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[Giggles_Manically]

I see Redcliffe as being very strategically sound. The Wardens need allies at that moment, and saving the village gets a Bann, and possibly a Arl on your side. It makes more sense to get their aid than to leave them to die. Then again ignoring Morrigan is often the safest route, although she does approve of saving the Werewolves, by ending the curse.

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I see Redcliffe as being very strategically sound. The Wardens need allies at that moment, and saving the village gets a Bann, and possibly a Arl on your side. It makes more sense to get their aid than to leave them to die. Then again ignoring Morrigan is often the safest route, although she does approve of saving the Werewolves, by ending the curse.

But the issue with Redcliffe is akin to the DR- you're walking into a situation where you have no idea what the outcome could possibly be. Its a huge risk. The safe route is to avoid Redcliffe as you have no idea what sort of undead invasion you're facing and on top of that you have no idea if Arl Eamon is even alive at that point.  Do you take the risky chance of trying to stop an undead invasion when that is not your duty as a Warden? Sure you need allies, but there are plenty more human allies to be found elsewhere.

[Fishy]

blademaster7 wrote...

Yeah, I mentioned this before. Here's what I wrote in some other thread. I wasn't 100% sure at first but seeing how it works the same for everyone, I'm calling it an import error.

There is an inconsistency with that ending as I found out.

If you got the ring in your DAO epilogue then you won't get the Awakening  epilogue for Morrigan.


In order to get the ring text for Morrigan in DAO you have to trigger a  specific conversation during the final battle. If you trigger it, your  approval will switch from love to friendly and the game will assume the  romance ended(which in fact does end so it's not a bug).

If you  import that save into Awakening it will not recognize the romance (even  though the ring in the epilogue made it blatantly obvious that it's still there). The reason is simply because the approval was "friendly"  when you imported your save. I see irony in this because the ring text  is the climax of Morrigan's romance and it only comes up if you changed  her approval to friendly.

My guess is, they overlooked it. You did nothing  wrong. The game just didn't properly recognize it.

The thing is, if you trigger the ring epilogue, Awakening assumes you didn't romance her. The only way to get the Morrigan mention in Awakening is by not talking to her during the final battle in order to keep the approval at "love". You won't get the ring in your epilogue but Awakening will recognize the romance.

Messed up.

No .. Because she broke up with the Warden  . Because if you talk to her after the gates.You're just an annoying brat who don't seem to understand that she need to leave.That she does not belong to you.That she's not your possession.

I never talked to her after the gates  and thus never got the *sorrow thing* and was wondering for a long time how ppl got that epilogues.

I'm also tired of ppl trying to always get the most perfect ending.So a block of message will tell you that morrigan wait for you with her leg wide open in your bed when you come back from killing darkspawn..

You're the  frigging  Hero Warden . You're not destined to be a homeboy.You're like a jedi in star wars.Get over it Anakin .

[Giggles_Manically]

Brockololly wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I see Redcliffe as being very strategically sound. The Wardens need allies at that moment, and saving the village gets a Bann, and possibly a Arl on your side. It makes more sense to get their aid than to leave them to die. Then again ignoring Morrigan is often the safest route, although she does approve of saving the Werewolves, by ending the curse.

But the issue with Redcliffe is akin to the DR- you're walking into a situation where you have no idea what the outcome could possibly be. Its a huge risk. The safe route is to avoid Redcliffe as you have no idea what sort of undead invasion you're facing and on top of that you have no idea if Arl Eamon is even alive at that point.  Do you take the risky chance of trying to stop an undead invasion when that is not your duty as a Warden? Sure you need allies, but there are plenty more human allies to be found elsewhere.

Every big descion is like this in the game:
Mages or Templars
Werewolves or Elves
Dwarves - Kings, the anvil, and golems. personal fav. quest line.
THe Landsmeet

practically every descion has its ups or downs, plus and minuses as it where.

[Giggles_Manically]

Suprez30 wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Yeah, I mentioned this before. Here's what I wrote in some other thread. I wasn't 100% sure at first but seeing how it works the same for everyone, I'm calling it an import error.

There is an inconsistency with that ending as I found out.

If you got the ring in your DAO epilogue then you won't get the Awakening  epilogue for Morrigan.


In order to get the ring text for Morrigan in DAO you have to trigger a  specific conversation during the final battle. If you trigger it, your  approval will switch from love to friendly and the game will assume the  romance ended(which in fact does end so it's not a bug).

