16183 réponses à ce sujet

[MKDAWUSS]

ximena wrote...

Yes. And it's fun thinking of what could have been. Though what are the other instances? Morri with a non-OGB child? I'm always open for alternate takes request. XD

You could try armor clad Morrigan if you want. Arcane Warrior FTW 

If you wanna' step out of the canon possibilties/limits, you could try putting her in modern clothing. You never know what you could come up with and how it could turn out there. Or if you're really feeling like doing an alternate instance, put Morrigan in the ME universe.


Just a few thoughts if you wanted some.

[MKDAWUSS]

Master Shiori wrote...

Not sure how she'd name it.

I imagine she could name me after the Warden as to honor the child's father or her best friend.

Otherwise, I agree with Ximena. She'd probably give it a name associated with power, but probably not beauty, since she considers beauty to be fleeting and have no meaning.

You would at least hope that she would have given the OGB the Warden's last name. But then again, that would probably only happen under the romance variant to the DR.

[Giggles_Manically]

Hehe I thought I didnt get along with Morrigan, my friend who just finished his first complete run-through really hates her. I tried to calm him down but no luck. I wonder if most people have Morrigan ruined for them after their first run through? I am pretty good at RPing my PC's but I think Morrigan could be ruined by metagaming. How bout the rest of you?



Back to the ME2 mine I go, so far Sentinel is amazing, totally going to dump Kaiden for Garrus after Horizon.

[Master Shiori]

Truth be told I didn't follow DA:O closely until it was released.



What I knew about Morrigan was from the vids and her entry on DA:O website. I expected her to be important, being the "face" of the game and all.



I was quite surprised by what I found out once I started playing. Morrigan was extremely hard for me to read, since i was more used to D&D morality which doesn't fit into DA. It took me a bit to finaly figure out what the deal was. Once I started paying more attention not just to what she was saying but to how she reacted to the world around her I understood what made her "tick".



From that point on I completely fell in love with her as a character. She went from frustrating to becoming my favorite DA npc, probably my favorite Bioware npcs of all time.



So no, she wasn't ruined for me at all. In fact she turned out to be the most pleasant surprise of the entire game.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

Truth be told I didn't follow DA:O closely until it was released.

Same here- I was following it pretty closely before it was supposed to be released in March 09 then once the delay hit I was ticked off and really forgot about it until October or so. But I never tried to spoil it or anything before hand.

Master Shiori wrote...
So no, she wasn't ruined for me at all. In fact she turned out to be the most pleasant surprise of the entire game.

I'd agree- I figured she was the token "evil" chick in the game, but to just peg her as the "evil witch" is really selling her character short. Its a testament to the good job by BioWare that I ended up liking Morrigan as much as I do, as I usually don't care for the more "evil" or "bad" type characters in games (of course Morrigan isn't "evil" per se...)

I think its just tough to accurately market a deep, story and character driven game like Origins since you end up having to kind of paint certain characters to make a quick impression when they're more often a lot more complicated than what that first impression might lead you to believe.


On a completely unrelated note- if anyone is looking for a amazingly fun sandbox game, I order you to play Just Cause 2 right now. Soooooo much fun. Its easily the biggest and prettiest sandbox game I 've ever played. The story and VO are like a bad Steven Segal movie- in the "so bad its good" territory, but it works because the game doesn't take itself too seriously.

[MKDAWUSS]

I wasn't following DAO at all until like well after its release, when I decided to get it on D2D. On my first playthrough, I actually thought she was going to be a boss character, guarding those treaties and we'd have to kill her for 'em. Fortunately, it turned out to be far different than that (and she was a welcome addition as a MHN, as I was hoping for some females to join the cast of companions by then).



To me, she's one of those characters that gets better and better with each playthrough.

[Giggles_Manically]

Morrigan can be interesting but, Admiral Xen is scary. It took me a while to realize that Loghain and Morrigan had popped up in ME2, pretty awsome. Then again a lot of VO's are from both DA and ME.



Honestly unless you romance morrigan I dont see that much of a change overall to her charachter really. She is all happy to get the mirror but still holds her own survival above anything else. That is why I clash with her, since I believe that its my job to save Ferelden even if it means dying to do so. Interesting charachter arc overall but Oghern, Zevran, Shale, and Sten also develop a lot as well.



