251 réponses à ce sujet

[Bullets McDeath]

Well that's why I phrased it as 'a bit grammar-****-esque' and that actually wasn't just directed at you, Obs. And it's the pot calling the kettle black in either scenario as I personally take great pleasure in correcting people when they say "good" when they mean "well", even though that battle was lost ages ago. "Whom" is another one I like to jump on people for, even though I'm guilty of forgetting that rule myself from time to time.

For what it's worth, I basically agree with Obtusifolius.

::flees thread::

Modifié par outlaworacle, 20 mars 2010 - 12:26 .

[Janni-in-VA]

Okay, I'll just weigh in gently here. As a former high school English teacher and one who holds a bachelor of science degree in English (4-year university degree for those who don't know the American education system) and as one who loves the language, there are correct and incorrect ways of pronouncing and writing the language. The correct way is sometimes called -- depending on the current climate -- Standard Edited English, Standard American English, or Proper British English. Yeah, I made that last one up, but it's a nod to our friends across the Pond. Now, aside from the Standard forms, there is dialectual (sometimes called Common) English. Our varied pronunciations of "golem" fall into the later category. According to Standard American English, we should be using the dictionary pronunciation which has been kindly supplied to us by a couple of posters. Dialectual or Common English is a whole 'nother critter, and the mispronunciation we've been talking about falls under that category. I taught and encouraged my students to use Standard American English. However, I never corrected them when they reverted to their dialectual English in normal conversation. I personally used the two forms in very distinct situations. In any formal/teaching situation, I used Standard American English. If I were having a casual conversation with a student, I used Common English.

Perhaps it will lower the flames a little if, while we encourage the correct form, we allow for the difference inherent in our language vis a vis the formal (Standard) vs the casual (Common) form. Both communicate perfectly clearly, it's just that one should be able to move smoothly between the two forms according to the situation at hand.

Just as an example, in another game the armor chest piece is, properly, called "cuirass". I was Anglicizing the pronunciation and saying "CURE-ass". However, in a conversation with someone more knowledgeable about armor, he pronounced it (correctly) as "qwee-RAHS". My niece used to love watching me play that game (she'd pretend to be my helper fairy and we'd have a whole game going on the side). So we talked about the pronunciation, and I told her I'd try to pronounce it correctly. She said, "Okay, but I'm going to keep saying CURE-ass." Needless to say, each knew what the other meant and she knew my pronunciation was correct. I have heard her since pronounce it correctly. There was no harm, no foul.

So, let us learn the correct pronunciation and use it as much as possible while understanding that others will pronounce it differently. AND, understanding that the difference in pronunciation does NOT mean one is stupid, backward, inferior or uneducated. If anyone comments on your correct pronunciation, just say gently, "Yes, that's what I thought too, but then I looked it up."

[Obtusifolius]

Maviarab wrote...

Fan away...please do lol....

In fact outlaw, you made an interesting point that I didnt really pick up on...

Once again, I shall try to demonstrate  what I was trying to teach you before. (and this is intended at no one in particular before tyou all start bursting blood vessels again)....

If your parents had told you that the sky was pink (or cyan in Outlaws case lol) then you would believe it so vehemently that you would probably never be swayed from that point of view...even though you are 'wrong'...

But then again, as I have been saying, wrong according to who? Some stupid wiki entry? An online dictionary?  Favourite film? Please, give me a break.

Again, almost everything you think you know has been either told or taught to you, and my point is (which I seriously cannot believe no one is understanding) is who is to say any of it is correct? Especialy given the number of times so called 'experts' and 'professionals' change their mind on things.

And with that, my head hurts, and Im still feeling like crap, so Im off to bed

Night.

This is not what I've been told, it's called common sense. And why do I have to keep telling you to stop pretending you're Buddha? Because seriously, it sounds like you're just parroting a load of crap you've read out of some Krsna book that you have failed to adequately comprehend.

Edit: And before somebody calls me out, yes I am aware they are two different religions.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 12:31 .

