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[Brockololly]

The thing is for me at least is this: all the info and images released thus far make DA2 seem more like the Marilyn Manson, sky high flipping, action packed Sacred Ashes trailer than what we've come to know and love in Origins.



The PR and marketing speak from the DA2 site and from the EA press release don't sound like the Dragon Age I've come to enjoy- it sounds like they're having a Dragon Age do over to make it more suitable to the twitch happy FPS, 300 loving crowd.



With Origins, we had seen screens and knew from the get go that it was actually an old school RPG before they released the EXTREME! bro marketing for it. GIven how radically they implemented changes into ME2, BioWare's only other recent sequel, it stands to reason that those of us who liked Origins just fine might be concerned BioWare is trying to expand DA's mass market appeal by essentially cutting out the old school BG fans.



I'm hoping much of what was released today is marketing hype speak and not indicative of the final product. With any luck, the 10 page Game Informer article will either put some fears to rest or merely stoke the flames of discontent. Time will tell....

[KnightofPhoenix]

http://news.ea.com/p...365&newsLang=en

"With Dragon Age 2, the world’s preeminent RPG developer is revolutionizing the genre again, infusing the universe with more action, a new, more responsive combat system"

Dr. Ray Muzyka, Senior Vice President of Electronic Arts and co-founder and Group General Manager of BioWare. “Dragon Age 2 will simultaneously deliver an epic story and set a new bar for intense action in the genre. We're very excited to deliver this next bold evolution in the Dragon Age franchise to our fans.”

Dragon Age 2 Executive Producer Mark Darrah. “We are amplifying the things that made Dragon Age: Origins such a huge success while introducing a more dynamic combat system, improving the graphics, and telling the most important story in our world.”

Can we get slightly angry now?

[ejoslin]

You know, when Awakening was released, a lot of people were upset and concerned because of the dialog system, which was defended rigorously by the writers here in the forums. Many people tried to shout down the people who were upset about it, saying, "what do you expect, it was an expansion," and, "I like this better!" and so forth. People who said they liked the old system got criticized (wrongly) and told they were saying they wanted MOAR. It was also made pretty clear that the dialog from DAO was very expensive and cost was something that was going to be taken into consideration in future games.



So yeh, it's pretty likely that DA2 will be very different. Especially since you're not seeing, "Engaging conversation system that will help you form relationships with your companions," or whatever (at least I don't think -- admittedly I haven't read THAT much). Hell, even FO:NV is boasting of that.



However, even if DA2 is just "very good" instead of "epic" I'll buy it and play it. But I'll wait for the reviews from players, not from gaming sites that rely on EA advertising.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ah yes "Traditional RPG FANS" the supposed group who enjoys story, charachters, and narrative as much as combat. Ah we have dismissed those claimes.

-EA Council to Bioware and fan base.



Hopes for a mondo renegade interupt on that tool BTW.

[KnightofPhoenix]

What is making me scared, is the word "revolutionize". "Improve", that's great. "Revolutionize" means "throw it in the garbage, we'll have something else. Add "intense" and dynamic" and we'll get...I shudder to even say it.

[adneate]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

http://news.ea.com/p...365&newsLang=en

"With Dragon Age 2, the world’s preeminent RPG developer is revolutionizing the genre again, infusing the universe with more action, a new, more responsive combat system"

Dr. Ray Muzyka, Senior Vice President of Electronic Arts and co-founder and Group General Manager of BioWare. “Dragon Age 2 will simultaneously deliver an epic story and set a new bar for intense action in the genre. We're very excited to deliver this next bold evolution in the Dragon Age franchise to our fans.”

Dragon Age 2 Executive Producer Mark Darrah. “We are amplifying the things that made Dragon Age: Origins such a huge success while introducing a more dynamic combat system, improving the graphics, and telling the most important story in our world.”

Can we get slightly angry now?

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE, that so EXXXXXXXXTREME! Amp up the awesome bro! Shift the hell out of our paradigms, revolutionize the whole damn INDUSTRY. ARE YOU READY FOR THE NEW S***?

[KnightofPhoenix]

DO YOU WANT IT?!

No.

