16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...
I'd gladly trade a ring cutscene or a letter for seeing Morrigan again in DA2 though.

True enough- I think we can be sure with some level of certainty that we'll see Morrigan again in a significant way in future games. The other LIs? Thats really just as much in the air as anything else.

I just worry we don't get anything acknowledging the romance in Awakening but then on top of that we go and see Morrigan again either as a new PC or the Warden, but conveniently they don't acknowledge the romance there either for whatever reason.

[Master Shiori]

If they play the OGB card and reunite Morri and the Warden, they'll have to acknowledge the romance because since your character is the father of her child.



Mind you though, unless she's a companion and a LI, it's unlikely we'll get a lot of dialogue concerning our raltionship with her in Origins. She'll most likely acknowledge us as her former lover, but after so many years of being apart I find it unlikely she'll greet us with hugs and kisses.



Most likely we'll have to start building our relationship from scratch to prove that we're still the same person who cared for her and to make her realize she still has feelings for us (which knowing Morrigan will take some time to happen).



Not to mention she now has the OGB and doesn't know how we feel about it. Are we there to help her or stop her plans?

I expect such a reunion will contain a good deal of distrust, buried feelings resurfacing and anger.

Hmm, I think I just listed the major ingredients for a good make up sex...

[IndigoWolfe]

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what passes as the Morrigan Support Thread, right?

[Master Shiori]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what passes as the Morrigan Support Thread, right?

That would be a "yes".

[ximena]

Master Shiori wrote...

If they play the OGB card and reunite Morri and the Warden, they'll have to acknowledge the romance because since your character is the father of her child.

Mind you though, unless she's a companion and a LI, it's unlikely we'll get a lot of dialogue concerning our raltionship with her in Origins. She'll most likely acknowledge us as her former lover, but after so many years of being apart I find it unlikely she'll greet us with hugs and kisses.

Most likely we'll have to start building our relationship from scratch to prove that we're still the same person who cared for her and to make her realize she still has feelings for us (which knowing Morrigan will take some time to happen).

Not to mention she now has the OGB and doesn't know how we feel about it. Are we there to help her or stop her plans?
I expect such a reunion will contain a good deal of distrust, buried feelings resurfacing and anger.
Hmm, I think I just listed the major ingredients for a good make up sex...

I'm still rather hopeful after being told "I will always remember you, my love." (or was it "I will never forget you....."? XD)

Though as stated before, Bioware pretty much doesn't care if some of the continuity is screwed.

And yessss. Major ingredients for good make up smex indeed.

Modifié par ximena, 01 juillet 2010 - 12:03 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Master Shiori wrote...

If they play the OGB card and reunite Morri and the Warden, they'll have to acknowledge the romance because since your character is the father of her child.

Mind you though, unless she's a companion and a LI, it's unlikely we'll get a lot of dialogue concerning our raltionship with her in Origins. She'll most likely acknowledge us as her former lover, but after so many years of being apart I find it unlikely she'll greet us with hugs and kisses.

Most likely we'll have to start building our relationship from scratch to prove that we're still the same person who cared for her and to make her realize she still has feelings for us (which knowing Morrigan will take some time to happen).

Not to mention she now has the OGB and doesn't know how we feel about it. Are we there to help her or stop her plans?
I expect such a reunion will contain a good deal of distrust, buried feelings resurfacing and anger.
Hmm, I think I just listed the major ingredients for a good make up sex...

IDK, if the OGB has SOME of the Warden's physical features, that's something Morrigan might be reminded of each time she looks at the OGB.

Also, the whole relationship itself is quite the motivator. I think the Warden has several chances to reiterate that He. Will. Find. Her. To then find her and not say anything about the relationship would be anti-climactic at best. Build-up, build-up, build-up, build-up, build-up.... letdown.

I think the romance should be a factor, especially if she puts up civil resistance (where all she wants you to do is GTFO). If you romanced her, it should be easier to break any resistance she may put up, especially when those feelings she remembers won't go away. Without a romance, you have some serious convincing to do (think KOTOR near the end).


Those who did the DR + romance should have some extras in their reunion than those who didn't. And BTW, how would things play out if Alistair/Loghain happened to be the father? The PC GW would have no ties to the OGB whatsoever. Just throwing that in there.

Will she be a party member again? I doubt it. Will there be some relationship-related dialog/storyline? I would hope so, but I think the odds of that are 50-50.

[GardenSnake]

Brockololly wrote...

