliesan was in charge of the team currently in Ferelden rather than the Master, and I doubt anyone else wanted to head to Ferelden to stop the Warden during a Blight. I find it more odd that a romanced Zevran or Leliana (or even a buddy Zevran) are AWOL when the Warden heads to Amaranthine; also find it strange that even Anders never references the Magi boon even if the Chantry said no.

Oh, what bugged me (why I started this thread) is the crows took another contract on the warden when Ignacio said the Crows were not going to take out any more and actually tried to recruit the warden into the Crows. 

Taliesen and his men were in Ferelden looking for Zevran and looking to complete the contract on the warden.  Once Taliesen is dead, there is no one left who wants to enforce the contract.  And Loghain and Howe are dead.  

And I agree, a romanced Zevran/Leliana/Gray Warden Alistair should be in Amaranthine.  I hate that they retconned that.  

[LobselVith8]

If it's the same Master, I can see him taking money if everyone else in the Crows thinks it's too stupid to try to kill the Warden because it's only a matter of time before he gets killed for having an open contract on the frakking Hero of Ferelden. Ignacio has no say over this Master, after all. At least, that was my explanation for why there were Crows in my arling. I could be overthinking the whole thing, since nobody ever comments on my elven mage being the new Arl except Greagoir's clone aka the owner of the bar, but they did say I had the Maker's favor at the end of DA:O.

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If it's the same Master, I can see him taking money if everyone else in the Crows thinks it's too stupid to try to kill the Warden because it's only a matter of time before he gets killed for having an open contract on the frakking Hero of Ferelden. Ignacio has no say over this Master, after all. At least, that was my explanation for why there were Crows in my arling. I could be overthinking the whole thing, since nobody ever comments on my elven mage being the new Arl except Greagoir's clone aka the owner of the bar, but they did say I had the Maker's favor at the end of DA:O.

Ignacio says it comes from above him, that his superiors no longer will be taking new contracts on the warden, and implies heavily that they want to recruit the warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2011 - 12:14 .

[LobselVith8]

I remember. It makes sense for the Masters because the Wardens have a reputation, but doesn't that leave the Master with the contract out of the loop and in it deep if the Warden accepts the offer? I could be wrong, though.

Btw, is there a link to your post about the elven Bann Epilogues? I want to correct the Epilogue page.

[ejoslin]

Oh, ugh, no, I never save links. Hmmmmm. It's easier just to copy from the toolset! [edit] I believe ZDF and MRPFP are the only two mods that fix the bad flag that was causing these slides not to trigger except for for the unnamed Bann. [/edit]

If there's a Bann for the Alienage:

With a new bann in the Landsmeet to represent them, the city-born elves found a better lot than ever. New law gave the elves more trading rights and their own militia within the Alienage.

Shianni: Resistance from humans saw a rise in violence in the city, however, which culminated in Shianni's murder by a human bigot several years later. The resulting riot in the Alienage forced a crack-down from the throne, a clear signal that the tension with the elves had not been resolved.

Soris: A year later, Soris's marriage to a wealthy human woman caused a scandal in both parts of the city--resulting in a riot within the Alienage that forced a crack-down from the throne. Angered, Soris resigned his title and left Ferelden with his new wife. No new bann was named to replace him.

Warden: With <FirstName/> as their new voice, the elves became prosperous in a way they had never known... enough to draw elves from nearby lands, desperate for real hope. The influx built ire among the human population and eventually resulted in a riot in Denerim, showing that as much as things change, they always stay the same.

Unnamed: Resistance from humans saw a rise in violence in the city, however, culminating in an angry mob outside the Landsmeet that stoned the new bann to death. The resulting riot in the Alienage forced a crack-down from the throne, a clear signal that tensions with the elves were far from resolved.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Thanks, ejoslin! I included your website in the Talk page for DA fans looking to get the mod to get the elven Bann Epilogues, but I'm not familiar with MRPFP. I can amend the information in the Talk page if you tell me what MRPFP means (I'm not mod savvy).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[DPSSOC]

ejoslin wrote...
Oh, what bugged me (why I started this thread) is the crows took another contract on the warden when Ignacio said the Crows were not going to take out any more and actually tried to recruit the warden into the Crows.

