143 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I don't see what the problem is. The Crows get contracted to kill you again. They are assassins. it is not like their word is some sort of unbreakable bond, nor is it universal. Ignacio could have been telling the truth, as far as his cell is concerned, But given the nebulous nature of the Crows and their world, I never really took their word that no more assasins would come after you as gospel.

I took it as: no one is going to screw with you.....for now, because there isn't much profit or motive for trying to off the Warden who is going to stop the Blight.

Now that the Blight is over, things have changed, and the Warden is not so essential anymore. Furthermore, the Warden, on behalf of the First Warden, is getting directly involved in politics in a way unprecendented for Wardens outside the Anderfels. Beyond the local Banns, I am sure that there are probably others watching the situation with concern, and not all of them necessarily are Fereldens. Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine is trying to set up a Wardens-in-Politics precedent, something that might not sit well with others. Others who have plenty of money and resources. There rebellious Banns could have had "friends" in high places slipping them some money.

[NinjaRogue]

I can care less about them lieing to me and trying to kill me. THE FACT THAT THEY STEAL VIGILENCE?!?!? DEATH TO THEM ALL!!!

[ejoslin]

Skadi, the reason it's a handwave is twofold.  Here are the issues:

1. No Crow except Zevran would take the contract on two gray warden recruits. A year later they're willing to take on the Warden Commander of Ferelden who is both nobility and a likely personal friend of at least one of the rulers (Alistair can be either way, Anora is an ally no matter what if she's queen). Why is the WC less threatening than a couple of recruits who are declared criminals?\\

2. If you do the Crow line, Ignacio tells you that his superiors want the warden to know that they aren't taking any more contracts, and would basically like the warden to come to antiva after the blight to work for them if the warden is interested.

Saying, "OK, so they lied," is still a handwave. And it completely disregards point 1.

I hated the Vigilance card. Because soon after that one, my Warden is perhaps leader of the crows. Even my epilogue cards contradict each other!

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Shinobu wrote...

Sorry, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but as a follow up to the "crimson oars" idea, is there any proof that the "Antivan Crows" Esmerelle hired were actual Antivan Crows?

They're definitely Crows. During the fight, their 'labels' show up as Crow Assassin, IIRC.

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Skadi, the reason it's a handwave is twofold.  Here are the issues:

1. No Crow except Zevran would take the contract on two gray warden recruits. A year later they're willing to take on the Warden Commander of Ferelden who is both nobility and a likely personal friend of at least one of the rulers (Alistair can be either way, Anora is an ally no matter what if she's queen). Why is the WC less threatening than a couple of recruits who are declared criminals?

Only Zevran claims that no one else would have taken on the contract and he only did because he wanted to die.

At the point this contract was made the Warden was a nobody, barely part of an order that doesn't live up to its own legend. Why would the Crows fear a lowly Warden? Why would they fear the Warden Commander? They are trained to kill their targets. They kill Antivan royalty and nobility and antagonize the Circle and Chantry if necessary.

Maybe you simply can't trust a Crow. Even the ones you desperately want to trust because twu wub and all.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

If you take Zevran with you when you meet Ignacio, Ignacio gets quite vocal about not being stupid enough to take a contract on a Warden and that he, too, considers it suicidal. So it's not only Zevran's claim that the Grey Wardens are deemed difficult marks by the Crows.

But, hey, everyone you talk to in the game could be lying. *shrug*

[LobselVith8]

I don't see a reason why Zevran would lie, though, klarabella. If they're hesitant about going after recruits, why would they be so willing to go after the person who killed the Archdemon? I have a guy who jumps off a cliff simply to avoid fighting me as I rescue Eileen Bensley. We also know only one Master took the contract, and the other Masters seemed to have left him to fend for himself with an invitation for the Warden-Commander to come to Antiva. Since the Old Stark Farm encounter had me fight the imprisoned Ser Temmerly the Ox and Lady Lisa despite the fact that I gave her the bridge and mollified Derren, maybe we shouldn't put any stock into the idea that the Crows were really responsible.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...

Skadi, the reason it's a handwave is twofold.  Here are the issues:

1. No Crow except Zevran would take the contract on two gray warden recruits. A year later they're willing to take on the Warden Commander of Ferelden who is both nobility and a likely personal friend of at least one of the rulers (Alistair can be either way, Anora is an ally no matter what if she's queen). Why is the WC less threatening than a couple of recruits who are declared criminals?

