16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Shiori]

Well, ofc she doesn't love me when she joins me on my mission. She falls in love over the course of the mission itself.



As for leaving me after the battle of Denerim, I look at it like this: she has a mission which is as important to her as stopping the Blight is to me. The fact that said mission requires her to leave me doesn't mean she is happy with it, but it's something she feels needs to be done. She openly tells you that, had things been different, she'd do a lot more for you. The fact she openly calls you her love, something she would despise herself for doing normally, also shows that she truly cares for your Warden.



It's not a happy story, but then again it was never meant to be such. There are plenty of moments when breaking up with her and going for Leliana would have been easier and would have left me happy.



But my Warden isn't a person who can have a happy ever after. He's been dying since Ostagar and has, at best, 30 years to live (personally, I'll be surprised if he lives half as long as that). The happy ever after with Morrigan and his child in some cottage with a white picket fence isn't in the cards.

I can spend that time killing every darkspawn I come across or trying to make life better for 1 woman who loves me.



As for friction between my Warden and Morrigan it happens on regular basis. Morrigan will often disagree with my Warden's decisions. Sometimes, like in the Tower of Magi, I will be able to explain things to her and bring her to my way of thinking. At other times she'll refuse to accept my reasons but will respect my decision in the end.

Romancing Morrigan is a very rocky road where it's easy to lose patience and simply say "to hell with everything". But if you're persistent, don't allow her to push you away with her attitude or deeds, you'll eventually come to the point where she'll return your feelings.



This is the kind of romance that I like. The one where you need to really work on earning the love and respect of another. It won't come easy or without sacrifice, but it will be worth it in the end.

[Giggles_Manically]

Simply put if she dosent trust me, why in the bloody hell would I trust her. Trust to me is not one sided but mutual. I can never trust a person who never trusts me. And that is just what happens in the end, she DOES NOT TRUST YOU. That breaks it for me period.

Hell Bastilla got on my nerves a lot, but she actually comes around to you and loves you and trusts you, and you are the redeemed fomer Dark Lord of the Sith!



My favourite Bioware romance was with Silk Fox though, she goes from calling you a peasent and a nobody, but in the end her romance touched me deeply. The way she says "You havent forgotten your Heavenly Lily have you" after seeing you again blows the SS Morrigan out of the water. She goes from being a princess,and on the opposite end of the social scale to loving a nobody peasent in the end. Well done and I loved it.



Then again I am reviewing JAde Empire through my nostalgia glasses, but then again I did 12 full playthroughs.

[Master Shiori]

She trusts you and you well know it.



The question you're probably asking is why doesn't she reveal her plan for the OGB to you?

That is something you should be asking David Gaider and other writers, because they're the ones who wrote Morrigan's dialogue for the DR. Why should Morrigan reveal her plans when I can't even ask her about them?



And seriously Giggles, if you got fed up with Morrigan's romance I can understand it. It's not for everyone and many people, especially those who expect happy endings, will be frustrated to no end with how it plays out.

That doesn't mean it's pointless or that Morrigan is a bad character. She has her flaws and strong points like everyone else.

Personally, my view on Silk Fox compared to Morrigan is the opposite of yours. For all her mystery Silk Fox wasn't much of a challenge to get. I never felt like I sacrificed something along the way or that I truly had to fight for her affection.



Having Morrigan openly admit that she loves me at Gates of Denerim, something she wouldn't be caught dead admitting just a few days ago, is way more emotional. It took a lot of effort on her part to say those words and the fact that she did speaks volumes about her feelings for my Warden.



Bastila romance was great. Her redemption on the Star Forge is by far my favorite scene from Star Wars.



Silk Fox and Dawn Star though are pretty much straightforward to romance without any surprises. Getting either of them to love you doesn't take much effort. You just need to be understanding and not come across as a self-centered jerk. Once the romance starts you're pretty much set for a happy ending. They're both excellent characters and I enjoyed romancing them, but to me they aren't in the same league as Viconia from BG2 or Morrigan from DA.

