16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Shiori]

You're right that we can hope for a reunion and even a happy ending if we really want to.



Unless Morrigan is marked by devs as a character who cannot possibly find any kind of lasting happiness (which I somehow doubt) then that kind of ending wouldn't be impossible, especially since nothing we've learned in Origins leads me to believe she is destined for a tragic ending.



Of course, it's all in the hands of the writers. We can ask for whatever we want but they'll do what they think is best in the end.



What I do expect is to see Morrigan again and find out her plans, as well as to have a choice when it comes to deciding how the game ends for her.

I certainly won't stand for another plot hammer to smack me on the head and take away my ability to influence the events based on my actions.



Having that happen once was annoying enough. Do it twice and we should all wonder why there are choices in the first place if they can be negated whenever the writers feel like forcing us down a certain path.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Is it still for sale, or Steam only right now?

Which, PS:T? It's a 10 year old game by Bioware that is STILL better than anything else you will play. I'm sure you can pick it up somewhere on the cheap.

I don't think Planescape was BioWare- it was Black Isle and Chris Avellone as lead designer ( now with Obsidian and working on New Vegas, I believe). But yeah, Planescape is rather amazing, if you can get by the lack of flashy graphics and lack of VA.

[Barbarossa2010]

Master Shiori wrote...

I certainly won't stand for another plot hammer to smack me on the head and take away my ability to influence the events based on my actions.

Having that happen once was annoying enough. Do it twice and we should all wonder why there are choices in the first place if they can be negated whenever the writers feel like forcing us down a certain path.

And I won't stand for it either.  That was my biggest gripe with the game.  Contrived and out of character story elements.  It relly felt unnatural for this player.  Oh and I won't play the next installment just to repeat the same sour ending if this is the MO we can expect out of this series going forward.  No way. 

Gaider said how much he hated "gotcha" moments, but that's exactly what we got with this one, wasn't it?  I'm sure Gaider would say otherwise, but I would disagree vehemently.  I'm really wondering if the DR was a miscalculation and a product of poor envisioning of the player repercussions of the scene or did it happen as intended?  I know some players liked it, but I know that many didn't at the same time.

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Gaider said how much he hated "gotcha" moments, but that's exactly what we got with this one, wasn't it?  I'm sure Gaider would say otherwise, but I would disagree vehemently.  I'm really wondering if the DR was a miscalculation and a product of poor envisioning of the player repercussions of the scene or did it happen as intended?  I know some players liked it, but I know that many didn't at the same time.

As far as the DR being a "gotcha" moment- I guess I'd say it could have been worse. Throughout the game, Morrigan clearly has an ulterior motive and for me at least, I was expecting some sort of big twist or big reveal with Morrigan. So I wasn't surprised when I saw her creepily standing there in front of the fire, but the specifics of her Ritual and desire for the Old God Baby seemingly came out of thin air. About the only clue you have that Morrigan may be interested in having a kid is when you stop by The Wonders of Thedas and she comments on the Chasing Fertility carving.

And with respect to the romance, Morrigan tells you flat out several times that this relationship isn't going to work and it won't end well. And true to her word, she leaves. I wouldn't call her running away too much of a "gotcha" moment either.

Maybe its just a matter of definitions really. As an example, I'd say The Witcher has some "gotcha" moments- points in the game where you're making a semingly innocuous decision in the first couple hours of the game which has an effect dozens of hours later that there is absolutely no way the player could have seen coming. And honestly, so long as those moments are well played out and logical within the confines of the story and allows for the player to RP their emotions appropriately thats ok to me.

Its been said ad nauseum, but the problem I have with the DR isn't that Morrigan necessarily leaves or her reveal of the OGB, its that the PC, especially if you're romancing her, cannot adequately RP the scene and try to dig for answers or at least ask questions one would naturally ask after such a revelation. So it turns whats a good surprise and reveal into a very frustrating scene as the writers are clearly either limiting the questions you can ask of Morrigan or limiting Morrigan's responses to extremely terse almost juvenile responses, seemingly for the sake of not revealing future plot developments.