If you  import that save into Awakening it will not recognize the romance (even  though the ring in the epilogue made it blatantly obvious that it's still there). The reason is simply because the approval was "friendly"  when you imported your save. I see irony in this because the ring text  is the climax of Morrigan's romance and it only comes up if you changed  her approval to friendly.

My guess is, they overlooked it. You did nothing  wrong. The game just didn't properly recognize it.

The thing is, if you trigger the ring epilogue, Awakening assumes you didn't romance her. The only way to get the Morrigan mention in Awakening is by not talking to her during the final battle in order to keep the approval at "love". You won't get the ring in your epilogue but Awakening will recognize the romance.

Messed up.

No .. Because she broke up with the Warden  . Because if you talk to her after the gates.You're just an annoying brat who don't seem to understand that she need to leave.That she does not belong to you.That she's not your possession.

I never talked to her after the gates  and thus never got the *sorrow thing* and was wondering for a long time how ppl got that epilogues.

I'm also tired of ppl trying to always get the most perfect ending.So a block of message will tell you that morrigan wait for you with her leg wide open in your bed when you come back from killing darkspawn..

You're the  frigging  Hero Warden . You're not destined to be a homeboy.You're like a jedi in star wars.Get over it Anakin .

<HEAVY VOICE>
I SEE TROLL!

[Swoo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I see Redcliffe as being very strategically sound. The Wardens need allies at that moment, and saving the village gets a Bann, and possibly a Arl on your side. It makes more sense to get their aid than to leave them to die. Then again ignoring Morrigan is often the safest route, although she does approve of saving the Werewolves, by ending the curse.

But the issue with Redcliffe is akin to the DR- you're walking into a situation where you have no idea what the outcome could possibly be. Its a huge risk. The safe route is to avoid Redcliffe as you have no idea what sort of undead invasion you're facing and on top of that you have no idea if Arl Eamon is even alive at that point.  Do you take the risky chance of trying to stop an undead invasion when that is not your duty as a Warden? Sure you need allies, but there are plenty more human allies to be found elsewhere.

Every big descion is like this in the game:
Mages or Templars
Werewolves or Elves
Dwarves - Kings, the anvil, and golems. personal fav. quest line.
THe Landsmeet

practically every descion has its ups or downs, plus and minuses as it where.

But it's not a 'big' decision. You can leave the town of Redcliffe to fight the zombies on their own (and get wiped out) and it changes absolutely nothing to the meta-plot. You lose out on experience, an item or two, but that's it. You don't have to get involved unless you want too. The Circle, Brecillian Forest, Underground, and Landsmeet you have to deal with, you have no choice in the matter, it's just a question of which side you are going to take.

That's what members like Morrigan and Sten stress, that you have bigger problems and even bigger fish to fry than to stop and defend a town while the Blight is picking up strength and Loghain is hunting down Warden supporters and trying to consilidate power. I didn't say I agreed with them, but I totally see where they are coming from and it does make sense if you are looking at it from a purely tactical standpoint.

[Swoo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I see Redcliffe as being very strategically sound. The Wardens need allies at that moment, and saving the village gets a Bann, and possibly a Arl on your side. It makes more sense to get their aid than to leave them to die. Then again ignoring Morrigan is often the safest route, although she does approve of saving the Werewolves, by ending the curse.

But you aren't leaving the Bann or the Arl to die, or losing out on human soldiers. You are letting one town die to save an entire Arling. It's like Revan from KOTOR; He pulled defenses from outer planets to make sure the central, important ones were impossible to take down. The outer planets got rocked, but the ones he wanted to keep the Mandalorians couldnt take from him.

I do agree with you on the morality of it Giggles, like I said I don't leave them to die. But it's not bad advice, it's just practical (heartless?) advice. Some people may not see the difference in it, but I do.

[Giggles_Manically]

In Rome Total War I often hit the problem of losing small outlying places to keep larger armies at bay. What was really bad is the time I took about 7 of my elite pratorians and ordered them into a death situation to halt the Gauls I lost them to a man, but got my Calvary, archers, and siege equipment out in time to win the next battle.



While moralitly often means nothing in wartime, me personally I would not hesitate to help them. Even my Dalish stopped to help them and he had a hard enough time with humans as it was.