[Obtusifolius]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

Okay, I'll just weigh in gently here. As a former high school English teacher and one who holds a bachelor of science degree in English (4-year university degree for those who don't know the American education system) and as one who loves the language, there are correct and incorrect ways of pronouncing and writing the language. The correct way is sometimes called -- depending on the current climate -- Standard Edited English, Standard American English, or Proper British English. Yeah, I made that last one up, but it's a nod to our friends across the Pond. Now, aside from the Standard forms, there is dialectual (sometimes called Common) English. Our varied pronunciations of "golem" fall into the later category. According to Standard American English, we should be using the dictionary pronunciation which has been kindly supplied to us by a couple of posters. Dialectual or Common English is a whole 'nother critter, and the mispronunciation we've been talking about falls under that category. I taught and encouraged my students to use Standard American English. However, I never corrected them when they reverted to their dialectual English in normal conversation. I personally used the two forms in very distinct situations. In any formal/teaching situation, I used Standard American English. If I were having a casual conversation with a student, I used Common English.
Perhaps it will lower the flames a little if, while we encourage the correct form, we allow for the difference inherent in our language vis a vis the formal (Standard) vs the casual (Common) form. Both communicate perfectly clearly, it's just that one should be able to move smoothly between the two forms according to the situation at hand.
Just as an example, in another game the armor chest piece is, properly, called "cuirass". I was Anglicizing the pronunciation and saying "CURE-ass". However, in a conversation with someone more knowledgeable about armor, he pronounced it (correctly) as "qwee-RAHS". My niece used to love watching me play that game (she'd pretend to be my helper fairy and we'd have a whole game going on the side). So we talked about the pronunciation, and I told her I'd try to pronounce it correctly. She said, "Okay, but I'm going to keep saying CURE-ass." Needless to say, each knew what the other meant and she knew my pronunciation was correct. I have heard her since pronounce it correctly. There was no harm, no foul.
So, let us learn the correct pronunciation and use it as much as possible while understanding that others will pronounce it differently. AND, understanding that the difference in pronunciation does NOT mean one is stupid, backward, inferior or uneducated. If anyone comments on your correct pronunciation, just say gently, "Yes, that's what I thought too, but then I looked it up."

Good post, but it won't be enough for some people (see Maviarab's posts).

Oh, and I always thought cuirass looked like it must be pronounced 'queer ass', which seemed a bit too ridiculous to be true

Maviarab wrote...

Have to add, you notice I am not
throwing around smart comments directed at you Obs? Think that says
something about the two of us no?

The problem with that, Mav, is that you have thrown plenty of smart comments at me, and assumed an irritating and sadly misplaced air of superiority while you've been about it. That's why you're doing my head in.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 12:33 .

[joey_mork84]

This thread has gone stale. Same old back and fourth got old in a hurry. This person saying that person is wrong, that person saying this person is wrong.. Seriously... It's personal preference and personal belief. The "correct" way of saying something will change over time, we have all agreed on that thus far. What may be considered "correct" will, inevitably, be "incorrect" in the future. But, that is completely subjective according to what dictionary you read it in, how it was taught to you (by yourself or another), what country you live in, ect, ect.. That is what Maviarab and I (in our own ways) have been trying to say. Regardless of how one person believes the pronunciation to be correct, another will always say its wrong and both will have "proof" to back it up from various websites, research, dictionaries or whatever.

You could say that the original way of saying a word were correct, but none of us were around when those words were first uttered by a human being, so nobody will ever know for sure (unless by some sci-fi miracle somebody has perfected time travel). Or you could say the popular way of saying something is correct by today's standards.. That, again, depends on what region of the world you are from, your native dialect, and so on and so fourth.. So, seriously, there is no universally accepted "correct" way of saying anything. No matter where you go, or who you talk to, you will always come across someone that says things differently. Your way will undoubtedly be "correct" to you, while the way the other person says it will be "correct" to them.

So, yes, Obtusifolius, I'm sure that where you come from the way you are pronouncing it is correct, according to you, everyone you know, and whatever dictionary your region of the world is using. But to say that someone half way around the world is saying something incorrectly is completely subjective to you, personally. I'm not attacking you, or anything, I'm just making an example. This post is unbiased and not directed to any single person here. It's simply for informative purposes.

