251 réponses à ce sujet

[Koralis]

Obtusifolius wrote...
I know dialect exists, I am a language student. We are not speaking about dialect, however, and if I have to say one more time that I have covered accents in another post then I am going to vomit. Furthermore, the 'dialect' that is spoken in Dragon Age is standard English with a sprinkling of altered American pronunciation ('route' and 'progress') and so dialect is irrelevant here anyway. Being a standard English speaker myself, I believe I am more than qualified to judge.

You're committing a logical fallacy.  Just because MOST words conform to a dialect that you're familiar with does NOT mean that ALL words must conform to the same dialect.  If a golem itself says the word as "gollum", I'd say that's a pretty definitive example of how the word is pronounced in this setting.  It is a dialectic variance.

It is not a pronunciation I like, it is the correct pronunciation. Perhaps you would care to read all my posts before commenting. I have not insisted that people do not say it, I have insisted that it is an incorrect pronunciation. Now please, do me a favour and read my posts.

Again.. a logical fallacy.  It's the correct pronunciation AS YOU BELIEVE THE WORD SHOULD BE PRONOUNCED.  If the game had elves pronouncing their race as "Aelves", then that's the correct pronunciation in that context.

Wow, it's shocking that people believe I would be arguing my point so vehemently if I didn't know what I was talking about.

Academic snobbery.   You know better than the game makers, etc, etc.

Modifié par Koralis, 20 mars 2010 - 01:51 .

[Obtusifolius]

Koralis wrote...

Obtusifolius wrote...
I know dialect exists, I am a language student. We are not speaking about dialect, however, and if I have to say one more time that I have covered accents in another post then I am going to vomit. Furthermore, the 'dialect' that is spoken in Dragon Age is standard English with a sprinkling of altered American pronunciation ('route' and 'progress') and so dialect is irrelevant here anyway. Being a standard English speaker myself, I believe I am more than qualified to judge.

You're committing a logical fallacy.  Just because MOST words conform to a dialect that you're familiar with does NOT mean that ALL words must conform to the same dialect.  If a golem itself says the word as "gollum", I'd say that's a pretty definitive example of how the word is pronounced in this setting.

It's not a golem though, is it? It's a voice actor. It is the Standard English dialect. Why would they change only one word? It is not a logical fallacy, it is correct pronunciation. See The Dictionary. Here you go, a quote from a few pages back:

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's see if I've got this
right.... the native language is being translated into English in our
games. Except for one solitary word, "golem," which , though strikingly
similar to the English word "golem," is actually completely unrelated
to the English word and only sounds like it and is spelled identically
to it because of random chance......

Sorry. Strong I am with suspension of disbelief, but not that strong.

Koralis wrote...

Again.. a logical fallacy.  It's the correct pronunciation AS YOU BELIEVE THE WORD SHOULD BE PRONOUNCED.  If the game had elves pronouncing their race as "Aelves", then that's the correct pronunciation in that context.

Please see the above post. And please stop talking about logical fallacies. All that is needed is a little linguistic knowledge.

Academic snobbery.   You know better than the game makers, etc, etc.

Yes, I know more about language than the game makers. They made a couple of other grammatical errors also, but let's not go into this here. It is not academic snobbery to know what you're talking about.

It is more logical to assume that the voice actors and game developers got the pronunciation wrong accidentally than that they knew the correct pronunciation but decided to change it to what everyone who doesn't know how to pronounce Golem thinks it is. Use your brain and you will realise this.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 02:03 .

[Koralis]

Obtusifolius wrote...

Koralis wrote...

You're committing a logical fallacy.  Just because MOST words conform to a dialect that you're familiar with does NOT mean that ALL words must conform to the same dialect.  If a golem itself says the word as "gollum", I'd say that's a pretty definitive example of how the word is pronounced in this setting.

It's not a golem though, is it? It's a voice actor. It is the Standard English Dialect. Why would they change only one word? It is not a logical fallacy, it is correct pronunciation. See The Dictionary. Here you go, a quote from a few pages back:

It's a golem.  If the game creators wanted it pronounced the other way, they'd tell the actor to do the scene again.  The golem pronounced the word the way the game creators wanted it pronounced.  If there was a single actor that pronounced it that way, then you could say that it was a screw up.  The consistancy indicates that this is a conscious decision.  Whether that's because that's the way David Gaider says the word or not, thats the way the inhabitants of the world are pronouncing it.

The Fereldan English Accent varies from your Standard English Dialect in that fashion.  It's plain.  It's obvious.  It's consistant.  The cause is irrelevant.