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I just kicked her from my party in Honnleath, she actually wanted to let that little girl get possessed in return for getting Shale. She may have lost -3 approval there but I think I just lost -100 approval over here. I will never stand for a person to be possessed no what is to gain, that is not only wrong but evil. Sorry Morri, but Wynne is a much better Mage to me in the end.

At least with that instance in particular- it doesn't make sense for Morrigan to be ok with demons either. She has no fondness for them as is evidence by her interactions with them in the Fade. Just about every companion has a "WTF?" approve/disapprove moment like that. Like Wynne approving of the PC screwing Gheyna - it doesn't make sense.

[Giggles_Manically]

Its not that I dont like angsty romances its that I just dont like MOrrigan, overall I just deep down do not get along with, like, or want to spend time with her at all.



Also Silk Fox is more interesting to me simply because of how the romance starts and how it ends, emperor of the Jade Empire hells yah. What drives me crazy is just how arrogant she is and that feature alone makes me angry as hell. Out of all the companions she is the only one whe gets along with no one. Even Zevran in his banter shows his friendliness with others and his charm. Morrigan is rude, sarcastic and unfeeling.



My first time in I thought hey she is pretty cool, but the way she treats Alistair in his grief, and insults everyone else just pushes me away. They say opposites attract, but in this case opposites push away very quickly.

[Master Shiori]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Its not that I dont like angsty romances its that I just dont like MOrrigan, overall I just deep down do not get along with, like, or want to spend time with her at all.

Also Silk Fox is more interesting to me simply because of how the romance starts and how it ends, emperor of the Jade Empire hells yah. What drives me crazy is just how arrogant she is and that feature alone makes me angry as hell. Out of all the companions she is the only one whe gets along with no one. Even Zevran in his banter shows his friendliness with others and his charm. Morrigan is rude, sarcastic and unfeeling.

My first time in I thought hey she is pretty cool, but the way she treats Alistair in his grief, and insults everyone else just pushes me away. They say opposites attract, but in this case opposites push away very quickly.

Fair enough. To each his own as they say.

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I just kicked her from my party in Honnleath, she actually wanted to let that little girl get possessed in return for getting Shale. She may have lost -3 approval there but I think I just lost -100 approval over here. I will never stand for a person to be possessed no what is to gain, that is not only wrong but evil. Sorry Morri, but Wynne is a much better Mage to me in the end.

At least with that instance in particular- it doesn't make sense for Morrigan to be ok with demons either. She has no fondness for them as is evidence by her interactions with them in the Fade. Just about every companion has a "WTF?" approve/disapprove moment like that. Like Wynne approving of the PC screwing Gheyna - it doesn't make sense.

Even bigger WTF moment is the desire demon with the charmed templar in the Circle Tower.

If you have Wynne, Leliana and Alistair with you they'll all comment on how she is evil and needs to be stopped. But if you choose to let her leave in peace with the templar they'll all agree with it.

Makes me laugh so hard every time I do it. If that isn't a truly epic ooc moment I don't know what is. 

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Its not that I dont like angsty romances its that I just dont like MOrrigan, overall I just deep down do not get along with, like, or want to spend time with her at all.

What drives me crazy is just how arrogant she is and that feature alone makes me angry as hell. Out of all the companions she is the only one whe gets along with no one. Even Zevran in his banter shows his friendliness with others and his charm. Morrigan is rude, sarcastic and unfeeling.

My first time in I thought hey she is pretty cool, but the way she treats Alistair in his grief, and insults everyone else just pushes me away. They say opposites attract, but in this case opposites push away very quickly.

I think the very fact that Morrigan elicits strong feelings from people that hate her guts and people that love her character is a testiment to a good job by Gaider.

As for Morrigan treating people like crap- why should she do otheriwise? She grew up with Flemeth who seems like the biggest misanthrope around, gets hunted down by Templars and she is supposed to be all Princess Sunshine when everyone from the onset gives her crap for being an apostate?  Morrigan has never been around people much before, so given her upbringing with Flemeth of course she is going to treat people like dolts.

When she sees Alistair blubbering about over Duncan sure she lacks tact, but what she says has truth in it- man up, you're the last of 2 Wardens in Ferelden you can't be all weepy when the world is crumbling down around you. Is it sensitive? Hell, no. She doesn't care about others emotions- she cares about practicality and getting the job done the most effective way. It might be seen as short sighted at times, like ignoring Redcliffe, but at the least I value her opinion because its someone who isn't just going to be a "yes" man.

