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[Master Shiori]

The Grey Wardens know something strange has happened when you reportedly slew the Archdemon and survived.



Alistair and Loghain will even tell you at post-coronation that the Wardens have been asking around trying to discover how you pulled that perticular trick off.



My guess is that, considering how popular you are after the Battle of Denerim and how they need you to rebuild the order in Amaranthine, they choose to ignore it so as to not offend the people of Ferelden.



It would be interesting to see what the Wardens would do if they found out that the Old God's soul is now in the body of an unborn child. Would they try to hunt Morrigan down in order to slay both her and the OGB?

Imagine if you had to defend her from not only the Chantry but your former order as well...

[Ash Wind]

Mustang678 wrote...

Hey, do you guys think Morrigan would've vouched for sparing the Architect or killing him? I could see her go either way

Great question… and I haven’t a concrete answer; I guess that is a nod to the complexity of her character. Lets see…
There’s no obvious power to gain from his death, and I think she inherited Flemeth’s ‘healthy respect’ for the destructive power of a Blight. If she thought he was really trying to end the blights she might favor sparring him.
But by the same token, I would not be surprised if you sparred the Architech and… Morrigan Disapproves -10.

[Ash Wind]

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I feel like we got a wimpy Blight in Origins. By all accounts the Blight is supposed to be some horrific earth shattering thing, yet in Origins it never felt that way. I know it was basically because the Warden stopped it before it even began, but still, it never seemed like much was on the line. You never really doubted that you would fail. I'd like to see more games end like ME2 where there is an ending where you can straight up fail- not just to beat the last boss, but to have people die and really make the endgame be a part where you wonder if you've done everything you could to prepare and succeed.

Oh, I don’t know about that. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t there some reference somewhere stating the first Blight lasted 90 years.  And they didn’t even know how to fight a blight then. Its not like an AD appears and then there’s complete devastation.
The accepted timeline is that DA:O takes place over a year. After their ‘victory’ at Ostagar, other than sacking the 1 horse town of Lothering, and a few minor raids, they don’t seem to do too much for the better part of that year until toward the end when they move on Denerim.

[Ash Wind]

Brockololly wrote...
It just sucks in games when you know there is extra content available but you know its "hidden" and won't see it in one playthrough. I'm not talking about divergent choices or anything but more like conversation stuff- like if you don't take Sten around or if you don't feel like playing dialogue scavenger hunt in Awakening.

That's my fear for a DA:2 with an Awakening Dialogue System. Lost content. You can have an incredible conversation with Character A when you look at the tree in City B... only, you never bring character A to City B so you've lost the content.

There are times I want to talk, and times I want to explore/fight whatever. Aside from lost content, the Awakening system makes me have that conversation when the devs think I should have that conversation, not when I want to. I think that takes away from the immersion and makes it feel more like going through the motions. A glorified easter egg hunt.

I'm think DA:2 will have a combo of both systems, which is certainly doable.

[Swoo]

Sorry for the incoming wall of text, a lot of good points made since I last posted so I'm going to try to hit most of them in one reply.

yes, you'll likely get bored before completion Do Jaheira's arc if you've not done it before, but be sure you've got the fan-made patch installed if you want to actually finish it.

Yeah, I forgot how much I hated Irenicus' starting dungeon. It's funny how much you can actual remember without truly remembering. I'm channeling some straight up Force powers with the 'I think I need to turn on detect traps around here' and 'I think I go southeast to get this for some reason'. Haha, we'll see how far I can get. I did Jaheria's questline all the way through Throne of Bhaal, and I find Aerie to be just way too Disney sweet like Leliana, so I think I'm going for the Drow.

The thing that makes the Architect dangerous is that while his intentions of stopping the Blights aren't bad, he has absolutely no sense of morality.

My biggest problem with the Architect is when you boil it down, his plan to save the Darkspawn is just to turn all their enemies into Darkspawn, hence no more war. I don't care how well his vision of the end game is, turning every human, elf, qunari, and dwarf into a ghoul or a corpse is only really a good idea to the Darkspawn.

So basically the major change to his plan in Awakening is
instead of forcing a change on humans and surfacers to become more like
darkspawn it seems he wants the darkspawn to become more like humans.



