16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Barbarossa2010]

Master Shiori wrote...

Funny enough, when people talk about how Morrigan's romance is tragic, they seem to believe the tragedy purely lies in Morrigan leaving, and not in the nature of grey wardens themselves.

The irony is that even if we got a happy ending of Morri and Warden being reunited that wouldn't last. He is bound to leave for the calling eventually, and that means Morrigan would lose him. There is no scenario that sees them living happily ever after.

So there is no happy ending here. The only thing close to that is having them spend a few years togather.

Great point Master Shiori.  There is plenty of tragedy in the story.  From betrayal of your family in the beginning to what many would call betrayal by Morrigan at the end.  There is plenty of betrayal salted in the middle, and things like the Mother and the Architect made my skin crawl.  We certainly shouldn't forget that you as a Warden are under a death sentence, and probably was force conscripted into teh Grey Wardens, and that there really is no good way out for you.  A final trip to the Deep Roads and a fine death is your end game.  In light of this, I see little compelling reason to gouge the player in the DR only to add bitterness to an already tragic life. 

Gaider did say that they had considered going darker.  One can only hope that market forces are something important to BW/EA and that that trumps their "artistic" vision and love affair with loss and tragedy.   They will have to throw players on the edge of the RPG genre a bone here and there.  I certainly don't want them to cave into fads, but asking for some semblance of satisfaction and fulfillment at the end of a video game is hardly an unreasonable request.

I see their current story tact as unsustainable. 

[Ash Wind]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Great idea (sarcasm).  Let's create a huge sand box with the requisite lore, and start anew with each game with a deep and rich story. That way we only have to create a veneer of continuity and not really have to worry about tying up the near infintesimal loose ends we create.  Oh, and let's punch the boys in the face at the end of each game just for fun, because this is, after all, "Dark Fantasy."

Not interested. 

Having another 79 hours of great gameplay only to get kicked in the balls and forced out of character by the writers at the end; with the added bonus of having nothing to show for the decisions you make, rendering each decision virtually meaningless and not worth the time to ponder, isn't appealling in the least to me.  Alot of players make a big to do about the shades of gray in the story; they love to fancy themselves as trendy for participating in "realism."  That's a pile!  Ambiguity is easy; it gives the writers innumerable escape routes.  They ought to try black and white with absolutes sometime and try to make a sequence of continuity for a story.  Consequences suck.

If true, I predict a downward consumer demand line as we move forward.  Oh, they'll maintain a hardcore base of obsessed nerds, but that'll never carry a franchise.  But what do I know, I'm merely myopic.

See Bladmaster you aren't the only negative poster here...

And that is one of the reasons I remain optimistic that there is going to be a continuance to the Warden’s story and a resolution to the DR / BOG / Morrigan storyline. Contrary to the ‘They Can Do Whatever They Want’ crowd, the fact remains that the direction of DA:2 is as much a business decision as it is a creative decision.

The creative team does not have free reign to do whatever they want. They answer to the business team, who answers to the directors and officers whom ultimately answer to the shareholders. They set the bar pretty high with DA:O. So, if:

DA: Origins sold 3,200,000 and then
DA:2 We Can Do What We Want sells 500,000, you can bet heads are going to roll  figuratively, and they know it.

A completely different game would be a huge gamble. So, do they roll the dice and make a completely different RPG set in a medieval milieu with a few storyline connections to Origins, or do they build upon what has already proven to be very successful?

Stranger things have happened (New Coke) and if they do NOT do a continuance, it will have to be one hell of a game if they want more of my money, and even if it is, it will depend what other games are out there when its released. It wouldn’t be a must buy for me.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 29 mai 2010 - 07:35 .

[Befit]

Ignore this post. Was about to ask a question when i answerd it myself

Modifié par Befit, 29 mai 2010 - 07:37 .

[Ash Wind]

Master Shiori wrote...

Funny enough, when people talk about how Morrigan's romance is tragic, they seem to believe the tragedy purely lies in Morrigan leaving, and not in the nature of grey wardens themselves.