I remember yelling at my TV, "You lying bastard!"

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Gah...one day I'll have to write something about those horrible CE epilogue slides >.< My CE put Shianni as bann. I think she'd go on a murderous rampage if her cousin was killed, and Zev would come along with her. :/

But as to the main topic (hello, zombie thread!) the *only* justification I can think of that might make sense is that the Amaranthine nobles had enough coin to pressure the original Master who still holds the contract into upholding Loghain/Howe's deal. Maybe they threatened to let it be spread around that the Crows had failed their first two attempts (Zevran AND Taliesen), and we do know the Crows care about their reputation.

How the Master managed to get his cell to actually assist (presuming they are within his cell, considering Ignacio promises outside help will be unlikely) is tricky to rationalise, however, as Zevran and Ignacio make it abundantly clear that the majority of assassins consider taking on a Grey Warden to be suicidal. I doubt extra money was that big an incentive if Howe/Loghain were able to draw on the treasuries of Denerim, Highever AND Amaranthine, so either something changed in Antiva or Zevran/Ignacio's words were forgotten/handwaved.

Considering the team that worked on Awakening wasn't the same as Origins, probably the latter. But seriously, Bioware, Antiva has so many assassin guilds you couldn't have used a different one?

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Thanks, ejoslin! I included your website in the Talk page for DA fans looking to get the mod to get the elven Bann Epilogues, but I'm not familiar with MRPFP. I can amend the information in the Talk page if you tell me what MRPFP means (I'm not mod savvy).

Oh, that's Terra_Ex's Morrigan Restoration Patch Fix Pack.  He and I have a few overlapping files, so we use the same files so our mods are compatible.

[ejoslin]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Gah...one day I'll have to write something about those horrible CE epilogue slides >.< My CE put Shianni as bann. I think she'd go on a murderous rampage if her cousin was killed, and Zev would come along with her. :/

But as to the main topic (hello, zombie thread!) the *only* justification I can think of that might make sense is that the Amaranthine nobles had enough coin to pressure the original Master who still holds the contract into upholding Loghain/Howe's deal. Maybe they threatened to let it be spread around that the Crows had failed their first two attempts (Zevran AND Taliesen), and we do know the Crows care about their reputation.

How the Master managed to get his cell to actually assist (presuming they are within his cell, considering Ignacio promises outside help will be unlikely) is tricky to rationalise, however, as Zevran and Ignacio make it abundantly clear that the majority of assassins consider taking on a Grey Warden to be suicidal. I doubt extra money was that big an incentive if Howe/Loghain were able to draw on the treasuries of Denerim, Highever AND Amaranthine, so either something changed in Antiva or Zevran/Ignacio's words were forgotten/handwaved.

Considering the team that worked on Awakening wasn't the same as Origins, probably the latter. But seriously, Bioware, Antiva has so many assassin guilds you couldn't have used a different one?

My money is on the handwave.

I personally think that instead of the Antivan Crows, they should have used the Crimson Oars.  

[Shinobu]

Sorry, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but as a follow up to the "crimson oars" idea, is there any proof that the "Antivan Crows" Esmerelle hired were actual Antivan Crows? I find it more likely that some opportunists figured they could get more money out of the Banns if they called themselves Crows and were too stupid to realize that the Hero of Ferelden would wipe the floor with their sorry asses.

@ejoslin, thanks for the clarification on the city elf boon thing. I chose "unnamed Bann," who got stoned to death. With the bugs would Shianni have survived as Bann in the vanilla game? She became hahren and Soris ran off to Highever with his human bride in my Anora ending. I wonder if choosing "a title and lands" wouldn't be a better boon for the CE to choose because then the Alienage Bann epilogues wouldn't occur.

[MKDAWUSS]

Somebody could have offed Ignacio. They could have reneged on their wow just as easily.