But part of the thing I like about Morrigan is that unlike way too many other characters in Origins and games in general, Morrigan doesn't necessarily bend to the will of the PC. It seems like too many players think a character is "stupid" or "whining" if they don't agree with everything the PC does or they object. Morrigan has her own agenda and its obviously really important to her. She isn't just going to be some pawn to be used by the PC. Of course though a lot of how I view her going forward depends on what her plan with the OGB actually is......

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 juin 2010 - 10:00 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Call it practiacllity if you want I call it being a royal b@tch. Gaider can say whatever he wants but Morrigan goes to the very bottom of my Bioware Charachter scale. Never thought anyone could beat out that Twilek from KOTOR ever. Mission Vao I think her name was.

[Master Shiori]

Are you serious? Mission Vao was a sweet kid, bit angsty but otherwise nice.

Can't really think of a single KOTOR companion that was truly annoying. Jolee Bindo had a few moments when I wanted to strangle him, but in a good way. That old man was EPIC.



As for Morrigan, you REALLY need to put yourself in her shoes. After everything she went through in life I'm not surprised at her attitude at all. I'd probably be even worse in her position.

Still her pragmatism is refreshing after having to listen to Alistair or Wynne. Wyne in particular might seem nice, but just try and disagree with her views on Grey Wardens. You'll be in for a unpleasant surprise.

The funny thing is that for all her talk about your duty as a GW she knows jack about what it's really like being a Grey Warden. Had she met Duncan he'd cure her of her dellusions quite quickly. Same with Alistair. His naive view of world with rainbows and butterflies would be shattered long before the Landsmeet.



Leliana is very optimisitc but her optimism is grounded in reality.



Morrigan, Zevran and Sten are hardcore realists and pragmatists.

[Giggles_Manically]

The biggest thing that pushes me away from Morrigan is her belief in survival of the fittest. ONly monsters and evil people use it, and that is an excuse to explain ther behaviour. My City Elf hated her so much for saying to feed his family and friends into the blood ritual. My Mages hate her for suggesting the murdering off all her friends. At so many times she is just plain evil and stupid that it is a turn off.



Nothing justifys what she wants ever. Even my most hardcore PC (elf mage) was sickened by what she wanted to do at so many times. While others can see beauty in her romance I can only a person who even after everything values their own goals at a much higher level then the person they love, and that is the final nail in the coffin for me.

[Brockololly]

As far as the whole survival of the fittest angle, I don't entirely agree with Morrigan there, but coming from her upbringing with Flemeth, I can understand her POV. Doesn't mean I agree with it all the time, as my PC's often disagree with Morrigan, but I can appreciate her view of things too.  Its often a bit harsh and heartless but sometimes you have to do some questionable things to get the job done as a Warden.

Like sacrificing the elves- sure it seems reprehensible and amoral, but especially if your PC isn't a city elf, what is to you? They got caged up, thats their fault and Caladrius is offering you an opportunity to increase your power which is no doubt helpful in increasing your chances of defeating the blight. So I understand where Morrigan is coming from when she chimes in on that situation. I often don't have my PCs do it though cause that Caladrius guy is a dolt and I'd rather have some city elves as potential allies in the future rather than a meager boost in constitution.

I guess thats my thing in a lot of RPGs- there are very few characters that I end up actively disliking. Even if they're chaotic evil or whatever, when you try to put yourself in their shoes I'll try to understand where they're coming from and at least if their actions/words make sense character wise thats fine with me. Doesn't mean my PCs will agree with them, but I'm rarely sickened by any of them.

Modifié par Brockololly, 21 juin 2010 - 12:09 .

[Swoo]

I just kicked her from my party in Honnleath, she actually wanted to let that little girl get possessed in return for getting Shale. She may have lost -3 approval there but I think I just lost -100 approval over here. I will never stand for a person to be possessed no what is to gain, that is not only wrong but evil.

At least with that instance in particular- it doesn't make sense for
Morrigan to be ok with demons either.

