16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Shiori]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

On the side note:

Had a chat with Mary Kirby about dialogue in DA2 and she says it'll be as deep and complex as it was in Origins, even with the ME wheel.

They have been saying that for a while. As well as that there will be no specific positioning for the responses like there is in ME.

That makes sense, since ME positioning was based around paragon/renegade "morality" and DA is more about general choices then specific attitude.

[Brockololly]

I have no doubt the dialogue will be as deep and complex, but what about volume?

[Swoo]

Who has the Bioware tracker that can show the quote about if the player was voiced, the rest of the game dialogue would have had to be cut in half?



That's a huge concern. It took me 40-45 hours to beat Origins, the ME games were like half that. I'd be really let down if the sequel is cut down in both replayability and time following the ME model.

[Sidney]

adneate wrote...

The problem with that is we would have to be talking about the same thing and this moron can't seem to stay even remotely on topic or form a cohesive argument. However in the intereset of saving both my time and yours I'll just not post my response. Even though I really want to, had most of it written too before I saw your reactions.

..and here I thought we were just passionate people having a decent argument about  game design but I see that's not the case. So sad.

[Herr Uhl]

Swoo wrote...

Who has the Bioware tracker that can show the quote about if the player was voiced, the rest of the game dialogue would have had to be cut in half?

That's a huge concern. It took me 40-45 hours to beat Origins, the ME games were like half that. I'd be really let down if the sequel is cut down in both replayability and time following the ME model.

But that was when the protagonist could be three races.

[Master Shiori]

As Herr Uhl said, the replayability came from having multiple origins, while in DA2 it will come solely from different choices, different romances and different classes and personality.



Should mean we'll still find it worthwhile to replay the game several times, just not as much as we did in Origins where the possibilities for multiple playthroughs were almost endless.

[GardenSnake]

adneate wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Oh, it's not that we don't want to hear what you think. It's just that whatever you say isn't going to change his mind so the whole argument gets kind of pointless.

I guess that makes it a sacrifice for the greater good, only this time It will count. You hear that BioWare!

Its the internet, you won't change Sidney's mind. Trust me, long arguements over youtube have taught me this, although I do agree with your POV. Lets make love not war alright?

[Brockololly]

A little more detail from the GI article: http://social.biowar...4393/10#3097550

I'm sorry guys but the words they're using to describe ME2...er.. DA2... It sounds exactly like the "changes" they made to ME2....Apparently Origins was an aging, decrepit game that needed to be "amped up." I'm willing to still see what they have to offer, but damn man, WTF Mark Darrah: 'Especially when compared to Mass Effect, this is something that prevents it from telling a really immersive story, so we're going to add player VO,' Darrah says." Group think much? Allow me to be completely myopic and melodramatic- RIP BioWare.

This is just depressing.....*sigh*

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 juillet 2010 - 12:14 .

[ximena]

Brockololly wrote...

A little more detail from the GI article: http://social.biowar...4393/10#3097550

I'm sorry guys but the words they're using to describe ME2...er.. DA2... It sounds exactly like the "changes" they made to ME2....Apparently Origins was an aging, decrepit game that needed to be "amped up." I'm willing to still see what they have to offer, but damn man, WTF Mark Darrah: 'Especially when compared to Mass Effect, this is something that prevents it from telling a really immersive story, so we're going to add player VO,' Darrah says." Group think much? Allow me to be completely myopic and melodramatic- RIP BioWare.

This is just depressing.....*sigh*

*pats Brock*

Here. Some new Morrigan art swimming around dA to cheer you up a bit. Link

[adneate]

I hear you Brock, I actually enjoyed ME2 but I didn't think every game BioWare was going to make was going to be identical to it. It is just depressing . . .

[Brockololly]

ximena wrote...

*pats Brock*

Here. Some new Morrigan art swimming around dA to cheer you up a bit. Link

WOW- thanks Ximena for that link. Holy cow, that art is amazing!