Yes, I know more about language than the game makers. They made a couple of other grammatical errors also, but let's not go into this here. It is not academic snobbery to know what you're talking about.

It's academic snobbery to assume that all creative decisions have to conform to your area of specialty.


It'd be like an artist criticising The Matrix for shooting all of the cyberspace scenes with a green tint.  Just because something doesn't conform to a "standard" doesn't make it wrong.  Consistancy within itself makes it correct for that setting and purpose.

Modifié par Koralis, 20 mars 2010 - 02:10 .

[Obtusifolius]

[quote]Maviarab wrote...

[quote]Eh? Your hypocrisy is astounding. You have repeatedly implied my naivety, and repeatedly asserted your own correctness. You do not answer my question and yet still you say I am not understanding. Wow. Just... wow. You must answer my question to prove your point. You cannot sit on the fence on this because to do so is not an option. Either back up your point, or kindly get out of my face and stop wasting my time.[/quote]
Why is it not an option? I have no feeling or thought on it either way. as I said, I am not so narrow minded as to think my pronunciation is correct when i have no real frame of referance (and quoting dictionaries is not proof btw)
[quote]And I have noticed you have been getting **** in other threads for the mindless crap you have been spouting on other subjects, so I think it can safely be said that you have not the remotest clue what you are talking about, and not only when it comes to language.[/quote]
As you are a supposed language student (though the word student is key I think) then you should know the word 'subjective'
[quote]And as for proving people to be idiotic - I think you are doing the job splendidly on your own, rendering any attempts of my own superfluous.[/quote]
heh, I am one of the few people in this topic that actually has the open mindedness and 'wisdom' to realise that what I know, maynot be factual or correct. Also, I am sure plenty of people would reverse your comment there. And to comment on one of your previous comments, intelligence and wisdom are very seperate entities. As a member of Mensa (sure you know what that is) I can prove my intelligence, as for wisdom, wisdom can only be attained through age and experience, and that unfortunatly, no matter how much you wish to argue, is a fact.
[quote]Edit: And please, present to me some of these 'variables'. I have taken accent into account, so... yes, variables, please? Some examples to back up your assertions? I have presented my own examples, and having shown more evidence than you have (although still it ain't much) I would say that my argument makes for more convincing reading than yours does./quote]
Ahh yes, the variables. You have taken them into account to an extent yes, then dismissed them repeatdly because 'you are correct' and everyone else 'is an idiot'...and you say your not narrow minded?
[quote]Edit 2: And by refusing to answer the question you automatically lose, by the way.[/quote]
hahaha....semantics my dear sweet Obs, and a cop out when you know your losing an argument you could never win in the first place.

Btw, I have a question too, as you come accross as a typical southerner, what exactly is standardized southern English? lmao....oh dear oh dear oh dear.....

Its fun though, I'll give you that Obs...[/quote]

Oh my God. I will let this mess of a post speak for itself, but first: Standard English, heard of it? That's what I'm talking about. Secondly, subjectivity has no place in this discussion because what we are talking about is the objectively correct way to pronounce a word.

I have no more time to waste on you, because your stupidity appears to know no bounds, and it is growing very frustrating trying to get through to you. Good day.

EDit: And I have not dismissed other accents. If you still cannot grasp that, then please, go back to bed, or even better - back to school.

And no, I don't know why the quotes are messing up.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 02:11 .

[Obtusifolius]

Koralis wrote...


It's a golem.  If the game creators wanted it pronounced the other way, they'd tell the actor to do the scene again.  The golem pronounced the word the way the game creators wanted it pronounced.  If there was a single actor that pronounced it that way, then you could say that it was a screw up.  The consistancy indicates that this is a conscious decision.  Whether that's because that's the way David Gaider says the word or not, thats the way the inhabitants of the world are pronouncing it.

The Fereldan English Accent varies from your Standard English Dialect in that fashion.  It's plain.  It's obvious.  It's consistant.  The cause is irrelevant.

No, it isn't consistent. It is inconsistent with the rest of the dialogue. See the quote I supplied in my previous post. The OP was pointing out that, in the game, the word is mispronounced, and yes, it is mispronounced. I have already explained why I believe it to be a mistake, rather than deliberate. If I believed it were deliberate then I would be satisfied that it was the 'correct' pronunciation of their own invented word. However, I do not believe it was deliberate.

It's academic snobbery to assume that all creative decisions have to conform to your area of specialty.

See above. I do not believe it to be a creative decision. If you thought I was arguing against it as an artisitic decision then we have been misunderstanding eachother.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 02:12 .

[Obtusifolius]

Maviarab wrote...