[Giggles_Manically]

I will wait, I trust Bioware to do a good job, but if I get some wierd 300/medieval/whateva in March, with only combat and minute long convos then I will lose it. Bioware is the only company outside of Bethesda or Valve that has this much loyalty from me.



Although we never know DA2 could blow DA1 out of the water and leave us amazed. <insert roll eyes here> the 17th cant come soon enough. Although another Manson trailer will be guarenteed with EA marketing it.

[Giggles_Manically]

Hey I like the song New S@@t from Manson.

[adneate]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hey I like the song New S@@t from Manson.

You are a bad person and you should feel bad.

[Giggles_Manically]

Its not my favourite song by far, but I still like it.



also adneate +10 renegade points for you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

+ 10 approval points from me to Adneate. We don't use "morality" points here.

Which reminds me. NO MORALITY METER IN DA2!!

[phaonica]

"telling the most important story in our world.”



If they're already going to tell us the world's most important story, does that mean this is the last DA game?

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

"telling the most important story in our world.”

If they're already going to tell us the world's most important story, does that mean this is the last DA game?

Or perhaps they intend to kill our hopes right now. That's merciful actually.

Yep, bad marketing strat. Stressing on what didn't make Origins awesome, and claiming that nothign will be as important as DA2 in the future.  

[TheBlackBaron]

Alright, I'm trying to avoid a knee-jerk reaction, and I really try to avoid being one of those "They Changed It Now It Sucks" types, but...



Is that Exalted March to Edmonton still on?

[Swoo]

Well what an interesting day so far. And hey, a troll or two even decided to show up trying to convince themselves they are witty. Sigh, I missed those times!

1) Hawke: I don't really care what the PCs last name is, my mage was forced into Amell for christsake, I just wince at how 'extreme' and 'you know he's a badass because...' the name rings as when combined with the 300 crotchnuzzling they continue to push on the game. The entire first game was dedicated to using S/I/G naming conventions that directly corresponded to the character type or personality. It feels like having someone named General Grevious show up in Lord of the Rings. Not a deal breaker by any means, although a part of me laughs and then dies everytime I see someone throw up the idea of Mike as the first name and act like they just dropped the million dollar idea. Give the Bro's what they want I suppose. Judging by all the jagoff 'Yeah, I'm Commander Hawke, YEAH!' Bro-chanting going on in the forums, the Bro's appreciate it Bioware. Bro. I feel I needed to use that word at least one more time to make sure the horse never gets back up.

2)Fully Voiced: Confirmed? Not yet? Not surprised with this one at all either. Bioware has made a heavy push that '100% fully voice acted' is it's niche in the RPG world. Blizzard even took some potshots at them over it about TOR as to why they would never do it. So with Mass Effect, Old Republic, and now Dragon Age they will have fully voiced worlds in all three flagship titles. This isn't a bad thing at all, I just want to know what the voice sounds like. I doubt they would have Mark Meer voice both main male PCs even though I'd feel a lot better knowing he was who was tapped. I just worry they will go for that low, gravely 'serious badass...seriously' monotone. They've given me nothing to base that on other than...once again...this fallback on constantly hyping the 'SPAAAARTA' angle. Being fully voiced doesn't bother me in the slightest if it means we have have the ability to have true conversations with NPCs and not this Jedi handwave B.S. they dropped into Origins at times. Could be a very good thing, especially if we get to have some true verbal sparring going on between our PC and various NPCs like you saw with Mass Effect. Sometimes the 'No, you're wrong' 'Oh, you are so right Warden, lets do it your way instead' after a NPC's twenty second monologue just drove me crazy in Origins.

3)The Free Marches sound better than placing the game in Orlais. I've always liked the idea of the Marches and wanted to know more about it. It's rather obviously patterned after Hansa (which was used as the basis for this little place called Ten Towns). I like the idea of the Marches a lot because if they are at least half true to the source material, it will feel a lot different than Fereldan. I could be reading this wrong but they make it sound like you take the independant city states and forge them into a singular force over the span of ten years which does not sound attractive. I like the idea of the seperate and barely friendly city states a lot better than 'and now you are a superpower!', but we will have to see how it goes. Other than Teventir proper, the Free Marches excite me more than any other place on Ferelden, so looking forward to this.