Thats the kind of visual style in DA I could fully endorse!

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

A little more detail from the GI article: http://social.biowar...4393/10#3097550

I'm sorry guys but the words they're using to describe ME2...er.. DA2... It sounds exactly like the "changes" they made to ME2....Apparently Origins was an aging, decrepit game that needed to be "amped up." I'm willing to still see what they have to offer, but damn man, WTF Mark Darrah: 'Especially when compared to Mass Effect, this is something that prevents it from telling a really immersive story, so we're going to add player VO,' Darrah says." Group think much? Allow me to be completely myopic and melodramatic- RIP BioWare.

This is just depressing.....*sigh*

Very, very depressing.  Mass Effect is unplayable for me, so that's that.  Reading the developers' disdain for their own game (DAO) is just baffling beyond belief.  It's not nostalgia for me, either, since I'm very new to video games, so the whole "spiritual successor" thing never meant anything to me.

No immersive story?!  What the HELL are they smoking up there?

Sorry to hijack-rage, but thank you for fighting the good (and obviously unwinnable) fight, Brock.  I've appreciated your comments and that blog post you linked needs to be spammed around.  Maybe if they hear it from someone in the industry, Bioware might get it.  I don't hold out any hope.  They obviously missed the big flashing neon sign.

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

Very, very depressing.  Mass Effect is unplayable for me, so that's that.  Reading the developers' disdain for their own game (DAO) is just baffling beyond belief.  It's not nostalgia for me, either, since I'm very new to video games, so the whole "spiritual successor" thing never meant anything to me.

No immersive story?!  What the HELL are they smoking up there?

Sorry to hijack-rage, but thank you for fighting the good (and obviously unwinnable) fight, Brock.  I've appreciated your comments and that blog post you linked needs to be spammed around.  Maybe if they hear it from someone in the industry, Bioware might get it.  I don't hold out any hope.  They obviously missed the big flashing neon sign.

Its just so disheartening. Especially when you go back to interviews with BioWare developers before Origins came out where they vehemently defend the first person narrative and the Silent PC as a way to have the player be more immersed in the story. I know Gaider has said the voiced PC is what works best for this particular story they're telling in DA2, but lets be honest- with the trends in the industry, the silent PC in BioWare RPGs is dead.

I'm not a big hater of EA like some people, but I honestly can't shake the feeling that the decision to use a voiced PC came from up high. You look at another EA game, Dead Space, which had a silent protagonist- its far from an RPG, but all of a sudden they're tossing in voice over work for the main character in Dead Space 2 now. I swear if Valve all of a suden gives Gordon Freeman a voice, the originality and imagination in gaming will just be gone for me. *sigh* Its just catering to the lowest common denominator now....

[adneate]

Addai67 wrote...

No immersive story?!  What the HELL are they smoking up there?

The same stuff they were smoking when they came up with the Darkspawn Chronicles.

"Hey people really like these characters what kind of DLC can we make that involves them?"

"I know you can play as the enemy and brutally slaughter your former comrades after the player dies in the joining!"

"Brillant! But I can only give you a month to make it and a couple hundred bucks so no new dialogue or new anything."

[ximena]

Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Very, very depressing.  Mass Effect is unplayable for me, so that's that.  Reading the developers' disdain for their own game (DAO) is just baffling beyond belief.  It's not nostalgia for me, either, since I'm very new to video games, so the whole "spiritual successor" thing never meant anything to me.

No immersive story?!  What the HELL are they smoking up there?

Sorry to hijack-rage, but thank you for fighting the good (and obviously unwinnable) fight, Brock.  I've appreciated your comments and that blog post you linked needs to be spammed around.  Maybe if they hear it from someone in the industry, Bioware might get it.  I don't hold out any hope.  They obviously missed the big flashing neon sign.