You constantly refer to standardized 'southern' English, which is why i questioned it. I know very well what standardized English is (whether I agree with it or not)....
subjectivity does matter, as you referred to my other posts in other threads, and your comments are, as I say, subjective. The fact you conveniently forgot or ignored the post in which I replied using that word says a lot.
You know, for a language student, you don't really appear to have a good grasp on the meaning of certain words
And ok, run away then, why is that not a suprise?

Conveniently ignored? You've conveniently ignored almost every post I've made!

And you cannot agree or disagree with Standard English, it just is.

The reason I say that you must answer my question is this: If you do not answer yes then you are not following through with your own argument, and so you are rendering it invalid. That is why I say you lose the argument.

And which word have I failed to grasp the meaning of, exactly? Southern? Last I looked, I was born and bred in Southern England. So yes, my accent can be described as southern English.

And I am not running away, it is just that I am about to go bald with frustration at trying to reason with you. Even those who disagree with me would not agree that you are making any sense, or producing valid counter-arguments. I promise you.

Edit: And for your information, there is no reason why a language student should even have a decent vocabulary. Many in my class do not. So please, leave my education out of it. Whether I know or do not know the meanings of certain words is all down to me and my own learning. Also, I have been taught nothing about different accents, so you can stop with your 'you just believe everything you're told at school' malarkey, because I am naturally good at noticing language and accent patterns. That is why I am doing the course, not the other way around.

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 02:34 .

[Koralis]

Obtusifolius wrote...

Koralis wrote...


It's a golem.  If the game creators wanted it pronounced the other way, they'd tell the actor to do the scene again.  The golem pronounced the word the way the game creators wanted it pronounced.  If there was a single actor that pronounced it that way, then you could say that it was a screw up.  The consistancy indicates that this is a conscious decision.  Whether that's because that's the way David Gaider says the word or not, thats the way the inhabitants of the world are pronouncing it.

The Fereldan English Accent varies from your Standard English Dialect in that fashion.  It's plain.  It's obvious.  It's consistant.  The cause is irrelevant.

No, it isn't consistent. It is inconsistent with the rest of the dialogue.

Again.  Irrelevant.  Pay attention.   It is a consistant use of the same pronounciation.  Inconsistancy with standard english is immaterial because it's just possible that they do not wish the word to be consistant. 

If different actors were pronouncing things all sorts of different ways, then you can say that the actors screwed up.  If the actors are all consistant, then it is what it is (as much as I loath the phrase...)

See the quote I supplied in my previous post. The OP was pointing out that, in the game, the word is mispronounced, and yes, it is mispronounced. I have already explained why I believe it to be a mistake, rather than deliberate. If I believed it were deliberate then I would be satisfied that it was the 'correct' pronunciation of their own invented word. However, I do not believe it was deliberate.

And here we go!  Finally.  YOU BELIEVE.  This means that it's YOUR OPINION on the intent of the creators.  That means that YOU COULD BE WRONG.

See above. I do not believe it to be a creative decision. If you thought I was arguing against it as an artisitic decision then we have been misunderstanding eachother.

I understand that you refuse to acknowlege that it's an artistic decision.  That doesn't mean that it wasn't.  Hence, declaring the word mispronounced is basically impossible to support, since no one knows how they intended to pronounce it.  That there's a discrepancy with the standard english isn't a question.  The question is whether that's an error or not.  You insist that it is.   It may not be.  No matter how many degrees that you possess, that doesn't influence the intent and vision.  The consistancy of usage within the game indicates to me that it was deliberate, however.  I may be wrong too.   If David Gaider shows up int he thread and says "Yeah, we screwed up... I intended them to say Go Lem.  Oops." then we'll all know.  Unless that happens though, any declarations on the subject amount to opinion.

[Obtusifolius]

Koralis wrote...

Obtusifolius wrote...

Koralis wrote...


It's a golem.  If the game creators wanted it pronounced the other way, they'd tell the actor to do the scene again.  The golem pronounced the word the way the game creators wanted it pronounced.  If there was a single actor that pronounced it that way, then you could say that it was a screw up.  The consistancy indicates that this is a conscious decision.  Whether that's because that's the way David Gaider says the word or not, thats the way the inhabitants of the world are pronouncing it.

The Fereldan English Accent varies from your Standard English Dialect in that fashion.  It's plain.  It's obvious.  It's consistant.  The cause is irrelevant.

No, it isn't consistent. It is inconsistent with the rest of the dialogue.

Again.  Irrelevant.  Pay attention.   It is a consistant use of the same pronounciation.  Inconsistancy with standard english is immaterial because it's just possible that they do not wish the word to be consistant. 