[Leeaire]

I must say, after playing and replaying DAO (I havent played the expansion yet) and talking to a bunch of my friends about the romances in the game, the Morrigan romance was definitely the best in the game.



There was just a sense of great character development within that romance.From her giving him the ring and eventually having that moment at the end of the game where she does admit to have "feelings" for the warden, it was just very well written. Then you think about how complex Morrigan is as a character and you realize maybe she was just using your warden the entire time. Because of how this romance ended in DAO, I've been contemplating writing a short story based on what happened. The reason I'm excited about this potential plot line is because there are so many great opportunities to write about situations that could possibly occur.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I see Redcliffe as being very strategically sound. The Wardens need allies at that moment, and saving the village gets a Bann, and possibly a Arl on your side. It makes more sense to get their aid than to leave them to die. Then again ignoring Morrigan is often the safest route, although she does approve of saving the Werewolves, by ending the curse.

But the issue with Redcliffe is akin to the DR- you're walking into a situation where you have no idea what the outcome could possibly be. Its a huge risk. The safe route is to avoid Redcliffe as you have no idea what sort of undead invasion you're facing and on top of that you have no idea if Arl Eamon is even alive at that point.  Do you take the risky chance of trying to stop an undead invasion when that is not your duty as a Warden? Sure you need allies, but there are plenty more human allies to be found elsewhere.

And that's why Redcliff sucks. It forces you to go after Eamon, even if he is not that useful.

In these current circumstances, abandoning the village is the bad choice, because you are forced to go back and fight more undead (dead villagers) in the castle.

Forcing us to find the Sacred Ashes is equally, if not more idiotic.
 So to enjoy both these quests, I don't think strategicaly at all and just go with the flow. Otherwise I will hate it.

[Master Shiori]

She does trust you. That is shown by allowing herself to fall in love with you, despite everything she knows telling her otherwise.
As for DR the reason you won't get the answers is because the writers don't want you to know. Kind of hard to ask something when you have no option of doing so. I couldn't ask "Why are you doing this?", "Why do you have to leave?" or "What exactly do you plan to do with the child?" because those questions weren't available. 
If I don't show interest in learning these things why should Morrigan explain them on her own?
Sorry, but you got hit by a plot hammer there and any complains you might have should be directed at the writers, and not the character.

As for her advice on how to deal with quests, these do come across as amoral, but they're pragmatic rather than evil.
Morrigan never takes joy out of committing an evil act nor does she go out of her way to harm another. She is no saint, but isn't a devil either.

Redcliffe:
She basically tells you to not waste your resources saving a village of questionable worth. People here aren't warriors anyway and have already suffered losses. The arl may as well be death or at least isn't in a position to help you. Her idea of moving on and leaving the village steams from preserving your own strength and not wasting the lives of your companions in a fight that may or may not be beneficial to you in a long run.

Mages:
Easy to understand as well. You have no idea how many mages are even alive by this point. Wynne and her 3 companions might be all that's left of the Circle. On the other hand you have a number of templars alive and willing to aid you and they can even call for reinforcements if needed.
Not only that but mages have proven themselves to be weaklings who'd rather bow down to Chantry's oppression than fight for their freedom. They all moan and complain about how hard life in the tower is and how the templars are always watching, yet never have the courage to try and change that.
Morrigan herself has been hunted as an apostate all her life, she has faced hardship, death and hate on regular basis yet never gave in and allowed herself to be caged simply for being born with magical talents.

Elves in Denerim:
Pretty much the same as the mages. Elves allow themselves to be oppressed by the humans, have little or no formal military training or discipline, and their support means nothing in the Landsmeet. Hell, once the battle of Denerim starts YOU have to save them AGAIN and then they run off and leave you to face the rest of the darkspawn alone. Oh, but they'll give you a ring as thanks. Lovely...
If killing such people makes you stronger and increases your chance of stopping the Blight then it would be a pragmatic thing to do, even if morally wrong.
As a Grey Warden you're not bound by morality. Victory is all that matters and any method that gets you there is acceptable.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 21 juin 2010 - 09:50 .

[blademaster7]

Swoo wrote...

The part where she leaves you if you decline the DR is a slap in the face.

