16183 réponses à ce sujet

[blademaster7]

dream_operator23 wrote...

I definitely think Morrigan loves the Warden, there is no doubt in my mind. Yet there is more to love than just feeling it. You have to act on it. I really don't think Morrigan ever acts on her love for the Warden. I don't think she ever puts the Warden's feelings above her own. The fact that she leaves a Warden she loves if he won't do the DR seals this for me though there are many other hints of it. Morrigan not trusting the Warden enough to at least tell him what she plans to do with their child being one of them. And don't get me wrong, I love Morrigan and any more she is the only companion I romance because I love her and her story so much. It's just that she has so much to learn about loving someone.

The part where she leaves you if you decline the DR is a slap in the face.

If the Warden agrees, then Morrigan will get the OGB she always wanted and her love gets to live. She hits two birds in one stone. Win-win situation

BUT if you go ahead and play hardball, she would rather leave you to die and miss a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a child with the soul of an old god. And the reason? Gaider Morrigan would rather not share any more information. And the lack of information is good enough reason for anyone to decline the DR.

Does she truly have a good reason to act that way or is she just wielding the plot hammer?

Modifié par blademaster7, 20 juin 2010 - 10:15 .

[Master Shiori]

It's an obvious plot hammer.

The question is whether the plot hammer was introduced in order to make the whole DR thing a secret that will be revealed in the future or simply to add a mystery factor (and annoy the player to no end).

Maybe Morrigan has a valid reason for acting the way she does. Maybe she doesn't want the player to know or follow after her in order to protect him/her.

But we simply don't have enough information about her plans, OGB, Old Gods or even Morrigan herself to predict her motives.

The only thing we can say for certain is that Morrigan loves the Warden and that she considers having the OGB to be important, enough so that she'd be willing to leave the man she loves behind.
Oh yea, we also know she values power and survival above all else.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 20 juin 2010 - 10:53 .

[blademaster7]

Master Shiori wrote...

It's an obvious plot hammer.

The question is whether the plot hammer was introduced in order to make the whole DR thing a secret that will be revealed in the future or simply to add a mystery factor (and annoy the player to no end).

This is what I believe as well.

Of course, I would rather have an explanation as to why the DR was something that "had to be done" and a reasonable excuse as to why "this is how it must be" because "destiny demands it".

If it turns out to be a plot-hook that only intents to frustrate the player then I'm going to be seriously disappointed.

PS: Wtf is up with the fonts? Is it just my browser or did the site just got weird?

[Brockololly]

blademaster7 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

It's an obvious plot hammer.

The question is whether the plot hammer was introduced in order to make the whole DR thing a secret that will be revealed in the future or simply to add a mystery factor (and annoy the player to no end).

This is what I believe as well.

Of course, I would rather have an explanation as to why the DR was something that "had to be done" and a reasonable excuse as to why "this is how it must be" because "destiny demands it".

If it turns out to be a plot-hook that only intents to frustrate the player then I'm going to be seriously disappointed.

That whole "destiny demands it" line really bothers me. All throughout the game MOrrigan is all about independence and freedom, controlling your path and all that. Yet in the end of the game she acts like she is just some puppet of fate and she is powerless to do anything besides running away with the OGB. Sure if she has her "plan" to look out for, then fine, but I don't get why she is all of a sudden acting like its some predetermined thing thats out of her control.

When Morrigan pops back up in future DA games (hopefully with the Warden) she has a lot of explaining to do. Doesn't need to explain away everything, but at least some of the DR stuff. If the whole DR endgame stuff is just pure Plot Hammer and never gets explained, ugh. I could rant about it, but I've done so enough already...

[Master Shiori]

Well, David Gaider did say he has his own ideas about how Morrigan's story will play out, so I assume we'll see more of her at some point.

Hmm, looking back at my gaming history with Bioware rpgs, I always seem to fall for women that give me a tragic romance: Viconia in BG2, Aribeth in NWN, Bastila in KOTOR (though she could be saved in the end), Morrigan in DA:O.
And all of these were written by Gaider, so go figure...