If different actors were pronouncing things all sorts of different ways, then you can say that the actors screwed up.  If the actors are all consistant, then it is what it is (as much as I loath the phrase...)

See the quote I supplied in my previous post. The OP was pointing out that, in the game, the word is mispronounced, and yes, it is mispronounced. I have already explained why I believe it to be a mistake, rather than deliberate. If I believed it were deliberate then I would be satisfied that it was the 'correct' pronunciation of their own invented word. However, I do not believe it was deliberate.

And here we go!  Finally.  YOU BELIEVE.  This means that it's YOUR OPINION on the intent of the creators.  That means that YOU COULD BE WRONG.

See above. I do not believe it to be a creative decision. If you thought I was arguing against it as an artisitic decision then we have been misunderstanding eachother.

I understand that you refuse to acknowlege that it's an artistic decision.  That doesn't mean that it wasn't.  Hence, declaring the word mispronounced is basically impossible to support, since no one knows how they intended to pronounce it.  That there's a discrepancy with the standard english isn't a question.  The question is whether that's an error or not.  You insist that it is.   It may not be.  No matter how many degrees that you possess, that doesn't influence the intent and vision.  The consistancy of usage within the game indicates to me that it was deliberate, however.  I may be wrong too.   If David Gaider shows up int he thread and says "Yeah, we screwed up... I intended them to say Go Lem.  Oops." then we'll all know.  Unless that happens though, any declarations on the subject amount to opinion.

Most people, as evidenced in this thread, do not know the correct pronunciation of the word 'Golem', and that is why I believe it was accidental. I have also supplied you with other reasons, so you now have all my 'evidence'. However, you are entitled to believe otherwise. I didn't realise we were talking about creative decisions, because the debate had moved way past that, and I am not going to argue with you that it was a mistake if you want to believe that it wasn't.

If it was a creative decision then that is fine, honestly, and that is not what I am getting all infuriated about anyway. So, yes... agree that we have different opinions on the matter?

[Kekse2k]

Obtusifolius wrote...

In fact, forget that. I shall ask only one question. Do you believe that this pronunciational freedom should be applied to all words? Do you believe that every person should pronounce every word however they would like it to be pronounced? If you answer no then you are a hypocrite. If you answer yes, then you must see that we would be living in a world where communication, other than through body language and unintelligible sounds, would be impossible. Impossible.

Please answer this question for me, Mav (or anyone else, for that matter), and then we shall see.

Edit: Yes, I'm still patiently waiting for someone to answer my question... any takers?

That's a ridiculous question. I'm going to feel like a nerd here (then again, I'm on this forum)...but "only a Sith deals in absolutes." Simply because there is a certain flexibility to certain words does not mean there is a certain flexibility for every word. Look at the rudimentary "I before e" rule. 'I' before 'e' except after 'c' or when sounded like 'a' like in 'neighbor' and 'weigh' and...some 'weird' cases or some such (never had much cause to remember the rest). There are exceptions to every rule, and this instance seems more like the exception rather than the rule. Much like potato/potato and tomato/tomato. Or even herb/herb. Or my name, Michelle/Michelle.
The root of it all is in semantics, really, and I'm surprised this has gone on this long, especially considering this is not the first thread regarding Ferelden's use of the word "golem." If I recall correctly, the other thread I saw went on to a greater length than I expected with just as much conflict.

[Obtusifolius]

Kekse2k wrote...

Obtusifolius wrote...

In fact, forget that. I shall ask only one question. Do you believe that this pronunciational freedom should be applied to all words? Do you believe that every person should pronounce every word however they would like it to be pronounced? If you answer no then you are a hypocrite. If you answer yes, then you must see that we would be living in a world where communication, other than through body language and unintelligible sounds, would be impossible. Impossible.

Please answer this question for me, Mav (or anyone else, for that matter), and then we shall see.

Edit: Yes, I'm still patiently waiting for someone to answer my question... any takers?

That's a ridiculous question. I'm going to feel like a nerd here (then again, I'm on this forum)...but "only a Sith deals in absolutes." Simply because there is a certain flexibility to certain words does not mean there is a certain flexibility for every word. Look at the rudimentary "I before e" rule. 'I' before 'e' except after 'c' or when sounded like 'a' like in 'neighbor' and 'weigh' and...some 'weird' cases or some such (never had much cause to remember the rest). There are exceptions to every rule, and this instance seems more like the exception rather than the rule. Much like potato/potato and tomato/tomato. Or even herb/herb. Or my name, Michelle/Michelle.
The root of it all is in semantics, really, and I'm surprised this has gone on this long, especially considering this is not the first thread regarding Ferelden's use of the word "golem." If I recall correctly, the other thread I saw went on to a greater length than I expected with just as much conflict.