Yes it was, but it was a slap in her face just as much as it was for you. She had a mission just like you did, and at the very end you stood up and told her you wouldn't let her complete it. The question of was it right or wrong can be argued forever currently with no true conclusion coming up, but that's the fact. If a NPC or a party member came up to you in Redcliffe the night before the battle and told you they wouldn't allow you to kill the Archdemon, how would you react? You'd either punt them from the group, or kill them outright. Betrayal sucks, and just as much as we can make the argument that she betrays us at the very end by absconding on the eve of battle, it's just as much on us as well...especially if there were romantic feelings involved...when we do the same to her and her mission at the very end.

Ugh. So much angst could be avoided if they would have just properly implemented the DR.

Swoo, allow me to repeat what barbarossa said earlier and say that the mission of the Grey Wardens did not rely on Morrigan, but Morrigan's mission sure as hell relied on the Grey Wardens.

She wasn't in any position to be giving ultimatums. In fact, I think my PC was in far better position to force her hand to come clean.

She loves me and yet she is not even willing to tell me what she will do with my child, and why they need to get away from me. And then she's angry at ME for refusing her offer? Where the option to make my Warden angry at her for not telling him what he needs to know?

I'm pretty certain no matter how the DR was supposed to play she would still have the same attitute. Sure, it could have been a lot more emotional and a bit easier to swallow, but it was obvious to me that the writers didn't want us to know what they plan on doing with her.

So to conclude, the slap I got from the DR didn't come from Morrigan but from a contrived™* plot hook. At least that's what I like to think.

* The word belongs to barbarossa

Modifié par blademaster7, 21 juin 2010 - 09:13 .

[Master Shiori]

blademaster7 wrote...

Swoo wrote...

The part where she leaves you if you decline the DR is a slap in the face.

Yes it was, but it was a slap in her face just as much as it was for you. She had a mission just like you did, and at the very end you stood up and told her you wouldn't let her complete it. The question of was it right or wrong can be argued forever currently with no true conclusion coming up, but that's the fact. If a NPC or a party member came up to you in Redcliffe the night before the battle and told you they wouldn't allow you to kill the Archdemon, how would you react? You'd either punt them from the group, or kill them outright. Betrayal sucks, and just as much as we can make the argument that she betrays us at the very end by absconding on the eve of battle, it's just as much on us as well...especially if there were romantic feelings involved...when we do the same to her and her mission at the very end.

Ugh. So much angst could be avoided if they would have just properly implemented the DR.

Swoo, allow me to repeat what barbarossa said earlier and say that the mission of the Grey Wardens did not rely on Morrigan, but Morrigan's mission sure as hell relied on the Grey Wardens.

She wasn't in any position to be giving ultimatums. In fact, I think my PC was in far better position to force her hand to come clean.

She loves me and yet she is not even willing to tell me what she will do with my child, and why they need to get away from me. And then she's angry at ME for refusing her offer? Where the option to make my Warden angry at her for not telling him what he needs to know?

I'm pretty certain no matter how the DR was supposed to play she would still have the same attitute. Sure, it could have been a lot more emotional and a bit easier to swallow, but it was obvious to me that the writers didn't want us to know what they plan on doing with her.

So to conclude, the slap I got from the DR didn't come from Morrigan but from a contrived™* plot hook. At least that's what I like to think.

* The word belongs to barbarossa

Honestly, we don't know that.

Considering how old Flemeth is and that she can even see the future I find it hard to believe she wouldn't predict the possibility of Morrigan coming back without the "bun in the owen". Relying solely on the DR is akin to putting all your eggs in one basket.
And let's not even forget what Morrigan does if you refuse the DR. She goes to Orlais and insinuates herself into the Orlesian court. From what we know of her she certainly doesn't care about politics or social status, so her actions must lead to the accomplishment of some greater goal.

For all we know DR could have simply been "plan A" and Morrigan might also have "plan B" up her sleeve in case the first try failed.

[Giggles_Manically]

@Master Shiori-

Redcliffe- The PC is in charge and saving the village is the right thing to do, leaving people to people killed and turned into more zombies is stupid as hell. Better to confront the problem head on and save as many people from becoming monsters as possible, then leave for the already large number of undead to become larger.