Modifié par Master Shiori, 20 juin 2010 - 02:52 .

[Giggles_Manically]

My only two wardens who romanced her (Mage/DC) both turned the ritual down. My Dwarf died, but my Mage fed Loghain to the AD. So in one she is having a half-elf baby, and the other a half-dwarf baby. Poor her no OG or CHild Payment cheques.

[Giggles_Manically]

IGNORE THAT DOUBLE POST BEHIND THE THREAD!

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 20 juin 2010 - 03:12 .

[Master Shiori]

According to David Gaider a child between an elf and a human is always a human in DA. Which would explain why Elves look down upon any of their kin who marry with humans.



Strangely enough, a child between a warf and a human or elf would be a half-dwarf.



Guess it's just another example of Elves in DA getting a short end of the stick.

[Barbarossa2010]

blademaster7 wrote...

dream_operator23 wrote...

I definitely think Morrigan loves the Warden, there is no doubt in my mind. Yet there is more to love than just feeling it. You have to act on it. I really don't think Morrigan ever acts on her love for the Warden. I don't think she ever puts the Warden's feelings above her own. The fact that she leaves a Warden she loves if he won't do the DR seals this for me though there are many other hints of it. Morrigan not trusting the Warden enough to at least tell him what she plans to do with their child being one of them. And don't get me wrong, I love Morrigan and any more she is the only companion I romance because I love her and her story so much. It's just that she has so much to learn about loving someone.

The part where she leaves you if you decline the DR is a slap in the face.

If the Warden agrees, then Morrigan will get the OGB she always wanted and her love gets to live. She hits two birds in one stone. Win-win situation

BUT if you go ahead and play hardball, she would rather leave you to die and miss a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a child with the soul of an old god. And the reason? Gaider Morrigan would rather not share any more information. And the lack of information is good enough reason for anyone to decline the DR.

Does she truly have a good reason to act that way or is she just wielding the plot hammer?

Two good posts here; there are certainly many others, but these get to the heart of the matter for me.  Being that you are treated hardly any different if you were a romancer than if you were antagonistic toward her is a dead give-away of a contrived plot device. 

Not being able to ask even a reasonable question was perhaps the most frustrating event in any video game I've personally ever played.  If that was Gaider's and BW's intent then they succeed masterfully.  The problem with that is that I'm not one to continuously expose myself to frustration and repeat offenses of such in a sequel.  From what you all say, this is Gaider's MO.  No thanks.

Her walking away if you refuse her Ritual was the coldest, darkest thing I've experience in a video game.  I don't think the Morrigan I experienced would have done such a thing when she could have just as easily have come clean and gotten what she wanted.  Instead she walks away...with a smirk!  In my view, Morrigan had no right to expect a Grey Warden to do such a thing with so little info.  She had no right to remain silent and avert any meaningful answers, and she certainly had no damn right to be "angry" because you refused.  She could have had what she wanted you must remember..and very easily.  Contrived, contrived, contrived.  I'm just not buying her higher purpose at this point.  The burden was on her, not the Warden, but the writer's pulled a fast one and switched up on us.  The problem with that is that it just wasn't believable to me.

My Warden was no where near his in-character persona in the exchange between the two at the DR and for that I've been angry for months.  And as I've said before, I can envision nothing approaching realistic that warranted her behavior and demeanor at the DR.  My BS-ometer is very high at this point and I have an itchy trigger finger ready to throw the CONTRIVED flag in a sequel.  DA was my first RPG and after 80 hours of clawing my way through Ferelden, learning stat management and a new form of fighting and combat system, I felt cheated and betrayed at the end, all because of an arbitrary decision to romance the plot device.  Bullcrap! Feeling like you've been screwed at the end of a video game is not really a good way to walk away after $100 (+) and as many hours invested.  I won't be walking blind into another RPG ever again.  And I certainly won't be giving Gaider and Co a license to kill (thinking this kind of story telling is just fine [outside a core group of fanatics] in a first person interactive and entertainment genre) and the opportunity to do it again. I'll be reading reviews for a while next time.