Then explain to me why there should be flexibility for some and not for others. If Mav's arguments are to be carried to their logical conclusion then it has to apply to all words. The dictionary supplies three pronunciations, none of which are 'gollum'. The dictionary supplies more than one pronunciation for tomato, and for 'route' and for 'herb'. (Edit: Oops, I wrote definition, but I meant pronunciation )

And agreed, it is a silly question, but then I am dealing with a very silly person (not you).

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[Kekse2k]

It's not that there *should* be flexibility, it's just that there is. I once saw...something, oh I don't remember what it is...I think it must have been an episode of Fry & Laurie, but I really am not sure, wherein the potato/potato issue came up. Instead of the classic "potato/potaHto" argument, however, they took it to another level where they came up with an entirely new pronunciation: POE-titoe (I can't exactly claim to be an expert in phonetic representation, so I hope what I just wrote makes sense). The one employing this pronunciation seemed rather surprised that his colleague paused the conversation just to remark on that word.

I was madly amused by this new pronunciation, but despite my best efforts, I can't incorporate it into my vocabulary. Every time I say potato, I say poe-TAE-toe. It's just how it is. The variations don't come about simply because someone somewhere is attempting to revolutionize the language. It's just the ease of speech. I don't mean to imply that the English language, or any language, should be manipulated to suit our own personal preferences, but in a way, it is, because nobody's (or, at least, a very small minority) intention is to communicate incoherently.

Now, on a less serious note (copied and pasted, of course):
"You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!
But oh! If we call the whole thing off,
Then we must part.
And oh! If we ever part,
Then that might break my heart!
So, if you like pajamas and I like pajahmas,
I'll wear pajamas and give up pajahmas.
For we know we need each other,
So we better call the calling off off.
Let's call the whole thing off!"

How romantic xD

And on a more nerdy note (this thread piqued my curiosity to the extent that I actually Googled "golem pronunciation"):

http://bmgf.bulbagar...ead.php?t=27908

It seems to me that the inconsistencies with this word are relatively less "fleshed-out" so to speak, compared to other words, but then again, how many discussions are there that involve "golem"?

Modifié par Kekse2k, 20 mars 2010 - 03:10 .

[Viglin]

Hrodberht wrote...

Every character that says the word golem in DAO is mispronouncing it.  They all say the word as gollum, when it's actually pronounced go-lem.  Pretty sloppy on the part of the dialogue writers, or whoever told the voice actors how to say it.  Ok, there actually is a variant pronunciation in Hebrew, but that isn't gollum either.

A boring day in the basement?

Where is it written that in a FANTASY GAME everything must belong to what we believe in the real world?

Modifié par Viglin, 20 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[Mooner911]

Wow. Much ado...

As an english speaker who prefers tradition, I've always been sensitive to changes (not errors!) in pronunciation and definition. At one time I dwelled in the camp that resists change until I watched an interview with one of the top experts from Merriam-Webster. Much to my irritation he celebrated the ever changing form and flow of the most volatile language on the globe: english. He helped me realize that, because english is influenced by a never ending onslaught of regional, cultural, technological, and non-english sources, rules and laws that define and construct the language have all but disappeared.

There's a fella on TV who forcasts our weather named Dubois. He pronounces his name do-boyz.

After moving to a new location in NA, it seems the correct pronunciation for 'foyer' is foy-yer.

The only time I heard golem pronounced go-lum was in the 'Dune' series of movies.

Even Star Trek (Voyager) accepts the (mis?)use of Shakespear's "to have your cake and eat it too".

'Impact' is used in every instance where 'affect' was once the correct word.

And on and on... There's no stopping this madness. Accept it and move on.

[Obtusifolius]

Kekse2k wrote...

It's not that there *should* be flexibility, it's just that there is. I once saw...something, oh I don't remember what it is...I think it must have been an episode of Fry & Laurie, but I really am not sure, wherein the potato/potato issue came up. Instead of the classic "potato/potaHto" argument, however, they took it to another level where they came up with an entirely new pronunciation: POE-titoe (I can't exactly claim to be an expert in phonetic representation, so I hope what I just wrote makes sense). The one employing this pronunciation seemed rather surprised that his colleague paused the conversation just to remark on that word.

