143 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

That was my point, ejoslin. Thank you.

Considering an imprisoned noble and a noble you can appease are at the Old Stark Farm, maybe we shouldn't give much weight to the idea that they're really Antivan Crows. After all, Lady Liza can come back from the dead if we do "A Day in Court" after this quest.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

What I was saying, is that Zevran, from his level, and point of view within the Crows, would certainly have not know alot of things about what was going up on top and how things worked up there. Within the Crows, Zevran was a lowly footsoldier, considered highly skilled, but expendable. He knows how the Crows operate as much as someone down on the bottom of the food chain would. Much like your average soldier would only know how things work within the military from his position as a doer and workhorse, not a genereal or colonel. And since we know little about the power structure within the Crows, Ignacio's word might only be his own and that of a few allies, but he can't really speak for the whole organization.

We might just be disagreeing on the definition of a handwave. But my own definition is something that blatantly and illogically contradicts a concrete part of the lore and earlier plot. Like, non-dwarves and non-tranquils performing runecrafting and enchantment, non-Warden nobodys performing the Joining ritual, dead wardens coming from the dead to run Amaranthine, ect. Or, something where someone from Origins has a complete, inexplicable 180 degree turn in character and motivation for no sane or rational reason. The Crows, being assassins to the core, taking a contract on the Warden is not a completely inexplicable, illogical turn of events, or out of character with what could be reasonably expected from such an organization. They aren't an honorable order of folk heroes, after all. An unexplicable, bizzare change in character would be a handwave to me, like if the Crows showed up in Amaranthine to pass out supplies to the needy, toys to the orphans, and donate money to the Warden's cause.....that is what I would consider a handwave.

The Chantry would go absolutely ape-sh*t if Ferelden's Circle went independant, and would probably want to call all sorts of Exalted Marches on Ferelden if a Monarch allowed that, though the success of getting other countries involved is not guaranteed, and such a march might fail. The only way that the mages of Ferelden will ever be free is if the Chantry is broken and knocked down in power, or there was a mass, Thedas-wide organized revolt of mages everywhere.

Since I've never asked for the mage boon, I've never seen Dagna's Circle not show up in a slide, so if it is absent if the boon is asked, I can see why there would be implications there. But otherwise, the independant Circle in Orzammar has shown up in every epilogue where I helped out Dagna and the Circle had not been annulled. If it doesn't show up when the mage boon is granted, it could be interpreted as a truly independant Circle, or it could imply general contentment with reforms made and restrictions loosened in the Ferelden Circle, that mages are less driven to form a Circle in an alien culture and alien environment.

Given of what we see in Awakenings (the meeting of the Magi in Cumberland, which is in Nevarra), and what is being hinted at in DA2, my guess is the latter. That restrictions were loosened on the Circle, but the Chantry still had a firm grip on the chain.

[LobselVith8]

@Skadi, I was discussing the Epilogue and what shows up. Magi boon = no independent Circle of Orzamamar and First Enchanter Irving talking about the Circle being free like it already happened. Furthermore, if you've never asked for the Magi boon, why are you debating the absence of the Orzammar Circle when the Hero of Ferelden asks for the Magi boon? In addition, my problem is also that its never once addressed in Awakening or WH. Gaider saying the Chantry said "no" but never addressing that its pretty much ignored in the expansion and the DLC that takes place at the Circle is absolutely ridiculous. If anything, they handwaved the Magi boon.

Zevran was raised by the Crows since he was a boy. I think he knows more than you're giving credit for. If he tells Alistair that they don't go after Wardens and nobody took the offer even when it involves recruits, I don't see why it's an issue we should ignore because the expansion included Anvitan Crows in a buggy quest.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[ejoslin]

Our definitions of handwave are the same. I think a few points were made in DAO that didn't need to be made, and then were tossed out in DA2. So again, on this point we just never will agree.

I'm currently looking at the Slideshow file. I already know (because I have gone over this file extensively) that the flags at this particular part are working properly. This is what you get if you do Brother Berkel's quest and Dagna's...

The dwarven mage, Dagna, ultimately completed her studies at the rebuilt Circle Tower. Eventually, she published a comprehensive theory of how lyrium vapors relate to the supply of magic. It gained a great deal of attention.