Mages- Its not nicknamed Dragon mAge orgins for nothing. The mages stay in the circle to protect themselves from reprisals from local yocals, just as much to stay under chantry law. Sadly with how stupid and willing many mages seem to be for dabbling into the dark arts I see a need for templars. While I disagree with the abuse the templars give out, you can not argue their nessecity in the long run. More for the fact that I am not going to kil shellshocked people who are fleeing from demons, just to make the witch happy, and to reinforce her anti-circle fantasies



Alienage Elves- The elves dont chose to live their, plenty run off to live in the Bannorn, or flee to Dalish clans (as evidenced by the Dalish Origin) they are forced to live their by the majoity. LIke Morrigan and Flemeth were forced to live in the swamps to avoid the majority who didnt like them ( TEMPLARS and chantry). More to the point I will be damned before I will even think of killing people, slaves no less to help myself. They did nothing to deserve their fate, and even if for some magic reason Caledrius could end the blight I would still kill that bastard every time. All you get is I think one point in constituion anyway, besides while a useful Spec, blood magic is wrong and just plain dangerous ( see every blood mage in game Avernus/Circle Tower).



More to the point Grey Wardens are meant to save people, I dont see how resorting to that can honestly help. I mean my Mage who romanced her just wiggled his fingers and slaughtered anything that got in his way.



In short abandoning anything human or decent in times of war leads only to trouble and makes the Wardens little better than darkspawn. Morrigan is a poster child for ends justifying the means, and I personally find anyone who uses disgusting. Look at the last century and see just who were the people who like to use that arguement and what they did.

[Master Shiori]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Master Shiori-

More to the point Grey Wardens are meant to save people, I dont see how resorting to that can honestly help. I mean my Mage who romanced her just wiggled his fingers and slaughtered anything that got in his way.

In short abandoning anything human or decent in times of war leads only to trouble and makes the Wardens little better than darkspawn. Morrigan is a poster child for ends justifying the means, and I personally find anyone who uses disgusting. Look at the last century and see just who were the people who like to use that arguement and what they did.

Dead wrong.

If you listen to Duncan or Riordan you'll understand that your purpose as a Grey Warden isn't to help people, make their lives better or right every wrong on the face of Thedas.

You have only one duty and that is to stop the Blight at ANY cost.

If that involves letting a village be overrun by the undead, preserving an anvil that enslaves souls or sacrificing a bunch of Elves to increase your own power that's exactly what you're expected to do.
Grey Wardens aren't paladins or champions of truth and justice. They accept anyone into their ranks, regardless of morality, past crimes and history, not because they want them to reform, but because these people will stop at nothing to get the job done.

David Gaider was once asked what would Duncan have done in PC's place had he survived Ostagar.

You know what he said?
He would immediately abandon Ferelden to it's fate and join up with Grey Wardens in Orlais to prepare for the Darkspawn invasion once they're done destroying Ferelden.
In short he'd allow every last Elf, Dwarf and Human to die, because doing so would give him a better chance of saving the rest of Thedas.
That is way worse than anything Morrigan ever suggested to my Warden or even worse than what my Warden would ever consider doing, even if I roleplayed him as an evil, self-centered bastard.

All the choices concerning Elves, Mages and Redcliffe I listed before are perfectly acceptable by Grey Warden standards because they will ultimately give you the result you need. Does that mean they're morally acceptable as well? Hell, no!
None of my Wardens ever did those things, but that doesn't mean I don't realize such a choice would have wielded the result I need.

To quote Riordan: "You need to realize what an ugly choice it is to have few protect the many".
Sometimes it comes down to choosing between the lesser of 2 evils, but that won't leave you feeling better about yourself. 

As for Morrigan she is a pragmatist and a realist first and foremost. She never had a luxury of morality when growing up.
In fact, had circumstances been different she'd make a hell of a better Grey Warden than Alistair, because she wouldn't allow anything to stop her from doing what she feels needs to be done. That's what Grey Wardens are about and why I can listen to her advice and understand why she says that even if I don't agree with it.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 21 juin 2010 - 01:21 .

[Giggles_Manically]

See that is what bugs me about the whole notion of being a Warden, I just cant let people die its not in my nature to do that. I would most likely make a ****** poor warden if it came to it, but deep down I believe that the best way to fight is to never retreat and fight over every last inch of ground you give up. Letting an enitre nation burn goes counter to how I fight and believe. In RTW for instance I have had to sacrifice units or cities to keep going but I fight for every scrap of land.

The Darkspawn are powerful yes, but running and drawing another line in the sand is foolish to me, withdrawing may be helpful but the more the darkspawn take the more powerful they get (Broodmothers). What I would do is fight a rearguard battle and wait for reinforcements. Personally there is no justification at all for killing the slaves. I can see the nessecity of the Anvil of the Void, or leaving Redcliffe but nothing justifies a massacare like that. Nothing.

edit- I am not going to follow an orders line if
A) They kinda forget to give the short verion of anything
They practiacally poison their recruits
C) Want kids? To bad!