I was madly amused by this new pronunciation, but despite my best efforts, I can't incorporate it into my vocabulary. Every time I say potato, I say poe-TAE-toe. It's just how it is. The variations don't come about simply because someone somewhere is attempting to revolutionize the language. It's just the ease of speech. I don't mean to imply that the English language, or any language, should be manipulated to suit our own personal preferences, but in a way, it is, because nobody's (or, at least, a very small minority) intention is to communicate incoherently.

Now, on a less serious note (copied and pasted, of course):
"You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!
But oh! If we call the whole thing off,
Then we must part.
And oh! If we ever part,
Then that might break my heart!
So, if you like pajamas and I like pajahmas,
I'll wear pajamas and give up pajahmas.
For we know we need each other,
So we better call the calling off off.
Let's call the whole thing off!"

How romantic xD

And on a more nerdy note (this thread piqued my curiosity to the extent that I actually Googled "golem pronunciation"):

http://bmgf.bulbagar...ead.php?t=27908

It seems to me that the inconsistencies with this word are relatively less "fleshed-out" so to speak, compared to other words, but then again, how many discussions are there that involve "golem"?

Yes, but all these pronunciations are found in the dictionary. 'Gollum' is not, as it is an incorrect pronunciation. I am well aware of flexibility in language, and of language change, language shift, language death, language suicide, language murder, language extinction, the lot. I welcome linguistic change, but for now I assert that 'go-lem' is the correct pronunciation. This may not always be the case, but for the time being it is.

And I'm just checking out your link now Edit 2: I like your link.

Mooner911 wrote...

Wow. Much ado...
As an english
speaker who prefers tradition, I've always been sensitive to changes
(not errors!) in pronunciation and definition. At one time I dwelled in
the camp that resists change until I watched an interview with one of
the top experts from Merriam-Webster. Much to my irritation he
celebrated the ever changing form and flow of the most volatile
language on the globe: english. He helped me realize that, because
english is influenced by a never ending onslaught of regional,
cultural, technological, and non-english sources, rules and laws that
define and construct the language have all but disappeared.
There's a fella on TV who forcasts our weather named Dubois. He pronounces his name do-boyz.
After moving to a new location in NA, it seems the correct pronunciation for 'foyer' is foy-yer.
The only time I heard golem pronounced go-lum was in the 'Dune' series of movies.
Even Star Trek (Voyager) accepts the (mis?)use of Shakespear's "to have your cake and eat it too".
'Impact' is used in every instance where 'affect' was once the correct word.
And on and on... There's no stopping this madness. Accept it and move on.

The same thing happened with me. I was a grammar/spelling **** before I did a module called 'Language and Society', where I discovered that it is because of its ability to evolve and adapt that the English language is so prevalent worldwide. That is why I say that soon enough 'gollum' will overtake the others as the correct spelling.

A couple more examples where the wrong word is taking over as the right:
'enormity' is often used as the noun form of 'enormous'. It actually has nothing to do with enormousness, traditionally:
Definitions of enormity on the Web:[*]outrageousness: the quality of being outrageous [*]vastness
of size or extent; "in careful usage the noun enormity is not used to
express the idea of great size"; "universities recognized the enormity
of their task" [*]the quality of extreme wickedness
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/list]'Adaption' seems to be taking over from 'adaptation'.
And 'non-descript' used to be used to describe something that actually cannot be described (like the flavour of avocado, I guess)

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 03:26 .

[Godak]

Kekse2k wrote...

It seems to me that the inconsistencies with this word are relatively small compared to other words, but then again, how many discussions are there that involve "golem"?

EXACTLY! Words cannot truly be subject to regional differences if they are so rarely used! We're not talking about poe-ta-toe/pa-ta-toh. We're talking about goh-lem/gollum, a word that is not part of the everyday langauge. Not to mention that a goh-lem and a gollum are two different things...One's a creature made of stone that originates from Jewish folklore, and the other lost his precious.

@Anyone who feels like they can pronounce anything they want however they want: Just shut up! Honestly, that would destroy the entire purpose of language!

[Koralis]

Obtusifolius wrote...

Most people, as evidenced in this thread, do not know the correct pronunciation of the word 'Golem', and that is why I believe it was accidental.

And that may be.  If all of the actors all say the word one way though, the accident results in an artistic decision for the world they're representing.  Obviously the game creators are just fine with dwarves creating "gollums" even if that's not how a Jewish person would pronounce it.
 