This is why I believe Bioware is amazing, we can sit here and talk and disect their charachters and settings and still find new stuff. Later peeps.

[Master Shiori]

Honestly, expecting Morrigan to do a 180° and abandon everything she believes in just because she's your friend or lover is taking it too far. You can influence the way she sees the world but only to the point of making her accept love and friendship. Trying to do more than that would be unrealistic.

The thing with DA is that all companions are more like people in real life. You can't change who they are and how they think just because you want to. You can influence them with your actions and reasoning but that's as far as it goes.

That's not to say Morrigan couldn't eventually change even more, but that would take time and a lot of effort on the part of the Warden himself to show her there's another side to what she believes. You get to do a bit of that in Origins and might continue in the sequal, provided both Morri and Warden are in it.

EDIT:

Here's a cute picture of little Morri admiring her mirror (until somebody walks in..)

Modifié par Master Shiori, 04 juillet 2010 - 07:43 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I think most people eventually hit a wall with Morrigan and give up, putting her into the cold, evil, swamp witch box. I will get around to hearing everything one of these days but that is not a swamp that is waded through lightly folks.

[Swoo]

Master Shiori wrote...

Truth be told I didn't follow DA:O closely until it was released.

I kind of flittered in and out seeing how long it was in development. Everytime I'd remember again and check it out, it would basically be a new game. I still remember when it was basically a BG clone running off the Unreal engine, heh.

The young Morri picture is nice, very ominous Flemeth in the background. Good find!

[MKDAWUSS]

Master Shiori wrote...

Honestly, expecting Morrigan to do a 180° and abandon everything she believes in just because she's your friend or lover is taking it too far. You can influence the way she sees the world but only to the point of making her accept love and friendship. Trying to do more than that would be unrealistic.

The thing with DA is that all companions are more like people in real life. You can't change who they are and how they think just because you want to. You can influence them with your actions and reasoning but that's as far as it goes.

That's not to say Morrigan couldn't eventually change even more, but that would take time and a lot of effort on the part of the Warden himself to show her there's another side to what she believes. You get to do a bit of that in Origins and might continue in the sequal, provided both Morri and Warden are in it.

I don't think anyone's expecting a 180, but at the same time, I'm not expecting the same Morrigan of the Korcari Wilds either. Also, I would think that there would at least be some acknowledgement of the prior interaction and relationship between the two. Would it continue? I doubt it - you'd also then have to give a continuation to the other romance storylines you developed in Origins. And that could mean basically bringing back your collection of Origins characters, which I really wouldn't quite care for. Besides, all of them could be dead at the end of Awakening.
Alistair/Loghain - executed at the Landsmeet, dies slaying the AD
Leliana - Killed at the Urn, killed in Lothering
Sten - Killed in Lothering
Oghren - Killed at Vigil's Keep
Wynne - Killed at the Urn, killed at the Circle Tower
Zevran - Killed during his ambush, killed in Denerim
Shale - Killed at the Anvil

And then there is the Anora relationship.

If we are to see Morrigan I would hope that the relationship is at least acknowledged and recognized, but at the same time, it could also leave the other romance stories out of the picture. Yes, none of the others produced the OGB, but not all Wardens were friends or lovers with Morrigan either.

[Master Shiori]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Honestly, expecting Morrigan to do a 180° and abandon everything she believes in just because she's your friend or lover is taking it too far. You can influence the way she sees the world but only to the point of making her accept love and friendship. Trying to do more than that would be unrealistic.

The thing with DA is that all companions are more like people in real life. You can't change who they are and how they think just because you want to. You can influence them with your actions and reasoning but that's as far as it goes.

That's not to say Morrigan couldn't eventually change even more, but that would take time and a lot of effort on the part of the Warden himself to show her there's another side to what she believes. You get to do a bit of that in Origins and might continue in the sequal, provided both Morri and Warden are in it.