Its just so disheartening. Especially when you go back to interviews with BioWare developers before Origins came out where they vehemently defend the first person narrative and the Silent PC as a way to have the player be more immersed in the story. I know Gaider has said the voiced PC is what works best for this particular story they're telling in DA2, but lets be honest- with the trends in the industry, the silent PC in BioWare RPGs is dead.

I'm not a big hater of EA like some people, but I honestly can't shake the feeling that the decision to use a voiced PC came from up high. You look at another EA game, Dead Space, which had a silent protagonist- its far from an RPG, but all of a sudden they're tossing in voice over work for the main character in Dead Space 2 now. I swear if Valve all of a suden gives Gordon Freeman a voice, the originality and imagination in gaming will just be gone for me. *sigh* Its just catering to the lowest common denominator now....

I'm a little sure that the decision to make DA like this came from up high, Brock. I can feel the client-advertising agent vibe from here where the advertising agents has this totally awesome idea and then the client dumbs it down because apparently, they think they know better.

"Hey, you should make it more like that! That sold well, it will probably work well with this! :O" 

But I don't really get it. When you look at DAO as a whole and ignore all the bugs and other little broken stuff, it wasn't really that broken. It was awesome. I am still at a loss why they would revamp and "amp" it up to such an extent.

Modifié par ximena, 12 juillet 2010 - 12:55 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Thanks to all for the info links. 

I guess the only things left for me to really speculate about is what will Gaider's gotcha moment of outrage be in this one; how crappy, open-ended and unfulfilling will this ending be; who is the new group of companions I should plan on jettisoning and ignoring for DA3; and who will succeed Barbarossa and Hawke as the newerer and betterer man in the world?  Of course Hawke, being Bioware's character and all, will probably be fenced off from contrived story nonsense and out-of-character outrages, (sort of like Morrigan).

Well, I suppose the upside is that there is no need to immerse into this game whatsoever, since we won't "own" Hawke and now know the story telling methodology going forward for DA.  Of course if I ever do decide to play it myself, I'll be especially watchful of (shall we say) specific story items and ID "Gaider's Girl" early on, now having first hand experience with the DA Team's penchant for kicking straight male players in the quad at the end. 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 12 juillet 2010 - 12:57 .

[adneate]

Brockololly wrote...

I'm not a big hater of EA like some people, but I honestly can't shake the feeling that the decision to use a voiced PC came from up high.

I hate them, Westwood Studios and Bullfrog Productions. Never forget.

Edit: Should say they also took over Pandemic and drove them into the ground. I Guess BioWare is next.

Modifié par adneate, 12 juillet 2010 - 01:03 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Thanks to all for the info links. 

I guess the only things left for me to really speculate about is what will Gaider's gotcha moment of outrage be in this one; how crappy, open-ended and unfulfilling will this ending be; who is the new group of companions I should plan on jettisoning and ignoring for DA3; and who will succeed Barbarossa and Hawke as the newerer and betterer man in the world?  Of course Hawke, being Bioware's character and all, will probably be fenced off from contrived story nonsense and out-of-character outrages, (sort of like Morrigan).

Well, I suppose the upside is that there is no need to immerse into this game whatsoever, since we won't "own" Hawke and now know the story telling methodology going forward for DA.  Of course if I ever do decide to play it myself, I'll be especially watchful of (shall we say) specific story items and ID "Gaider's Girl" early on, now having first hand experience with the DA Team's penchant for kicking straight male players in the quad at the end. 

Yeah, I'm curious about the "outrage" moment myself - I can just imagine a bunch of people screaming "DAMMIT GAIDER!!!" at one point or another during their first DA2 playthrough.

I don't mind the whole concept of a new PC, but I think it was a bit too soon. If things were a bit more established, I could be a bit easier with it. What strikes me curious is the blind trust we're supposed to have with TPTB for this game. I guess it's like on one hand they expect us to know what they know even though they know we're not supposed to know what they know...

I'm still giving DA2 a chance right now, even though I have my doubts, concerns, worries, and whatnot.