And just to throw it out there and put things in perspective, lets say I have founded a company to make cell phones (just an example).. I made the design myself and am the first one to use this particular look. Then, some years later, somebody in another country does the same thing but it comes out differently to better suit them, so they start their own company to make a cell phone with their particular design.. I would consider my design to be the right way, since I made it and everyone in my region uses it. The other person would consider their design to be the correct one because it best suits them and everyone in that region uses his design and agrees. Who is the correct one here? Its the same with the way words are used and pronounced.

As I said, I'm not trying to bust anybody's chops about this, but do you see what I'm trying to say?

EDIT: Sorry for the super long post.. Didn't mean for it to be that long lmao :innocent:

Modifié par joey_mork84, 20 mars 2010 - 01:15 .

[Obtusifolius]

You're sayin it's gotten stale and old because of the back and forth of the same two arguments, and then you present the same stale argument again? Oh no, you can't win that way.



And I have taken into account regional and world accents (which is what your analogy stands for, surely), please read my posts. PLEASE read my posts, because I have actually given an example of what you are saying.



Good night.

[joey_mork84]

EDIT: Nvm..

Modifié par joey_mork84, 20 mars 2010 - 02:24 .

[joey_mork84]

Obtusifolius wrote...

You're sayin it's gotten stale and old because of the back and forth of the same two arguments, and then you present the same stale argument again? Oh no, you can't win that way.

And I have taken into account regional and world accents (which is what your analogy stands for, surely), please read my posts. PLEASE read my posts, because I have actually given an example of what you are saying.

Good night.

I have read your posts and I still don't understand why you are taking this so personally. And I posted that to put things in perspective, not to try to win anything. Try reading it again, without the automatic assumption that I was trying to win anything or attack you. If you had read it properly, I made an argument for BOTH sides and was trying to get ppl to see what was wrong with this entire thread, but I guess you just think the entire world is against you, and if you keep assuming that, you will become right someday.

[joey_mork84]

Just so I don't try to "win" anything or accidentally attack Obtusifolius again, I'm just going to leave this thread entirely. Can't have a rational conversation with someone that narrow-minded and hard-headed and expect anything more from them then the same "I'm right, you're wrong" crap over and over again.

EDIT: Oh, wait, I forgot to re-read all of Obtusifolius' posts again.. better go do that before bed.. or is 'bed' pronounced "be-ad"?

Modifié par joey_mork84, 20 mars 2010 - 01:39 .

[Ruhgar]

Obtusifolius wrote...

Ruhgar wrote...

To be completely honest... the way the say it in game is how I've always heard and said it.

Go figure.

Go figure that... you've been saying it wrong?

Not at all.  If every person I have spoken with has used that pronunciation and I've never heard it said any other way then it is a LEAST a local dialect and NOT incorrect for me to use it.  I am an old school pencil and paper gamer and was taught many of the words by older gamers who had been using them for years.

When I say years.. like.. 25 years.

So you will excuse me if I find your rather rude and hubris filled statement wrong and disregard it.

For the record, even two people from the same section of the same city of the same country can say a word two different ways and BOTH be right.  A dictionary helps codify words but it is NOT a law unto itself.  The young will always come up with new ways to say words or change them to fit their culture.  I recall fondly being told in grade school that I could not use the word "ain't" because it was not in the dictionary... take a look now..

To finish...

I do not pronounce golem incorrectly, and neither does someone else that says it as Goh-lem.

[joey_mork84]

Ruhgar wrote...

Obtusifolius wrote...

Ruhgar wrote...

To be completely honest... the way the say it in game is how I've always heard and said it.

Go figure.

Go figure that... you've been saying it wrong?

Not at all.  If every person I have spoken with has used that pronunciation and I've never heard it said any other way then it is a LEAST a local dialect and NOT incorrect for me to use it.  I am an old school pencil and paper gamer and was taught many of the words by older gamers who had been using them for years.

When I say years.. like.. 25 years.

So you will excuse me if I find your rather rude and hubris filled statement wrong and disregard it.

For the record, even two people from the same section of the same city of the same country can say a word two different ways and BOTH be right.  A dictionary helps codify words but it is NOT a law unto itself.  The young will always come up with new ways to say words or change them to fit their culture.  I recall fondly being told in grade school that I could not use the word "ain't" because it was not in the dictionary... take a look now..

To finish...

I do not pronounce golem incorrectly, and neither does someone else that says it as Goh-lem.