2. If you do the Crow line, Ignacio tells you that his superiors want the warden to know that they aren't taking any more contracts, and would basically like the warden to come to antiva after the blight to work for them if the warden is interested.

Saying, "OK, so they lied," is still a handwave. And it completely disregards point 1.

I hated the Vigilance card. Because soon after that one, my Warden is perhaps leader of the crows. Even my epilogue cards contradict each other!

Times and politics change, and so do goals. In Awakening, the Blight is over. The Warden Commander is no longer some green recruit, but a powerful figure who is percieved at overstepping some bounds the Wardens normally do not cross. Ignacio's staement of no more contracts on the Warden most likely was because of the Blight. The Crows would no longer interfere with the Warden, because the Warden needed to defeat the Blight. Antiva, unlike Ferelden, had been hit pretty good by the last Blight, and I think it was even defeated in Antiva. (which probably plays a bigegr part on the reasons why the crows don't normally attack Wardens, and they have proven to be a necessity in the past).

In Awakenings, the Warden Commander is engaging in activity unprecedented by Grey Wardens in the past. The Wardens, who traditionally are apolitical, are now starting to wield actual political power,  and thus, not staying in their "place". While their duties of battling Blights might normally make them generally off limits for crows, this is a different scenario. So I don't see why this would make this a handwave.

When Zevran told you that Crows normally do not accept contracts on the Wardens, he said it was because it was "impolitic" to do so. I think this is the key word here. Crows in Antiva do not attack Wardens normally, not out of fear of their supposed prowess (since crows will attack mages, kings, queens, nobles, and even Chantry personnel), but because of broader ranging political issues and reasons, more than anything. Attacking a very skileld and important order, who is known to stay away from power games and intirgues of the state and normally does not threaten anyone's power or ambition, would be stupid. The Crows would unecessarily make an enemy, and a deadly one, where it was completely unecessary. Especially when there are bigger and better targets to be had.

I've never gotten the Zevran epilogue cards because I have not had him in a romance in Awakenings, but if the epilogue cards show the Warden taking over the Antivan Crows, that seems more handwavish. I find it difficult to see how a Ferelden born Warden, who has never been outside the country and who has no experience with Antiva, it's society and politics, and people, would manage to take over the Crows, and by default, Antiva. Especially since the crows have survived and thrived for centuries, even through qunari invasions. That seems more improbable, especially given what little we know of Antiva, the crows, and their organizational structure. Taking over such an organization, with a foreigner and low-ranking assassin, just seems rather unlikely. Antiva is not Ferelden.

I don't see how this is a handwave. Ignacio's word isn't cannon.

There are many more other things in Awakenings that would either qualify as handwaves or nonsensical, more so than the Crows attacking you or stealing your awesome sword.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see a reason why Zevran would lie, though, klarabella.

Because he was raised to do so. Do you think his upbringing vanishes into thin air the moment he finds a friend/lover? It's likely there will always be things he would not tell you, be it a lie of omission or making a tale more fanciful.

Do you think you can take every word Zevran breathes at friendship-level or above for face value?

The Crows are a notorious order of assassins, renowned for their skill, stealth and cruelty. Do you think they would be frightened by a silly legend, blissfully unaware that the Grey Wardens can't possibly live up to it?
The same order that is hyped for being able to spot a single target that is trying to and adept at covering his tracks while moving across Thedas (thus making it impossible for Zevran to take his chances and leave the order, prefering to commit suicide by random newbie Warden instead)?

Call it a plot hole or maybe accept that Zevran and Ignacio aren't the most reliable of narrators.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 mars 2011 - 03:34 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

In Fact, I can think of scenarios/things in Awakening That are actually more wierd and conflict with what we learned in origins:

1. The elf mage, Cera, who is not a tranquil, being able to do enchantments. In Origins, only a dwarf or tranquil could perform this feat, and anyone else who tried would fail...quite painfully.

2. Wardens, whether mage or not, dwarf or not, and being non tranquil, being able to craft runes, something that was supposedly only doable by dwarves and tranquil.