Well, he still wants to make everyone into Darkspawn ghouls, he just
wants to inject Warden blood into the process so that you are Darkspawn
ghouls that can't awaken an Old God. So he techincally may want to make
the Darkspawn a little more human, he still wants to make everyone else
into the damned and I just can't see any good points or reason with it.

Hey, do you guys think Morrigan would've vouched for sparing the
Architect or killing him? I could see her go either way



I don't think she'd side with him, his plan has too many obvious holes
with no true payoff to it, and he has no true power to see it to it's end. What forces he had have been destroyed thanks to the Mother and yourself, so his powerbase really consists of himself, a few mental ghoul's and then maybe you. .If he had a
better plan other than 'Everyone becomes us!' and actually had the means to see it through, I think she'd be very
open and willing to listen/follow, but I don't believe for a second
she'd intentionally walk down the path of thralldom herself. It would be
the Black Anvil conversation on steroids, but this time instead of
using 'some' to make the Golems, it would be use 'everyone' and I think
even she would say that's a bad deal.

It would be interesting to see what the Wardens would do if they
found out that the Old God's soul is now in the body of an unborn
child. Would they try to hunt Morrigan down in order to slay both her
and the OGB?



I don't think your Warden would spill the beans on that. It would be
tantamount to signing off on their death warrants most likely, as you
know the Warden's would instantly set off to capture them and Morrigan
is a 'freedom or death' kind of gal. You might tell them 'Magic did it',
but I doubt you would give them the nitty-gritty about the whole
situation. Perhaps that's one of the reasons she ran, she feared
discovery and knew that if the only GW who survived was around her, it
would be like a gigantic beacon shining on her to draw super-templars
after them until they died or were captured.

Yeah, I feel like we got a wimpy Blight in Origins

I don't think the Blight is over. I think an Archdemon died and the horde scattered, but I think another AD or even the remaining two are stirring and about to show up. I would expect it to be 'background noise' in the next game so it's not Blight v.1 straight into Blight v.2, but I think this Blight will go down in history for the fact it will be the first time ever Thedas had to contend with multiple controlling forces that attacked in waves instead of an unrelenting swarm that eventually broke and scattered. I just get the feeling that instead of a complete Blight, we really just took a probing assault and that the real forces are moving into position to go for the kill.

One place I hope will become a key location later on is Weißhaupt Fortress.

I've said this a lot as well. We have no clue what it truly means to be a Grey Warden, we are basically like the battlefield commissioned officers who won the war. What happens when you drop that guy into West Point or the Pentagon? That kind of friction sounds fun to experience.

And RTO made the whole premise of the darkspawn overrunning Ostagar a bit awkward, since you could head back there and head back out with only a seemingly meager amount of darkspawn resistance.

Well, they had moved on from Ostagar. By the time you go to RtO, the Darkspawn have normally sacked Lothering and are currently wrecking stuff in the Bannorn. So, slipping in and out with a very small group of elite fighters without causing a huge ruckus made sense to me. There would be some stragglers still hanging around Ostagar, but the meat of the forces had moved on to where the true action was.

I would like more games where you can play past failures. Hopefully we can have failures of varying significants in later DA installments, some of which can radically affect the outcome of the game at many points.

I like that idea as well. The huge problem you run into when talking about DA morality and choices is that the PC is always snuggled safely in plot armor and always can take the Arthurian high road if he so chooses. So when it comes time to debate on the situation or even look back at your game as a whole, things quickly become very black and white instead of the shades of grey they want the game to be. Having more options that don't always lead to rainbows and sunshine would be nice (and that doesn't mean they have to beat you over the head with an unrelenting storm of death, misery, and lesser of two evils choices either).

After the schism between the Imperial Chantry and the Andrastean Chantry, many mages choose to journey to Tevinter and in order to be free from the Chantry's control. This influx of mages helped the Imperium wheather the Qunari invasions.

I am very much a huge Magi nut, and I love the history DA has set up for all of it. I find the idea of the Romans being Mages fighting as hard as they can to stave off extinction an amazing setting that I would love to get more of. I also don't believe the Teventir's are devout Andrastian's by any means and will go back to the worship of the Old Ways the first chance they think they can take without getting wiped out. I really hope to see more of them, because I believe so much of the Chantry's BS against both Magic and Mankind has used them as whipping boys to cover up the truth.

4) On Magus War Boots in Origins there is an inscription that says magic will rise again in future ages. Could be a hint of what Morrigan is planning to do with the OGB.