I don't think anyone's expecting a 180, but at the same time, I'm not expecting the same Morrigan of the Korcari Wilds either. Also, I would think that there would at least be some acknowledgement of the prior interaction and relationship between the two. Would it continue? I doubt it - you'd also then have to give a continuation to the other romance storylines you developed in Origins. And that could mean basically bringing back your collection of Origins characters, which I really wouldn't quite care for. Besides, all of them could be dead at the end of Awakening.
Alistair/Loghain - executed at the Landsmeet, dies slaying the AD
Leliana - Killed at the Urn, killed in Lothering
Sten - Killed in Lothering
Oghren - Killed at Vigil's Keep
Wynne - Killed at the Urn, killed at the Circle Tower
Zevran - Killed during his ambush, killed in Denerim
Shale - Killed at the Anvil

And then there is the Anora relationship.

If we are to see Morrigan I would hope that the relationship is at least acknowledged and recognized, but at the same time, it could also leave the other romance stories out of the picture. Yes, none of the others produced the OGB, but not all Wardens were friends or lovers with Morrigan either.

The thing is Morrigan isn't important because of romance continuation. That's just a little extra for those who romanced her. The main point is to use her and the OGB as a plot element that can enrich the new story. Doing so doesn't mean you automatically need to bring back all the other love interests. Bioware said they have no problem with the idea of having a romance continue in a new game as long as it fits the story.

Morrigan does change during the course of Origins so that by it's end she isn't the same person you met in Korcari Wilds. However, if she and our Warden are to reunite in the sequal then that reunion needs to not only work for a Warden that romanced her, but also for all the other Wardens and also any new character created in DA2. That means we'll most likely get a few extra lines that would mention our past relationship with her, but kisses and hugs type of reunion shouldn't be expected. Most likely she'd be neutral towards us at first in order to allow us to rebuild (or build, in case of a new pc) our relationship the way we want to. Think of it more like how Ashley or Kaiden treated Shepard in ME2, even though they were his/her lovers.

As for bringing back companions from Origins, that is entirely optional. Awakening clearly showed, in case of Wynne and Oghren, that just because we may have been at bad terms with them or even killed them off they will be back if Bioware wants them to be.
Also, not all companions can be freely used in future games.
Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran and Shale could easily pop up again.
Alistair would be a problem since he has several different outcomes based on how you played, so the only way to handle him is by using canon which I find unlikely.
Sten could appear if the game deals with the Qunari in some way.
Oghren is a Grey Warden now and tied to Amaranthine, so don't expect him to show up again unless DA2 takes place in Ferelden.
Wynne is a circle mage and doesn't have the freedom to travel around as she pleases. At best she'd be an npcs like in Awakening.
Loghain, if alive, is stationed in Orlais so don't expect to see him unless DA2 takes place there.

[Swoo]

Master Shiori wrote...
As for bringing back companions from Origins, that is entirely optional. Awakening clearly showed, in case of Wynne and Oghren, that just because we may have been at bad terms with them or even killed them off they will be back if Bioware wants them to be.

Does Wynne show in Awakenings if you killed her off? I only played it once then took that POS off my computer, but the Wiki says "If Wynne was not killed during Dragon
Age: Origins she will appear outside the Chantry of Our
Lady Redeemer in the City of Amaranthine." Just wondering if it's a bug or bad wiki information.

Beside the point anyways, I understand what you are saying. They did the same thing in BG2 with multiple NPCs, even giving you a line of dialogue 'Aren't you supposed to be dead?', so they can handwave away the first game in  sorts.

And I like the dig on Alistair's cooking in Ximena's new art. 'Right, my cooking will kill us, that's all I'm saying.' was one of the few lines that made me literally laugh out loud. Just such a flash of silliness in such a dark part of the game.

[MKDAWUSS]

Master Shiori wrote...

Morrigan does change during the course of Origins so that by it's end she isn't the same person you met in Korcari Wilds. However, if she and our Warden are to reunite in the sequal then that reunion needs to not only work for a Warden that romanced her, but also for all the other Wardens and also any new character created in DA2. That means we'll most likely get a few extra lines that would mention our past relationship with her, but kisses and hugs type of reunion shouldn't be expected. Most likely she'd be neutral towards us at first in order to allow us to rebuild (or build, in case of a new pc) our relationship the way we want to. Think of it more like how Ashley or Kaiden treated Shepard in ME2, even though they were his/her lovers.

True, I was thinking that there would be one version for romance and one without - that variable is a bit more flexible than the entire DR (where there may even be no baby for instance, let alone that which possesses the spirit of Urthemiel). Romance or not, you can still end up at essentially the same place even though you may have forked off into different directions during the course of events (some which should make your life a bit easier). I just wouldn't want it to be a case of where you have either one group asking, "Where's the romance?" or another asking, "What romance?"