THANK YOU! At least someone else on here gets it. lol

Modifié par joey_mork84, 20 mars 2010 - 03:06 .

[AlanC9]

Maviarab, this has been really amusing, but it's time to lay the cards on the table.

Do you have an actual position? If so, what is it?

Ruhgar's is actually intellectually respectable, if you want to give it a shot.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 mars 2010 - 03:55 .

[AlanC9]

Ruhgar wrote...
Not at all.  If every person I have spoken with has used that pronunciation and I've never heard it said any other way then it is a LEAST a local dialect and NOT incorrect for me to use it.  I am an old school pencil and paper gamer and was taught many of the words by older gamers who had been using them for years.

When I say years.. like.. 25 years.

Didn't I tell you all that this pronunciation is all D&D's fault?

My gaming group said "golem" right, but that's because we had some Jews around who already knew the word. I use "right" because in 1980 the DA:O pronunciation was just plain wrong. But now,  I gotta go with Ruhgar. It's too late to stamp out the DA:O pronunciation even if we wanted to.

[Kekse2k]

Just my two cents, but when I first heard it pronounced as it was within the game, I was a bit surprised, but to me, it was like potato/potato. Erm, I'm sure I don't have to explain that. But to say that it is mispronounced and incorrect is a bit over the top, in my opinion (I don't expect anyone to conform to anyone's opinion aside from their own, if they have one). Language always changes and is far too flexible to ask that it be set to a rigid system. Like...a caste system. But not.

[Godak]

Ruhgar wrote...

For the record, even two people from the same section of the same city of the same country can say a word two different ways and BOTH be right.  A dictionary helps codify words but it is NOT a law unto itself.  The young will always come up with new ways to say words or change them to fit their culture.  I recall fondly being told in grade school that I could not use the word "ain't" because it was not in the dictionary... take a look now..

Excuse my language, but...Utter bullsh!t. Just because many people know how to say something wrong does NOT mean that they are right. There will always be correct and incorrect ways to say things. I'm not saying that we should actively encourage people to use proper pronunciations: to the contrary, I think that incorrect pronunciations add flavor to language. However, saying that you are right because it is impossible to be wrong is a foolish notion, and your time would be better spent bashing your head against an iron wall.

Also, "ain't" has been in use since the 1700s. Your teachers in grade school must have suffered from a severe case of idiot. I'm sorry.

[Obtusifolius]

Ruhgar wrote...

Obtusifolius wrote...

Ruhgar wrote...

To be completely honest... the way the say it in game is how I've always heard and said it.

Go figure.

Go figure that... you've been saying it wrong?

Not at all.  If every person I have spoken with has used that pronunciation and I've never heard it said any other way then it is a LEAST a local dialect and NOT incorrect for me to use it.  I am an old school pencil and paper gamer and was taught many of the words by older gamers who had been using them for years.

When I say years.. like.. 25 years.

So you will excuse me if I find your rather rude and hubris filled statement wrong and disregard it.

For the record, even two people from the same section of the same city of the same country can say a word two different ways and BOTH be right.  A dictionary helps codify words but it is NOT a law unto itself.  The young will always come up with new ways to say words or change them to fit their culture.  I recall fondly being told in grade school that I could not use the word "ain't" because it was not in the dictionary... take a look now..

To finish...

I do not pronounce golem incorrectly, and neither does someone else that says it as Goh-lem.

Ha ha, I'm sorry but that is not how local dialects work. And I have taken accents into account, see previous posts.

And I agree that new words are constantly coming into existence, and have admitted that 'gollum' will likely become the correct spelling one day. However, in standard southern British English (which is what we are talking about here, lest we forget) it is pronounced 'go-lem'.

Yes, people are permitted to pronounce it differently if they so choose, but if they are unaware of the correct pronunciation then they are still pronouncing it incorrectly. Standardisation exists for a reason. It is exactly the same as standardisation in spelling, it exists so we can actually understand eachother. If everyone pronounced words however they pleased then quite soon NO ONE would be able to speak to anyone else, because we wouldn't be able to understand eachother.

joey_mork84 wrote...

Just so I don't try to "win" anything or accidentally attack Obtusifolius again, I'm just going to
leave this thread entirely. Can't have a rational conversation with someone that narrow-minded and hard-headed and expect anything more from them then the same "I'm right, you're wrong" crap over and over
again.