3. Anora giving such a sizable chunk of Ferelden to a foreign organization that has not only tried to overthrow the monarchy in the past, but also has strong affiliation with the orlesian Empress. Not only is Amaranthine big, it is very important economically and strategicly. Though I can see king Alistair giving away that much to the Wardens, Anora is a different matter. She is wiser and better versed in politics and it's implications. Such a move seems uncharacteristically trusting and foolish of her. I can see her giving them some minor piece of the Bannorn under the control of Amaranthine to their care, but not the whole friggin Arling. That's bizarre.

4. The absence of Warden Alistair. Alistair, if he survived and did not become king. He is a Warden, the only other living one in Ferelden, and the other one who was helping to defeat the Blight. Yet in Awakening, he doesn't exist, never did. Not a mention of where he went, not even in the epilogue slide. Whether the Warden is a male or female, whether they romanced him or not, is irrelevant. He's a Warden, takes his role as a Warden very seriously, yet he completely vanished in Awakening. No letter, no mention of what he is doing or where he has gone and why. Of all your companions in origin, no matter what, his absence without mention of why is a big "WTF" moment that seems to go contrary to Origins.

5. Non Wardens knowing about, and performing, the Joining ritual. Varel is not a Warden, nor are we given reasons why he, and not the Warden Commander, are administering the Joining. Again, conflicting with origins.

6. Oghren. He usually ended up being my bestest drinking buddy in Origins. In awaking, his approval is neutral, and behaves mostly as if the two of you are perfect strangers, even though you went through so much together in origins. yet an Orlesian Warden, who has no history of knowledge of him, has a better chance of achieving higher approval with him.

7. Though I've never gotten this or seen it myself, from what I hear from others, your Warden can be the king/queen consort of Ferelden, yet no one aknowledges or notices this, despite the fact you are pretty much the second most powerful and important person in the country. I would think that your average Ferelden would at least notice one of their monarchs, and react accordingly.

These are just things, off the top off my head, and I think they are more glaring and contradictory. To be honest, I wasn't terribly surprised the Crows attacked, though in the epilogues, I was ouzzled at why they would be the ones interested in stealing my sword.

[sylvanaerie]

Ignacio will also say they never cancel a contract once taken if you ask him if doing the quests will get the Crows off your back. I just assumed that Taliesen had more buddies in his cell (those ones in Awakening) who continued on with it once the Blight was over in Awakenings. Surely once one master dies, another in the cell takes over (taking over all the other active contracts). Fighting the wardens would have been hard to find allies outside the cell, but since they already had the contract and a bunch of willing cannon fodder nobles who were revolting anyway, why not try to fulfill the contract? Ignacio says the Crows survive as long as they have by being consistent and sticking to their word in these matters, that he had, in fact, half expected the warden to doublecross him.
Ignacio can't get the Crows off your back, he will say this during the quests. He only intimates that it will make it harder for the master with the contract to get help from other crows.
Taliesan only showed up in Denerim to kill the Warden and retrieve Zevran "When I heard the great Zevran had gone rogue, I had to see it for myself."
Surely that wasn't ALL the members of his cell with him? He doubtless expected Zevran to join with him at that point.

[LobselVith8]

@Skadi, Amaranthine is likely still a vassal of Highever, and it was Fergus' choice to hand Amaranthine over to the Wardens. It's why he can give a portion over to Nathaniel.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Skadi, the reason it's a handwave is twofold.  Here are the issues:

1. No Crow except Zevran would take the contract on two gray warden recruits. A year later they're willing to take on the Warden Commander of Ferelden who is both nobility and a likely personal friend of at least one of the rulers (Alistair can be either way, Anora is an ally no matter what if she's queen). Why is the WC less threatening than a couple of recruits who are declared criminals?

Only Zevran claims that no one else would have taken on the contract and he only did because he wanted to die.

At the point this contract was made the Warden was a nobody, barely part of an order that doesn't live up to its own legend. Why would the Crows fear a lowly Warden? Why would they fear the Warden Commander? They are trained to kill their targets. They kill Antivan royalty and nobility and antagonize the Circle and Chantry if necessary.

Maybe you simply can't trust a Crow. Even the ones you desperately want to trust because twu wub and all.

