16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

adneate wrote...

You didn't refute my point but I'll refute yours once again. Hawke is less mine in about every single way, since he/she has a predefined voice they are always going to sound and inflect on things exactly the same.

Once more your infatutation with your own voice is silly. I mean seriously you have no voice in the game. Period. You can't. The writers create lines that have a very specific response. The voice is not yours. The words may occasionally mirror your desires but they will clearly never mirror your own thoughts. 

I posted this elsewhere to have a concrete example - and notice it took me about 15 minutes of gaming to find this one. First battle in the Dalish Origins after you get the mage going back to look for Tamerlan. You kill the genlocks then she asks if you are ok and then you get:

1. I'm fine. Why do
you ask?
2. Nothing I won't recover from.
3. Stop fussing over me.

Tell me JUST from the written dialog which one is playful, which one is angry? Put the right growl on it and the first one is a big "F you" to her - I know I used that same basic line and tone with my wife back when we used to put together IKEA furntitureand I was scraping knuckles on allen wrenches. The last one could be playful if you deliver it the right way with that sort of "Oh you..." tone on it. Thing is there's no way the game knows that. I know the first one is playful and the last one is the "die in a fire" response because the game is tone deaf. Just like with the voiced character I am not picking words but tone and intent. Your "voice" does not matter because you are less making up lines (you aren't) than selecting a mood and tone that NPC's react to.

In fact to be religious about your argument you'd need to say you want nothing but moods and also no voice. Then when she asks"Are you ok" you can pick from: irriated, angry, loving, funny and she would react to the mood and you can imagine whatever words you want and then you could have a voice.

[adneate]

Sidney wrote...

Once more your infatutation with your own voice is silly. I mean seriously you have no voice in the game. Period. You can't. The writers create lines that have a very specific response. The voice is not yours. The words may occasionally mirror your desires but they will clearly never mirror your own thoughts. 

I posted this elsewhere to have a concrete example - and notice it took me about 15 minutes of gaming to find this one. First battle in the Dalish Origins after you get the mage going back to look for Tamerlan. You kill the genlocks then she asks if you are ok and then you get:

1. I'm fine. Why do
you ask?
2. Nothing I won't recover from.
3. Stop fussing over me.

Tell me JUST from the written dialog which one is playful, which one is angry? Put the right growl on it and the first one is a big "F you" to her - I know I used that same basic line and tone with my wife back when we used to put together IKEA furntitureand I was scraping knuckles on allen wrenches. The last one could be playful if you deliver it the right way with that sort of "Oh you..." tone on it. Thing is there's no way the game knows that. I know the first one is playful and the last one is the "die in a fire" response because the game is tone deaf. Just like with the voiced character I am not picking words but tone and intent. Your "voice" does not matter because you are less making up lines (you aren't) than selecting a mood and tone that NPC's react to.

In fact to be religious about your argument you'd need to say you want nothing but moods and also no voice. Then when she asks"Are you ok" you can pick from: irriated, angry, loving, funny and she would react to the mood and you can imagine whatever words you want and then you could have a voice.

You must really like being wrong, I doubt anything I could say would get through to you since you clearly have made up your mind and will not see anything outside of it. But since I am anything if not generous I will refute your poorly written point once again.

Why is wanting to experince the story from my perspective silly? I assume that is the point of the game, to get personally invested in the story, the world and the characters. Also I do have a voice when I read the lines in my head that is my voice in the world.

Your second point is a mess, but it appears you shot your own argument dead in the same paragraph. You've given me 3 lines and an NPC reaction then proceeded to apply a bunch of inflections that could make them be anything you want them to be. That's pretty much why I prefer the non-voiced system in Dragon Age, since often times it doesn't enforce inflection, the lines can mean different things to different players and that personal inflection you acquire while reading them in your head is the meaning for you and since it is exactly what you want it to be it furthers your immersion in the game. With a voiced player character you select an emotion then they verbally vomit on screen, how is that superior in terms of game specific mechanics. To me it seems to just be movie mechanics with a game system that activates a series of clips. So no in Origins I am not just picking tone and intent I am picking the exact words and adding tone and intent based on my involvement in the story and the character with which I am conversing. The lines are well written enough that I am rarely shocked by the response from an NPC.