The irony is that even if we got a happy ending of Morri and Warden being reunited that wouldn't last. He is bound to leave for the calling eventually, and that means Morrigan would lose him. There is no scenario that sees them living happily ever after.

So there is no happy ending here. The only thing close to that is having them spend a few years togather.

That's one viewpoint, but even the greatest of marriages eventually end when one of the spouses pass on.

The question is, is it quantity or quality?

If the Warden has 20-25 years left, would you want him to be with the love of his life, or make him be alone, because he's eventually going to die? Who knows what birthing the BOG may do to Morrigan in the process, it may do something similar... they may be going to the great beyond at the same time.

And then there's always the Fiona/Avernus possiblities...

[Master Shiori]

Ash Wind wrote...

And that is one of the reasons I remain optimistic that there is going to be a continuance to the Warden’s story and a resolution to the DR / BOG / Morrigan storyline. Contrary to the ‘They Can Do Whatever They Want’ crowd, the fact remains that the direction of DA:2 is as much a business decision as it is a creative decision.

The creative team does not have free reign to do whatever they want. They answer to the business team, who answers to the directors and officers whom ultimately answer to the shareholders. They set the bar pretty high with DA:O. So, if:

DA: Origins sold 3,200,000 and then
DA:2 We Can Do What We Want sells 500,000, you can bet heads are going to roll  figuratively, and they know it.

A completely different game would be a huge gamble. So, do they roll the dice and make a completely different RPG set in a medieval milieu with a few storyline connections to Origins, or do they build upon what has already proven to be very successful?

Stranger things have happened (New Coke) and if they do NOT do a continuance, it will have to be one hell of a game if they want more of my money, and even if it is, it will depend what other games are out there when its released. It wouldn’t be a must buy for me.

The thing is Origins was a truly epic storyline. In the game itself Duncan and other character tell you how a Blight is the greatest threat that Thedas has ever faced. With that in mind I cannot imagine what kind of plot could possibly prove the equal of DA:O.
The only thing that comes to mind is the return of the Old Gods through Morrigan's baby and the resulting religious strife with the Chantry.

Maybe I'm simply not seeing a bigger picture here due to limited knowledge about the world of DA, but right now anything other than what I've written above seems to be step down from what came before.

And let's not forget the wardens themselves. What other organization in Thedas would allow us to roll any combination of races and classes? I can't think of any.
Not to mention the wardens are spread all around the known world (except Qunariland) so wherever you place DA2 you can be sure our Warden wouldn't be out of place.

Maybe Bioware will surprise us by delivering a story about a new hero, new land and new threat that will be the equal of Origins, but atm I simply cannot fathom what that story could be...
Anything I conjure in my mind doesn't live up to what I have in front of me when I play DA:O

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Gaider did say that they had considered going darker.  One can only hope that market forces are something important to BW/EA and that that trumps their "artistic" vision and love affair with loss and tragedy.   They will have to throw players on the edge of the RPG genre a bone here and there.  I certainly don't want them to cave into fads, but asking for some semblance of satisfaction and fulfillment at the end of a video game is hardly an unreasonable request.

I see their current story tact as unsustainable. 

There certainly is a difference between having a dark story and having a bleak story though. I hate stories or movies that are bleak and I don't think BioWare is going that route for DA. In my view, doing a dark and tragic story is fine so long as you get the "reward" part of the RPG aspects right. For instance, take the DR: this should have really been the emotional culmination of the Morrigan romance for those who romanced her. It should have had noticably unique dialogue and a noticably unique feel for those who were friendly or romancing her. Even if she still walks away and doesn't answer every question, the "reward" aspect should have simply been her acting different based on your prior interactions with her. And yet we didn't get that at all, thus instead of getting a really rich and emotionally gripping scene, most got jarred out of it and left thinking "Wait, what!?"

Going the dark and tragic route is tricky but not impossible, but if BioWare is going to keep going that way in the future they've got to get it right and not try to go the cookie cutter route like the DR.

Ash Wind wrote...
And that is one of the reasons I remain optimistic that there is going to be a continuance to the Warden’s story and a resolution to the DR / BOG / Morrigan storyline. Contrary to the ‘They Can Do Whatever They Want’ crowd, the fact remains that the direction ofDA:2 is as much a business decision as it is a creative decision.