I'm a Morrigan fan, I'm just not so sure about the writers.  I'm really not so sure that seemingly contrived, heavy-handed, 'kick you in the balls' endings engineered to build "demand" is the right way to go in mass-produced player-centered video games.  Just my take though. 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 20 juin 2010 - 05:07 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Is there any actual proof that the DR was not cooked up later on, just so the Warden or someone didnt have to die? I keep hearing that but it seems like weak writing on Bioware's part.

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Is there any actual proof that the DR was not cooked up later on, just so the Warden or someone didnt have to die? I keep hearing that but it seems like weak writing on Bioware's part.

I haven't seen anything concrete from the devs or anyone in the know that the DR was tacked on later. I've certainly seen people speculate on that point, but nothing from the devs.

My own speculation is that maybe there was more to the DR that got chopped down into what we currently have and something was just sort of lost in translation. The DR scene to me is just far too heavy handed and seemingly intentionally a pure "drive the plot forward at the expense of RP" moment. Like Barbarossa mentioned, just the ability to press Morrigan for answers a little more would have gone a long way in my book towards making the scene more believable. But I think the DR is more likely the writers trying to create mystery and sequel bait- yet IMO, it makes for a sloppy ending to Origins and most likely frustration and disappointment if its not followed up in  a meaningful way in future games.

[Master Shiori]

There is no proof, but if you played through all the possible endings in Origins and play through Awakening as both Orlesian Warden and Imported Warden from DA:O you'll notice a few things:



1) Ultimate sacrifice pretty much gives you a clear ending that flows almost perfectly. No lose ends or anything. DR gives you lose ends, but great story potential that can be used in the future. It also makes sure everyone survives. Kind of handy for a writer to have, especially if he's entertaining the thought of continuing the story or bringing back characters in future games.



2) Awakening plays out much better as the Orlesian (by this I mean interaction with previous characters like Alistair, Wynne and Oghren).

It's almost as if their dialogue was recorded purely for this kind of playthrough and everything they say to the imported Warden was added later, since it feels a bit "out of place".



Not really proof, but if you play through several times in different ways you'll start to notice when things seem natural and when they're a bit "off".

[Barbarossa2010]

blademaster7 wrote...

BUT if you go ahead and play hardball, she would rather leave you to die and miss a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a child with the soul of an old god. And the reason? Gaider Morrigan would rather not share any more information. And the lack of information is good enough reason for anyone to decline the DR.

Does she truly have a good reason to act that way or is she just wielding the plot hammer?

I remember my Ultimate Sacrifice Warden here.  There was no  bu!! S#!+ in him and no weakness.  He literally was a man possessed after turning down the Dark Ritual and Morrigan could never have understood him.  She would have thought him an idiot, becasue she presented to him to be a self-centered, hypervigilant, and emotionally unstable co-dependent trying to play the tough girl.  There may have been something in her worth saving, but he wasn't so sure it was worth it with the inherent hypocrisy exhibited between her words and deeds; and he had a job to do. 

I've said before, his ending was as noble and epic as I could have asked for.  That Warden was a true hero and would never possess the weakness to have played the chump and trusted Morrigan, and passively allowed her to skirt meaningful and appropriate questions about her highly speculative offer.  He was outraged and probably would have slain her given the plot chance because as far as he knew she had become a threat for the outrageous thing she proposed to him (and she certainly and irresponsibly thought she bore no burden to clarify her intentions and make him understand--If her intentions were pure, there was no need for her to remain silent, he had no long term desire for her and would have let her walk away clean, as he romanced and loved Leliana).  It made no sense to him at all if her intentions were pure, so he made his decision and knew he was better off with her gone for the upcoming epic battle.  As I played the character, I knew what was going to happen at the end, but it didn't dissuade me in the least.  He wouldn't even allow Loghain to join the battle with the AD--he thought his redemption lied on another path.  The only real downside was Leliana, but for a truly (Shakespearean) tragic end, it was pure poetry from the eulogy to her "joining" him in death.