She loses approval if you lie to the Demon and say you will let it free and then go back on your word, and she will disapprove if Kitty offers you a bribe (Which you have to pay attention to, the 'bribe' dialogue connects to any dialogue tree other than the 'Screw you, I'll kill you now' option) to let her leave without the girl and you refuse and attack her anyway, or you go back on the deal after completing the puzzle.

So basically, if you show yourself to be untrustworthy, she takes a approval knock. If you are turn down the opportunity for personal gain while also doing what you intended and saving the girl, you get an approval knock. There is nothing out of character here for her. Weakening yourself by turning down 'increased power' that personally costs you nothing while at the same time achieving your stated goal makes sense.

The problem arises as to her counsel a lot of times in that as the player of the PC, you know you have plot armor and there is always 'another way'. If you weren't so sure that you could always achieve a 'better option', then her options are usually the 'smart' option, if not a bit heartless at times.

It's nowhere near the same as 'You stood in the way of demonic forces at work, I don't like you.'

The biggest thing that pushes me away from Morrigan is her belief in
survival of the fittest. ONly monsters and evil people use it, and that
is an excuse to explain ther behaviour.

Um...no. There is nothing inheriently good or evil about that, it's just a natural law. You are confusing SotF with social Darwinism. The philosophy of SotF doesn't lend itself to morality at all, it simply states that those that are willing to change or embrace current changes and set themselves up in the most advantageous position for surviving and propsering most commonly succeed, and those that refuse to adapt to change will be replaced naturally or forcibly by those whom did. Social Darwinsim - when boiled down to an over-simplistic definiton - states that it is completely natural and moral for the strong to thrive by explotation of the weak. By games end, Morrigan has lived by survival of the fittest while Loghain has employed social Darwinism.

There is actually a huge gap there in ideology that may not be apparent at first glance. It doesn't help the matter at all when people constantly confuse the two 'laws' as to running parallel with each other.


While others can see beauty in her romance I can only a person who even
after everything values their own goals at a much higher level then the
person they love, and that is the final nail in the coffin for me.

So you see yourself then. You've stated your duty trumps all, and if you romanced her and then turned down the DR, you just did the exact same thing you damn her for.

and its only Morrigan at the end who fears death really, and death to me is not something to fight or fear, just something we all have to accept.... I am sorry but Morrigan in that scene shows you that she only ever cared for herself, and only herself.

You keep saying things that are completely wrong. She doesn't fear death, she even mentions that she doesn't. She believes in a cause greater than herself that is worth paying any sort of price to achieve, even turning her back on acceptance and her own wants and desires. So basically, she picks duty over any personal reasons in the end. Your own reasoning for the anti-DR is the same exact path - You believe it is your duty to end the Blight by giving up your own soul to take out the Archdemon, and you won't veer from that path no matter what. So you both believe duty comes over yourself, and is worth any price. So either you praise both of you for having the same virtues and convictions, or you damn both of you, but you can't give the thumbs up to one and thumbs down to the other for doing the exact same thing.

.So you potentially butt-humped the entire world just to make your GF happy?

And you potentially did the same by turning it down. The Chantry is a proven oppressive power that looks down on non-humans and magical beings, and has attributed many 'crimes' of mankind against enemies of the CoL that are called into question as bunk in game.

There is enough in game to say the rise of an unfettered, uncorrupted Urthemiel is a good thing as it could be a bad thing. It comes down to one of the worst backings you ever run into in arguments/discussions, faith and your own point of view. You can't really ever win or lose an argument when those are the lynchpins of discussion, you just run around in circles until someone gets fed up.

My Warden was no where near his in-character persona in the exchange between the two at the DR and for that I've been angry for months

Can't really argue that. It's been well documented that the major disconnect of the Dark Ritual is that it was a plot point that was decidedly not one-size-fits-all, yet it was presented that way even when the lead writer had other intentions for it. It was a failure on Bioware and EA's part, and it has possibly sullied the momentum of the story to keep the cards to the vest for a future game. Make no mistake, they've said her story isn't over and answers will be had, but hardlining you into yes or no and no real why's really put a dent into it.