I mean when you ask Morrigan what will become of the child, its almost like a little kid saying " Nana nana boo boo!" and sticks her tongue out at you. And even if you press her on it, she gives some resoundingly vague response about freedom for an ancient power bla bla- at that point I wanted my Cousland to be like " Are you ****ting me, Morrigan? You think I'm falling for that weak sauce? You're about the most pragmatic, goal oriented person around and you're telling me that you're just going to raise a kid with the soul of a freakin' Old God, basically just for the hell of it? And I'm supposed to just nod my head and say ok?" I wouldn't necessarily expect her to spill the beans there, but to just be able to express your PC's emotions there beyond robotic questions would help the believeability of the scene. Clearly though there was supposed to be more to the DR scene and its a damn shame more time wasn't given to it.

So I guess I wouldn't say the DR is a "gotcha" moment exactly, it just lacks adequate RP choices. At their core, story driven RPGs are really about giving the player the illusion of choice, as you're always playing by whats actually in the game. DAO maintains this illusion pretty well, up until the DR. And at the DR it becomes painfully apparent that you're just playing a game and your responses are totally gimped, as are the answers you're getting from Morrigan.

The DR definitely has the potential to become a full fledged "gotcha" moment though in a sequel, depending on how the OGB plot shakes out. If all of a sudden we see evil Morrigan and OGB leading a darkspawn army all because we did the DR, that would be a "gotcha" moment.

I'm not a fan of the ol' Plot Hammer of Doom, but if its going to be used like it was in  the DR, at least flesh out the scene well enough so that it doesn't seem like your PC is gimped with responses or emotions.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 juin 2010 - 12:45 .

[Swoo]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I'm really wondering if the DR was a miscalculation and a product of poor envisioning of the player repercussions of the scene or did it happen as intended?  I know some players liked it, but I know that many didn't at the same time.

I am a fan of the promise (or tease) of what the Dark Ritual will become, but I am not a fan at all of it's implementation. Hell, one of the first things I did when I found out it was a mangled scene was go to Nexus and see if it was restored in some semblence of sanity (what I found was...not what I was hoping for, heh.)

It's just a damn rough situation. If they handle it correctly, the DR becomes something amazing in the metaplot of Dragon Age, if they drop the ball on it it really is that bad that it can ruin a percentage of fan's enjoyment of the franchise. I'm not hardlining what has to be by any means, but I think I've voiced it to the point of ad nauseam on the path that makes sense to me.

I however don't think the Dark Ritual is Biowares M.O. by any means. Baldur's Gate had an enjoyable enough conclusion, BG2 ended perfectly with enough of a last minute tease to make you drool for BG3, Throne of Bhaal wrapped things up nicely if not a bit too bluntly for what BG2 was. KOTOR had a fantastic stand-alone ending that could have easily concluded Revan and Bastila's stories if another company hadn't come along and wrecked it with KOTOR2. The Mass Effect series seems rather well contained as well. Neverwinter Nights seemed to have a fine enough ending until Obsidian (OBSIIIIIDIAN!) came along and aborted everything with NWN2.

So yeah, I think the disconnect is that the DR is a 'To Be Continued' moment, and since they are so mum on the subject it makes a bad moment even worse.

Oh well, Morrigan!

[Swoo]

Brockololly wrote...
Its been said ad nauseum,

What an unsual coincidence.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Its been said ad nauseum,

What an unsual coincidence.

Seriously. Some diligent person needs to just comb through this thread and make the "Morrigan Manifesto," a series of short essays on everything Morrigan and all of our greivances against BioWare for the vanilla DR scene, why the Warden needs to return and why Morrigan and the Warden need to be reunited for the sake of all Thedas.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 juin 2010 - 12:53 .

[ximena]

Brockololly wrote...

Swoo wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Its been said ad nauseum,

What an unsual coincidence. {smilie}

Seriously. Some diligent person needs to just comb through this thread and make the "Morrigan Manifesto," a series of short essays on everything Morrigan and all of our greivances against BioWare for the vanilla DR scene, why the Warden needs to return and why Morrigan and the Warden need to be reunited for the sake of all Thedas.{smilie}

Someone with a lot of time in their hands, please do this now. XD

Master Shiori wrote...