Oh, absolutely. It makes the most sense out of what information we have available to us at the moment. The Tevinter's and their Elves allies/slaves worshipped the Old Gods, used Blood Magic, and believed that you rose and fell based on your own merit's and not any ideas of heridetary 'nobility'. It sounds like a perfect place for her and the OGB, and the OGB sounds like the perfect thing to give them that shot at casting off their own shackles of the Chantry and being free again.

In Origins they apparently only attacked Ferelden, which is rather unusual considering their previous modus operandi.

I believe it's Riordian who actually mentions this, saying that it's almost like the Darkspawn intentionally went after Ferelden because they could sense how weak the Warden's were there. If it's true, and it makes sense, then the Darkspawn are learning and aren't the mindless horde they get written off as. That shows intelligence and strategy, and with more AD's out there, people should be very afraid that they just used Urthemiel as a feint.

The problem with Gaider saying you should bring the companions with you in order to experience their dialogue is that it effectively takes away the freedom of choice when it comes to making up your group.

I understand the reasoning behind the companion specific points of interest, it's to stop us from having NPCs who are 100% camp dwellers, and to mix up the groups and experience the stories of all our followers. It doesn't play out that way as people develop their favorite setups and pretty much stick with them, thus I propose if they are going to use PoI in the next game, make it universal.

[MKDAWUSS]

Swoo wrote...


It would be interesting to see what the Wardens would do if they
found out that the Old God's soul is now in the body of an unborn
child. Would they try to hunt Morrigan down in order to slay both her
and the OGB?



I don't think your Warden would spill the beans on that. It would be
tantamount to signing off on their death warrants most likely, as you
know the Warden's would instantly set off to capture them and Morrigan
is a 'freedom or death' kind of gal. You might tell them 'Magic did it',
but I doubt you would give them the nitty-gritty about the whole
situation. Perhaps that's one of the reasons she ran, she feared
discovery and knew that if the only GW who survived was around her, it
would be like a gigantic beacon shining on her to draw super-templars
after them until they died or were captured.

In the post-coronation, the Warden is elusive about what Morrigan did to the other surviving companion. I know Loghain (and I say that because I have the save state right there and can dig up the line [I haven't quite figured out how to get into the dialog strings in the editors yet for this game]) mentioned that he "kept his opinions to himself" (whether it's about Orlais or to the whatever happened in the DR)

Yeah, I feel like we got a wimpy Blight in Origins

I don't think the Blight is over. I think an Archdemon died and the horde scattered, but I think another AD or even the remaining two are stirring and about to show up. I would expect it to be 'background noise' in the next game so it's not Blight v.1 straight into Blight v.2, but I think this Blight will go down in history for the fact it will be the first time ever Thedas had to contend with multiple controlling forces that attacked in waves instead of an unrelenting swarm that eventually broke and scattered. I just get the feeling that instead of a complete Blight, we really just took a probing assault and that the real forces are moving into position to go for the kill.

I think the 5th Blight is over (the AD was slain - that's the end of the ballgame, folks), but the 6th Blight may not be far behind, regardless of what happened with the Architect (though I have to admit, he is the wildcard factor in all that).

One place I hope will become a key location later on is Weißhaupt Fortress.

I've said this a lot as well. We have no clue what it truly means to be a Grey Warden, we are basically like the battlefield commissioned officers who won the war. What happens when you drop that guy into West Point or the Pentagon? That kind of friction sounds fun to experience.

Would there be much friction? I mean, you are still a newbie to the Grey Wardens, even with your impressive record in such a short period of time. I think there may be friction pending on the personality your Warden has, but I would think (or hope) that there wouldn't be a whole lot of friction or tension there. Either way, I would hope that you would learn lots about the Grey Wardens with your time there, both from books and from other Wardens.

And RTO made the whole premise of the darkspawn overrunning Ostagar a bit awkward, since you could head back there and head back out with only a seemingly meager amount of darkspawn resistance.

Well, they had moved on from Ostagar. By the time you go to RtO, the Darkspawn have normally sacked Lothering and are currently wrecking stuff in the Bannorn. So, slipping in and out with a very small group of elite fighters without causing a huge ruckus made sense to me. There would be some stragglers still hanging around Ostagar, but the meat of the forces had moved on to where the true action was.