Lastly you are wrong again, the system you came up with makes no sense since there are no words for me to read. Since I can't read anything and as I established before reading the lines is my voice in the world, all I am doing is pushing buttons and getting totally disconnected responses from an NPC.

The fact of the matter is you are defending a system that the developers themselves previously blasted for it's inability to create an experince for the player that is not in the third person. Why you seem to think otherwise isn't exactly clear but I guess you must really like Mass Effect, maybe you should go play that instead.

[adneate]

Stupid forums double posting on me.

Modifié par adneate, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:48 .

[Barbarossa2010]

You know adneate, the dialogue system is yet another one of those things that was not only NOT broken but GREAT. So, true to form for this Dev Team, IT MUST BE FIXED at once...chaaaaaaarge!!!!!!!

As one who came in virgin to the RPG genre through Dragon Age, the dialogue system for me was like a caveman seeing a modern city for the first time. As I played and learned the system I kept thinking to myself: this is absolutely awesome, my gosh what are they going to have in store for us next? And what to we get?...fizzle...sputter...fail.

I seriously don't know what these guys are thinking. It has to be a simplification for the sake of making some bean counter's quota. No one would purposely forsake such a cutting edge and fantastic idea that literally redefined gaming (imo) for an inferior and regressive thing.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:27 .

[Master Shiori]

Barbarossa.



Just out of curiousity, how did the dialogue system in ME2 work for you from the perspective that it was Commander Shepard talking and not yourself?



Not trying to compare it to the dialogue in DA:O, but rather just get your impression about dialogue delivery in ME.

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You know adneate, the dialogue system is yet another one of those things that was not only NOT broken but GREAT. So, true to form for this Dev Team, IT MUST BE FIXED at once...chaaaaaaarge!!!!!!!

As one who came in virgin to the RPG genre through Dragon Age, the dialogue system for me was like a caveman seeing a modern city for the first time. As I played and learned the system I kept thinking to myself: this is absolutely awesome, my gosh what are they going to have in store for us next? And what to we get?...fizzle...sputter...fail.

I seriously don't know what these guys are thinking. It has to be a simplification for the sake of making some bean counter's quota. No one would purposely forsake such a cutting edge and fantastic idea that literally redefined gaming (imo) for an inferior and regressive thing.

The big irony to this from my POV is that it seems to me that going the whole fully voiced PC route is actually a more expensive proposition than just keeping it all text. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that, but full VO is a pricey feature- not just money wise but it also cuts the budget in other areas, like has been brought up.

And I'll just link this article again because its perfectly sums up the Silent vs. Voiced PC debate from someone in the industry: http://soundspam.blo...ge-origins.html

[adneate]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You know adneate, the dialogue system is yet another one of those things that was not only NOT broken but GREAT. So, true to form for this Dev Team, IT MUST BE FIXED at once...chaaaaaaarge!!!!!!!

As one who came in virgin to the RPG genre through Dragon Age, the dialogue system for me was like a caveman seeing a modern city for the first time. As I played and learned the system I kept thinking to myself: this is absolutely awesome, my gosh what are they going to have in store for us next? And what to we get?...fizzle...sputter...fail.

I seriously don't know what these guys are thinking. It has to be a simplification for the sake of making some bean counter's quota. No one would purposely forsake such a cutting edge and fantastic idea that literally redefined gaming (imo) for an inferior and regressive thing.

The Ironic thing is that Mass Effect is the "modern" example and Dragon Age is the "past" example. The Dragon Age conversation system reminds me a lot of Fallout 1 and 2's talking heads. Here are a few examples of how that used to work.