4)Extreme bonecrunching soulripping blah blah blah combat. We'll see whatever the hell this means. Right now it's just a jumble of internet buzz words that is better than 'POWERED BY FRIED CHICKEN', but not exactly by much. I play Bioware games for the story, there are much better franchises Dragon Age will never touch for that 'sick combat' fun. Doesn't mean it will be a bad game, it's just blatant PR speak to the 15 year old suburban bro in training. Not a fan of that at all, but at the end of the day it's truly meaningless to the final product. I liked the MMO-esque combat to Origins, so I'm hoping they don't go too wild trying to be more interactive and unique and turn the game into what is basically a fighter with levels.

5).New Visual Style: Production art means nothing as a basis of style. My favorite video game artist (and artist period, actually) is Yo****aka Amano, and his designs were always rather out there and had that genderless Japanese quality to everything, while always over accentuating the complete lack of symmetry and abundance of jagged edges to everything. I want screenshots. Ever since finding out that Bioware was knocked repeatedly for the graphical quality of Dragon Age (which I found perfectly fine other than the blandness of armor and equipment, but even that didn't detract from my enjoyment) it seems to be nothing more than a heavy handed attempt to go 'You can't say that this time!'. Maybe they are right, Maybe they aren't. If it looked exactly like DA:O or KOTOR, I'd still be fine with the game. Great graphics, average story only really saves your ass in FPS titles. My only concern is they go Brutal Legend...yet serious...with the game, which is a vibe I've picked up from a lot of people. Let the screenshots set you free.

6)SPAAARTA: Please quit. Please. 300 and Spartacus:BaS are guilty pleasures, but one of the things that makes them great is just how totally tasteless they are at the end of the day. You are Bioware Goddammit, quit selling me the Bro Buzz. It didn't work on me in my teens when Lucasarts was pushing Gladius, and it's not working now.

7)White haired witch: Did they say she wasn't the OGB? I haven't been keeping track of that hellhole that the DA2 subforum has quickly devolved into. Judging (Guesstimation at it's finest), from her concept art and the cover art with the allusion to the High Dragon with her, I'd say she's my leader right now for the OGB. That idea does interest me quite a bit. Plus, digging into her backstory over the course of the game could give them several opportunities to drop the fate of MorrixWarden in some semblance of closure.

8)Timeframe: This seems to happen after our Blight, and there doesn't seem to be that huge of a timejump, so it's highly possible we will still see some fan-favorite NPCs from the first game popping back into the second game. The ten year progression worries me but I really need to see how they pull it off before coming to peace with it or putting a nail in the coffin over it. No fault of Bioware's, just Fable's lies and J-RPG's mishandling of decent timejumps during a story leave me with no faith in it. We'll see.

9)Linear!: It was always going to be linear, it's how Bioware makes their games. They aren't Bethesda, you will never have a good open-world sandbox game from them. You get the choice of going 1-2-3-4, or 2-4-1-3, or any other variation with them, but you always go one to four with maybe a slight detour on the way.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sorry got which forum I was on backwards. -10 Approval for Manson hate from me.



If DA2 is becomes the equivalent of a fantasy ME2 than I am not getting it. I like DA2 because of the dialouge and story. NOT HACK AND SLASH.

[adneate]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or perhaps they intend to kill our hopes right now. That's merciful actually.

Yep, bad marketing strat. Stressing on what didn't make Origins awesome, and claiming that nothign will be as important as DA2 in the future.  

They called it the most important story in the history of Dragon Age
But the fans of the genre call it . . .
Mass Effect

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ swoo.

The problem with voice acting is that it forces a personality on the character and doesn't give you as much room imagining/ creating *your* character than a silent PC.

Furthermore, ME was just as bad in terms of convincing NPCs in a setence or two. You can make Tali divulge military secrets to the sentient species that almost destroyed them by yelling at her for a bit. Meh. Plus, he can just say things that I didn't want him to say.

With Origins, I can at least imagine (call it pretend if you want), that my character had more to say than a set of two sentences like ME. I never subscribed to the literalist school of thought and I always took DA dialogue options flexibly, but within limits of what is written. I can't do that in ME.