The creative team does not have free reign to do whatever they want. They answer to the business team, who answers to the directors and officers whom ultimately answer to the shareholders. They set the bar pretty high with DA:O. So, if:

DA: Origins sold 3,200,000 and then  DA:2 We Can Do What We Want sells 500,000, you can bet heads are going to roll  figuratively, and they know it.

A completely different game would be a huge gamble. So, do they roll the dice and make a completely different RPG set in a medieval milieu with a few storyline connections to Origins, or do they build upon what has already proven to be very successful?

Stranger things have happened (New Coke) and if they do NOT do a continuance, it will have to be one hell of a game if they want more of my money, and even if it is, it will depend what other games are out there when its released. It wouldn’t be a must buy for me.

This is true- although you could look at Neverwinter Nights where they had the 1st ex-pack set with a totally new PC and totally new story than the main game. And like you mentioned, even if Gaider or the writers want to ditch the Warden or go really dark, they are but one voice and wouldn't be the ones ultimately steering the direction that the game takes- that would be Laidlaw and Darrah's ultimate choice.

But I agree, if they break with the Warden for DA2 then regardless of how awesome the marketing and PR folks try to spin it, it will be a hard sell for me personally. I really don't rush out to buy very many games each year and it just so happens that The Witcher 2 is supposed to be coming out early next year too, so if DA2 disappoints thats my alternative right there.

Its interesting through. If you rummage through most reviews of DAO, one of the common complaints besides the graphics is that the setting seems too generic. It seems like BioWare really uses the feedback to adjust their sequels (look at the combat in ME2). So, just my own speculation, maybe thats a reason they would be more apt to ditch the Warden in DA2 and go for something or some aspect of Thedas that doesn't seem like a LOTOR knock off? In my view they could still use the Warden PC even if you move around geographically, but if they want to try something really different to delineate DA2 from Tolkien-esque fantasy that might be something we see.

Modifié par Brockololly, 29 mai 2010 - 10:26 .

[blademaster7]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Great idea (sarcasm).  Let's create a huge sand box with the requisite lore, and start anew with each
game with a deep and rich story. That way we only have to create a veneer of continuity and not really have to worry about tying up the near infintesimal loose ends we create.  Oh, and let's punch the boys in
the face at the end of each game just for fun, because this is, after all, "Dark Fantasy."

Not interested. 

Having another 79 hours of great gameplay only to get kicked in the balls and forced out of character by the writers at the end; with the added bonus of having nothing to show for the decisions you make, rendering each decision virtually meaningless and not worth the time to ponder, isn't appealling in the least to me.  Alot of players make a big to do about the shades of gray in the story; they love to fancy themselves as trendy for participating in "realism."  That's a pile!  Ambiguity is easy; it gives the writers innumerable escape routes.  They ought to try black
and white with absolutes sometime and try to make a sequence of continuity for a story.  Consequences suck.

If true, I predict a downward consumer demand line as we move forward.  Oh, they'll maintain a hardcore base of obsessed nerds, but that'll never carry a franchise.  But what do I know, I'm merely myopic.

Wow... I just want to praise this post so much but I can't find the proper words.

From an RPG I expect my decisions to have outcomes and consequences. The outcome of my biggest decision in the game was what? The GW who killed the archdemon survived, only for the writers to dispose of him later? All the decisions you made were for nothing? Bleh.

Trust me, you are not the only one who is not interested in this kind of game no matter how good it will be.

Barbarossa2010
wrote...
See Bladmaster you aren't the only negative poster here...../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png

Good to have you around. This thread in not the same without you. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Modifié par blademaster7, 29 mai 2010 - 10:35 .

[Befit]

lol Wouldn't it be funny if Morrigan brought back our wardens from the dead by using the "Lazarus" Ritual? I'm only saying this cuz i just randomly thought of it, no deeper meaning then a joke

[Bahlgan]

Brockololly wrote...

I know in the big scheme of things its not a big deal, but it stinks because I was looking forward to just some mention of Morrigan in the epilogue, seeing as the devs said your romances would at least be acknowledged as having happened.