EDIT: Oh, wait, I forgot to re-read all of Obtusifolius'
posts again.. better go do that before bed.. or is 'bed' pronounced
"be-ad"? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

Yes, please leave, your inability to comprehend logic is growing tiresome. I'm sorry if I misread your post, but the gist that I got was that you were bringing up accents, which I had already covered. And you named me by name, which is what gave me the impression your comments were directed at me.

Edit: And I'm not 'narrow-minded and hard-headed', I just know more about the subject than you do.

As for Mav, it is pretty shocking that you consider yourself an intelligent person. I have taken your view into consideration, but you continue to misunderstand what I am saying. That's right. You misunderstand. That is why I say you are an idiot. I will sum up my views in a long post, all in one place, so that people can try and understand what I am saying. Maybe I have expressed myself badly. My boyfriend needs to use the computer, but I shall be back soon.

Maviarab wrote...

Janni....excellent post, but again, (if your read my posts), everything you know, your degree's etc, are just
the product of what you have been told and taught. I could argue your post by saying Americans do not speak English at all, you speak a slang version of English, but I do not wish to start a continental war here

So... all education is useless and false, and should be disbelieved? Ha, that's a good excuse for knowing absolutely nothing.

And by calling American English 'not... English at all', you have kind of undermined your own entire argument. Three cheers for open-mindedness!

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 12:05 .

[Obtusifolius]

In fact, forget that. I shall ask only one question. Do you believe that this pronunciational freedom should be applied to all words? Do you believe that every person should pronounce every word however they would like it to be pronounced? If you answer no then you are a hypocrite. If you answer yes, then you must see that we would be living in a world where communication, other than through body language and unintelligible sounds, would be impossible. Impossible.

Please answer this question for me, Mav (or anyone else, for that matter), and then we shall see.

Edit: Yes, I'm still patiently waiting for someone to answer my question... any takers?

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 12:54 .

[Ruhgar]

Instead of directly combating what is obviously a drive to purposely misunderstand me and my point I'll just say this...



'Tis the way it shall be, for now an' fore'ver more, fo' shizzle?



(Waits to watch heads explode.)

[Obtusifolius]

Ruhgar wrote...

Instead of directly combating what is obviously a drive to purposely misunderstand me and my point I'll just say this...

'Tis the way it shall be, for now an' fore'ver more, fo' shizzle?

(Waits to watch heads explode.)

If I am misunderstanding (and why would I do that purposely? If I am misunderstanding, it only makes me look stupid), then please put me straight. Do you refute my arguments?

Edit: And I thought my last post was pretty civil, so perhaps we should try to keep it that way, yes?

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 11:57 .

[Koralis]

Obtusifolius wrote...

joey_mork84 wrote...

They do speak English, but its their variation on English. Just wanted to throw that out there. Don't get offended by it.

No, they speak English. Do you truly believe those BioWare folks all sat around and said... 'Hey, here's a great plan... let's make all our characters speak English, the humans with English accents, but one thing: let's say they pronounce Golem differently... like 'gollum', kinda...! Wouldn't that be a great idea? High fives!'

Because everyone in the united states says words in exactly the same way....  no one says "rufe" vs "roof" or "wihcad" vs "wicked", and no one at all says "yall" instead of "you all", even though they know how to say the two words seperately. Yes, we have to assume that there's only one way that a word can be pronounced, and that should conform to the oxford-english dictionary.  Dialects exist.  Get used to it.

People know what a golem is, so they called it a golem, instead of a Dwarf-Animated Construct.   That doesn't mean that they're forced to use the pronunciation you like.  It's not as if people are saying, "I don't understand what they're talking about with these things!   They mean a mishapen character from Lord of the Rings?"

For the record, I always say "gollum", even though I know the "GoLem" pronunciation.  It's easier, and that's where my mind goes unless I'm making a conscious decision to pronounce it otherwise.   I do similar things with other words.  To insist that people not do that sort of things is just elitist snobbery, frankly.

Modifié par Koralis, 20 mars 2010 - 12:37 .

[Obtusifolius]

Koralis wrote...

Obtusifolius wrote...

joey_mork84 wrote...

They do speak English, but its their variation on English. Just wanted to throw that out there. Don't get offended by it.