Then it skips to the anvil of the void. It is not possible to get both Brother Berkel's chantry slide and then the independent Orzammar circle slide. They're in entirely different trees, and the end of these trees skip down to the anvil of the void.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I'm pretty sure I've gotten both in my DC playthrough. It could be due to a mod, though, as I have several different ones installed. They might not show in a normal game unmodded.

But regardless, I doubt one would really prevent the other. Brother Burkel's chantry following wasn't that big or influenential in Orzammar enough to prevent a Circle from being formed.

[ejoslin]

I don't know. It seems pretty clear that they were meant to be mutually exclusive. Either the chantry or the mages get more power in Orzammar. It wouldn't surprise me if this were a point in a latter game.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

But regardless, I doubt one would really prevent the other. Brother Burkel's chantry following wasn't that big or influenential in Orzammar enough to prevent a Circle from being formed.

It's pretty much one or the other, which is why it's commonly mentioned when people ask about helping Brother Burkel or Dagna, and I do put a great deal of faith in someone who has looked at the actual toolset to see how it all works. The Divine of the Chantry of Andraste is only going to contemplate an Exalted March for one reason or the other, but not both. It's unlikely illegal mages are going to head to an Orzammar where the Andrastians are getting a foothold when they're trying to escape from the Chantry and the templars, after all.

What bothers me that this is a big deal - the Hero of Ferelden is a mage and not only asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence, but the ruler openly agreed. I understand they're making it a plot point in the sequel, but it's such an irrevocable impact that even a failed boon should be mentioned when we run across mages like Anders and Finn, and there's absolutely no mention made of it. Regardless of how the devs choose to handle the Magi boon - as Gaider said when he revealed the Chantry said no - it's something that should have been addressed in the actual games, rather than in a thread I posted over at the DA2 forum.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

There were a ton of important things that were never mentioned from Origins, and inexplicably ignored. Things that were universal and signifigant to all Wardens, not just specific origins or specific boons, that were ignored. The mage and Dalish origins themselves, plus their boons, might play more a role in DA2, but the others might not.

[Habelo]

Could still just be the same crows that where after you in the beginning. That cell will keep trying till yer dead

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

There were a ton of important things that were never mentioned from Origins, and inexplicably ignored. Things that were universal and signifigant to all Wardens, not just specific origins or specific boons, that were ignored. The mage and Dalish origins themselves, plus their boons, might play more a role in DA2, but the others might not.

Yet there were things that were acknowledged. It's not like Awakening ignores if the Warden is the new King or Queen, or even the new Chancellor, but there's literally no mention of the Magi boon and it would seem to be an inconsistent issue for people who don't peruse the forums that there are still templars going after mages and nothing changed. Many people who chose the Magi boon wondered why this was the case in Awakening, and it wouldn't have taken a great deal of effort to explain that the Chantry said no, especially when we encounter mages from the Circle in Awakening and Witch Hunt.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not like Awakening ignores if the Warden is the new King or Queen, or even the new Chancellor, ...

Awakening has the King/Queen-consort or Chancellor running errants for minor nobles and common folk.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 mars 2011 - 05:22 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not like Awakening ignores if the Warden is the new King or Queen, or even the new Chancellor, ...

Awakening has the King/Queen-consort or Chancellor running errants for minor nobles and common folk.

There were many things in Awakening I found lame beyond belief.  That the Warden Commander would be doing those errands was stupid.  That someone could just hand the warden 15 sovereigns for completing one was beyond stupid (remember Kaitlyn's reaction if you gave her 100 or 500 silver?).

Then again, i wasn't the biggest fan of Awakening!  I just wanted to chat a little with my companions before I could tell them at particular times, "You're my dear friend!"

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Yet there were things that were acknowledged. It's not like Awakening ignores if the Warden is the new King or Queen, or even the new Chancellor, but there's literally no mention of the Magi boon and it would seem to be an inconsistent issue for people who don't peruse the forums that there are still templars going after mages and nothing changed. Many people who chose the Magi boon wondered why this was the case in Awakening, and it wouldn't have taken a great deal of effort to explain that the Chantry said no, especially when we encounter mages from the Circle in Awakening and Witch Hunt.