Dictionaries merely codify how people are speaking and try to establish some consistancy.  Over time, incorrect pronounciations become "alternative" pronounciations if enough people use it, and if the majority end up using that one then the original pronounciation will actually be listed as an "archaic" pronounciation.  That's what the bulk of the thread's arguement has been about.  If "most people" think it's pronounced "gollum" then it's a legit alternative version.   I, myself, didn't learm the correct pronunciation until I read "Servent of the Bones" in college.   Prior to that EVERY person I'd ever heard say the word had said "gollum."

http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/golem

They have 3 pronunciations listed...  gOh-lem (the standard), goy-lem and even gAh-lem. 

http://dictionary.re...om/browse/golem

Has two pronunciations (random house)... interestingly, varying the second syllable rather than the first... gOh-lum as the first, and gOh-lem as the second.

Over time it's pretty much inevitable that gah-lem and/or gah-lum will join the standard pronunciations as alternatives, because that's how large segments of the world pronounce it.  That's how I interepretted the earlier discussions that you were having with others. 

Whether its currently codified or not doesn't really change the word "in the wild."  The book changes to match reality, not the other way around.

I didn't realise we were talking about creative decisions, because the debate had moved way past that, and I am not going to argue with you that it was a mistake if you want to believe that it wasn't.

If it was a creative decision then that is fine, honestly, and that is not what I am getting all infuriated about anyway. So, yes... agree that we have different opinions on the matter?

Lack of correction amounts to a de-facto decision, even if it was an initial mistake.     I personally suspect that they had different actors reading things differently, they had a meeting and decided to standardize on "gollum."  (or "gah-lem")  But that's just my guess.  I could be wrong.

Either way, like I said, it's a little pointless to endlessly argue opinion with regards to the game.  Yes, we have different opinions, and I'm happy to leave it with that understanding. 

[Obtusifolius]

Koralis wrote...

Obtusifolius wrote...

Most people, as evidenced in this thread, do not know the correct pronunciation of the word 'Golem', and that is why I believe it was accidental.

And that may be.  If all of the actors all say the word one way though, the accident results in an artistic decision for the world they're representing.  Obviously the game creators are just fine with dwarves creating "gollums" even if that's not how a Jewish person would pronounce it.
 
Dictionaries merely codify how people are speaking and try to establish some consistancy.  Over time, incorrect pronounciations become "alternative" pronounciations if enough people use it, and if the majority end up using that one then the original pronounciation will actually be listed as an "archaic" pronounciation.  That's what the bulk of the thread's arguement has been about.  If "most people" think it's pronounced "gollum" then it's a legit alternative version.   I, myself, didn't learm the correct pronunciation until I read "Servent of the Bones" in college.   Prior to that EVERY person I'd ever heard say the word had said "gollum."

http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/golem

They have 3 pronunciations listed...  gOh-lem (the standard), goy-lem and even gAh-lem. 

http://dictionary.re...om/browse/golem

Has two pronunciations (random house)... interestingly, varying the second syllable rather than the first... gOh-lum as the first, and gOh-lem as the second.

Over time it's pretty much inevitable that gah-lem and/or gah-lum will join the standard pronunciations as alternatives, because that's how large segments of the world pronounce it.  That's how I interepretted the earlier discussions that you were having with others. 

Whether its currently codified or not doesn't really change the word "in the wild."  The book changes to match reality, not the other way around.

I didn't realise we were talking about creative decisions, because the debate had moved way past that, and I am not going to argue with you that it was a mistake if you want to believe that it wasn't.

If it was a creative decision then that is fine, honestly, and that is not what I am getting all infuriated about anyway. So, yes... agree that we have different opinions on the matter?

Lack of correction amounts to a de-facto decision, even if it was an initial mistake.     I personally suspect that they had different actors reading things differently, they had a meeting and decided to standardize on "gollum."  (or "gah-lem")  But that's just my guess.  I could be wrong.

Either way, like I said, it's a little pointless to endlessly argue opinion with regards to the game.  Yes, we have different opinions, and I'm happy to leave it with that understanding. 

Nice post, and I agree that 'incorrect' words eventually take over as the correct ones... I've just written about that in another post, in fact Only I was all for language change all along, and it's kind of sad that I must have expressed myself so badly that I failed to get that across

Ah well. I'm glad we got it cleared up, anyway. I've sent a PM to DG to find out (I know, I know, I'm ridiculous, I'm a fanatic, I'm a pedant!), and IF he replies, I promise, I will let the answer be known even if I am wrong

(Edit:) Oh, and I believe that the reason there was no correction was that nobody realised there was a mistake. I'm sure you probably realise that, but I just want to make my opinion clear. Oh my God, I can't even think properly anymore. Hopefully I'm making sense.

(Oh, and 'hopefully' has morphed into something it never used to be. It used to be used only as a direct adjective to a demonstrative verb - she looked hopefully at her father - rather than to convey a wish or hope that something might happen - hopefully I'm making sense.)