True. But then that leads to the question of how big the horde actually was.

I would like more games where you can play past failures. Hopefully we can have failures of varying significants in later DA installments, some of which can radically affect the outcome of the game at many points.

I like that idea as well. The huge problem you run into when talking about DA morality and choices is that the PC is always snuggled safely in plot armor and always can take the Arthurian high road if he so chooses. So when it comes time to debate on the situation or even look back at your game as a whole, things quickly become very black and white instead of the shades of grey they want the game to be. Having more options that don't always lead to rainbows and sunshine would be nice (and that doesn't mean they have to beat you over the head with an unrelenting storm of death, misery, and lesser of two evils choices either).

There were a few shades of grey decisions (Circle Tower, King of Orzammar), but I agree - most of it was black and white in retrospect. It was well hidden thanks to the lack of a "good/evil" bar.

4) On Magus War Boots in Origins there is an inscription that says magic will rise again in future ages. Could be a hint of what Morrigan is planning to do with the OGB.

Oh, absolutely. It makes the most sense out of what information we have available to us at the moment. The Tevinter's and their Elves allies/slaves worshipped the Old Gods, used Blood Magic, and believed that you rose and fell based on your own merit's and not any ideas of heridetary 'nobility'. It sounds like a perfect place for her and the OGB, and the OGB sounds like the perfect thing to give them that shot at casting off their own shackles of the Chantry and being free again.

But they have to know about his/her presence, identity, and location first. If Morrigan wants the OGB to be hidden, the only one who might have a shot at finding the two of them would be the Warden if he happened to have her ring.

In Origins they apparently only attacked Ferelden, which is rather unusual considering their previous modus operandi.

I believe it's Riordian who actually mentions this, saying that it's almost like the Darkspawn intentionally went after Ferelden because they could sense how weak the Warden's were there. If it's true, and it makes sense, then the Darkspawn are learning and aren't the mindless horde they get written off as. That shows intelligence and strategy, and with more AD's out there, people should be very afraid that they just used Urthemiel as a feint.

It was Riordan who said that. Also, the darkspawn showed intelligence by having everyone believe that they were going to invade Redcliffe, when instead the horde went to Denerim and everyone was in "oh (excrement)" mode.

The problem with Gaider saying you should bring the companions with you in order to experience their dialogue is that it effectively takes away the freedom of choice when it comes to making up your group.

I understand the reasoning behind the companion specific points of interest, it's to stop us from having NPCs who are 100% camp dwellers, and to mix up the groups and experience the stories of all our followers. It doesn't play out that way as people develop their favorite setups and pretty much stick with them, thus I propose if they are going to use PoI in the next game, make it universal.

Well, I think fewer companions can solve the camp campers problem. Also, you have that problem with several other BioWare games (including Origins) where you have to take these companions over here to have this conversation.


One thing I do want to know (if the Warden did the DR [and possibly the romance - as it could be a factor, especially with Morrigan]) is how the OGB would handle any encounter with his/her father. Would the OGB accept that relationship? Would the Morrigan romance have an impact on the OGB-Warden relationship at all? There is still that human aspect to the OGB after all...

[Fntsybks]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

The DR would make for an interesting convo, but would something like that be something they'd know about happening? I think the only ones who knew would be Morrigan, the Warden, and possibly Alistair or Loghain. From what I could tell, not even your companions knew that Grey Wardens died when slaying an archdemon -- they thought that if you were going to die, it would be because the AD killed you by standard methods. I don't know how detailed their knowledge is of who slew the AD, and if that's the case, no one would question how you survived slaying an AD if you did the DR.

Regardless, having our PC Warden interact with the mainstream GW Order would be worthwhile experience. I still feel disconnected to the Grey Wardens in that respect.

I believe Alistair, if you made him king, talks about questions coming in from the other Wardens about how/why nobody died, and he seemed to imply that he knew about the DR. However, that was a few months ago for me, so I can't remember the exact quote.

As to the Blight not feeling like a true Blight, I agree that Bioware should have taken us somewhere tainted/corrupted. Say, one sidequest after the Landsmeet, as it was stated that parts of the Bannorn/Ferelden had already fallen to the darkspawn. One Fallout-style landscape would have had a huge impact on what I thought of the Blight.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

It would be interesting to see what the Wardens would do if they found out that the Old God's soul is now in the body of an unborn child. Would they try to hunt Morrigan down in order to slay both her and the OGB?
Imagine if you had to defend her from not only the Chantry but your former order as well...