Swoo wrote...
Are you sure about that? Hahahaha. I have a feeling you won't be
saying that once we get to Chapter 3.

She found the
Bioware PR manual and is hitting it pitch-perfectly it seems.

Honestly,
there are times when Ximena thinks so much like David Gaider that she
freaks me out...

Then I remember that she is a Morrigan fan and
believe things will work out (or at least be better then they were at
the end of Origins).

Ahaha. I am a Morrigan fan so I won't be as harsh as Gaider, but then it's not gonna mean it's all sunshine and rainbow.

[Master Shiori]

ximena wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Swoo wrote...
Are you sure about that? Hahahaha. I have a feeling you won't be
saying that once we get to Chapter 3.

She found the
Bioware PR manual and is hitting it pitch-perfectly it seems.

Honestly,
there are times when Ximena thinks so much like David Gaider that she
freaks me out...

Then I remember that she is a Morrigan fan and
believe things will work out (or at least be better then they were at
the end of Origins).

Ahaha. I am a Morrigan fan so I won't be as harsh as Gaider, but then it's not gonna mean it's all sunshine and rainbow.

No worries.

If it were all "sunshine and rainbows" it wouldn't feel like Dragon Age anyway. 

[Master Shiori]

Morrigan waiting for the Warden to come back after killing Flemeth:

[Giggles_Manically]

Do you guys think Morrigan would say anything RP wise if you are romancing her and spec into being a templar? Wynne does if you are a Bloodmage, I dont imagine Morrigan being thrilled that you are learning all the tips and tricks from Alistair or templaring.

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Do you guys think Morrigan would say anything RP wise if you are romancing her and spec into being a templar? Wynne does if you are a Bloodmage, I dont imagine Morrigan being thrilled that you are learning all the tips and tricks from Alistair or templaring.

I remember when I first got the game and was reading through the manual on the specializations thinking if I had my warrior spec into a templar maybe Morrigan wouldn't be friendly or anything with my PC. Of course there really isn't much of that sort of recognition in the game.

I 'd guess Morrigan might not really mind if the Warden just knew the templar abilities but wasn't an actual Chantry sanctioned Templar. I think she is likely more opposed to the whole Templar mentality and culture more than someone with just the Templar's training and skills.

[Swoo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Do you guys think Morrigan would say anything RP wise if you are romancing her and spec into being a templar? Wynne does if you are a Bloodmage, I dont imagine Morrigan being thrilled that you are learning all the tips and tricks from Alistair or templaring.

This was one of my biggest letdowns in the game, how nobody really ever interacted with the choice you made of what you specializations you picked. When I went Blood Mage I really looked forward to screwing with peoples perceptions since I was not a hidden in the woods, human sacrificing demon worshipper but a just a Mage who was going to do what it took to save Ferelden. Sadly, all I ever got was hearing Wynne and Alistair harp on how Blood Mages are evil and not to be trusted.

I love that cutscene Shiori, Terra outdid himself. Just the little bit walking towards Morrigan at the beginning is so very cinematic.

[Master Shiori]

I don't think Morrigan would mind player having templar abilities.

By the time your approval with Alistair is high enough for him to agree to teach you, Morrigan will get to know you well enough to trust you won't cause her harm.
Besides, it's not like she hasn't faced templars before so the prospect of having to defend herself against a single templar shouldn't present a problem.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 23 juin 2010 - 09:09 .

[Master Shiori]

Here's another interesting question for us to ponder about.



Morrigan says the magic used by Flemeth is different from what the mages in Circle Tower are taught.

Now, we know from the DR that Morrigan has some knowledge about blood magic, even if she isn't a full-fledged blood mage.



Considering that Flemeth is supposed to be an ancient abomination, what sort of magic do you think she taught Morrigan?

Some form of Blood Magic? Ancient tevinter magic? Ancient elven magic?

A mix of different styles?

[Giggles_Manically]

I thought all mages draw their power from mana (the battery of power a mage can draw on), or from Blood. Were other forms even described in DA all that well.