It felt much better to play the dead, mourned and adored hero than the lingering, unsure, ever-questioning sap who would find his manhood cheap at the hands of an emotionally unstable swamp witch with mommy issues.  Too bad really, to get epic out of this tragic mess of an RPG, you have to kill yourself at the end and (most likely) re-roll, rinse, and repeat in the sequels.


“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother; be never so vile. This day shall gentle his condition. And gentlemen in England now abed shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and HOLD THEIR MANHOODS CHEAP whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.”--William Shakespeare, Henry V

Of course, I had characters that saw her differently.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 20 juin 2010 - 06:49 .

[Giggles_Manically]

My best RP charachter was my DC who started off romancing her, but dumped her after Redcliffe, can you see cold hearted? Omeron started off thinking that surviving was the greatest goal in life, like Morrigan. However talking to Sten about the Qun, Wynne about what sacrifice is about, and seeing people willing to give everything changed him a lot. When Morrigan came with the offer he already knew what he was going to do.

Kardol had inspired him and seeing the Legion in action motivated him, when Riordan told him about the sacrifice he, didnt hesitate to offer to take the blow. At the start of the game he would not have even given it a second thought and would have let Alistiar kill himself. But he had changed and did the US. Morrigan made him sad, since he saw her as having only cared about herself and her goals this entire time. BEfore he died he probably thought "heh not bad for a duster thug I guess".

While MOrrigan is complex and well written sadly to me ending the blight is 10,000 times more important. Taking the DR is COWARDLY (ie doing something to save your own skin from certain death, that is just plain stupid) and a death with meaning is far better than a life lived in constant fear of what you did.

While I do feel bad that Morrigan thinks she has to do this, overall giving my life for my country is not terrible, and its only Morrigan at the end who fears death really, and death to me is not something to fight or fear, just something we all have to accept.

edit- "Aye fight and you might die, run and you'll live.. at least for a while, and dying in your beds many years from now would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance just on chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they make our lives but they will never take our FREEDOM!"

If we are throwing out movie quotes then this one fits best for me about the whole issue.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 20 juin 2010 - 07:10 .

[blademaster7]

This page is pure gold. Mark it down guys. Page 140 of the Morrigan thread.

There is nothing more  to add, really. I may even go for the US ending(again) if I ever finish my pending playthrough just to get that epic feeling of satisfaction and closure.

Definitely better than getting slapped in the face and then having the lead wirter tell you to turn the other cheek.

Modifié par blademaster7, 20 juin 2010 - 07:15 .

[Master Shiori]

Nothing cowardly about DR, especially if your Warden loves Morrigan and trusts her.



Your goal is to end the Blight. That is accomplished whether you choose US or DR.



To me, doing the DR is paying Morrigan back for all the help she gave me during my quest. More importantly, it shows that my character trusts her even when there is no proof that her intentions are good. That he believes she cares about him and would not betray that trust.

True, I cannot know how things will turn out, but at least I'll be around to deal with the consequences should something bad happen.

It may sound selfish, but after everything my human noble went through he is allowed to think about himself for once, especially since doing so won't betray his duty to others.



In the end the Blight is stopped and my duty is done. Not only that but I'll go down in history as the only Grey Warden to slay the Archdemon and survive to tell about it.

As for Morrigan, I'll spend the rest of my days looking for her and my child, not because they're a treat, but because I consider them to be my family and am responsible for their wellbeing.

[Giggles_Manically]

I cant romance Morrigan with a straight face Im sorry. WHile interseting and a complex arc I just dont like her. I knew peopl who acted exactly like her :self-centered, rude, demeaining, and vain and they are people I hate. Her behaviour and beliefs are so bad that at times I wonder what others see in her. Although there are rare moments where I think something cool shows through, but it is quickly covered back by the b@tcheness. Like in Honnleath, she wants to deal with the demon, but I dont care, -3 approval or the Helm of Honnleath?