Thats the big catch in my view with regards to the Gauntlet and Urn of Sacred Ashes- In real life, if someone went through the Gauntlet you'd be damn convinced that all of that was some serious Maker stuff going on. Yet in the world of Dragon Age, you've got crazy magic that can do really crazy, otherworldly stuff too. It could be that the Guardian was some sort of Wynne/Flemeth like abomination that was tied to some Fade spirit or maybe the lyrium veins were messing with you. I think another thing to keep in mind that the entire notion of the Maker seems to go beyond the Fade- I think it might be in Awakening with Justice, but its mentioned that the Fade isn't like th afterlife necessarily; where souls go when they die is even beyond the understanding of the Fade demons and spirits.

Its nice that its not explained in absolutes either way, frankly. I like to think it was mostly "divine" as that just seems a bit more intriguing than saying it was just all chalked up to some mineral in the ground. But even then that still leaves the question of who/what the Maker is, like Swoo mentioned.

And I love the Gauntlet because its totally like Indiana Jones..oh yeah.

God dammit that's exactly what I was thinking. The Indy part I mean. I half expected one of the convo options to be "It BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!!!" when you emerged from the temple and had to talk with Kolgrim. XD Wow Brock, me and you have a lot in common, Star Wars, 24, Indy, DA, Morrigan. You don't happen to like ice cream too do you? LOL.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

If they play the OGB card and reunite Morri and the Warden, they'll have to acknowledge the romance because since your character is the father of her child.

I'll put my Mr. Negativity hat on here for a sec...

You could have done the DR but hated Morrigan or only have been friends and still have done it. Love obviously isn't a pre-requisite to making the OGB. It comes down to whether BioWare will be willing to put in the extra effort for the unique Morrigan romance dialogue again? I tried firing up Awakening again recently so seeing the continuity mangled in that is whats got me all skeptical...<_<

Master Shiori wrote...
Most likely we'll have to start building our relationship from scratch to prove that we're still the same person who cared for her and to make her realize she still has feelings for us (which knowing Morrigan will take some time to happen).

I guess one big factor is how much time has passed between her departure in Origins and whenever (if?) we have our Warden reunite with her. And you'd think if the Warden has the ring, Morrigan might have a feeling if we're coming to hunt her down to murder her versus glomping her. If anything though, the passage of time seems to be just a built in excuse for having a very generic reunion scene, should we get one.

But like I said, I think because I tried starting up Awakening again, having Oghren's approval start at zero got me in a foul mood. I understand there that its a gameplay mechanic, but my Cousland and Oghren were BFFs in Origins and then he starts at neutral in Awakening? Same deal with Wynne- "Hey, how are you Wynne!" " Oh go grab some herbs 4 me dude. Kthxbai" 

They at least should have given you some bonus starting approval based on their status in Origins. Kind of like how you get renegade/paragon bonuses when you import in ME2. Yet from what I remember the actual approval scores aren't capable of being carried through from Origins. I don't know if I should extrapolate too much from how the Origins to Awakening continuity/transition was handled, but it certainly does not give me warm fuzzies and confidence in us seeing reasonable continuity going forward. C'est la vie....*sigh*

I just sadly would not be surprised if we get our Wardens to reunite with Morrigan and it just ends up being horribly one size fits all, generic stuff, just like the Dark Ritual scene all over again. Morrigan spewing the same lines to her lover Warden upon reuniting as she would to a friendly Warden or a hostile Warden. And like I said, using the "passage of time" as a built in excuse for her generic behavior would be weak but something I could see happening.

GardenSnake wrote...
God dammit that's exactly what I was thinking. The Indy part I mean. I half expected one of the convo options
to be "It BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!!!" when you emerged from the temple and had to talk with Kolgrim. XD Wow Brock, me and you have a lot in common,Star Wars, 24, Indy, DA, Morrigan. You don't happen to like ice cream
too do you? LOL.

Bwaaaahaha... Who doesn't like ice cream!? I was half expecting a puzzle in the Gauntlet where we'd have to spell out the name of the Maker or something on floor tiles... hehe

I hope we have more archeological type stuff in DA2- finding Andraste's Ashes was probably one of my favorite and most memorable moments in the game. You hear so much about Andraste up to that point and then to actually find her ashes- very cool.

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 juillet 2010 - 03:29 .