Personally I would be a Warden if I knew this going in, but since they fudged over everything, I am less inclined to be a model Warden as it where if it means acting like Duncan does.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 21 juin 2010 - 02:22 .

[Master Shiori]

That's why the game has you and Alistair as last of Ferelden's Grey Wardens.



Neither of you know exactly what is expected of Grey Wardens other than to stop a Blight and therefore you're free to do this any way you want.



You can save Ferelden and make it a better place (well, relatively speaking).



My canonical Warden (human noble) saw it as his duty to both save his land and protect his people. He tried to help anyone he could by saving the mages, making Zathrian lift the curse from the werewolves, put Bahlen on the throne because he was the more competent king (even if morally questionable) and save Redcliffe.

He also believed everyone deserves a second chance so he freed Sten and spared Zevran.



He also wanted to show Morrigan that there was another way to live and there were things just as precious as survival and power. He hoped that if he showed her love and friendship that she would return those feelings. She did, but sadly he couldn't change her completely (not that I expected him to).

If I had to make a guess I'd say that Morrigan from the end of DA was a better person than the one I met in Koscari Wilds. If I ever meet her again I'll make sure to continue what I began in Origins.

Maybe it'll work or maybe it won't, but either way I'm not giving up on her.

[Giggles_Manically]

That was the mentality of my first human noble, but Morrigan and her behaviour pushed him away very quickly. He tried to get along with her, but he didnt believe that only strength and survival matter, he didnt want to kill the mages, and he wanted to save Redcliffe, since that is what his father would have done. Needless to say Morrigan were not on speaking terms for about 3/4 of the games once he dumped her. Actually was hard to do but she really bugged him by the time Redcliffe rolled around.

[Master Shiori]

Getting on Morrigan's good side is really easy.



Even if you disagree with her ideas about how to do things (which I do about 80% of the time) you can easily get that approval back through dialogue or gifts.



I had her at about 70 approval right after Lothering and I even lost some points there for forcing the merchant to compromise.

The interesting part is the higher your approval the more you can convince her to come around to your way of thinking.



During the Circle Tower quest I sided with Wynne and the mages and persuaded Morrigan to accept it by reminding her that she could have easily been one of them had things been different.



She actually admitted that she wondered if Flemeth's teaching were truly the only correct way and told me to do whatever I felt was best.



As long as you can pass her persuade checks the aproval loss will be minor.

[Giggles_Manically]

While I am not taking her about now since Wynne is buffing my 2H and, Shale is tanking, and Leliana is backstabbing so well. With Haste my 2H is awsome, with Rejuvinate I can keep using my attacks. Now I am trying to get cone of cold and Mana clash.

[Swoo]

She wasn't in any position to be giving ultimatums. In fact, I think my PC was in far better position to force her hand to come clean.

I can't argue with this. It should have had a why or two thrown in the conversation for sure, but the complete shut-down read to me as they didn't want to spoil Dragon Age 2 (or expansion 2) and give away the secrets yet.

She loves me and yet she is not even willing to tell me what she will do with my child, and why they need to get away from me. And then she's angry at ME for refusing her offer? Where the option to make my Warden angry at her for not telling him what he needs to know?

I thought the Warden had plenty of dialogue that equated to 'Go F Yourself', even kicking her out of the room. And of course she's angry at you; She staked everything on you and you 'failed' her. Very human reaction.

I didn't understand why (from a purely logical RP standpoint) she wouldn't explain more to you. You saved her from Flemeth (maybe), you were a friend and perhaps more based on how you played, it really seems like she would be able to trust you.

I'm pretty certain no matter how the DR was supposed to play she would still have the same attitute. Sure, it could have been a lot more emotional and a bit easier to swallow, but it was obvious to me that the writers didn't want us to know what they plan on doing with her.

Well, I highly doubt she'd have the same attitude. She surely wouldn't come off as cold and buisnesslike the majority of the conversation to someone she is appealing to their emotions and connection with each other, and just a tonal shift in the very same dialogue could have meant all the difference. So no, I can't agree with that one.

Would we have gotten more information? I don't think so. It's pretty obvious it's a reveal for the future that we have to pay for with today's plot, and that just sucks.