The part where she leaves you if you decline the DR is a slap in the face.

Yes it was, but it was a slap in her face just as much as it was for you. She had a mission just like you did, and at the very end you stood up and told her you wouldn't let her complete it. The question of was it right or wrong can be argued forever currently with no true conclusion coming up, but that's the fact. If a NPC or a party member came up to you in Redcliffe the night before the battle and told you they wouldn't allow you to kill the Archdemon, how would you react? You'd either punt them from the group, or kill them outright. Betrayal sucks, and just as much as we can make the argument that she betrays us at the very end by absconding on the eve of battle, it's just as much on us as well...especially if there were romantic feelings involved...when we do the same to her and her mission at the very end.

Ugh. So much angst could be avoided if they would have just properly implemented the DR.

Are you serious? Mission Vao was a sweet kid, bit angsty but otherwise
nice.

I found her sunny and impossibly optimistic outlook a little too much like the Disney lovable scamp archtype personally. I don't think I'd go so far as to say I hated her character, just more that her character didn't impress on me any feelings one way or another which may be the most damning thing you can say about that/them.


Her walking away if you refuse her Ritual was the coldest, darkest
thing I've experience in a video game.

You need to play more RPGs then. There was a Cthulu one a few years ago hopping on the FPS/RPG bandwagon that ended with you shooting yourself instead of dealing with the final boss, that pissed me off. There's been tons of other horrible moments in RPGs that just floor you.

The DR was more a 'well, that's dissapointing' than anything.

Modifié par Swoo, 21 juin 2010 - 12:11 .

[Ash Wind]

The elf-slaver choice is the one time she really disappoints me. It’s toward the end of the game and if there is to be a romance it’s already occurring. I am not going to try to justify her position; anyway I look at it, it’s wrong… I would expect Morrigan just out of the Wilds to advocate their slaughter for a personal increase in power; I expected a little more from romanced Morrigan.



They had an opportunity to show some growth in her character but let it pass. It would have been nice if you romanced her, her point of view changed and she approved of the rejection of the deal.



Whenever the DR comes up, it’s that choice that gives me call to hesitate. And make me believe there may be some serious repercussions for making that particular deal with the devil.

[Swoo]

Ash Wind wrote...
Whenever the DR comes up, it’s that choice that gives me call to hesitate. And make me believe there may be some serious repercussions for making that particular deal with the devil.

Oh absolutely. I am aware of the fact that my choice may bite me in the ass in end, but I believe that I made the right choice in what I did.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

The part where she leaves you if you decline the DR is a slap in the face.

Yes it was, but it was a slap in her face just as much as it was for you. She had a mission just like you did, and at the very end you stood up and told her you wouldn't let her complete it. The question of was it right or wrong can be argued forever currently with no true conclusion coming up, but that's the fact. If a NPC or a party member came up to you in Redcliffe the night before the battle and told you they wouldn't allow you to kill the Archdemon, how would you react? You'd either punt them from the group, or kill them outright. Betrayal sucks, and just as much as we can make the argument that she betrays us at the very end by absconding on the eve of battle, it's just as much on us as well...especially if there were romantic feelings involved...when we do the same to her and her mission at the very end.

Ugh. So much angst could be avoided if they would have just properly implemented the DR.

I can understand from Morrigan's POV why she would feel betrayed if the romancing Warden turned down the DR. But my primary gripe is that "Morrigan" aka "Gaider and the writers" are so stingy with details on what the DR entails, that it rips you out of the drama of the scene. Instead of pondering this big choice, you're like "Wait, I can;t ask any more questions?" This is where the Plot Hammer falls hard I believe: If we were thinking of this solely in the DA world, if the DR was soooooo important to Morrigan don't you think she'd be at least willing to shed a little more light on it if it meant the difference between her getting the OGB and her leaving? I just think she generally doesn't do a very good job convincing the Warden. She is asking a lot for the Warden to trust in her when she has been harboring this secret plan all along. And then she is going to go all childish and shut down when you try and ask her to elaborate on her plans? Its one of the reasons I hate the DR scene- it should be the climax of everything Morrigan, yet everything in it is handled so ham-fisted and one size fits all.