[adneate]

Brock the question as to whether or not Orgins approval can be carried over or not, well I'll tell you right now it can be carried over. The data exists in the savegame files along with all the associated plot flags, in fact the Oghren "approval bug" is a result of BioWare not finding a way to erase the approval flags when they did the "Import" for Awakening. Mass Effect 2's import process requires an external utility that searches the ME1 savegame files to certain plot flags, once it finds them it creates a brand new character save with the import information added to it modifying events in the world as said plot flags dictate. With Awakening however the "Import" process is much more crude since it just makes a hard copy of the character folder and continues on. For example if you make two Elissa Couslands in Origins their respective character folders will be named Elissa and Elissa1 since they can't both be named the same thing for obvious reasons. Awakening "Imports" use the identical naming system since they are in fact copies of Origins saves, so Aedan Cousland in Origins exists in a folder called Aedan and in Awakening his folder is now called Aedan1. This apparently created unexpected problems since BioWare had to find a way to delete the approval information so they could get Oghren to start at 0 approval for the expansion, but even then the information apparently didn't get totally deleted since Oghren still remembers all the gifts you gave him in Origins even though now your in Awakening and the relationship is starting over from square one. So it's not a matter of practical possibility it's a matter of intention on BioWare's part if they want to use the information it's there and they've shown with ME2 they can cherry pick savegame files for information, once again the big question remains are they going to bring the warden back?

[MKDAWUSS]

adneate wrote...

Brock the question as to whether or not Orgins approval can be carried over or not, well I'll tell you right now it can be carried over. The data exists in the savegame files along with all the associated plot flags, in fact the Oghren "approval bug" is a result of BioWare not finding a way to erase the approval flags when they did the "Import" for Awakening. Mass Effect 2's import process requires an external utility that searches the ME1 savegame files to certain plot flags, once it finds them it creates a brand new character save with the import information added to it modifying events in the world as said plot flags dictate. With Awakening however the "Import" process is much more crude since it just makes a hard copy of the character folder and continues on. For example if you make two Elissa Couslands in Origins their respective character folders will be named Elissa and Elissa1 since they can't both be named the same thing for obvious reasons. Awakening "Imports" use the identical naming system since they are in fact copies of Origins saves, so Aedan Cousland in Origins exists in a folder called Aedan and in Awakening his folder is now called Aedan1. This apparently created unexpected problems since BioWare had to find a way to delete the approval information so they could get Oghren to start at 0 approval for the expansion, but even then the information apparently didn't get totally deleted since Oghren still remembers all the gifts you gave him in Origins even though now your in Awakening and the relationship is starting over from square one. So it's not a matter of practical possibility it's a matter of intention on BioWare's part if they want to use the information it's there and they've shown with ME2 they can cherry pick savegame files for information, once again the big question remains are they going to bring the warden back?

Storywise, I don't see why they shouldn't bring him (or her) back - there're still some storylines left in the Origins Warden.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...
 So it's not a matter of practical possibility it's a matter of intention on BioWare's part if they want to use the information it's there and they've shown with ME2 they can cherry pick savegame files for information, once again the big question remains are they going to bring the warden back?

Thanks for the knowledge! I figured the data is in the saves, its just a matter of how much BioWare wants to utilize it. I just seem to remember Gaider saying the actual approval data was tied to Origins... Here is the thread I was thinking about  with respect to Oghren's approval in Awakening and here was one of Gaider's responses: 

David Gaider wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
I don't
know about the approval but yes, the personal quest does carry over, or
the game assumes you did it, whether you did it or not. In Awakening he
has a child and is with (married?) to Felsi.

As I understand
it, plot flags ("did somone do X quest?") can be carried over but
approval (which is a variable stored on the PC character local to
origins) can not. It's been a while since Oghren saw you, at least, but
if you did his personal quest (and how you did it) is at least an
indication of how you two got along.

But I guess on an even greater level, I wonder if we can take anything from Oghren's appearance in Awakening as a sign of how they may deal with continuity going forward. Basically with Oghren, regardless of whether you helped him with Felsi in Origins, he ended up with her. They canonized it. Can we expect more of the same with Morrigan? Will they just simply canonize certain events?

I really wish we'd just get those bare minimum sorts of questions answered with respect to DA2.... I'll say it again, but my continued interest in DA2 really hinges on several  things:
1.) Does the Warden return as the PC
2.) Do our choices from Origins carry over? If so, to what extent?
3.) Will the LI's / Morrigan return as companions again?

MKDAWUSS wrote..

Storywise,
I don't see why they shouldn't bring him (or her) back - there're still some storylines left in the Origins Warden.

Oh, I totally agree- there is plenty of fuel left in the Warden's story. Lots, in fact. But when you read up on the developer posts from Gaider about managing expectations and what not, it leads to some pessimism. And for better or worse, with NWN to SoU they ditched the PC from NWN1. So there is a precedent. But its mostly alot of the developer quotes you'll find with them talking about DA not needing to be a trilogy like ME or how its a broad story where they can go anywhere.