But if you're going to do that, then there should also be something for those who romanced someone else, since they should have their moments as well. Otherwise you're rewarding the Morrigan romancers while alienating everyone else.

[Master Shiori]

Swoo wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
As for bringing back companions from Origins, that is entirely optional. Awakening clearly showed, in case of Wynne and Oghren, that just because we may have been at bad terms with them or even killed them off they will be back if Bioware wants them to be.

Does Wynne show in Awakenings if you killed her off? I only played it once then took that POS off my computer, but the Wiki says "If Wynne was not killed during Dragon
Age: Origins she will appear outside the Chantry of Our
Lady Redeemer in the City of Amaranthine." Just wondering if it's a bug or bad wiki information.

She gives you a quest and updates you about the situation in the Circle of Magi, so yes, she does appear regardless of what happened to her in Origins.

And guess what line you can use when you see her? That's right; "Aren't you supposed to be dead?"

Modifié par Master Shiori, 04 juillet 2010 - 10:24 .

[Giggles_Manically]

D. Gaider is the one who wrote Morrigan right?



If so then what is his problem? I dont think he has ever written an happy romance for Bioware. They all seem to go off a cliff at many points.

[Master Shiori]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

D. Gaider is the one who wrote Morrigan right?

If so then what is his problem? I dont think he has ever written an happy romance for Bioware. They all seem to go off a cliff at many points.

Every romance he's written for a female pc was happy: Amonen, Valen, Alistair, Zevran. Not sure if he wrote any of the characters in Jade Empire, but everyone there had a happy ending.

His romances for male pc's are a different story:

Viconia
Gets assassinated in the epilogue. This one is the most similar to Morrigan. In fact her ending in Shadows of Amn is the same as Morrigan's in Origins, minus the OGB.

Arie
I think Gaider wrote her as well. Happy ending to this one.

Aribeth
The most tragic romance in history of Bioware rpgs. Not going to go into details but everything bad that  can happen here did happen.

Bastila Shan
Not 100% sure if Gaider wrote her, but she and Revan had a happy ending.

Silk Fox and Dawn Star
Again, not sure if Gaider wrote either of them, but both were a happy romance

Morrigan
We all know how this one ends.


So, his happy/tragic ratio seems to be about 50/50.
I'm still waiting for the day when he makes a tragic romance for a female pc. The fangirl rage should be spectacular to behold.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 04 juillet 2010 - 10:57 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Well it is pretty hard to get a happy ending with Alistair. The whole Kinging and DR put a cloud over it. I dont think Gaider wrote in Jade Empire, I have the booklet here let me go through the credits.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

Beside the point anyways, I understand what you are saying. They did the same thing in BG2 with multiple NPCs, even giving you a line of dialogue 'Aren't you supposed to be dead?', so they can handwave away the first game in  sorts.

I'm all for choices in games like DAO but the ability to kill off your companions seems kind of unnecessary to me. Sure its great for RP but it either blocks off that person from showing up in the future or it ends up like BG2 with dead people magically reappearing. I'd be curious to know how many people actually kill off recruitable companions in their playthroughs or get them pissed off enough so that they leave.

And thats another aspect I felt was lacking in Origins- even when you do have the opportunity to kill say Leliana or Wynne by tainting the Ashes, thats all there is to it. Nobody asks you about the fact that you just straight up murdered 2 of your companions or anything. It just seems like people are strangely silent about murdering companions...

Master Shiori wrote...

Every romance he's written for a female pc was happy: Amonen, Valen, Alistair, Zevran. Not sure if he wrote any of the characters in Jade Empire, but everyone there had a happy ending.

His romances for male pc's are a different story:

Viconia

Gets assassinated in the epilogue. This one is the most similarto Morrigan. In fact her ending in Shadows of Amn is the same as Morrigan's in Origins, minus the OGB.

Arie
I think Gaider wrote her as well. Happy ending to this one.

Aribeth
Themost tragic romance in history of Bioware rpgs. Not going to go into details but everything bad that  can happen here did happen.

Bastila ShanNot 100% sure if Gaider wrote her, but she and Revan had a happy ending.