[Barbarossa2010]

Addai67 wrote...

Very, very depressing.  Mass Effect is unplayable for me, so that's that.  Reading the developers' disdain for their own game (DAO) is just baffling beyond belief.  It's not nostalgia for me, either, since I'm very new to video games, so the whole "spiritual successor" thing never meant anything to me.

No immersive story?!  What the HELL are they smoking up there?

Sorry to hijack-rage, but thank you for fighting the good (and obviously unwinnable) fight, Brock.  I've appreciated your comments and that blog post you linked needs to be spammed around.  Maybe if they hear it from someone in the industry, Bioware might get it.  I don't hold out any hope.  They obviously missed the big flashing neon sign.

Yeah, that's me Addai, DA was my first RPG and there is nothing for me to base any nostalgia on.  And I'd like to second your kudos for Brock.

@Brock: Brock you've been a pillar of hopefulness throughout.  You started this (what I like to refer to as a) vigil; and it's the one place a group of loosely like-minded could get together and vent, with a bit of intellectual speculation thrown in as a bonus, without the insanity of troglodytes interjecting and spamming to no end to turn this thing into something resembling the tapestry of mental illnesses that is the Tali thread.  I can only imagine your disappointment.  I went ugly early, spent my rage up front and embraced pessimism and myopia with vigor, so I was way past acceptance long before the announcement. 

Anyway, well done and hats off.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...

The same stuff they were smoking when they came up with the Darkspawn Chronicles.

"Hey people really like these characters what kind of DLC can we make that involves them?"

"I know you can play as the enemy and brutally slaughter your former comrades after the player dies in the joining!"
"Brillant! But I can only give you a month to make it and a couple hundred bucks so no new dialogue or new anything."

Seriously....I just really have to question that the big wigs in charge of the overall direction of DA as a franchise have a clue what they're doing. If they want to make DA for the Bro crowd, they're doing a great job.  Just throw in some Move, Kinect or Wii controls too guys, we need to make it more family friendly now too.

ximena wrote...

I'm a little sure that the decision to make DA like this came from up high, Brock. I can feel the  client-advertising agent vibe from here where the advertising agents has this totally awesome idea and then the client dumbs it down because apparently, they think they know better.

"Hey, you should make it more like that! That sold well, it will probably work well with this! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]" 

But I don't really get it. When you look at DAO as a whole and ignore all the bugs and other little broken stuff, it wasn't really that broken. It  was awesome. I am still at a loss why they would revamp and "amp" it up to such an extent.

Yeah, I'll still wait to see gameplay before putting the nail in DA's coffin, but its on life support for me now. Its not just DA either, its so many games as a whole and the general stagnation of creativity and imagination in games since unless you're an indie developer you need to make your AAA games appeal to a mass audience given how costly they are to make. After the changes they made from ME1 to ME2 I was worried something like this was in the cards for DA2, its just sad to see it actually happening.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Well, I suppose the upside is that there is no need to immerse into this game whatsoever, since we won't "own" Hawke and now know the story telling methodology going forward for DA.   

Yeah, I'll just watch the cutscenes on youtube, since its just a movie now.... *facepalm*

adneate wrote..

I hate them, Westwood Studios and Bullfrog Productions. Never forget. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Edit: Should say they also took over Pandemic and drove them into the ground. I Guess BioWare is next.

Yeah... poor Westwood....and here I was thinking "Hey at least BioWare isn't with Activision!" Ahhhh well....

I'm not one to hate on a game I haven't played but I'll say this: If the changes BioWare is touting now come to fruition in making a shallower, more ME2 like game, I really really hope DA2 bombs. Apparently the $$$ is the only thing that gets through to their heads....

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 juillet 2010 - 01:14 .

[adneate]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I'll be especially watchful of (shall we say) specific story items and ID "Gaider's Girl" early on, now having first hand experience with the DA Team's penchant for kicking straight male players in the quad at the end. 