It barely aknowledges you as king or queen, from what I've been told. But beyond that,

1. It ignores your previous history with Oghren.
2. It ignores your origin alot, especially when speaking to companions.
3. If you are not married to the king/queen, your LI's are nonexistant. 
4. None of the other boons are mentioned, either, probably because they have no signifigant impact or importance in Awakening. The lack of mention of the Magi boon, along with the others, is probably because the boons were little more than epilogue cherries to conclude Origins happily, and had no real impact, beyond "The End".

Of course, one must remember that, supposedly, Awakenings takes place a few months after Origins.  Changes usually take time to implement, they do not happen over night. Especially in a society as backwards and slow as Ferelden. And given the Chantry's reluctance to let go of the leash, even if Anora or Alistair managed to change the Chantry's mind on some sort of reform, it would still take months to get the ball rolling.  Witch Hunt is a different matter, since it takes place a couple years later, but Awakenings is very soon after the Blight ends.

I am more concerned with the ignoring of universal, central tenants and events of the story that happen, regardless of race, origin, gender, love interest, ect. The lack of aknowledgement of the boons didn't bother me much, since I personally considered them off screen bonuses.

On a side note, I just reloaded my DC epilogue save, and both Dagna and Burkel's epilogue cards, complete with exalted mareches, showed up. But I have tons of mods and tweaks installed, including ones that deal with the epilogue slides, so that seems to be why. I had one mod that shows both bella and Caitlyn's epilogue cards, since they weren't showing up together if I helped them both, as well as a few other epilogue tweaks.

But as far as boons and epilogues go, they seem to have been written without consideration for future expansions/add ons.

[ejoslin]

Awakening actually had to happen a little bit after Origins, no matter what they said. Six months is impossible, unless dwarves have incredibly short gestation periods. 6 months after Origins, your king or queen CousCous is just getting married and starting their tour of Ferelden, which you would imagine takes more than a week.

Bella and Kaitlyn cards actually are attached so you would have to get both. There was an issue with them (in order to see Bella in Denerim, you had to have Kaitlyn in Denerim as well and the other two ending cards are also linked, though a bit more loosely).

The boon situation is terrible. DA2 is supposed to take a couple of them into consideration, but one of the ones they're importing is bugged to hell.

Oghren does acknowledge if you killed him, btw.

Edit: That's odd that a mod would put that in as there's no indication that it should be there.  But...  ok!  I find other people's decisions interesting for sure!

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 mars 2011 - 07:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
Oghren does acknowledge if you killed him, btw.

Awakening just redeemed itself.

The only semblance of continuity in Awakening involves reviving a corpse  and have it remind you that you killed him. Wonderful.

That said, I enjoy Awakening, as I RP all the loopholes and find adequate reasons. I've only played it with my canon and an Orlesian however. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 mars 2011 - 07:06 .

[Zjarcal]

Lolwut?!?!?!

What does Oghren say? I didn't really die, I just passed out from the alcohol infused sword you were using?

[ejoslin]

Something like that!  Truthfully, I'm not sure as I haven't personally seen it.  But it's been reported!  *grin*  Ok, I should amend what I said to, "I believe that Oghren acknowledges it if you killed him."  I'm too lazy to search youtube atm.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Oghren does acknowledge if you killed him, btw.

Awakening just redeemed itself.

The only semblance of continuity in Awakening involves reviving a corpse  and have it remind you that you killed him. Wonderful.

That said, I enjoy Awakening, as I RP all the loopholes and find adequate reasons. I've only played it with my canon and an Orlesian however. 

Out of curiousity, what were your adequate reasons?

Besides the revelation about Corpse Oghren and the reviving power of alcohol, I found it odd nobody commented on my Warden mage being the Arl of Amaranthine; there is the "bad" Epilogue slide and Rylock when I sided with Anders, but I'm surprised nobody minds an elven mage being a high noble.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Out of curiousity, what were your adequate reasons?

For example, my canon does the merchant guild quests because he wants to be seen as a merchant friendly monarch. And to cultivate support from commoners, as a power base that would weaken the nobility.