No, they speak English. Do you truly believe those BioWare folks all sat around and said... 'Hey, here's a great plan... let's make all our characters speak English, the humans with English accents, but one thing: let's say they pronounce Golem differently... like 'gollum', kinda...! Wouldn't that be a great idea? High fives!'

Because everyone in the united states says words in exactly the same way....  no one says "rufe" vs "roof" or "wihcad" vs "wicked", and no one at all says "yall" instead of "you all", even though they know how to say the two words seperately. Yes, we have to assume that there's only one way that a word can be pronounced, and that should conform to the oxford-english dictionary.  Dialects exist.  Get used to it.

People know what a golem is, so they called it a golem, instead of a Dwarf-Animated Construct.   That doesn't mean that they're forced to use the pronunciation you like.  It's not as if people are saying, "I don't understand what they're talking about with these things!   They mean a mishapen character from Lord of the Rings?"

For the record, I always say "gollum", even though I know the "GoLem" pronunciation.  It's easier, and that's where my mind goes unless I'm making a conscious decision to pronounce it otherwise.   I do similar things with other words.  To insist that people not do that sort of things is just elitist snobbery, frankly.

I know dialect exists, I am a language student. We are not speaking about dialect, however, and if I have to say one more time that I have covered accents in another post then I am going to vomit. Furthermore, the 'dialect' that is spoken in Dragon Age is standard English with a sprinkling of altered American pronunciation ('route' and 'progress') and so dialect is irrelevant here anyway. Being a standard English speaker myself, I believe I am more than qualified to judge.

It is not a pronunciation I like, it is the correct pronunciation. Perhaps you would care to read all my posts before commenting. I have not insisted that people do not say it, I have insisted that it is an incorrect pronunciation. Now please, do me a favour and read my posts.

And just to be clear, here is the gist of my previous post on accents: If speakers of a particular accent/dialect pronounce the diphthong 'oa' with a short 'o', then there is no reason why they would not pronounce golem with a short 'o', as in 'Gollum'. Speakers of accents who typically pronounce the diphthong 'oa' as 'oa' (for example, every ****ing character in Dragon Age: Origins), however, will never correctly pronounce golem with a short 'o'. Got it?

Wow, it's shocking that people believe I would be arguing my point so vehemently if I didn't know what I was talking about.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 01:01 .

[Grimgor79]

Oh my god people. We're really arguing over the correct pronunciation of a fictional creature in a video game?



At this point who is "right" and who is "wrong" does'nt really matter anymore. There has already been entirely too much energy wasted and frustration gained (not everyone) over a damn fake-ass Golem, LMAO.



I do love Shale and Golem's in general but this is crazy. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Obtusifolius]

Maviarab wrote...

You do bknow what your talking about Obs, the point and fact of the matter is you cannot prove you are correct and everyone is an idiot. And calling peole idiots, well, and you question my intelligence> I am not the one bandying around swear words throughout this thread am I? shows real intelligence that my dear

As for your question to which you seem so onsessed that I or someone else answers, I will neither say yes or no (and I know thats goinf to really rile you lmao), because as I have said numerous times in my numerous posts, it is futile to try and say one pronunciation is correct over another. And that, is something your just not accepting or understanding, language student or not.

Eh? Your hypocrisy is astounding. You have repeatedly implied my naivety, and repeatedly asserted your own correctness. You do not answer my question and yet still you say I am not understanding. Wow. Just... wow. You must answer my question to prove your point. You cannot sit on the fence on this because to do so is not an option. Either back up your point, or kindly get out of my face and stop wasting my time.

And I have noticed you have been getting **** in other threads for the mindless crap you have been spouting on other subjects, so I think it can safely be said that you have not the remotest clue what you are talking about, and not only when it comes to language.

And as for proving people to be idiotic - I think you are doing the job splendidly on your own, rendering any attempts of my own superfluous.

Edit: And please, present to me some of these 'variables'. I have taken accent into account, so... yes, variables, please? Some examples to back up your assertions? I have presented my own examples, and having shown more evidence than you have (although still it ain't much) I would say that my argument makes for more convincing reading than yours does.

Edit 2: And by refusing to answer the question you automatically lose, by the way.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 01:50 .