I get that the writers wanted to make it seem sketchy and keep Morrigan's motivations shrouded in mystery, but combined with the cookie cutter nature of the scene, it just rubs people the wrong way and really very quickly breaks much of her character development up to that point. I've said it before, but my long term enjoyment of DAO will likely only come when we know what the significance (or insignificance) of Morrigan and the OGB really are.And that IMO, is part of the problem with many BioWare games- they throw the BIG choice at you right before the end of the game, so unless its a life/death choice, you never see the consequences, except maybe in a epilogue slide.

[Brockololly]

Ash Wind wrote...

They had an opportunity to show some growth in her character but let it pass. It would have been nice if you romanced her, her point of view changed and she approved of the rejection of the deal.

Or at least have the chance to convince her otherwise. I wouldn't want them to take away Morrigan's hard edge, but I always like the opportunities you have to try and have her see the other POV. Case in point being the Anvil of the Void- she is all in favor of using it as you'd have the "power to rival the Maker himself," I think she says. Yet you can go " So,   you wouldn't mind being a big strong golem then?" And of course she backs down.

I'd just like to have seen by the end, have a chance to convince Morrigan otherwise in one of those sorts of scenarios and just have her say " Ok, I maybe you're right."

[Ash Wind]

Now, as far as how Morrigan treats other companions…



I’m not even going to get into what Flemeth has taught her. That aside, all her life she is hunted or shunned. She’s always the outsider just because of what she is, not who she is. I think her ‘attitude’ is both a mixture of inexperience with friendship and a defense mechanism.



She’s been shunned and feared all her life. Why should she think the companions are going to be any different, and in some cases, they are exactly like what she has come to expect. And her inexperience makes her act that way for fear of getting close.



Nothing illustrates this attitude more than the Shape Shifter Specialization. Early on, you mean nothing to her, she means nothing to you… and yet unlike virtually every other companion who has a skill to unlock, she offers it freely from the start.



Not even golden boy Alistair does that, he makes you earn the Templar specialization. She doesn’t.



Its only when you start to get through to her (around approval 26) that she will not teach you the skill. Completely opposite to all others in the game. Like she’s afraid of getting too close, and tries to drive up walls in order to keep people at a safe, and preferably adversarial distance. It’s because it’s what she knows. She doesn’t know friendship, and until she learns Flemeth’s plan, never feels it’s something she has to subject herself to.

[Giggles_Manically]

In the end the DR shows you one thing:

Morrigan does not trust the Warden, since she does not tell you everything. If she can not trust a friend or a lover, than I can never trust her. People go on saying that they owe her, but hey you got rid of Flemeth for her. Yet she dosent tell you that mommy dearest can turn into a dragon?



At the end I owe her nothing, beyond what I already did for her. She got all she could want and yet she is the mortally offended one in that scene? Maybe if she warned you I would take her offer, but if she thinks I will do the DR and simply trust a non answer then she is wrong.



Not that I hate Morrigan I just really do not get along with her:

Leaving Redcliffe

Slaughtering the Mages

Sacrificing the Elves



Simply because they are not strong enough to fight is no excuse to leave them to die, People like her are why societies get screwed up. While this is just my opionion, personally Morrigan is the one companion i can never get along with ever.

[Swoo]

Or at least have the chance to convince her otherwise. I wouldn't want
them to take away Morrigan's hard edge, but I always like the
opportunities you have to try and have her see the other POV. Case in
point being the Anvil of the Void- she is all in favor of using it as
you'd have the "power to rival the Maker himself," I think she says. Yet
you can go " So,   you wouldn't mind being a big strong golem then?"
And of course she backs down.

I'd just like to have seen by the
end, have a chance to convince Morrigan otherwise in one of those sorts
of scenarios and just have her say " Ok, I maybe you're right."

She’s been shunned and feared all her life. Why should she think the
companions are going to be any different, and in some cases, they are
exactly like what she has come to expect. And her inexperience makes her
act that way for fear of getting close.

Well she says herself she expected to be kicked out of the group the moment you left the Wilds, and was amazed and a little mystified why you kept her around.