Silk Fox and Dawn Star
Again, not sure if Gaider wrote either of them, but both were a happy romance

Morrigan
We all know how this one ends.

So, his happy/tragic ratio seems
to be about 50/50.
I'm still waiting for the day when he makes a tragic romance for a female pc. The fangirl rage should be spectacular to behold.

I'm quite sure for female LI's, Gaider wrote Viconia, Aerie, Aribeth, Bastila and Morrigan. I don't think he did anything with Jade Empire. As for all of them being tragic- yeah pretty much with the exception of Aerie which is about as saccharin sweet as you can get provided you can get over her moaning about her wings. Bastia's isn;t tragic either, unless of course you opt to off her on the Star Forge, but thats the PC's choice.

Ultimately  the "tragic" romances are the ones that are most memorable though. I just think throwing "tragedy" into a romance is the quickest and easiest way to trigger some sort of "emotional engagement" out of the player. That said though, you can still have an interesting romance plot without making it tragic- you've got to give it ups and downs like say Jaheira's from BG2. There has to be some sort of conflict. Otherwise it just devolves into "lets make kissy faces!" and thats boring.

I guess you could argue that Alistair's romance can turn "tragic" though if he goes all Kamikaze Lover on the Archdemon. Surely that took some by surprise?

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 juillet 2010 - 11:15 .

[Master Shiori]

The only problem with Alistair romance is that you need to have him do the deed with Morrigan.



Other than that as long as you make Anora rule alone (which isn't so hard to do since Ali boy repeatedly tells you he doesn't want the throne in the first place) you should be all set for a happy ever after.



For me, as a Morrigan fan, having him do the DR is probably the hardest thing to swallow in DA:O. It makes me fell really bad that Morrigan needs to sleep with someone she despises in order to save my life.

[Ronashavar]

Swoo wrote...



Master Shiori wrote...

As for bringing back companions from Origins, that is entirely optional. Awakening clearly showed, in case of Wynne and Oghren, that just because we may have been at bad terms with them or even killed them off they will be back if Bioware wants them to be.







Does Wynne show in Awakenings if you killed her off? I only played it once then took that POS off my computer, but the Wiki says "If Wynne was not killed during Dragon

Age: Origins she will appear outside the Chantry of Our

Lady Redeemer in the City of Amaranthine." Just wondering if it's a bug or bad wiki information.







She gives you a quest and updates you about the situation in the Circle of Magi, so yes, she does appear regardless of what happened to her in Origins.



And guess what line you can use when you see her? That's right; "Aren't you supposed to be dead?







Uh actually no. In my latest Origins playthrough I experienced a rather amusing bug during a side quest in the Circle Tower(Watchguard of the Reaching)During the battle w/ Shah Wyrd, Petra, Kinnon, and Keili all died from friendly fire(explosion from virulent walking bomb and death cloud) which caused Wynne's character codex to update "While trying to save what was left of the Circle, Wynne was cut down by Archonessa", even though Wynne was actually alive and ticking back at camp. I thought nothing of it since the codex is just riddled w/ inaccuracies, until I imported Archonessa into Awakening that is. Low and behold, when I reached the Amaranthine chantry, Wynne was no where to be found(in my previous Awakening playthrough, she was there, and told my warden, "Oh it's you. You tend to show up unexpectedly, like a bad rash!")That being said, I REALLY hope Bioware will take these codex "bugs" into consideration when implementing past decisions into the sequel as everyone on this thread is aware of the whole Morrigan relationship/approval "bug" in the Awakening epilogue.

[Mustang678]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hehe I thought I didnt get along with Morrigan, my friend who just finished his first complete run-through really hates her. I tried to calm him down but no luck. I wonder if most people have Morrigan ruined for them after their first run through? I am pretty good at RPing my PC's but I think Morrigan could be ruined by metagaming. How bout the rest of you?

Back to the ME2 mine I go, so far Sentinel is amazing, totally going to dump Kaiden for Garrus after Horizon.

You know I'm noticing this too. I'm replaying my Xbox character on the PC for the save and I'm just not nearly as interested in Morrigan as I was for the first playthrough. I find it incredibly hard to reject Leliana repeatedly

[Giggles_Manically]

Morrigan's romance is definently well done, but to me every single time I get past one thing, she does something equally irksome that pushes me away. Not like I have to romance her again got the acheivement so all is good.