Time will tell.... hopefully sooner rather than later...

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 juillet 2010 - 05:41 .

[Master Shiori]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

If they play the OGB card and reunite Morri and the Warden, they'll have to acknowledge the romance because since your character is the father of her child. [/quote]

I'll put my Mr. Negativity hat on here for a sec...

You could have done the DR but hated Morrigan or only have been friends and still have done it. Love obviously isn't a pre-requisite to making the OGB. It comes down to whether BioWare will be willing to put in the extra effort for the unique Morrigan romance dialogue again? I tried firing up Awakening again recently so seeing the continuity mangled in that is whats got me all skeptical...<_<
[/quote]

Well, that was my point. The reunion needs to be handled in a way that makes sense for every single imported Warden, regerdless of his/her past relationship with Morrigan. The simplest way is to start the relationship from scratch, while ackowledging the previous history between the characters. After all, Morrigan did tell you she doesn't expect to see you again. Having the Warden suddenly appear after so many years have passed would make her suspiscious. Is he here because he couldn't let her go and wants to continue their relationship? Is he here because he hates her but wants to make sure the child is alright? Does he consider the DR to have been a mistake and is here to correct that?

With all that in mind the safest route for Bioware would be to handle this like it was done with former LI's in ME2. A lot of time has passed and they're no longer sure where they stand with you. So it's up to both of you to try and rebuild the relationship and prove to each other you're still the same people who fell in love in the last game.
Also, let's not forget that regardless of whether there's going to be an import option, you'll have th choice of creating a new character who has noprior history with Morri. Any initial dialogue with her needs to work from the perspective of such a character as well.

With all this in mind the easiest and safest route for the devs is to let us get to know Morrigan all over again and decide what kind of relationship we want to have (love, friendship, distrust, hate). They can add a few extra lines for those who imported their Warden (like they did in Awakening): "We used to care for each other and I still do", "It's our child", etc.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Most likely we'll have to start building our relationship from scratch to prove that we're still the same person who cared for her and to make her realize she still has feelings for us (which knowing Morrigan will take some time to happen).
[/quote]

I guess one big factor is how much time has passed between her departure in Origins and whenever (if?) we have our Warden reunite with her. And you'd think if the Warden has the ring, Morrigan might have a feeling if we're coming to hunt her down to murder her versus glomping her. If anything though, the passage of time seems to be just a built in excuse for having a very generic reunion scene, should we get one.

But like I said, I think because I tried starting up Awakening again, having Oghren's approval start at zero got me in a foul mood. I understand there that its a gameplay mechanic, but my Cousland and Oghren were BFFs in Origins and then he starts at neutral in Awakening? Same deal with Wynne- "Hey, how are you Wynne!" " Oh go grab some herbs 4 me dude. Kthxbai" 

They at least should have given you some bonus starting approval based on their status in Origins. Kind of like how you get renegade/paragon bonuses when you import in ME2. Yet from what I remember the actual approval scores aren't capable of being carried through from Origins. I don't know if I should extrapolate too much from how the Origins to Awakening continuity/transition was handled, but it certainly does not give me warm fuzzies and confidence in us seeing reasonable continuity going forward. C'est la vie....*sigh*

I just sadly would not be surprised if we get our Wardens to reunite with Morrigan and it just ends up being horribly one size fits all, generic stuff, just like the Dark Ritual scene all over again. Morrigan spewing the same lines to her lover Warden upon reuniting as she would to a friendly Warden or a hostile Warden. And like I said, using the "passage of time" as a built in excuse for her generic behavior would be weak but something I could see happening.
[/quote]

They could handle that in any number of ways: unique dialogue lines for imported Warden based on old approval, small approval bonus ala ME2, etc.

As for "passage of time" line, see my reply above. It "is" the most likely going to leave us with a generic greeting from Morri. That, however, isn't aproblem (in fact it would be the most logical response to someone you never expected to see, may not even want to see at this point and whose motivanion is unknown to you right now) as long as we're allowed to gradualy rebuild our relationship with her to our liking.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 01 juillet 2010 - 11:34 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote..

Storywise,
I don't see why they shouldn't bring him (or her) back - there're still some storylines left in the Origins Warden.

Oh, I totally agree- there is plenty of fuel left in the Warden's story. Lots, in fact. But when you read up on the developer posts from Gaider about managing expectations and what not, it leads to some pessimism. And for better or worse, with NWN to SoU they ditched the PC from NWN1. So there is a precedent. But its mostly alot of the developer quotes you'll find with them talking about DA not needing to be a trilogy like ME or how its a broad story where they can go anywhere.