Ooooh.. yes! One of the many reasons I hope we still play as the Warden PC in DA2 is for just that kind of scenario, Shiori. Imagine the Warden along with maybe Alistair/Loghain  being called up to Weisshaupt to explain their whole being alive and getting to interact with all the various Wardens there. Surely there would be Wardens ok with your actions and other hardcore ones that despise them. Then basically have that schism start a Warden civil war! Then basically have it be your PC searching for Morrigan along with the Chantry, Templars, Wardens and Architect all on a manhunt for Morrigan and the OGB! Probably a zero probability of that happening, but one can dream...

Ash Wind wrote...

There are times I want to talk, and times I want to explore/fight whatever. Aside from lost content, the Awakening system makes me have that conversation when the devs think I should have that conversation, not when I want to. I think that takes away from the immersion and makes it feel more like going through the motions. A glorified easter egg hunt. I'm think DA:2 will have a combo of both systems, which is certainly doable.

Exactly- much of what makes a good RPG in my opinion, is how well the developers hide the game mechanics and give the player the illusion of "freedom." Origins did a really good job with this- you could click directly on people and talk when you wanted for the most part. In Awakening though its a mini-game to hunt for dialogue points and even if you find one, you have no idea whats going to happen when you click on it.

The underlying idea behind Awakening's system is good, but I feel like they should have used Origins' system as a foundation to build off of instead of basically scrapping it and trying something totally new.

Swoo wrote...
I did Jaheria's questline all the way through Throne of Bhaal, and I find Aerie to be just way too Disney sweet like Leliana, so I think I'm going for the Drow.

Funny thing is that Gaider wrote Aerie too. So maybe there is hope for a happy ending with Morrigan after all? Probably pushing my luck there...

Swoo wrote...
Having more options that don't always lead to rainbows and sunshine would be nice (and that doesn't mean they have to beat you over the head with an unrelenting storm of death, misery, and lesser of two evils
choices either).

I think one of the better ambiguous choices in the game is the Behlen/Harrowmont choice. Each has their respective pros and cons, yet neither can be defined as the "good" choice necessarily. More choices like taht would be a good thing.

Swoo wrote...
I also don't believe the Teventir's are devout Andrastian's by any means and will go back to the worship of the Old Ways the first chance they think they can take without getting wiped out.

I don't know about that. My impression is that most of the Tevinter folks pretty much said "screw you Old Gods" once the darkspawn appeared and the other Old Gods did nothing to help out.  The Tevinter chantry is definitely different than the one based in Orlais (the proper names escape me atm) but I'm not so sure all of them would be so willing to ditch the chantry. If the Old God Kid started walking the streets of Minrathrous performing miracles all Jesus like, maybe that would raise some eyebrows however.

Modifié par Brockololly, 29 juin 2010 - 03:38 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

The Architect is a no go for me he created the Mother who created the Children on accident or not he is still responsible he was the Father in a sense. His goal is noble give darkspawn humanity, but it will never work out it will always be us or them mentality with the darkspawn. Two more Blights are inevitable, but I would not risk him creating a freakshow Archdemon if his experiment failed.



I think Morrigan would find him intriguing, and would see the side of killing the Mother would be easier with his help, so I could see her either preferring to spare him or being neutral, but it also depends on the OGB and how the Architect views that if he is aware, or if Morrigan thinks he would harm the OGB.



This Blight was weak, but I think that is more of game mechanics than the Blight just being weak it would be quite hard for Bioware to span an RPG over a decade since the last three blights have lasted 10-25 years-ish, or imagine spanning a marathon 96 years like the first Blight lol.



As for the Grey Warden's view on the DR I think it fits well with their anything to win mentality, but they are obviously concerned about who you let run off with such power, and are probably questioning the risk/reward aspect of it, so I would understand them being a little pissed or like wtf, but if they hunted Morrigan I would protect her until she gave me cause not to.



The relationship of OGB and it's father is intriguing there are so many variables on how it will be for one what if the child is an evil sinner like the Chantry claims? I doubt it will show much love for anyone even Morrigan, or it could be a normal child with incredible power who would be easily influenced by it's mother's views, so then it would probably rely on how Morrigan viewed the father. It could have no feelings at all for the father and just viewed it as you allowed me to exist to save your own life mutual respect relationship thing. Who knows its a very good question.