So to conclude, the slap I got from the DR didn't come from Morrigan but from a contrived™* plot hook. At least that's what I like to think.

Pretty much.

The interesting part is the higher your approval the more you can
convince her to come around to your way of thinking.

 Exactly so Shiori. It's quite honestly the cracks in Flemeth's indoctrination starting to crumble, and you can see it happening. It makes it very clear that Morrigan has been parroting what she has been raised to say, not exactly what she thinks with all certainty is 'her' way of thinking. I'm sure a good chunk of it is personal belief as well, but a lot of the earlier conversations sound a lot like soldier barking once you see her start to doubt Flemeth.

 It's what I've asked before, how accountable is someone for what they are raised to believe in if they never have a true counter shown to them? I don't know the answer really, it's something to think on. Leliana is very discriminatory towards elves, until a City Elf or Dalish calls her on it and then it changes her point of view. Morrigan is operating under Flemeth's SotF until she starts to see another way.

She actually admitted that she wondered if Flemeth's teaching were truly
the only correct way and told me to do whatever I felt was best.

That's a great quick back and forth between you and her because, like the Black Anvil, you can just see her go 'What Flemeth told me might not be the only way'. I hardly expect her to go soft and sunshine and roses, but when I see her again I expect her to be a bit more understanding of 'human ways'.

The reason I'm excited about this potential plot line is because there
are so many great opportunities to write about situations that could
possibly occur.

That's why it's by far my favorite, it has the best 'legs' out of any potential relationship in the game. And I've said it before, I'm just as open as to whatever the reasonable fascimilie for 'Happily Ever After' a Warden and a Witch could have as a bloody ruin of an end after the reveal of a great betrayal...as long as I have true choice in the way it goes down.

In Rome Total War I often hit the problem of losing small outlying
places to keep larger armies at bay.

I've done the same, but sacrificing men to stall for victory later is the same as abandoning men to achieve victory later. It's one of the only good things they did with Vigil's Keep in that they showed that when you have to look at things from the big picture when dealing with an entire Arling or country even, sometimes a heart is the worst thing you can possibly have. (And explains Anora a bit better as well.)

I just wish that games kind of gave you an equal but opposite path in
instances like that.

Agreed. Losing out on that exp breaks my immersion more quickly than anything else in a RPG. I find myself losing any moral quandry and debating about how screwed character wise will I be if I don't get this gear and levels? Heh.

[Giggles_Manically]

I missed Morrigan a little I admit but she made her choice and I made my mine that is the way of things. The only thing that goes beyond duty, or responsibility to me, is freedom of choice. Everyone should chose their own path, and in the end that is what true strength is.Power is not strength, or survival it is freedom. You can be the greatest King yet be powerless in so many ways, while a person who can get up everyday and go where they want is powerful to me.

Not sure what Morrigan believes but it seems she values survival over everything.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 21 juin 2010 - 10:08 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Well if you lived in a forest and were hunted by Templars several times for just existing and raised by Maker knows what Flemeth is who also wants to take over your body. Survival would be top priority for anyone. I excuse her for being a product of her situation, and I wish she would let us protect her or help her from her problems, but her problems are what drives the plot, so we get punched in the stomach with the plot hammer regarding Morrigan.

[Giggles_Manically]

While I can see why Morrigan acts and does what she does (thanks to Master Shiori, and Swoo again) my friend who beat it only around a month ago could not. However when talking about when he said Morrigan fans were being silly, they should have seen it coming I had a Eureka moment as it where. While not a huge Morrigan fan this is how I said this is what Morrigan fans felt at the end in your situation:

Imagine Leliana coming into your room, and explaining that the entire time she was really a spy for someone in Orlasis the entire time.If you revealed all you knew about the Wardens to someone she cant tell you who, they would provide a potion that would protect you from the AD, since she knew only that the AD will kill the Warden who kills you. After she gets that info she is leaving, and never wants to see you again, and dosent want to be followed ever.

(The risk being that the Wardens get outlawed for their drinking of darkspawn, and AD blood, and their various other practices)



Even after that he still couldnt see how you guys felt in that situation. If they did that to me I would have exploded pretty badly on these boards.



Also did you notice that the bi romances are less complicated at the final, and that the striaght ones are the ones most difficult in the end? Took me a while to get it sadly.

[Giggles_Manically]

Vote in the romance surveys blokes Morrigan is behind.