The Elven-Teventir situation is just a bad one no matter how you cut it. I've always wondered just how much a person is to fault for what they are taught by the society they are brought up in. And then you have to wonder about that moral gray-scale as to which is 'worse', and if it's even possible to maintain a moral high ground when confronted with what's basically just hypocrisy of your verbage.

The Teventir's and Orleasean's are big on slaves/indentured servitude, and always have been. Does it make a person instantly evil or morally reprehensible for believing that is an accepted and normal part of culture if you never experience a true counterpoint to it? Even Leliana - whom I am a fan of character wise - finds it perfectly acceptable and normal for the Elves in Orlais to endure thralldom even after living in Ferelden for several years.

And is it really 'better' to shove Elves into a shanty, strip them of personal rights and freedoms, eradicate their language and history, separate commerce and gathering grounds, use a lower, looser set of standards for them, while damning the notion of slavery/serfdom/thralldom (whichever word sits better with you) as barbaric and morally reprehensible?

Just a thought I've had when reading about many older cultures from time to time.

EDIT: Ugh, I love how these forums mangle posts. Truly.

Modifié par Swoo, 21 juin 2010 - 01:07 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Dont the city elves lives improve at the end greatly if you save the Alienage? At least I always do, can you say Helm's Deep Charge with Kardol and the Legion, hells yah.



I didnt know that MOrrigan would dissaprove of so much in Redcliffe. I took her their as my DC who was romancing her, yeash you lose so much approval agreeing to help. Also getting dumped right after the battle probably didnt help either.

[Swoo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dont the city elves lives improve at the end greatly if you save the Alienage? At least I always do, can you say Helm's Deep Charge with Kardol and the Legion, hells yah.

I didnt know that MOrrigan would dissaprove of so much in Redcliffe. I took her their as my DC who was romancing her, yeash you lose so much approval agreeing to help. Also getting dumped right after the battle probably didnt help either.

It actually gets much worse for the City Elves unless you played as a City Elf and ask to be made a Bann of the Alienage, or Alistair is crowned and he promotes Shianni up. But that doesn't mean it instantly becomes anything less than horrible for them, if you put a nation like Nauru on a council full of three hundred United States, they are going to get drowned out and overwritten quite a lot. It's a step in the right direction - possibly - but nothing is guaranteed, and it's only Denerim. Everywhere else in the world, and even in the majority of Ferelden, it's going to be same old, same old for the Elves.

It should also be pointed out that as long as the Chantry is in power, Elves (and Dwarves) will be second class citizens. It says right in the Chant of Light that the non-human is the one who has fallen furthest from grace and needs to be watched the most. Ah, nothing like a bit of xenophobia thrown into the dogma, no?

Just makes me feel a bit better that I might have thrown an Old God into the mix. Say what you want about them, the cultures that worshipped the Old God's were a meritocracy, much like the vibe I get off the Qunari (which could be totally wrong, need Herr Uhl around to answer that one.)

Redcliffe is pointless and you don't need to get involved with in the grander scheme of things.  It's not just Morrigan who says this, but pretty much every other character (like Sten) who believes in a more practical outlook of warfare and reaching the endgame rather than putting yourself at uneeded risk or eating up time and resources you may not have. I haven't abandonded Redcliffe yet, but I can at least see where they are coming from.

Modifié par Swoo, 21 juin 2010 - 01:54 .

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

Redcliffe is pointless and you don't need to get involved with in the grander scheme of things.  It's not just Morrigan who says this, but pretty much every other character (like Sten) who believes in a more practical outlook of warfare and reaching the endgame rather than putting yourself at uneeded risk or eating up time and resources you may not have. I haven't abandonded Redcliffe yet, but I can at least see where they are coming from.

Thats the thing I always hate in RPGs. Often times you have a chance to do something which in practical terms RP wise would make sense and be the prudent choice. Like not messing around with an undead invasion of unknown strength and origin in Redcliffe. Yet as a gamer, you don't want to pass up an entire quest line! I just wish that games kind of gave you an equal but opposite path in instances like that. Its the same thing with passing up or killing off companions- even if my PC might kill or ditch a companion, at least for the 1st couple play throughs I 'll never do it for fear of missing out on stuff.