No, Ignacio scoffs at the idea of taking that contract, that only a fool would have taken it.  So you have Zevran's word and Ignacio's comment about taking that contract as well.

And why did they not want to take on a couple of outlaw gray warden recruits?  They're still gray wardens.  The word Zevran used is impolitic.

WHY is it difficult for people to just accept that it's a handwave?  It is.

Edit: "twu wub" has nothing to do with in-game dialog.  "Well, he lied" is nothing but a handwave.  "Well, they both lied" is a bigger handwave.  

And the banter where Zevran tells Alistair about no one else being willing to take the contract seems pretty genuine.  No real reason for him to be lying to Alistair about that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2011 - 03:59 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...

@Skadi, Amaranthine is likely still a vassal of Highever, and it was Fergus' choice to hand Amaranthine over to the Wardens. It's why he can give a portion over to Nathaniel.

In the human noble origins, it is, but Fergus is not present at the corronation in other ones, and in the coronation ceremony, Anora says she will give the lands of Howe to the Wardens. Even if Fergus hands it over, the Queen can have the final say, and forbid the Wardens from taking it over, offering them a smaller holding instead. That would have been wiser and more practical, and the Wardens would still be in a piosition to investigate the Architect and build a base, without wielding so much political power and influence. They could have instead "experimented" with politics on a much smaller, less signifigant scale. That seems more wise, and Anora has never struck me as someone who was terribly foolish or anmored with the wardens enough to hand over that much influence and control of the country. 

But regardless, as I said, it is far more questionable and seems more like a handwave than the Crows taking a contract to eliminate a Warden who is ruffling feathers and overstepping very senstive boundaries.

[ejoslin]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Ignacio will also say they never cancel a contract once taken if you ask him if doing the quests will get the Crows off your back. I just assumed that Taliesen had more buddies in his cell (those ones in Awakening) who continued on with it once the Blight was over in Awakenings. Surely once one master dies, another in the cell takes over (taking over all the other active contracts). Fighting the wardens would have been hard to find allies outside the cell, but since they already had the contract and a bunch of willing cannon fodder nobles who were revolting anyway, why not try to fulfill the contract? Ignacio says the Crows survive as long as they have by being consistent and sticking to their word in these matters, that he had, in fact, half expected the warden to doublecross him.
Ignacio can't get the Crows off your back, he will say this during the quests. He only intimates that it will make it harder for the master with the contract to get help from other crows.
Taliesan only showed up in Denerim to kill the Warden and retrieve Zevran "When I heard the great Zevran had gone rogue, I had to see it for myself."
Surely that wasn't ALL the members of his cell with him? He doubtless expected Zevran to join with him at that point.

This was a new contract, though.  Again, the old contract, while it won't be cancelled, it doesn't seem like they're planning on fulfilling it.  Howe is dead.  Loghain in that game is dead (though he may end up being a gray warden).  There is no reason whatsoever for them to continue throwing men at them (it's expensive to train assassins). The assassins are dead.  And the higher ups think the warden (even as a recruit) makes a far better friend than enemy.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2011 - 04:32 .

[LobselVith8]

@Skadi, Fergus may not be present (and he wasn't for my elven mage) the Nathaniel Epilogue does indicate its still a vassal of his lands. I don't see why Queen Anora would provoke an incident with the Hero of Ferelden and the Teyrn of Highever when people are saying the Hero has the blessing of the Maker, even as a Mage, especially since the arling of Amaranthine now being governed by the Wardens doesn't relinquish her role as Queen. The fact that she's willing to openly state that the Hero makes a good point when asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence tells me that she knows how valued the Wardens are now among the people, in the wake of ending the Blight. It's why she tasked her father with recruiting more Wardens for the order.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@Lobesel: The Warden's status as hero has nothing to do with it. I doubt that had Anora not handed over Amaranthine to the Wardens, but instead, had given them some other holding that was not as strategically important, anyone would have been terribly upset about it. The Wardens get their own holding to play politics and fight darkspawn, but are not given a signifigant amount of power and influence over domestic policy and internal government. What the people think is irrelevant.

Plus, it was the First Warden, not our Warden, who wanted to set up a political base of operations. The First Warden is a foreigner who lives in the Anderfells. He is not the great hero of ferelden. Thus, when he wants something, it is different than say, the hero of Ferelden asking for it.