Time will tell.... hopefully sooner rather than later...

Honestly Brock, I read some of the Gaider post about DA:O and it's characters from before the game was released and they were just revealing them.

There was one instance when things became crystal clear to me in regards to Gaider's expectation management:

When Leliana was first revealed as a companion, a lot of people immediately started to speculate about her being a LI just like Morrigan or Alistair.

Gaider response was to say they never claimed she would be a love interest and, furthermore, there is no reason or rule that said they were obliged to make her one. People should accept her as she was presented at that point and not expect more from it.

Well, do I need to say who was right in the end?

David's job is to quash any and all rumors about things that may happen. This, imo, is more to keep people guessing and build up excitement. After all, even if your fans manage to correctly guess a few things you're not going to say "Bravo! That's exactly as it will be". Better to simply reply "Maybe, maybe not" and keep the air of mystery about it.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out Morrigan's tale could easily be continued in a future DA title. It also doesn't  take much to realize what people loved the most about DA:O were the Warden and his/her companions. There are dozens of fan groups for them on facebook or Twitter, fan art on DeviantART, tons of fanfiction on Fanfiction net and huge topics discussing them on these very forums.

It's clear that people love these characters and not only want to see more of them, but also continue their adventures in the sequal.
When talking about DA2 people say "We hope to see character x agan", "We hope to see what became of Morrigan and the OGB", "we hope to play as our Warden again".

I believe that should send a clear message of what the players want. It's up to Bioware to decide if they want to give it to us or not.

[MKDAWUSS]

Master Shiori wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

If they play the OGB card and reunite Morri and the Warden, they'll have to acknowledge the romance because since your character is the father of her child.

I'll put my Mr. Negativity hat on here for a sec...

You could have done the DR but hated Morrigan or only have been friends and still have done it. Love obviously isn't a pre-requisite to making the OGB. It comes down to whether BioWare will be willing to put in the extra effort for the unique Morrigan romance dialogue again? I tried firing up Awakening again recently so seeing the continuity mangled in that is whats got me all skeptical...<_<

Well, that was my point. The reunion needs to be handled in a way that makes sense for every single imported Warden, regerdless of his/her past relationship with Morrigan. The simplest way is to start the relationship from scratch, while ackowledging the previous history between the characters. After all, Morrigan did tell you she doesn't expect to see you again. Having the Warden suddenly appear after so many years have passed would make her suspiscious. Is he here because he couldn't let her go and wants to continue their relationship? Is he here because he hates her but wants to make sure the child is alright? Does he consider the DR to have been a mistake and is here to correct that?

With all that in mind the safest route for Bioware would be to handle this like it was done with former LI's in ME2. A lot of time has passed and they're no longer sure where they stand with you. So it's up to both of you to try and rebuild the relationship and prove to each other you're still the same people who fell in love in the last game.
Also, let's not forget that regardless of whether there's going to be an import option, you'll have th choice of creating a new character who has noprior history with Morri. Any initial dialogue with her needs to work from the perspective of such a character as well.

With all this in mind the easiest and safest route for the devs is to let us get to know Morrigan all over again and decide what kind of relationship we want to have (love, friendship, distrust, hate). They can add a few extra lines for those who imported their Warden (like they did in Awakening): "We used to care for each other and I still do", "It's our child", etc.

Like I said, there should be at least extras for the Morrigan romancers (heck, according to the Epilogue sliders, Leliana or Anora romancers had no relationship change, but then again, neither romance included the OGB and a "never see me again" ending), if not a few advantages in persuasion.

But like I said, I think because I tried starting up Awakening again, having Oghren's approval start at zero got me in a foul mood. I understand there that its a gameplay mechanic, but my Cousland and Oghren were BFFs in Origins and then he starts at neutral in Awakening? Same deal with Wynne- "Hey, how are you Wynne!" " Oh go grab some herbs 4 me dude. Kthxbai" 

Yeah, that was mishandled TBQH. Opening dialogs should have been based on endgame relatiionship status (similar to how character epilogues were done in Origins).

I just sadly would not be surprised if we get our Wardens to reunite with Morrigan and it just ends up being horribly one size fits all, generic stuff, just like the Dark Ritual scene all over again. Morrigan spewing the same lines to her lover Warden upon reuniting as she would to a friendly Warden or a hostile Warden. And like I said, using the "passage of time" as a built in excuse for her generic behavior would be weak but something I could see happening.

QFE. If that happened I don't know who I'd be irritated at more from an IG sense - Morrigan for acting like the relationship doesn't exist, or my Warden for not bringing it up (if there are no dialog options for it). OOG, I think there'll be enough people ticked off at the writers/coders, so that's covered.