Yeah I'd avoid the "Gaider Girl" in DA2, I'll probably go with the one written by Sheryl Chee if I decide to buy this "Sequel".

Brockololly wrote...

Seriously....I just really have to question that the big wigs in charge
of the overall direction of DA as a franchise have a clue what they're
doing. If they want to make DA for the Bro crowd, they're doing a great
job.  Just throw in some Move, Kinect or Wii controls too guys, we need
to make it more family friendly now too.

Hey that's a really terrible idea, quick get a hold of EA they'll pay top dollar for crap like that!

Brockololly wrote...

Its not just DA either, its so many games as a whole and the general
stagnation of creativity and imagination in games since unless you're
an indie developer you need to make your AAA games appeal to a mass
audience given how costly they are to make. After the changes they made
from ME1 to ME2 I was worried something like this was in the cards for
DA2, its just sad to see it actually happening.

Yeah I echo the sentiment. I hope that Zenimax Media partnership thing ends up working out for all of us. It would be interesting to see a strong alternative to the typical mega-global-evil-corp publishers we normally see. Though if Bethesda puts a voiced PC in Elder Scrolls V I'll stand on a street corner with a sign saying "The end is nigh".

Brockololly wrote...

If the changes BioWare is touting now come to fruition in making a
shallower, more ME2 like game, I really really hope DA2 bombs.
Apparently the $$$ is the only thing that gets through to their
heads....

You know what the sad thing about that would be, they wouldn't get it even then. EA would probably just can the entire series and transfer the team to a new IP even more similar to Mass Effect.

[Terra_Ex]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Thanks to all for the info links. 

I guess the only things left for me to really speculate about is what will Gaider's gotcha moment of outrage be in this one; how crappy, open-ended and unfulfilling will this ending be; who is the new group of companions I should plan on jettisoning and ignoring for DA3; and who will succeed Barbarossa and Hawke as the newerer and betterer man in the world?  Of course Hawke, being Bioware's character and all, will probably be fenced off from contrived story nonsense and out-of-character outrages, (sort of like Morrigan).

Well, I suppose the upside is that there is no need to immerse into this game whatsoever, since we won't "own" Hawke and now know the story telling methodology going forward for DA.  Of course if I ever do decide to play it myself, I'll be especially watchful of (shall we say) specific story items and ID "Gaider's Girl" early on, now having first hand experience with the DA Team's penchant for kicking straight male players in the quad at the end. 

Ok, after that last comment you have to get the BG series and I'm ordering you to pursue Viconia. Then, once done, return to these forums and make make a thread titled, "ATTN: David Gaider - a much belated rant", and just take it from there. Anyway, you have got to stick around regardless as your posts are nothing short of genius.

Brockololly wrote...
I'm not a big hater of EA like some people, but I honestly can't shake the feeling that the decision to use a voiced PC came from up high. You look at another EA game, Dead Space, which had a silent protagonist- its far from an RPG, but all of a sudden they're tossing in voice over work for the main character in Dead Space 2 now. I swear if Valve all of a suden gives Gordon Freeman a voice, the originality and imagination in gaming will just be gone for me. *sigh* Its just catering to the lowest common denominator now....[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

I too suspect EA's hand at work, my list of grievances against EA is lengthy and stretches back to the mega drive/genesis era. On DeadSpace 2 - so Isaac is to be voiced now as well... as you say, we've got to
mainstream everything. Valve may actually turn out to be something of a saviour for games since they have Steam and allow devs to publish thorugh that without the same bs you'd get with a traditional publisher.

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, I'll still wait to see gameplay before putting the nail in DA's coffin, but its on life support for me
now. Its not just DA either, its so many games as a whole and the general stagnation of creativity and imagination in games since unless you're an indie developer you need to make your AAA games appeal to a
mass audience given how costly they are to make. After the changes they made from ME1 to ME2 I was worried something like this was in the cards for DA2, its just sad to see it actually happening.