I should add that Fallout 1 is one of the greatest PC games ever made, hell probably one of greatest games ever made period in any genre. More games should want to be compared to it since it's fantastic all around.

Modifié par adneate, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:59 .

[Terra_Ex]

Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You know adneate, the dialogue system is yet another one of those things that was not only NOT broken but GREAT. So, true to form for this Dev Team, IT MUST BE FIXED at once...chaaaaaaarge!!!!!!!

As one who came in virgin to the RPG genre through Dragon Age, the dialogue system for me was like a caveman seeing a modern city for the first time. As I played and learned the system I kept thinking to myself: this is absolutely awesome, my gosh what are they going to have in store for us next? And what to we get?...fizzle...sputter...fail.

I seriously don't know what these guys are thinking. It has to be a simplification for the sake of making some bean counter's quota. No one would purposely forsake such a cutting edge and fantastic idea that literally redefined gaming (imo) for an inferior and regressive thing.

The big irony to this from my POV is that it seems to me that going the whole fully voiced PC route is actually a more expensive proposition than just keeping it all text. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that, but full VO is a pricey feature- not just money wise but it also cuts the budget in other areas, like has been brought up.

And I'll just link this article again because its perfectly sums up the Silent vs. Voiced PC debate from someone in the industry: http://soundspam.blo...ge-origins.html

Yeah, I don't know why Bioware developed this fixation that full VO is the only way forward when it so clearly isn't, in fact from a developer that I would consider to be a forerunner in rpg genre its a backwards attitude solely pandering to the mass market. I know all those words hurt the heads of the plebs but seriously, what was wrong with the BG2 system - you had selected scenes that were partially voiced and you read everything else. I admit, I'm having difficulty picturing how Hawke will interact with a more complex character like Morrigan or Flemeth where you really had to be careful which line you're selected. With the new paraphrased wheel system, however tweaked it is, there's still an element of random chance to it (not to the extent of  Alpha Protocol or ME2) and I can't help but feel its a dumbing down. As Barbarossa stated, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It was troubling from the time Awakening hit that the devs seemed to be
actively seeking ways to trim the dialogue, particularly exposition from
camp sequence, which to me is quite sad to see an rpg developer caving
to the demands of "there's too much talking/text" morons you encounter
on your average forum.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Gaider and company want to pretend
that this is not the case, and that it is Thedas and the DA
universe that matters most.  Nope, sorry.  I really wouldn't want to
have to defend this new course if I were Gaider.  I personally don't
think this is the way he would personally go, but unfortunately a Board
of corporate boobs and bean counters has taken over and he does need to
stay employed, so he is making the best of a bad situation.  Truly, only
the most gushing and sycophantic of fans (or those fair weather fans
who really only want "totally awesome action, duuuude") would defend
this move. 

I couldn't agree with you more, any dev for that matter cannot state that they don't like a particular way of doing things, but yeah the "It's all about Thedas" seems to be the general cover all that supports why DA is apparently to follow the NWN model. For me, you learn about the world as a byproduct of your interactions with the characters within it, the Chantry for example would just be another generic religion without characters like Leliana that impart their own experiences upon the warden through dialogue. If you're pushing this its all about Thedas, why not make DA2 a collection of Codex entries and see how well that sells. Of course whenever Gaider or another dev brings this up, his choir of stalkers chime in to echo his words, as others have said - it is pretty creepy over there atm. There are of course different schools of thought, those that are in it for dice rolls and combat who have no qualms over ditching everything, for them the NWN approach is like crack, and those like us that come for the character development, which has been something of a bumpy ride since BG2.

[Barbarossa2010]

Master Shiori wrote...

Barbarossa.

Just out of curiousity, how did the dialogue system in ME2 work for you from the perspective that it was Commander Shepard talking and not yourself?

Not trying to compare it to the dialogue in DA:O, but rather just get your impression about dialogue delivery in ME.