[williboy]

i just beat awakening, WOW THAT WAS SHORT



Anyways, i finished origins with "i will look for morrigan"



nothing in awakening happened at all

[Brockololly]

williboy wrote...

i just beat awakening, WOW THAT WAS SHORT

Anyways, i finished origins with "i will look for morrigan"

nothing in awakening happened at all

Par for the course, I'm afraid...her epilogue is nerfed in Awakening.

[Arttis]

Master Shiori wrote...

Here's another interesting question for us to ponder about.

Morrigan says the magic used by Flemeth is different from what the mages in Circle Tower are taught.
Now, we know from the DR that Morrigan has some knowledge about blood magic, even if she isn't a full-fledged blood mage.

Considering that Flemeth is supposed to be an ancient abomination, what sort of magic do you think she taught Morrigan?
Some form of Blood Magic? Ancient tevinter magic? Ancient elven magic?
A mix of different styles?

Ancient magic.Such as shapeshifting.

[Swoo]

I think Awakening took more time to uninstall than it actually did for me to beat the damn thing.



As to Morrigan's magic, I'm still not convinced that Flemeth is an abomination from the Demon lineage. The more I think on it, the more I'm thinking maybe she's some sort of proxy or lesser power of the Old Gods, and it's some sort of attempt to save the Seven from oblivion. So, in my little conspiracy theory world, I would imagine she would have taught Morrigan the old school ideals of magic that ended up getting passed down to the Teventir Blood Mages and the Arlathan Elves, which would explain the shapeshifting, blood rituals, and the like.



It's also why I think the best 'odds' of meeting her again at the moment is Arl Foreshadow's notes on some of the Arlathan Blood Magi still being alive, holding onto their culture, and keeping the immortality spell going.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

Here's another interesting question for us to ponder about.

Morrigan says the magic used by Flemeth is different from what the mages in Circle Tower are taught.
Now, we know from the DR that Morrigan has some knowledge about blood magic, even if she isn't a full-fledged blood mage.

Considering that Flemeth is supposed to be an ancient abomination, what sort of magic do you think she taught Morrigan?
Some form of Blood Magic? Ancient tevinter magic? Ancient elven magic?
A mix of different styles?

Its a good question- It seems Morrigan isn't big on labeling things as evidenced by the DR when she says that some may call it blood magic, but that is but a name. I'd imagine Flemeth knows all sorts of magic, whether its blood magic a la the Tevinter Imperium, or any other kind out there. Considering Flemeth may or may not be some kind of demon/ abomination thing, who knows what kind of knowledge she has from the Fade?

I think its in the lore that Rivain is the area in Thedas where they really don't have any Chantry or anyone to really control magic users and as such they have wise women or seers that are hedge mages who commune with Fade spirits and even allow themselves to be possessed. Just another sort of magic I suppose. I really look forward to them exploring more of the demonic possession angle and more of blood magic in future DA games/books.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 juin 2010 - 11:11 .

[Fntsybks]

Master Shiori wrote...

Considering that Flemeth is supposed to be an ancient abomination, what sort of magic do you think she taught Morrigan?
Some form of Blood Magic? Ancient tevinter magic? Ancient elven magic?
A mix of different styles?

A variety of things - but clearly not everything Flemeth knew. Most likely, standard circle stuff, mixed with Tevinter and Chasind magic - I never saw anything elven, unless shapeshifting is elven. Similar to the DR, Morrigan knows a lot more than she lets on, and has a very broad knowledge

[Mustang678]

I wonder if Morrigan can learn that spell Flemeth uses to take other people's bodies? You could get a lot of different situations with that further down the timeline, especially if she would be able to give the Warden a new body too

[Giggles_Manically]

Well considering she said the spell only works if you are a powerful abomination, then I doubt she would be able to do anything with it.

[Mustang678]

Oh yeah you're right I didn't really think that one through.
Another thought I just had, wouldn't it be a bit hard to "purify" the old god when a warden is helping to conceive it? With the way Alistair talks the corruption seems to carry over

Modifié par Mustang678, 24 juin 2010 - 01:13 .