I want to play *my* character, not a character written and imagined for me. and I want to see what kinf of characters others create. That's the whole point of an RPG for me.  A great one at least.

adneate wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or perhaps they intend to kill our hopes right now. That's merciful actually.

Yep, bad marketing strat. Stressing on what didn't make Origins awesome, and claiming that nothign will be as important as DA2 in the future.  

They called it the most important story in the history of Dragon Age
But the fans of the genre call it . . .
Mass Effect

Win.

[Swoo]

Oh, I get that Knight I really do. My biggest gripe about Mass Effect is that you are only renting your PC from Bioware instead of making it your own. Dragon Effect in one day has gone from true RPG generation and playstyle into this rent-a-hero design philosophy, so I already gave up on any hope of it being 'my' hero and just looked at the plus side to full V.O.

[MKDAWUSS]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Alright, I'm trying to avoid a
knee-jerk reaction, and I really try to avoid being one of those "They
Changed It Now It Sucks" types, but...

Is that Exalted March to
Edmonton still on?

I might need to do a victory lap around Commonwealth Stadium whenever it happens, since we'd all already be there.

Swoo wrote...

Well what an interesting day so far. And hey, a troll or two even decided to show up trying to convince themselves they are witty. Sigh, I missed those times!

1) Hawke: I don't really care what the PCs last name is, my mage was forced into Amell for christsake, I just wince at how 'extreme' and 'you know he's a badass because...' the name rings as when combined with the 300 crotchnuzzling they continue to push on the game. The entire first game was dedicated to using S/I/G naming conventions that directly corresponded to the character type or personality. It feels like having someone named General Grevious show up in Lord of the Rings. Not a deal breaker by any means, although a part of me laughs and then dies everytime I see someone throw up the idea of Mike as the first name and act like they just dropped the million dollar idea. Give the Bro's what they want I suppose. Judging by all the jagoff 'Yeah, I'm Commander Hawke, YEAH!' Bro-chanting going on in the forums, the Bro's appreciate it Bioware. Bro. I feel I needed to use that word at least one more time to make sure the horse never gets back up.

Chances are you'll never be referred to by name, so it may not be that big of a deal. I do think they could have gone with something better. Maybe it's going to be the subject of symbolism and nicknames (not just Michael Hawke, but lame puns based off the bird itself), who knows. Maybe the preset name should have been the first name, then maybe the other NPCs would call you by name then.

2)Fully Voiced: Confirmed? Not yet? Not surprised with this one at all either. Bioware has made a heavy push that '100% fully voice acted' is it's niche in the RPG world. Blizzard even took some potshots at them over it about TOR as to why they would never do it. So with Mass Effect, Old Republic, and now Dragon Age they will have fully voiced worlds in all three flagship titles. This isn't a bad thing at all, I just want to know what the voice sounds like. I doubt they would have Mark Meer voice both main male PCs even though I'd feel a lot better knowing he was who was tapped. I just worry they will go for that low, gravely 'serious badass...seriously' monotone. They've given me nothing to base that on other than...once again...this fallback on constantly hyping the 'SPAAAARTA' angle. Being fully voiced doesn't bother me in the slightest if it means we have have the ability to have true conversations with NPCs and not this Jedi handwave B.S. they dropped into Origins at times. Could be a very good thing, especially if we get to have some true verbal sparring going on between our PC and various NPCs like you saw with Mass Effect. Sometimes the 'No, you're wrong' 'Oh, you are so right Warden, lets do it your way instead' after a NPC's twenty second monologue just drove me crazy in Origins.

In Origins, we did have multiple VO sets to choose from, so I can only hope that DA2 has the same sort of setup. Although, I'll admit, it DAO the PC VO didn't say much....

3)The Free Marches sound better than placing the game in Orlais. I've always liked the idea of the Marches and wanted to know more about it. It's rather obviously patterned after Hansa (which was used as the basis for this little place called Ten Towns). I like the idea of the Marches a lot because if they are at least half true to the source material, it will feel a lot different than Fereldan. I could be reading this wrong but they make it sound like you take the independant city states and forge them into a singular force over the span of ten years which does not sound attractive. I like the idea of the seperate and barely friendly city states a lot better than 'and now you are a superpower!', but we will have to see how it goes. Other than Teventir proper, the Free Marches excite me more than any other place on Ferelden, so looking forward to this.