You know I liked the wheel system OK from a fast paced gameplay perspective, but there really was no real threat (for example) in that you might say the wrong thing to a person based on their perspective, past, prejudices and general outlook (outside of the times when the blurb choice made you say something you really wouldn't have).  I liked that aspect of real life interjection from DA.  In ME, if you wanted to be a paragon, click upper right, if you wanted to be a renegade click lower left.  It's simple and straight forward.  The paragon/renegade interrupt was an amusing addition in ME2.  But, on the downside I found myself trying to fill a meter more than actually win someone over. 

On the voiced protagonist issue, honestly Meer's voice sort of began to drone into the background after a while and his inflection and responses became predictable and unmoving in many cases.  Some of his repsonses were just out-and-out inapproriate or sounded stiff and rehearsed in some cut scenes, and slightly took away from the scene overall.  I found myself more than once just reading subtitles as opposed to listening to him.  Many times I wanted silence to prevent interjection of unwanted things (inflection and natural-ness) into the imaginary interactive story I had going on in my head. 

Overall, it works well for Mass Effect though, because outside of very few story paths, the story is linear and I'm not looking for any depth outside of necessary lore and basic NPC interaction.  In ME, I am looking for a fantastic end game, and in that it delivers magnificently.  Mass Effect to me is sort of the perfect fusion of shooter and RPG elements, but a master of neither.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:20 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You know adneate, the dialogue system is yet another one of those things that was not only NOT broken but GREAT. So, true to form for this Dev Team, IT MUST BE FIXED at once...chaaaaaaarge!!!!!!!

As one who came in virgin to the RPG genre through Dragon Age, the dialogue system for me was like a caveman seeing a modern city for the first time. As I played and learned the system I kept thinking to myself: this is absolutely awesome, my gosh what are they going to have in store for us next? And what to we get?...fizzle...sputter...fail.

I seriously don't know what these guys are thinking. It has to be a simplification for the sake of making some bean counter's quota. No one would purposely forsake such a cutting edge and fantastic idea that literally redefined gaming (imo) for an inferior and regressive thing.

The big irony to this from my POV is that it seems to me that going the whole fully voiced PC route is actually a more expensive proposition than just keeping it all text. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that, but full VO is a pricey feature- not just money wise but it also cuts the budget in other areas, like has been brought up.

And I'll just link this article again because its perfectly sums up the Silent vs. Voiced PC debate from someone in the industry: http://soundspam.blo...ge-origins.html

Yeah, I don't know why Bioware developed this fixation that full VO is the only way forward when it so clearly isn't, in fact from a developer that I would consider to be a forerunner in rpg genre its a backwards attitude solely pandering to the mass market. I know all those words hurt the heads of the plebs but seriously, what was wrong with the BG2 system - you had selected scenes that were partially voiced and you read everything else. I admit, I'm having difficulty picturing how Hawke will interact with a more complex character like Morrigan or Flemeth where you really had to be careful which line you're selected. With the new paraphrased wheel system, however tweaked it is, there's still an element of random chance to it (not to the extent of  Alpha Protocol or ME2) and I can't help but feel its a dumbing down. As Barbarossa stated, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It was troubling from the time Awakening hit that the devs seemed to be
actively seeking ways to trim the dialogue, particularly exposition from
camp sequence, which to me is quite sad to see an rpg developer caving
to the demands of "there's too much talking/text" morons you encounter
on your average forum.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Gaider and company want to pretend
that this is not the case, and that it is Thedas and the DA
universe that matters most.  Nope, sorry.  I really wouldn't want to
have to defend this new course if I were Gaider.  I personally don't
think this is the way he would personally go, but unfortunately a Board
of corporate boobs and bean counters has taken over and he does need to
stay employed, so he is making the best of a bad situation.  Truly, only
the most gushing and sycophantic of fans (or those fair weather fans
who really only want "totally awesome action, duuuude") would defend
this move. 