They could handle that in any number of ways: unique dialogue lines for imported Warden based on old approval, small approval bonus ala ME2, etc.

As for "passage of time" line, see my reply above. It "is" the most likely going to leave us with a generic greeting from Morri. That, however, isn't aproblem (in fact it would be the most logical response to someone you never expected to see, may not even want to see at this point and whose motivanion is unknown to you right now) as long as we're allowed to gradualy rebuild our relationship with her to our liking.

While I agree that she's going to be repulsive at that first reunion (romance or not), I think it would be sooo much fun trying to crack those "hard to get" defenses and have some suppressed feelings released

[adneate]

Brockololly wrote...

Thanks for the knowledge! I figured the data is in the saves, its
just a matter of how much BioWare wants to utilize it. I just seem to
remember Gaider saying the actual approval data was tied to Origins...

Not a problem happy to help. In regards to Gaider comment he's lead writer not lead programmer according to his explanation that only flags can be carried over that makes the appearance import in ME2  impossible since that is saved locally in a character file. All player related data is stored in the savegame.das file, plot flags, approval levels, equipment, backpack contents and physical appearance. Obviously the idea of importing only plot flags but not your character's face is absurd and that data is far more complex than the approval information. Obviously the Oghren reset was done out of laziness, they just wanted us to run through the 0 - 100 system again without putting any extra work into it.

You mentioned the Paragon Renegade score import for ME2, that's how I sorta envision approval import working you get a bonus based on how high the previous score was. Similar to level import in ME2 since level 60 characters start at level 5 in ME2 whereas level 40's start at 2. Take Morrigan's Origin approval, we'll say it's 100 (Love) with the plot flags romance active, flemeth dead and DR completed by PC, in our hypothetical game in which Morrigan has not seen the player in a long time we could use said information to start the approval system at let's say 20 with a special flag that makes her random squad dialogue start at Warm instead of neutral. So instead of her saying "Oh tis you again" or "What!?" she'll only say the much more polite "Your Wish?" or "Tell me". That's one simple thing but it makes much more sense for a Warden that's done so much for her in the previous game.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...
Obviously the Oghren reset was done out of laziness, they just wanted us to run through the 0 - 100 system again without putting any extra work into it.

Yeah, I mean they weren't doing any drastic gameplay changes in Awakening maybe outside of the dialogue system, so they just stuck with the same old approval system. My problem with the approval in Awakening was that it just had soooo many bugs and without romances, didn't make sense. You have the instant +100 approval bugs, things like Justic in "love" with my male Cousland (!?) or Oghren, despite being BFFs in Origins having his whole approval bugged so that it was impossible to ever trigger his personal quest. If it worked as it should have it wouldn't have bugged me, but as the approval system was in Awakening, it just seemed like they were trying to shove a square block into a round hole.

adneate wrote...
You mentioned the Paragon Renegade score import for ME2, that's how I sorta envision approval import working you get a bonus based on how high the previous score was. Similar to level import in ME2 since level 60 characters start at level 5 in ME2 whereas level 40's start at 2. Take Morrigan's Origin approval, we'll say it's 100 (Love) with the plot flags romance active, flemeth dead and DR completed by PC, in our hypothetical game in which Morrigan has not seen the player in a long time we could use said information to start the approval system at let's say 20 with a special flag that makes her random squad dialogue start at Warm instead of neutral. So instead of her saying "Oh tis you again" or "What!?" she'll only say the much more polite "Your Wish?" or "Tell me". That's one simple thing but it makes much more sense for a Warden that's done so much for her in the previous game.

Thats exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of. Maybe have a certain boost (or hit) in starting approval based on the sort of tier you were at with the given companion. So maybe depedning on if they were hostile, neutral, warm, friendly or in love and in cojunction with plot flags sort of have one of a couple opening reactions to your character.

But I know Gaider mentioned before they might need to tweak the approval system and I'd agree with that. Honestly one of the other reasons I'd like to see the Warden come back would be to have see some of the gameplay systems tweaked and revised. I'd love to see the approval system tweaked or have some of the specializations made as useful as they should be (shapeshifting!). You figure BioWare has loads of telemetry on what abilities and everything are most commonly used and how people play, so they can tweak on all that data.

Conversely, I hope they don't simplify things too much- I thought Origins had a good level of complexity and a good learning curve progression. Yet for whatever reason Awakening seemed waaaay too easy even on higher difficulties.

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 juillet 2010 - 05:12 .

[Master Shiori]

I think the biggest problem with balance in Awakening came from the lack of testing.