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 03:37 .

[Godak]

Koralis wrote...

Lack of correction amounts to a de-facto decision, even if it was an initial mistake.     I personally suspect that they had different actors reading things differently, they had a meeting and decided to standardize on "gollum."  (or "gah-lem")  But that's just my guess.  I could be wrong.

Actually, it was probably the vocal director who decided to correct everyone's "incorrect" pronunciation.

[Koralis]

Mooner911 wrote...

The only time I heard golem pronounced go-lum was in the 'Dune' series of movies.
.

Actually, I think in Dune it was Ghola. 

A new word that has implications in both Golem and Ghoul.  The inanimate being given life (cloned bodies) and the dead coming back to life.

[Obtusifolius]

Elps wrote...

Arguing that the language used is UK English then quoting Merriam-Webster as the definitive pronunciation guide is ridiculous. Merriam-Webster is an American dictionary, representing American definitions and pronunciations.

English pronunciation: GOH-ləm, which is exactly how DA:O pronounces it, is given in my hard copies of the Oxford English Dictionary. It's what I use and what everyone I know uses. It's the correct form in my language so I never took any notice of the way its pronounced in the game.

Of all the things to discuss about the game though this one seems very petty. There is no such thing as a standard, worldwide, spoken English and thank the maker there isn't. One of the things I like about travelling is getting to hear people speaking different dialects, different languages, and enjoying their culture and history - its no different with DA. It's fine to dislike the way people speak in a different country but jumping up and down saying they are wrong is both pointless and insulting to the speakers of that dialect.

I guess people will start arguing over the pronunciation of Alistairs name next. U-list-a, Al-ist-air - go on, argue the correct pronunciation there, or debate how my name is pronounced. Whatever, sheesh, its only a game!

Please read the thread, K?

Good day everyone, it's been lovely speaking with some of you

xxx

Modifié par Obtusifolius, 20 mars 2010 - 03:50 .

[Godak]

Elps wrote...

English pronunciation: GOH-ləm, which is exactly how DA:O pronounces it, is given in my hard copies of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Except...that ISN'T how the game pronounces it. At all. Not even a little bit.

[Kekse2k]

Godak wrote...

Kekse2k wrote...

It seems to me that the inconsistencies with this word are relatively small compared to other words, but then again, how many discussions are there that involve "golem"?

EXACTLY! Words cannot truly be subject to regional differences if they are so rarely used! We're not talking about poe-ta-toe/pa-ta-toh. We're talking about goh-lem/gollum, a word that is not part of the everyday langauge. Not to mention that a goh-lem and a gollum are two different things...One's a creature made of stone that originates from Jewish folklore, and the other lost his precious.

@Anyone who feels like they can pronounce anything they want however they want: Just shut up! Honestly, that would destroy the entire purpose of language!

If anything, I was attempting to convey the opposite of your conclusion. The fact that 'golem' is a word we can assume is not used often, at least, not in any serious or significant manner, leaves room for many interpretations. The fact that the most significant event even remotely regarding this word is in reference to a fictional character in a fictional work who actually has nothing to do with animated stone constructs is, perhaps, unfortunate, because even if the pronunciation evident in DA:O had absolutely nothing to do with the little cretin, it may still be a point of interest for many.

The words we use on a regular basis (well somewhat regular) are well-defined in their varieties and noted in dictionaries, where you may become familiar with them (which Obtufisolius-I hope I didn't butcher that too badly-has been pointing out). Even now, my spell-checker tells me that every "golem" I write is misspelled, which is a shame because that red squiggly is ugly. I'm fairly certain I am typing it correctly...oh gee, here comes the self-doubt. Why is the spell-checker saying it's wrong?

Well, maybe whoever programmed the spell-checker did not consider it to be a word at the time. Who's to say the people who write the dictionary did not consider and alternative pronunciation at the time, as well (granted, the dictionary is better established than the spell-checker, I assume)? This is no failing of theirs, surely, if that's the case, because, as I said, how many conversations use the word? I think I've said the word about...erm...twice in my lifetime. That's actually a number I completely fabricated because I honestly can't remember *ever* saying the word until this game. It was just a word in my mind that never needed to be used, like bemoan. I've read it a lot, never said it. xD.

The pronunciation may be right, it may be wrong, or maybe it's both, which would be in direct violation of the law of noncontradiction, but if we can allow "irregardless" (what an irritating word to use, I think), then maybe we can sweep this one under the rug as well and accept it as the nature of language...as long as we don't have a bumpy rug and trip everywhere. Cheers =)

Modifié par Kekse2k, 20 mars 2010 - 04:28 .