I'm not one to hate on a game I haven't played but I'll say this: If the changes BioWare is touting now come to fruition in making a shallower, more ME2 like game, I really really hope DA2 bombs. Apparently the $$$ is the
only thing that gets through to their heads....[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

Yeah, its as I've said before, DA2 is the game that will decide whether I'm interested in sticking with the series. a
promising start has been followed up by several decisions that remind me of NWN more than BG. 

Regarding DA2 bombing (not that it'll happen) all that'd happen then is EA would kill it forever more, so
you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Side note, since I can't be bothered to scan through pages of info and haven't read through all of Quett's posts yet, have we discovered who the "cover girl" is on the DA 2 art yet? I'm also gathering via Laidlaw's comments that the Morri plot thread (and morri herself) is to be dragged on through DA2 for Hawke to deal with (and likely milked till its dry for the foreseeable future)?

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 12 juillet 2010 - 02:06 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Since I've been playing Oblivion, I think I might be becoming a fan of Bethesda. I really am enjoying the s#i+ out of this game. I also went through the intro for Fallout 3 and tromped on into Megaton for a few forays, and am really liking what I'm seeing there to. Can't wait to finish Oblivion/Shivering Isles/Knights of the Nine and pick up FO3 again. Perhaps my loyalty is better placed with Bethesda.

In full disclosure though, Bioware at least has my loyalty for Mass Effect. That's one franchise that knew what it was early on and delivers big time in end game. Not to mention, they tend to have their listening ears on with their fan base, best I can tell. The DA Team seems haughty, defensive and arrogant by comparison. Perhaps it is as I suspect and EA empty suits are cornering the market on bad ideas for this Team; either way, too bad.

BTW, when I glimpsed at Hawke's promo art, he looked an awful lot like Marcus Fenix (and yes I do like GOW, but know full well the targeted audience) at first glance. Sadly, it is becoming very clear that I fell out of the targeted demographic for DA well before I couldreally even get on board.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 12 juillet 2010 - 02:15 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Side note, since I can't be bothered to scan through pages of info and haven't read through all of Quett's posts yet, have we discovered who the "cover girl" is on the DA 2 art yet? I'm also gathering via Laidlaw's comments that the Morri plot thread (and morri herself) is to be dragged on through DA2 for Hawke to deal with (and likely milked till its dry for the foreseeable future)?

If it is, I'm starting to wonder how likely it's going to end up being a big t('.'t) to Warden*Morrigan. As I mentioned, there's a few ways where it could be played out to have a respectable outcome or ending, but I keep thinking that that isn't going to happen, especially if this is going to be tailored to what you've labeled as the "Bros" crowd. They'll probably reinvent Morrigan just for them. Then again, Morrigan isn't our character anyways, so who am I to say anything about it...

[adneate]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Since I've been playing Oblivion, I think I might be becoming a fan of Bethesda. I really am enjoying the s#i+ out of this game. I also went through the intro for Fallout 3 and tromped on into Megaton for a few forays, and am really liking what I'm seeing there to. Can't wait to finish Oblivion/Shivering Isles/Knights of the Nine and pick up FO3 again. Perhaps my loyalty is better placed with Bethesda.

I don't think you owe any loyalty to any company, ever. However I like Bethesda, they aren't the storytellers that BioWare are but they know how to make a world to totally suck you in for hours and hours at a time. Oblivion is over 4 years old and with mods it still holds up pretty well. They clearly know what they are good at and what they need to impove and I'd love to see something new from them, Elder Scrolls 5 maybe? Bethesda is also in an interesting position since they pretty much make and publish their own mega-hits and have no publisher that out right owns them. Plus I can pretty much assure you that they'll never make an RPG with a fully voiced PC. I sorta want to reinstall Oblivion and get all the super-high res mods and spec a Bard, maybe a redheaded Breton with blue eyes.