[Brockololly]

Fntsybks wrote...

I believe Alistair, if you made him king, talks about questions coming in from the other Wardens about how/why nobody died, and he seemed to imply that he knew about the DR. However, that was a few months ago for me, so I can't remember the exact quote.

Yeah, I recall looking those conversations up in the toolset a while back. They basically boil down in part whether or not you told Loghain or Alistair about the Ritual and then inboth cases they basically agree to keep quiet about it as the Orlesian Wardens are already asking how you survived.

Fntsybks wrote...
As to the Blight not feeling like a true Blight, I agree that Bioware should have taken us somewhere tainted/corrupted. Say, one sidequest after the Landsmeet, as it was stated that parts of the Bannorn/Ferelden had already fallen to the darkspawn. One Fallout-style landscape would have had a huge impact on what I thought of the Blight.

Agreed- we never really see the true horror of the Blight in action. Sure we see Denerim burning, but it would have been even more emotional to see a place like Lothering maybe. See the place after the horde has moved on, just totally decimated with the darkspawn creep all over. Origins was just lacking a lot of that sort of environmental atmosphere I think. You rarely got to a location, looked at it and just went "whoa," in awe. Hopefully they fix that with DA2...

Modifié par Brockololly, 29 juin 2010 - 03:53 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Swoo wrote...
I did Jaheria's questline all the way through Throne of Bhaal, and I find Aerie to be just way too Disney sweet like Leliana, so I think I'm going for the Drow.

Funny thing is that Gaider wrote Aerie too. So maybe there is hope for a happy ending with Morrigan after all? Probably pushing my luck there...

Didn't know he wrote Aearie.

And yes, there could be hope for a happy ending with Morrigan even if the Warden isn't the main protagonist in DA2. They could always use the cheap way out and, say, write it in the epilogue that once her goal was accomplished the witch went to be reunited with her former lover and the 2 of them disappeared shortly after.

Not exactly a great way to handle it, but pretty easy to make.

Brockololly wrote...

Swoo wrote...
I also don't believe the Teventir's are devout Andrastian's by any means and will go back to the worship of the Old Ways the first chance they think they can take without getting wiped out.

I don't know about that. My impression is that most of the Tevinter folks pretty much said "screw you Old Gods" once the darkspawn appeared and the other Old Gods did nothing to help out.  The Tevinter chantry is definitely different than the one based in Orlais (the proper names escape me atm) but I'm not so sure all of them would be so willing to ditch the chantry. If the Old God Kid started walking the streets of Minrathrous performing miracles all Jesus like, maybe that would raise some eyebrows however.

They disagree with many of the fundamental beliefs of the Andrastian Chantry:

1) To them Andraste was a mortal with considerable magical talent and not a divine prophet.

2) They advocate free use of magic but agree that blood magic needs to be banned or at least controlled (even though magisters usually ignore this and dabble in blood magic anyway).

So, in a way, Tevinter Chantry is pretty much similar to the Cult of the Old Gods, but with the addition of a few things from the Andrastean Chantry (and minus blood magic and sacrifices, at least in public).

The interesting thing here is what exactly made such powerful mages like Tevinter Magisters (reputed to be the most powerfull users of magic ever alive) to turn to the worship of what is basically ancient dragons?

Did the Old Gods grant them much of their magical knowledge and power in return for the magisters trying to release them?

Or was it simply a more primitive time when dragons were thought to be divine beings beyond mortal understanding?

Modifié par Master Shiori, 29 juin 2010 - 07:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...
They disagree with many of the fundamental beliefs of the Andrastian Chantry:

1) To them Andraste was a mortal with considerable magical talent and not a divine prophet.

That's not entirely true. I thought the Imperial Chantry (Tevinter) believed that Andraste was a prophet sent by the Maker but that she was a mortal and not to be considered equal to the Maker. In other words, they do not consider her to be the bride of the Maker.
 
The Orlesian Chantry essentially places Andraste on equal footing wih the Maker, when they consider her his bride.

[Master Shiori]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
They disagree with many of the fundamental beliefs of the Andrastian Chantry:

1) To them Andraste was a mortal with considerable magical talent and not a divine prophet.