[Swoo]

Master Shiori wrote...

Every romance he's written for a female pc was happy: Amonen, Valen, Alistair, Zevran. Not sure if he wrote any of the characters in Jade Empire, but everyone there had a happy ending.

His romances for male pc's are a different story:

Viconia
Gets assassinated in the epilogue. This one is the most similar to Morrigan. In fact her ending in Shadows of Amn is the same as Morrigan's in Origins, minus the OGB.

Arie
I think Gaider wrote her as well. Happy ending to this one.

Aribeth
The most tragic romance in history of Bioware rpgs. Not going to go into details but everything bad that  can happen here did happen.

Bastila Shan
Not 100% sure if Gaider wrote her, but she and Revan had a happy ending.

Morrigan
We all know how this one ends.


So, his happy/tragic ratio seems to be about 50/50.
I'm still waiting for the day when he makes a tragic romance for a female pc. The fangirl rage should be spectacular to behold.

Well, if judging by his past works, every romance he has written has had a good ending just some took more work than others to achieve.

Aerie: Ugh, the whining and stuttering just drove me crazy. But it's the only game romance I can think of past the OGB where you actually have a kid. It of course ends up perfectly Disney. Blech.

Viconia: The Morrigan plan. Full of stress, confusing, fighting, and then love and loss. The funny thing is when you hear people talk about the BG romances, Viconia always gets referred to as the Real Life Romance. Throne of Bhaal not only reconnected the two of you, but Viconia actually could change Alignment based on the romance, and you got a pretty great ending when you consider where you were left in BG2. You married, settled down, had many good years, and then of course that last minute gutpunch.

Aribeth/Bastilla: These are basically the exact same romances. It's also interesting to note that Obsidian destroyed both of them. As far as Gaider and his writing were concerned, these had good, conclusive endings. Obsidian came in and ret-conned Aribeth to a bad ending after the fact, and Bastilla was knocked aside by the Exile taking stage in Part II (which from what I hear was supposed to set up Revan's return in the third, but now we'll never know with TOR taking place 500 years after KOTOR).

Did he write Jaheria as well? That is one amazing interaction, just with all the outside stuff thrown at you like dealing with the "cliched" bandit attack with the knife to the lovers throat, the Harper Inquisition, Ployer's Curse, the Locket and piece of Jaheria's hair. ****, I'm going to have to play BG2 again just to do her romance again.

[Brockololly]

Swoo wrote...

Aribeth/Bastilla: These are basically the exact same romances. It's also interesting to note that Obsidian destroyed both of them. As far as Gaider and his writing were concerned, these had good, conclusive endings. Obsidian came in and ret-conned Aribeth to a bad ending after the fact, and Bastilla was knocked aside by the Exile taking stage in Part II (which from what I hear was supposed to set up Revan's return in the third, but now we'll never know with TOR taking place 500 years after KOTOR).

Ugh... KOTOR2 kills me... its a great game that semingly got rushed out the door by Lucasarts waaay too early. And I'd be fine with most of it if we ended up with an epic KOTOR3 with Revan and the Exile but nope, we get TOR instead- meh.

As for Obsidian ret-conning Aribeth, how so? I never played the NWN games, I've only read about them but I'm pretty sure Gaider wrote for NWN1 and then Aribeth again in Hordes of the Underdark where they kind of canonized things with her being dead and all. Did NWN2 do anything more with Aribeth?

Swoo wrote...
Did he write Jaheria as well? That is one amazing interaction, just with all the outside stuff thrown at you like dealing with the "cliched" bandit attack with the knife to the lovers throat, the Harper Inquisition, Ployer's Curse, the Locket and piece of Jaheria's hair. ****, I'm going to have to play BG2 again just to do her romance again.

I don't believe so- I think BG2 was Gaider's first game with BioWare. But yeah, Jaheria's romance is like the gold standard in my view- it starts with her having her life flipped upside down in Irenicus' dungeon and then you've got all of the little personal quests going on with the Harpers and the Curse and then she can get turned into a vampire by Bodhi... *sigh* I know from reading the old BioWare forums that the Jaheira romance was a **** to program but dammit if it didn't turn out phenomonal when everything triggered correctly. Viconia's romance is good but I prefer Jaheira's.