Once you have a full group of companions most of the battles become a joke. try having a mage use grasp of winter (second battlemage spell) in combination with warrior using massacre and watch non elite mobs get one shot.

Archery was also a killer thanks to accuracy, scatter shot and rain of arrows.

Now combine all of these together and even bosses have trouble surviving for more than 2-3 minutes.



Not to mention all the consistent bugs that could have been easily discovered had somebody bothered to play through the game just once.

[adneate]

Master Shiori wrote...

Once you have a full group of companions most of the battles become a joke. try having a mage use grasp of winter (second battlemage spell) in combination with warrior using massacre and watch non elite mobs get one shot.
Archery was also a killer thanks to accuracy, scatter shot and rain of arrows.
Now combine all of these together and even bosses have trouble surviving for more than 2-3 minutes.

Yeah tell me about it, I firmly believe that my Spirit Healer/ Arcane Warrior/ Battlemage build was unkillable in Awakening. By the end of the game I had 200 spellpower and 900 mana with a higher armor rating than Justice in Sentinel plate armour with Shield Wall active. It was impossible to kill me since anytime I started to get beat up I just turned on Draining Aura and healed myself faster than any enemy could damage me, I took down the armored ogre by myself after he beat down all my companions on Nightmare. However accuracy is even worse it breaks the entire combat system making Archers more deadly than mages they can get like 1000 damage per hit with Accuracy and Spirit Warrior and close to 3000 with Arrow of Slaying, not even The Mother can stand up to punishment like that. The problem is the new specializations have no real downsides it's just a bunch of really powerful and awesome abilities to make you a god.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...
The problem is the new specializations have no real downsides it's just a bunch of really powerful and awesome abilities to make you a god.

Exactly- all of the classes and specializations should ideally add a "positive" to your character but there should be some sort of drawback too.  Same thing goes with some of the gear in Awakening- much of it is just insanely overpowered with no downsides to them at all. And don't get me started on how goofy it is to be able to buy supposedly "legendary" weapons and gear from Origins at little street vendors in Amaranthine. /facepalm

I know they wanted to make warriors and rogues more powerful in Awakening, but I think they went overboard. I mean archers are ridiculous and massacre is like an instant win button. I'm just curious what they're thinking the ultimate, absolute level cap is going to be with their combat system. WIll we end up going higher than 35? I think they need to tweak it majorly if thats their plan, or at least ditch the Awakening stuff because its just like ability overload in Awakening.

Same thing with gold too in Awakening. I loved Origins' economy because you could get a decent amount of gold but never so much that you could just buy everything up. Yet in Awakening you end up with tons of gold.

I just really hope BioWare puts in the requisite work and testing  to make DA2 more like Origins and not Awakening...

[Master Shiori]

I think they're aware of the problem with high level abilities and specializations, and are going to tweak them for DA2.

Bioware had several topics about classes and specializations where they asked for our opinion on these matters and will likely use that feedback to implement changes in similar fashion like they did in ME2.

Once DA2 is released don't expect that classes will be the same as in Origins. They'll likely tweak some abilities, replace others and try to balance it all to work properly at higher levels (20+).

Same for specializations. Some might get changed, some removed and new ones added.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 01 juillet 2010 - 06:55 .

[IndigoWolfe]

I've just started following this thread and I have no idea as to the extent to which the following has been discussed, but I think I'll voice my thoughts.

Of all the characters I think is most likely to return in a Dragon Age 2 is Morrigan. However, let me elaborate.

I don't think that a Dragon Age 2 will have the Warden from DA 1 in it at all. I think it's most likely that Dragon Age 2 will take place a couple centuries or more after the first game. Bioware seem to hav stated repeatedly that the Warden's story is over.

But I think Morrigan will be a returning character, if not full party member. And you will be able to import your Warden, in that it will carry through some of the decisions you made. Perhaps even have the character be a decendant of the Warden, but I'm not so sure about that.

And importing a playthrough were the PC romanced Morrigan would change things. For instance, Morrigan having a child and a dialogue tree where she talks about the Warden from the first game. Ooo! Morrigan is not a party member but her fully grown child is! That would be an interesting turnaround!

Now, in whatever dialogue tree you would have with Morrigan in regards to a Warden who romanced her, it would either be referenced that the Warden found her sometime after Awakening. Or he didn't, and she lived her life plagued by sorrow and regret.

Can you guess which one I think more likely?