That's not entirely true. I thought the Imperial Chantry (Tevinter) believed that Andraste was a prophet sent by the Maker but that she was a mortal and not to be considered equal to the Maker. In other words, they do not consider her to be the bride of the Maker.
 
The Orlesian Chantry essentially places Andraste on equal footing wih the Maker, when they consider her his bride.

On Wikia is says they believe her to be a powerful mage and not a Maker's chosen.

That doesn't mean they dispute that she was a prophet, just that there was nothing "divine" about her. So she wouldn't be Maker's divine bride or the holiest thing after him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

A prophet is by definition chosen, especially when they believed the Maker didn't care about mortals before her. But yes, that's what I meant. They do not consider her to have anything divine about her.

[Master Shiori]

It's not like they could prove she did anyway.



For all we know the Maker could just as easily be a fairy tale to explain the creation of the world.



I think that's the best thing about religion in DA. You cannot really prove the existence of a god anymore than you could do it in real world. It all comes down to faith.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am curious to know about the relation, if any, between our God kid and the black city as well. So may things that need revealing. I do believe the answers to many questions lie in the Fade. Although Justice saying that spirits are just as ignorant as we are is not really encouraging.

[Master Shiori]

I dont think we'll ever learn the truth of the Maker, darkspawn or Black City.



We might get information that will provide us with more insight into these things but are unlikely to discover the ultimate truth of such things.



As for the OGB that is probably the biggest enigma of them all. Morrigan's ultimate plan is also something I'm eager to lear more about. It makes me wonder what her ultimate destiny is?

[Lord Gremlin]

Master Shiori wrote...

I dont think we'll ever learn the truth of the Maker, darkspawn or Black City.

To be honest, I got a feeling that in DA universe darkspawn were the original life form with females, transforming into broodmothers after mating.
So all the elves, dwarfs and others were created from darkspawn. Some crazy experiment maybe. Perhaps you should play Brutal Legend, to see what I mean.

[Master Shiori]

There appear to be several version of how darkspawn came to be:



1) Chantry says they were Tevinter Magisters who inveded the GOlden CIty and got tainted as the result.



2) Tevinter Imperium claims it's magisters were mapping out portions of the Fade when something bad happened which made them give up on exploring the Fade.



3) Scholars claim darkspawn might have come about from mages overusing lyrium and being tranformed as the result.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

I think that's the best thing about religion in DA. You cannot really prove the existence of a god anymore than you could do it in real world. It all comes down to faith.

Thats one of the things I like about DA- its not like D&D where the gods go strolling around and make their presence known.  This post by Gaider is pretty interesting with respect to religion in DA. This quote in particular sticks out:

David Gaider wrote...
All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith --though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring.

Personally, I could see Morrigan's Old God kid fitting that role. Maybe once they're grown up a bit they start claiming they're Urthemiel and such going around like Andraste. Could be interesting to say the least...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious to know about the relation, if any, between our God kid and the black city as well. So maythings that need revealing. I do believe the answers to many questions lie in the Fade. Although Justice saying that spirits are just as ignorant as we are is not really encouraging.

I think Avernus also mentions that the answers lie in the Black City. I wonder how much of that sort of thing we'll be allowed to explore in future DA games and how much they want to keep under wraps. They clearly don't want to give away all of the mystery to the Fade but some answers or at least perceived answers would be nice.

Master Shiori wrote...

I dont think we'll ever learn the truth of the Maker, darkspawn or Black City.

We might get information that will provide us with more insight into these things but are unlikely to discover the ultimate truth of such things.

As for the OGB that is probably the biggest enigma of them all. Morrigan's ultimate plan is also something I'm eager to lear more about. It makes me wonder what her ultimate destiny is?

I doubt they'd ever have our PC have a conference with the Maker or anything. They can still shed some light on it though without necessarily giving concrete answers. Just look at Andraste's Ashes- maybe they're the real deal or maybe they're just lyrium infused magical ashes- its sort of left up to interpretation.

And I definitely agree on Morrigan's plan and her destiny. Her whole speech at the end in Denerim talking about fate and destiny and all that almost made it seem as if she knew what her own fate would be. Maybe Flemeth told her already with her seeming power of precognition?