I couldn't agree with you more, any dev for that matter cannot state that they don't like a particular way of doing things, but yeah the "It's all about Thedas" seems to be the general cover all that supports why DA is apparently to follow the NWN model. For me, you learn about the world as a byproduct of your interactions with the characters within it, the Chantry for example would just be another generic religion without characters like Leliana that impart their own experiences upon the warden through dialogue. If you're pushing this its all about Thedas, why not make DA2 a collection of Codex entries and see how well that sells. Of course whenever Gaider or another dev brings this up, his choir of stalkers chime in to echo his words, as others have said - it is pretty creepy over there atm. There are of course different schools of thought, those that are in it for dice rolls and combat who have no qualms over ditching everything, for them the NWN approach is like crack, and those like us that come for the character development, which has been something of a bumpy ride since BG2.

You know Terra, the more you say it, the more, I do need to play BG.  I am disappointed that they are different games for the XBOX as they are sitting on my shelf as we speak.  But, I did find the series multi-pack for PC, so I expect to play those first when I get my new PC.  I have been aimlessly wandering the Dell website and Best Buy shelves of late, so it's only a matter of time.  I suppose NWN will have to be played for perspective, but maybe later for that one.

I just don't like Thedas being a sandbox.  I mean seriously, I would never have expected this approach after playing DA:O and being drawn in so deeply to that story, my personal character and his companions.  The name "Origins" is so misleading here and is certainly not to be taken at face value.  

Setting aside the Morrigan issue, to me, sandboxing and wearing the skins of multiple characters over subsequent games is such an inferior idea to direct sequeling and personalizing a long story experience over years.  But what do I know?  I've been labelled myopic and evidently dissent is anathema to the Gaider gushfest going on at that other forum. 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:38 .

[Sidney]

adneate wrote...

Why is wanting to experince the story from my perspective silly? I assume that is the point of the game, to get personally invested in the story, the world and the characters. Also I do have a voice when I read the lines in my head that is my voice in the world.

Your second point is a mess, but it appears you shot your own argument dead in the same paragraph. You've given me 3 lines and an NPC reaction then proceeded to apply a bunch of inflections that could make them be anything you want them to be. That's pretty much why I prefer the non-voiced system in Dragon Age, since often times it doesn't enforce inflection, the lines can mean different things to different players

Lastly you are wrong again, the system you came up with makes no sense since there are no words for me to read. Since I can't read anything and as I established before reading the lines is my voice in the world, all I am doing is pushing buttons and getting totally disconnected responses from an NPC.

You really, really, really fail to understand the basic concept here. - and BTW the "you've made up your mind" strawman is sad...as if you're some open minded soul. 

The point of the game is to get invested. No doubt. You are correct to that point. The problem is you fail to understand how you invest yourself in the game. Your investment in a computer game is, necessarily, limited. You can't make a response to an NPC. You can only CHOOSE a reponse. The words are never your own until you get some sort of Vigil V.I. that can repsond to your typed or spoken input. This is why it doesn't matter if you see "No" in ME and then Shep says, "No, that's not what we will do. We don't have time for this" or "No, we have no time" in DAO. Neither the spoken Shep nor the written DAO version are your words. You've merely picked a negative reponse to an NPC. You'd be more correct if DAO had multiple versions of "No" and "Yes" answers where your motives did matter but mostly you will not have those options. You want to expeirence from your perspective but your perspective exists from the choices you make not the words.

The second point is quite simple but your repsonse makes clear you did not understand. You say "the lines can mean different things to different players " but the important thing isn't what it means to you but what it means to the NPC you are talking to. In my example, if hear in my mind "Stop fussing with me" as a bit of sweet banter like when someone tries to straighten up their lovers tie or something  that's all good and well but when I say it and the NPC responds angrily (because we can hear her tone) "Well I was just trying to be concerned" it makes your "inner voice" sadly irrelevant to the dialog. That is why it is more important to choose tone than words. You'd almost like to have a method to establish tone and then select words. The funny thing is that in ME the Elcor understand that when you can not provide emotion and tone you must declare it so your intent is clear. HK-47 has the same understanding to better effect of course.