[adneate]

Well that has been discussed I wouldn't jump right on the bandwagon for a few reasons, first the game is called Dragon Age and takes place in the (gasp!) Dragon Age according to the chantry. I always wonder how so many people think the sequel is gonna be 500 years in the future when it's no longer the Dragon Age anymore and it's now the Wolf Age or somin'. Doesn't really make sense to have the name of franchise no longer correspond with the actual date in the game, but then that's just me using that stupid thing called logic. Also setting it far in the future seems like a bit of a cop out since BioWare gets away with not really having to answer any questions about Morrigan, not bringing any closure to The Warden's story and not having to do any character development or deal with any consequences of player choice and interaction.

Why so many people think this is the best thing for the series is beyond me, wouldn't it be nice to have actual character development instead of endless exposition? To see characters grow as individuals instead of just slowly unloading their life story on you and then stop talking for the rest of the game. What does putting the game years in to the future really add the the experience of the player? I know it's the easiest way to ditch The Warden and not have to bother fulfilling the whole "Your choices matter" thing.

Also be wary of taking anything anyone from Bioware says on these forums as the gospel, they love to come in here and say contradictory and vague things just to throw fans around.

Modifié par adneate, 01 juillet 2010 - 08:12 .

[Master Shiori]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

I've just started following this thread and I have no idea as to the extent to which the following has been discussed, but I think I'll voice my thoughts.

Of all the characters I think is most likely to return in a Dragon Age 2 is Morrigan. However, let me elaborate.

I don't think that a Dragon Age 2 will have the Warden from DA 1 in it at all. I think it's most likely that Dragon Age 2 will take place a couple centuries or more after the first game. Bioware seem to hav stated repeatedly that the Warden's story is over.

But I think Morrigan will be a returning character, if not full party member. And you will be able to import your Warden, in that it will carry through some of the decisions you made. Perhaps even have the character be a decendant of the Warden, but I'm not so sure about that.

And importing a playthrough were the PC romanced Morrigan would change things. For instance, Morrigan having a child and a dialogue tree where she talks about the Warden from the first game. Ooo! Morrigan is not a party member but her fully grown child is! That would be an interesting turnaround!

Now, in whatever dialogue tree you would have with Morrigan in regards to a Warden who romanced her, it would either be referenced that the Warden found her sometime after Awakening. Or he didn't, and she lived her life plagued by sorrow and regret.

Can you guess which one I think more likely?

Well, the problem is that after a couple of centuries not only would everyone from DA:O be long dead (that includes Morrigan) but your choices from Origins wouldn't matter, since things would have changed so much that Ferelden would seem like a different country. Also, it wouldn't be Dragon Age anymore either.

Now, about the "Warden's story is over". I never saw or heard anyone from Bioware say that. In fact the biggest problem right now is that we have no idea in which direction they plan to go in DA2. David Gaider said they could do anything from having us play as the Warden again, make some events from Origins canon or simply make a game that has nothing to do with Origins at all. Also, the way Awakening ended they didn't wrap up the Warden's story but rather had him leave Ferelden and the Grey Wardens there. That means they're pretty much free to use him again should they desire to do so, but his story didn't get closure.

We do know that Fernando Melo (lead developher for Awakening) said that we're bound to see Morrigan again. We also know from the Q&A with developer of Leliana's Song that this DLC will feature some of our future companions from DA2. This means the next game will be set in the same time period as Origins and Awakening and possibly not long after the events in those games.
They'll most likely allow enough time to pass between Origins and DA2 to be able to represent Morrigan's child with a normal child model (like Connor has) or to make him/her a young adult (if he/she is supposed to be a companion).

This is all the information we posses atm. Right now Bioware can do anything. We'll have to wait and see what they have in store for us in the future.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 01 juillet 2010 - 08:25 .

[Master Shiori]

Also, jumping forward a few centuries wouldn't make any sense.

From my experience such a thing is generaly done if the setting is so well documented and thoroughly explored that writers find it difficult to make new stories.

DA:O gave us a rough idea of what Thedas is like and about things like religion, history, cultures, individual countries, etc. However, none of these things have really been explored in much detail.

This means that they can come up with a dozen stories taking place in the same age but different countries and dealing with different things.
In fact, they could easily have DA2 take place in another country, not deal with darkspawn, have new companions and still feature the Warden himself. How much continuity it would share with Origins would be up to developers to decide. They're unlikely, however, to recognize every single choice we made and would most likely focus only on most important ones like DR or Landsmeet. Everything else is tied to Ferelden as a country and could be either ignored or simply referenced to in the codex.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 01 juillet 2010 - 08:24 .

[phaonica]

Master Shiori wrote...
We also know from the Q&A with developer of Leliana's Song that this DLC will feature some of our future companions from DA2.

Wait, what? Where does this info come from?