Modifié par Brockololly, 29 juin 2010 - 02:52 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

And I definitely agree on Morrigan's plan and her destiny. Her whole speech at the end in Denerim talking about fate and destiny and all that almost made it seem as if she knew what her own fate would be. Maybe Flemeth told her already with her seeming power of precognition?

Honestly this is both the thing I'm most curious about and what I dread the most.

The only thing that really gives me hope that Morrigan will be ok in the end is the fact that she places such high value on survival and thus is highly unlikely to do something that would result in her death.
I know she's a tragic character in Origins and all, but so far nothing has given me cuase to think her ultimate fate needs to be a tragedy as well.

It's kind of funny, but I actually care about Morrigan so much that her fate is more important to me than that of my own character.
Whatever her destiny is I can only hope we get to witness it and influence the outcome with our own actions in some way. Nothing would be worse than to never find out how her story ends or to be unable to witness it first hand. That's the only scenario that would truly kill my interest in Dragon Age.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 29 juin 2010 - 03:01 .

[Corker]

Hello, MorriThread!

A few of us over on ZevThread were being silly and it somehow came to be that there was a need for a DAO 80s-style power ballad.  The result is Come and Dance with Me (Under the Moon) which may be relevant to your interests. 

[Master Shiori]

Corker wrote...

Hello, MorriThread!

A few of us over on ZevThread were being silly and it somehow came to be that there was a need for a DAO 80s-style power ballad.  The result is Come and Dance with Me (Under the Moon) which may be relevant to your interests. 

That's great!

And as Zevran would say "it fits as well".

Thank you for the link Corker.

[MKDAWUSS]

Master Shiori wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

And I definitely agree on Morrigan's plan and her destiny. Her whole speech at the end in Denerim talking about fate and destiny and all that almost made it seem as if she knew what her own fate would be. Maybe Flemeth told her already with her seeming power of precognition?

Honestly this is both the thing I'm most curious about and what I dread the most.

The only thing that really gives me hope that Morrigan will be ok in the end is the fact that she places such high value on survival and thus is highly unlikely to do something that would result in her death.
I know she's a tragic character in Origins and all, but so far nothing has given me cuase to think her ultimate fate needs to be a tragedy as well.

I agree - she has a strong sense of self preservation. Heck, she asked the Warden to KO her mommy. I'll have to say, in that final confrontation with Flemeth, I think she was living in the Warden's mind, rent free. At that point I didn't know if the whole body snatching thing was something she seriously did, or if the whole persona of Flemeth was one she just jumped on for to take advantage of the legend behind it.
One can only hope that the Morrigan-OGB relationship is better than the Morrigan-Flemeth one.

It's kind of funny, but I actually care about Morrigan so much that her fate is more important to me than that of my own character.
Whatever her destiny is I can only hope we get to witness it and influence the outcome with our own actions in some way. Nothing would be worse than to never find out how her story ends or to be unable to witness it first hand. That's the only scenario that would truly kill my interest in Dragon Age.

I feel you on that one. I remember GW ruins where Morrigan's introduction occurs, and I'm (player) thinking that here goes the first boss fight (it was certainly a spot for one). I (character and player) try to be friendly, while all the while trying to stay ready for anything, especially a fight. The two of them have obviously come a long way since then...

And as many times as my Warden reiterated that he would find her, it's a storyline I do want to see have an extended resolution (even though it might raise conflictions with other people's playthroughs [heck, some probably never want to see her again]). There's just so much there, especially in the romance aspect, which isn't there in the other romance SLs (not bashing/degrading the other romance options BTW).

[Master Shiori]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

One can only hope that the Morrigan-OGB relationship is better than the Morrigan-Flemeth one.

I have a feeling that Morri might turn out to be a much better mother than Flemeth was.

While its true that she respects the fact that Flemeth's teaching made her who she is and gave her the power she has, she also looks back with regret at all the dreams and hopes she had as a little girl.
At one point, when she asks you about your own mother, if you reply with "I love her. What else do you want to know?", she'll actually give you a sad expression and admit that she feels envious towards the fact that you had a better relationship with your mother than she had with Flemeth.
Also, let's not forget that Flemeth treatment of her is what caused Morrigan to ask for the Warden's help in killing the Flemeth. With that in mind I believe Morrigan will threat her child better, if only to foster loyalty and avoid having it turn against her in the future.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 29 juin 2010 - 05:31 .