Well, that's one way of having Hawke become a poor little who-dat to King of the Free Marches (and the FM may get a new name if it winds up being united). I could see some class, status, or wealth envy being one possible motivation, but I think that would be left to the player. Who knows.

4)Extreme bonecrunching soulripping blah blah blah combat. We'll see whatever the hell this means. Right now it's just a jumble of internet buzz words that is better than 'POWERED BY FRIED CHICKEN', but not exactly by much. I play Bioware games for the story, there are much better franchises Dragon Age will never touch for that 'sick combat' fun. Doesn't mean it will be a bad game, it's just blatant PR speak to the 15 year old suburban bro in training. Not a fan of that at all, but at the end of the day it's truly meaningless to the final product. I liked the MMO-esque combat to Origins, so I'm hoping they don't go too wild trying to be more interactive and unique and turn the game into what is basically a fighter with levels.

THIS. Most games/movies/books/other media I get into is so I can experience a good story. That was something that made DAO great. I just hope that they aren't going to overhype this game by drumming up the BAMF angle so much, especially since that will attract a lot of thin-skinned, high-expectation fanboys who'll throw massive fits that will make today's complaints look like a simple objection if their character's God-like status has even the slightest blemish.

5).New Visual Style: Production art means nothing as a basis of style. My favorite video game artist (and artist period, actually) is Yo****aka Amano, and his designs were always rather out there and had that genderless Japanese quality to everything, while always over accentuating the complete lack of symmetry and abundance of jagged edges to everything. I want screenshots. Ever since finding out that Bioware was knocked repeatedly for the graphical quality of Dragon Age (which I found perfectly fine other than the blandness of armor and equipment, but even that didn't detract from my enjoyment) it seems to be nothing more than a heavy handed attempt to go 'You can't say that this time!'. Maybe they are right, Maybe they aren't. If it looked exactly like DA:O or KOTOR, I'd still be fine with the game. Great graphics, average story only really saves your ass in FPS titles. My only concern is they go Brutal Legend...yet serious...with the game, which is a vibe I've picked up from a lot of people. Let the screenshots set you free.

Too early to tell on graphics, but I just hope it isn't going to be like the KOTOR - TOR transition. While graphics aren't number 1 on the priorities list, they are up there.

6)SPAAARTA: Please quit. Please. 300 and Spartacus:BaS are guilty pleasures, but one of the things that makes them great is just how totally tasteless they are at the end of the day. You are Bioware Goddammit, quit selling me the Bro Buzz. It didn't work on me in my teens when Lucasarts was pushing Gladius, and it's not working now.

Hopefully any references/easter eggs won't be overdone and overexposed.

7)White haired witch: Did they say she wasn't the OGB? I haven't been keeping track of that hellhole that the DA2 subforum has quickly devolved into. Judging (Guesstimation at it's finest), from her concept art and the cover art with the allusion to the High Dragon with her, I'd say she's my leader right now for the OGB. That idea does interest me quite a bit. Plus, digging into her backstory over the course of the game could give them several opportunities to drop the fate of MorrixWarden in some semblance of closure.

I'm almost ready to quit trying to pay attention/keep track of who is who in terms of DA2 characters for now. I think there's been like 3 different revisions to speculations already.

8)Timeframe: This seems to happen after our Blight, and there doesn't seem to be that huge of a timejump, so it's highly possible we will still see some fan-favorite NPCs from the first game popping back into the second game. The ten year progression worries me but I really need to see how they pull it off before coming to peace with it or putting a nail in the coffin over it. No fault of Bioware's, just Fable's lies and J-RPG's mishandling of decent timejumps during a story leave me with no faith in it. We'll see.

I actually kind of like the time shift, as it does allow for the epilogue choices to reach some common point - the epilogue options seemed to put everything to the same conclusion - the difference being how long it took to get there. However, I doubt there'll be much reference to what we did in Origins regardless.