Finally, why do you need "words to read". If you were really playing a role playing game you'd pick your responses correct? You wouldn't read them so in the best of all words reading dialog isn't what you want to do. Why wouldn't you want, with your desire to immerse and experience the story from your perspective, want to go the full 10 yards? Dialog by another human distances you from your character based on your own thoughts. Apparently only spoken dialog has this effect though because if you want to imagine your voice in the game you can do so by minimizing as much as possible the way an 3rd party intrudes upon your experience and the writers certainly impose upon quite strongly.

Sadly we both actually want the same thing - something as close to a natural human interaction as possible because that is what great role playing does. All the other stuff about shooting and looting is very secondary. The problem is that we're at a point where we can't have full real interaction so all system are some form of compromise and imperfect solutions to the problem. I don't hate the menus. I've been using them since the 80's but I understand their limits.

[Master Shiori]

Could you two stop it please?

It's obvious neither of you will change his/her mind so this argument is getting pointless and I'd rather not have a moderator use it as an exceuse to lock this topic...

Modifié par Master Shiori, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:54 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Well if they didnt lock the dwarf thread after me KoP, and Costin had that tiff yesterday I doubt this will get this thread locked.

[Brockololly]

I think the phrase is "agree to disagree."

[adneate]

Brockololly wrote...

I think the phrase is "agree to disagree."

The problem with that is we would have to be talking about the same thing and this moron can't seem to stay even remotely on topic or form a cohesive argument. However in the intereset of saving both my time and yours I'll just not post my response. Even though I really want to, had most of it written too before I saw your reactions.

[Master Shiori]

adneate wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I think the phrase is "agree to disagree."

The problem with that is we would have to be talking about the same thing and this moron can't seem to stay even remotely on topic or form a cohesive argument. However in the intereset of saving both my time and yours I'll just not post my response. Even though I really want to, had most of it written too before I saw your reactions.

Oh, it's not that we don't want to hear what you think. It's just that whatever you say isn't going to change his mind so the whole argument gets kind of pointless.

[adneate]

Master Shiori wrote...

Oh, it's not that we don't want to hear what you think. It's just that whatever you say isn't going to change his mind so the whole argument gets kind of pointless.

I guess that makes it a sacrifice for the greater good, only this time It will count. You hear that BioWare!

[Giggles_Manically]

So who exactly is being the turd muffin around here?

[blademaster7]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is the first time I skipped the rants! I don't even know what you guys are arguing about.



Damn! I'm not even in the mood to read these forums anymore...

[Brockololly]

Quett got the GI issue....check the Morrigan group...

[adneate]

Brockololly wrote...

Quett got the GI issue....check the Morrigan group...

Glee (runs to Morri group)

[Master Shiori]

That part where Flemeth shifts from dragon to human and says to Hawke: "Well, well. What have we here?" really has me thinking.

The most logical explanation would be that Flemeth normally uses that phrase when confronting uninvited visitors and Morrigan picked it up from her and used it when she encountered the Wardens.

What do you guys/gals think?

Or is there a deeper connection between Flemeth and Morrigan then just mother/daughter realtionship?

Modifié par Master Shiori, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:26 .

[Master Shiori]

On the side note:



Had a chat with Mary Kirby about dialogue in DA2 and she says it'll be as deep and complex as it was in Origins, even with the ME wheel.

[Herr Uhl]

Master Shiori wrote...

On the side note:

Had a chat with Mary Kirby about dialogue in DA2 and she says it'll be as deep and complex as it was in Origins, even with the ME wheel.

They have been saying that for a while. As well as that there will be no specific positioning for the responses like there is in ME.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Let's hope she is right.