So I guess its a trade off between not getting the whole "sorrow and regret" ring epilogue in DAO versus not getting the Morrigan epilogue in Awakening.

THIS ^

Sure.. It isn't a big deal to those who play the game just to go through, but it IS a big deal for those who truly enjoy what makes an RPG game. This is just a kindergarten lesson to those who are like me, and play the game by the book. That said and blasted off my chest, I suppose the best thing I can do for now is to make another playthrough with my final siege file and will just make sure not to talk to Morrigan. 

[Brockololly]

Bahlgan wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I know in the big scheme of things its not a big deal, but it stinks because I was looking forward to just some mention of Morrigan in the epilogue, seeing as the devs said your romances would at least be acknowledged as having happened.

So I guess its a trade off between not getting the whole "sorrow and regret" ring epilogue in DAO versus not getting the Morrigan epilogue in Awakening.

THIS ^

Sure.. It isn't a big deal to those who play the game just to go through, but it IS a big deal for those who truly enjoy what makes an RPG game. This is just a kindergarten lesson to those who are like me, and play the game by the book. That said and blasted off my chest, I suppose the best thing I can do for now is to make another playthrough with my final siege file and will just make sure not to talk to Morrigan.

Yeah, the sad thing is that I really doubt bugs like that will ever be resolved by BioWare. Its a crappy situation all around, but it really sucks for the console players as they can't even use the mods that restore the game to the condition it should be in. Thus why PC is vastly superior to any console! *ducks out to avoid flame war*

[Master Shiori]

Chapter 1 of Demons Within is up (3 pages so far):

ximena07.deviantart.com/#/d2qp4gh

This one is hard to swallow for anyone who romanced Morri, though Ximena says it'll get better (she was really torn when drawing this).
Battle of Denerim all over again, so consider yourself warned.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 30 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[blademaster7]

Who wants to get back up after that?

His body survived but he died inside.

[Master Shiori]

blademaster7 wrote...

Who wants to get back up after that?

His body survived but he died inside.

Funy enough that's exactly how my character felt afer slaying the Archdemon and finding out Morrigan disappeared.

[soignee]

Master Shiori wrote...

Chapter 1 of Demons Within is up (3 pages so far):

ximena07.deviantart.com/#/d2qp4gh

This one is hard to swallow for anyone who romanced Morri, though Ximena says it'll get better (she was really torn when drawing this).
Battle of Denerim all over again, so consider yourself warned.

I love this series, been following it like woah

[Master Shiori]

Pages 4 and 5 are up (double page spread) and damn...

ximena07.deviantart.com/gallery/

You'll have to excuse me while I go cry my heart out.

And to think I considered previous 3 pages to be hard to swallow...

EDIT:

Somebody send a bucket to Ximena before she floods her house with tears.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 30 mai 2010 - 10:54 .

[Befit]

Anyone want to make predictions on the story? My money's on a surprise visit from Flemeth

[Brockololly]

Awesome comic so far by Ximena. And only about 2 weeks to E3 (yes, I am pathetically counting down...)

[bl00dsh0t]

Brockololly wrote...

Awesome comic so far by Ximena. And only about 2 weeks to E3 (yes, I am pathetically counting down...)

Indeed, epic comic been waiting for one of these, immensely talented artist with morrigan love...that is just too damn rare

And yes 2 weeks...2 weeks of checking all damn gaming sites i know till I find a glimpse of DA2...your not the only one spastic about this, don't worry

[Metalunatic]

Master Shiori wrote...

Pages 4 and 5 are up (double page spread) and damn...

ximena07.deviantart.com/gallery/

You'll have to excuse me while I go cry my heart out.

And to think I considered previous 3 pages to be hard to swallow...

EDIT:

Somebody send a bucket to Ximena before she floods her house with tears.

That comic is amazing! I'm glad I stumbled in this thread, even though the comic makes me feel quite the opposite.

Modifié par Metalunatic, 30 mai 2010 - 03:56 .

[Bahlgan]

Saw the comic pages, and I must say I too am amazed!