I will not take back that the DR is cowardly since you are doing it out of FEAR of dying or losing someone close to you. While we can debate this all day, like the Council descion in ME1 or the Collector Base in ME2 I think I am going to go and play Dragon age some more since I am on these forums a lot more than I play it seems.



play well my friends

[Master Shiori]

My reason for doing the DR wasn't because I feared death.

I did it because it was important to a person I love.

Even if DR wouldn't prevent me from dying I would still agree to perform it with Morrigan. If her life was in danger on top of that tower and my Warden had to sacrifice himself in order to save her he would do it without a moments thought.

Looking for an alternative doesn't make you a coward, but, if said alternative was found and worked, it makes the sacrifice you'd otherwise make pointless.

Unless, the OGB dooms the world in a future DA title and I'm unable to save it, I'll believe my choice to be a correct one.
Same with sparing the Architect in Awakening. Possibly catastrophic but that has yet to be proven true.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 20 juin 2010 - 07:39 .

[Master Shiori]

She aids you on your mission, returns your feelings and offers you a way to survive the battle with the Archdemon.



Yes, she is self-centered, doesn't care about good or evil and often outright rude or hostile, but that is how she was raised by Flemeth.



Morrigan nver had a normal childhood, was hunted by the templars simply for being born who she is, never had a friend or someone who truly cared about her and lives in a world where people fear and hate her.



With that kind of background you cannot really expect her to show kindness, compassion or love, because she never experienced these things herself.



It is up to my Warden to show her that things can be different. That's why I'll save her from Flemeth and not expect anything in return. While I'll accept the fact that she doesn't want to be intimate with me and not turn by back on her because of it and why I'll trust her when she doesn't give me the reason to do so.

Because I believe somewhere deep inside of her, buried under Flemeth's teachings, is that same little girl who stole a golden mirror and dreamed of a better life. Maybe I'll reach that part of her or maybe I won't, but that won't stop me from trying.



In the end if I can change her view of the world just a bit and help her choose her own path and happiness, then all my efforts will be worth it. Even if I'm not there beside her.

[Giggles_Manically]

Master Shiori wrote...

My reason for doing the DR wasn't because I feared death.

I did it because it was important to a person I love.

Even if DR wouldn't prevent me from dying I would still agree to perform it with Morrigan. If her life was in danger on top of that tower and my Warden had to sacrifice himself in order to save her he would do it without a moments thought.

Looking for an alternative doesn't make you a coward, but, if said alternative was found and worked, it makes the sacrifice you'd otherwise make pointless.

Unless, the OGB dooms the world in a future DA title and I'm unable to save it, I'll believe my choice to be a correct one.
Same with sparing the Architect in Awakening. Possibly catastrophic but that has yet to be proven true.

So you potentially butt-humped the entire world just to make your GF happy?
I am sorry but Morrigan in that scene shows you that she only ever cared for herself, and only herself. REad into what you want, and I will read into it what I want, but my only charachter who fully romanced her dosent miss her in the slightest, in fact he sold the ring as soon as he could.

[Master Shiori]

We already explained at length why she acts the way she does in the DR.



David Gaider himself said it was one scene to fit all Wardens. She was supposed to act differently to a Warden who was her friend or lover but that never made it into the game. He also confirmed that Morrigan does love the Warden and that is why she gave him her ring.



And right now neither of us has ANY proof that our respective views on UC or DR are correct. That's the whole point of this anyway. We can only speculate and either believe Morrigan or not.

[Giggles_Manically]

I just kicked her from my party in Honnleath, she actually wanted to let that little girl get possessed in return for getting Shale. She may have lost -3 approval there but I think I just lost -100 approval over here. I will never stand for a person to be possessed no what is to gain, that is not only wrong but evil. Sorry Morri, but Wynne is a much better Mage to me in the end.