TFreeing the Circle is a completely different ballgame, and as Gaider said, even the king.queen simply does not have the authority to simply say to the Chantry: "Free the Circle". No matter how well loved by the masses the Warden might be, it is not a carte blanche where they can ask for or do whatever they like. Like I said, there are other holdings and lesser titles that could have been granted to the Wardens.

Anora might be queen, sure, and in general, would still be in charge, but ferelden's politics are not that simple. Giving Amaranthine to the wardens to govorn would be like giving California over to some foreign entity to govern, even if it still is technically part of the US. The dangers of such an action would be considerable for any leader and their nation.

[LobselVith8]

If it's a completely different ballgame, then why is there no independent Circle of Orzammar if the Hero of Ferelden asks for the Circle to be given its independence? Why does Cullen go insane? Why does Connor go to Tevinter? These Epilogue slides specifically showed up when I asked Queen Anora for the Magi boon. I know Gaider said the Chantry said no, but it reads like a recton when you factor in the changes to the Epilogue the Magi boon brings, not to mention Irving's own comments about freeing the Circle from "it's shackles."

Why should Anora do anything to stop the Wardens when they're the only thing that stands between humanity and the darkspawn? If the Warden-Commander is the de facto Arl of Amaranthine, then he or she is a noble under the rule of Queen Anora who governs the entire nation. It's within Fegus' legal right to hand over Amaranine to the Wardens, after all, and its still his vassal despite letting the Wardens govern the arling.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Connor going to tevinter happens whether the Warden is a mage or not, and asks for the Boon. Circle Mages, while imprisoned, are allowed to go out occasionally on Circle business, and work with other circles. That has nothing to do with a Mage boon or origin, it happens if Connor is freed from the demon.

The Independant Circle opens up in Orzammar because of Dagna, regardless of Origin, if the tower was saved and Dagna allowed to study there. Again, this has nothing to do with anything, as far as boons, origins, or the leader of ferelden is concerned.

Anora or Alistair's boon might give the mages some distance from the Chantry, but the fact that Cullen, a Templar, who serves only the Chantry, is still present to kill apprentices shows that the Circle has not been totally freed from it's shackles, that at the most, the Chantry control was reduced in some way. The Chantry still runs the Circle if they are keeping templars there. At most, they probably do not have as much say in internal Circle affairs as they once did.

In Awakenings, Anders is on the run from the templars, regardless of what boon you asked for, and the Chantry is still hunting apostates and maleificar, as per the Chantry quests you get. the monarch's boon to a mage was more likely a loosening or relaxing of the Chantry's laws regarding the circle, not a complete annihilation of them.

Why should Anora not give Amaranthine to the Wardens? because as i said before, the Warden is not the one asking for it, nor is the Warden the one with the original plan. And she is not simply granting a favor, she is giving control over a very large and important part of her country to a foreign based organization that not only has attempted a coup in the past, but currently has strong ties to nforeign nations, like orlais, who have very shady intentions. Good feeling simply because a couple of them stopped a civil war and Blight is not sound reason enough to give them that much power and control within her own borders. She might be the queen, but as we all know, the Monarch's power and stability is heavily tied into the Banns and Arls beneath them. There is no guarantee the Wardens are going to put the national interests of ferelden above their own interests, and given Warden views on the matter, it is unlikely they will.

When you have a region as economically vital and strategically important as the arling of Amaranthine, a wise ruler would put in charge someone who considers the interests of the nation and the crown as paramont. Not an organization whose interests often conflict with those of the nation hosting them.

it is just foolish and uncharactiersitic of a wise and competant ruler, which Anora, for all intents and purposes, has been portayed as.

[ejoslin]

Actually, the circle opening in Orzammar doesn't happen if you're a mage and ask for the boon (you only get the independent Orzammar circle if you don't help brother berkel and you don't ask for the mage boon). The problem is, if you ask Alistair for the boon, it's bugged and the flag doesn't get set (unless you use ZDF or MRPFP or, even better, both).