[Swoo]

Wow, yeah. I wasn't too sure how much I was going to dig the comic or not since the sneak preview left me feeling kind of 'eeeh', but so far this has been fantastic.

[Ash Wind]

Master Shiori wrote...

Pages 4 and 5 are up (double page spread) and damn...

ximena07.deviantart.com/gallery/

You'll have to excuse me while I go cry my heart out.

And to think I considered previous 3 pages to be hard to swallow...

EDIT:

Somebody send a bucket to Ximena before she floods her house with tears.

Very nice stuff... she really captures Morrigan.

So, on pages 4/5 is she on the ground like that because she's exhausted... or because she's anguished?

Modifié par Ash Wind, 30 mai 2010 - 08:31 .

[Barbarossa2010]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

*****ME2 SPOILER*****

Well, after I completed the hit mission that she wanted, I went to see her to tell her that the guilty party was none of the people on her list.  I'll bet alot of players make a hit on the wrong person (I know I did the first time).  Anyway, when I went to notify her, an option popped up to ask Liara why she and the Shadowbroker were at war, and she goes on to tell you that it was she who saved Shepard from the hands of the Shadowbroker.  The SB was puting all his resources into getting ahold of Shepard's body to hand it over to the Collectors for a massive payoff.  She says that this was all about him (Shep) and that she would make the Shadowbroker pay for it, or words to that effect.  She really does come across with hatred toward the Shadow Broker.  It finally all made sense and it was right there under my nose if I went looking for it.

I simply knew nothing of it in the first game.  Maybe it was there somewhere and I just missed it.  The only difference on my second playthrough was that I successfully completed that second mission.

Needless to say, I felt like a s#!+ for cheating on her.  Were you aware of this?

Here is what killed the romance for me completely -- if you tell Liara that you can't help her in finding the real culprit then she will say that she is going to kill all 5 of those suspects instead. I was like WTF???
Did you know about this?
And I thought the comic was bad enough already.

I'm going to have to go back and check that again.  I was too awestruck in realizing that her distance and what she was doing was all for Shep.  Liara is obsessed with annihilating the Shadowbroker for what he was going to do with Shepard's body.  It would seem to me that anyone that possessed would pretty much kill anyone who got in the way of her vengeance (making her an awful lot like Zaeed BTW). While it takes the luster off of the innocent nerdy girl, it's pretty damn sexy in a way...but hey, that's my own darker side coming out. 

Liara has definitely changed, but now at least I know why. I'm going to have to start reading all these darn comics.  There's a lot of info buried in them.

[Barbarossa2010]

Brockololly wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I know in the big scheme of things its not a big deal, but it stinks because I was looking forward to just some mention of Morrigan in the epilogue, seeing as the devs said your romances would at least be acknowledged as having happened.

So I guess its a trade off between not getting the whole "sorrow and regret" ring epilogue in DAO versus not getting the Morrigan epilogue in Awakening.

THIS ^

Sure.. It isn't a big deal to those who play the game just to go through, but it IS a big deal for those who truly enjoy what makes an RPG game. This is just a kindergarten lesson to those who are like me, and play the game by the book. That said and blasted off my chest, I suppose the best thing I can do for now is to make another playthrough with my final siege file and will just make sure not to talk to Morrigan.

Yeah, the sad thing is that I really doubt bugs like that will ever be resolved by BioWare. Its a crappy situation all around, but it really sucks for the console players as they can't even use the mods that restore the game to the condition it should be in. Thus why PC is vastly superior to any console! *ducks out to avoid flame war*

No need to duck out, I agree.  While there are many advantages to consoles in the the multi-player and shooter arenas (especially in instant match-making), RPGs are no where near as well supported in the boxes.  That's just a fact. I'm infinitely jealous of the mods you guys all get to take advantage of. 

I keep threatening Terra_Ex that I'm going to upgrade my PC soon and replay DA:O/Awakenings.  The problem is that I'm neck deep in Army of Two-TFD right now with a small string of games I want to get at behind that, and am currently resisting anything that might avert me from getting my shooter fix in. I've been away from my "home" for well over 6 months right now, with only ME/ME2 to itch my basest gaming impulses.

Anyway, you're right!