9)Linear!: It was always going to be linear, it's how Bioware makes their games. They aren't Bethesda, you will never have a good open-world sandbox game from them. You get the choice of going 1-2-3-4, or 2-4-1-3, or any other variation with them, but you always go one to four with maybe a slight detour on the way.

Either way, you reach the same point and your actions essentially produce the same consequences, but there are usually several endings that differ from one another in the end. The endings is where the only consequence lies IMO.

[adneate]

@Swoo

1) Hawke. Yeah I don't actually care either, I mean everyone is going to be calling me Hawke so though the concept of Mike Hawke is slightly humourous the execution just isn't going to be there. If anything Hawke just seems so plain and focus tested, while that means nothing since it's just a name it worries me nonetheless.

2) Fully Voiced. Knight of Phoenix mentioned some of my concerns but I'll add a few of my own. I enjoy creating characters in DA, since they are blank personalities I can let my imagination run wild and only lore holds me back. The problem with a fully VOed character is that they have a preset personality your design has to take account for that. Commander Shepard isn't a limitless personality, you have to accomodate that character or it tends to look very off in game. Plus I find that once a character is made using said VO set I can't really bring myself to then totally change their face, it's like playing Origins with Bioware's Morrigan morph and then going out to get one that turned her into a blonde haired Elf with blue eyes. It messes with your familiarity of a character, suddenly your best friend has a new face but the same voice and it really freaks you out. The exact same thing can happen to a VOed PC since suddenly your Commander Shepard's voice is coming out of someone stranger's face.

8) Timeline. I don't know how I'd feel about cameos by Origins companions, in general my gut reaction is to be against it. The danger is seeing them acting in a manner totally outside of their character and in a way that totally contradicts the epilogue in Origins or Awakening, like Wynne being in Amaranthine when she's supposed to be in Tevinter. If they just never show up and never get a mention it might be safer, obviously Morrigan and Alistair have the possibilty to be exceptions but Leliana and Zevran should for sure stay out of the game.

[Swoo]

Adneate:

I agree with the part about the voice acting. Knight is correct, and it truly is the death of our character and instead is just rent-a-hero to play Bioware's story. With the bullcrap they have pulled (must be human, must have this name, must have this Origin and storyline) having a voice or not really does nothing as far as putting a personal stamp on what is going to be an impersonal avatar. I like Shepard, I enjoy his story, his games are fun, he's not my character. Hawke is going to be the same way. I guess I should have said that as a preface so people could see where I was coming from.

As to the timeline, unless they drop a 'this is 30-40 years in the future', I expect to see a few Dragon Age NPCs return as NPCs in DA2. It's just Bioware's M.O. to pick and choose their favorites from the previous game and throw them in the mix of a whole slew of new NPCs. As to not wanting to see NPCs because it will ruin our Origins story, barring something completely out of character as to the reinvention of the franchise they are dropping today, we all need to stop and come to grips with something right now : They lied to us. Our choices never mattered. DA2 will have enforced Canon about Origins that will probably be left vague in most parts to not completely put the finger into the eye of fans, but as far as they are concerned we were the alternate universe of Dragon Age.


MK:

Graphically, I hope they are using the Unreal engine from Mass Effect. It's far superior to the DA one, and it's something they already have experience in using and crafting things with.

Modifié par Swoo, 09 juillet 2010 - 12:20 .

[Quett]

adneate wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I thought Morrigan was mostly bluffing about never seeing us again  

In times like these there is only one man who can make sense of such a situation.

Wow, I didn't know the term "Gaider'd" had spread this far.

[adneate]

Fair enough Swoo you feel exactly the same way I do about Shepard, I like her but not mine by any measure.



As for the timeline well that pretty much was my apocalypse scenario I'll wait and see if it's as bad as it feels but yeah they say Origins will not be made pointless but I'll believe it when I see it. Without savegame importation then it's a bold face lie, with importation it just further raises the question of why we need this Hawke character to begin with.



Also on DA using Unreal Engine 3, I don't think they're going to stop using their custom engine they poured years of time and tons of money into. UE3 is a modern engine however it's not BioWare's which cripples the mod community since Epic is not going to hand out the development set for free, ever. It seems more likely that they will intergrate HDR and Dynamic lighting into Dragon Age's engine rather than move to a totally new engine.