[LobselVith8]

@Skadi, I've never personally seen the Connor Epilogue without getting the Magi boon recognized, but it's incorrect of you to state the independent Circle always forms when fit specifically doesn't if you ask for the Magi boon. All that shows is the comment about Dagna's research. Add that to the fact that Cullen goes insane and Irving directly addresses the Magi boon as a given when he talks about being freed from "their shackles," and I see the Magi boon being turned down as much of a recton as the change over elven footwear. The boon is never addressed in Awakening or Witch Hunt to the point of sheer stupidity. Why is the royal boon never once referenced?

Anora is basically announcing Fergus' intent to give his vassal over to the Wardens instead of letting the Howes continue to govern it. It's not foolish and uncharacteristic to let the order that saved Ferelden have a presence in the nation to avoid the same crisis that arose the last time there limited Wardens. As for the OP, I see no reason anyone besides the Master with the original contract would be stupid enough to go after the Warden who killed an Archdemon and defeated the last crew of Crows who were sent after him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I have never seen the independant circle in Orzammar form without Dagna going to the Circle to study. And an independant Circle in Orzammar has nothing to do with the Circle of Ferelden or the Chantry, as Orzammar is a soverign nation not under the unfluence and rule of the Chantry or Ferelden. The Warden, nor whatever boon the chosen monarch might grant them, nor the Chantry, has anything to do with orzammar's fully independant circle.

Ferelden is a nation where the Chantry holds much power and sway, and general attitudes towards magic and mages are quite different than what the dwarves think. Thus, a monarch granting the Circle its independance in Ferelden is not as absolute or simple, as it would be in Orzammar, where dwarves do not follow the Chantry, nor do they have a highly cultivated terror of mages and magic.

Anora/Alistair can promise whatever they like at the corronation, and Irving can hope that indeed, the mages will be free. However, once the festivities are over and iriving returns to the circle, the reality does not change. At most, Anora and Alistair's boon will probably translate as some increase in the Circle's independance and self deterimination in some less critical areas. But complete Freedom? No. Like I said, the templars like Cullen still remain, which means the Chantry remains.

regardless of whether or not the Wardens saved Ferelden, from the position of government and rulership, giving a foreign order that much power within your coutnry, regardless of if they saved it or not, is foolish. Even if all the ruler wanted to do was say thanks, there are far better, less dangerous ways to show it.

Like I said, they could have been given some lesser, subordinate Bann position, rather than the whole Arling. They would still be in a position to build up their numbers and a base of operations in Ferelden as the rulers of some bann. They don't need the whole frigging Arling of Amaranthine to do it with. And they would still be within Amaranthine, geolgraphically as well as politically, so they could still deal with the darkspawn there. Plus, the First Warden would get his experiment in Warden politics, just on a much smaller, less nationally signifigant scale. They do not need power of major national economic and strategic holdings to carry out their mission.

As for the Crows, I disagree. The Warden is impressive, but not immortal. And the implications of Wardens getting involved directly in politics is of Thedas-wide concern. I think more people than just Fereldens are watching the situation, especially places that have signifigant numbers of Wardens and their bases. And more than a number of people will view this less than favorably, and might have reasons and incentives to get involved themselves, though indirectly. In other words, the Crows. And while some Masters such as ignacio would probably not take such a contract, younger, more ambitious Masters might, especially if there were great gains to be had. And not only would a contract on the Warden be a very well funded, expensive contract with much material gain for a Master, the prestige that a successful hit would bring could be enough for a less cautious, more risk-willing Master to take it on. Especially if they had big ambitions on rising to the top of the organization.

But like I said, I do not think the Crows avoid hits on Wardens out of some fear or awe of the order, but because it is "impolitic", at least within Antiva, where the place of the Wardens is signifigantly different than in Ferelden. While within Antiva, the Crows might not attack Wardens, in a country like Ferelden, which is far more politically and socially backwards than Antiva, and there are a number of people who are still anti-Warden (otherwise, there would be no conspiracy of the nobility in the first place) they might have a different attitude.

I mean, the Crows took on the qunari and won, being a major reason why the qunari could not hold on to Antiva. And while not the archdemon or a horde of darkspawn, the qunari are threatening and formidible enough that in non-Blight times, they are considered the greatest threat to Thedas and humanity. If the crows are willing to take them on and succeed, I seriously do not think they are going to avoid the Wardens simply because they are scared of them.

Edit to add: Connor has gone to tevinter in my non-mage epilogues when I saved him from the desire demon and killed her. This happened in my HN epilogue and my dwarf commoner epilogue. And he even goes to Tevinter if the circle is destroyed, as happened in another epilogue (think it was either a mage or DN one, don't remember which). So Connor traveling to Tevinter has nothing to do with the political state of the circle, only his survival and freddom from the desire demon. As even my mages have not asked for the boon, yet I get this epilogue regardless, shows it is not tied at all to the Circle, but to Connor's state himself.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 06 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[ejoslin]

Conditions for the independent circle:

1. You did not do Brother Berkel's quest (if you do, you get a chantry instead)
2. You did not ask for the circle's independence as a mage.

Dagna still goes and studies at the circle and writes a book. But no circle is formed in Orzammar unless those two conditions are met.

Again, if Alistair is made king, in the vanilla game, a few of the boon flags do NOT get set properly (HN, CE, Mage, and Aid for Orzammar). So if you ask for the mage boon from him, you'll get incorrect slides.

Edit: Again, you can come up with reasons why the crows would come after the warden, but it still contradicts several dialogs in DAO, which makes it a handwave.  It has to be rationalized.  It bugged me back when I started this thread and seriously broke immersion.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2011 - 07:01 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

As I said, in both my mage playthroughs, Anora is on the throne, but neither asked for the circle to be freed. One saved connor. Nothing about Cullen flipping out and killing mages or the Circle being freed in my epilogues, but Connor was still chilling in Tevinter. One even annulled the Circle.

As far as the Circle in orzammar goes, my Dwarf commoner not only helped Burkel open a Chantry (she was a convert to Andrastism) but she also let Dagna go off and study at the circle, which she had saved. And I got both epilogue slides, indicating Burkels martyrdom and the Chantry's ire at that, as well as dagna's books inspiring an independant Circle in Orzammar, also pissing off the Chantry. If they two slides were not meant to be shown in the same playthropugh, then its a bug. But in every playthrough where I helped Dagna, regardless of what I did with Burkel, the Circle in Orzammar still shows up, provided Dagna had an intact Circle to study in.

If you are basing it on dialogues, even then, it does not really contradict. Zevran is a low ranking assassin in the crows who probably does not have much personal knowledge of how things work amongst the hiererarchies. Ignacio is but one Master amongst many, telling you during a Blight, that hos order is not accepting any more contracts on you. Two individuals in a far reaching underground criminal organization. I don't see the contradictions at all.

Nor did I find it terribly immersion breaking when they showed up, it didn't seem that odd or out of place. I found the travesty of the Joining to be far more immersion breaking and contradictory to lore and Origins, and that is universal and unavoidable. The lack of aknowledgement in many areas of the story regarding various events in origins that were signifigant were also immersion breaking.

But the crows? They weren't that signifigant to the story in Origins, and could be completely ignored and blown off in terms of impact to the overall storyline. Their appearance in Awakening was hardly noteworthy or brow raising to me. They are an order of clever, ruthless, powerful assassins who target royalty, magi, clergy, and qunari alike, I see no reason why, for the right price, my Warden would be any different.

[ejoslin]

No, there is a slide that has an independent circle in Orzammar under those two conditions I listed. Otherwise, Dagna, if you do her quest, just goes to the circle in Ferelden and writes a book. However, THIS is the slide that I am referring to if you don't help Berkel and you help Dagna and do NOT ask for the Mage boon:

This inspired mages from other parts of Thedas to establish a new Circle of Magi in Orzammar itself, one that had ready access to dwarven lyrium... and lies outside the Chantry's power completely. The willingness of Orzammar to harbor apostates sparked outrage that began whispers that the Divine was contemplating a new Exalted March.

I think the original point being made (though correct me if I'm wrong), that if the Chantry just said, "no," this slide should also appear for a warden who asked for a mage boon. The implication being that there was no need for an independent circle in Orzammar if there's an independent circle in Ferelden.

Of course, I think this implies that if Ferelden tried to have an independent circle despite the chantry, the chantry would go against Ferelden. But who knows.

As far as the contradiction, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I think what you're saying, that Zevran actually didn't know anything (though he certainly SOUNDS certain about this) and that Ignacio is just one of many and his superiors (who presumably are VERY high up) are actually lying during the blight is a handwave.