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THE Morrigan Discussion and Research Thread *Infested with Bugs Yet Again!*


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#5301
Swoo

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Addai67 wrote...
You don't want to talk about alien sex?  Sometimes you disappoint me, Axe.  ^_^

From the DA forum, here is an interesting interview with a muckety muck that I had never seen before.
"This morning I did tell developers that he goal of doing triple-A
for consoles is a bad idea right now."

...sooo, they're going to do it anyway??


I can only speak for myself personally, but I am having trouble blindly accepting so many of these changes that seems to be the attitude du jour in the DA2 forums because they went on record before and during Origins why these very same changes were a bad idea. No matter how genuine they may be it just comes off as a one side of the mouth doesn't know what the other is saying to me.

#5302
MKDAWUSS

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p2sp

#5303
GardenSnake

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Brockololly wrote...

I'm not thrilled with what I've seen thus far with DA2, but I will say this: every BioWare game in which Gaider has written in, I've really enjoyed. I can't say the same for JE or ME1 & ME2. I enjoyed JE, ME1 and ME2 but especially in the ME games the writing at times is straight up bad.

So yeah, for all the crap DA2 is (rightfully) getting right now, I'm willing to give it a chance. I'm not crazy about many of the choices to seemingly simplify everything, but I'll wait and see before I give up on DA altogether.

An solid ToB style expack with the Warden and Morrigan would certainly help get me interested again though...


Agreed, but like andeate I was bitter the first few days and really couldn't care less about what Bioware did with the franchise. I trust them to make a great game, they always do. I haven't got a chance to play their pc stuff yet, but all of their console stuff (especially on the original xbox) is always a joy to replay and I'll never get tired of it.

I'm starting to see that wanting DA3 to be dedicated as another one of the Warden's stories is a really big stretch seeing as the fact that the devs keep stressing the fact that DA is about Thedas, but they can't stop me from dreaming. A substantial expansion that ISN'T like Awakening would satisfy me though.

I went back to my second playthrough of ME2 today and I can honestly say that re playing the game just isn't the same as it is in Origins. The voiced pc and lack of origins really hinders any motivation to see what I missed the first time around. Although I wasn't too upset about their being no origins in DA2, I was actually expecting it.

And about what you mentioned above with Morrigan looking like an S&M chick......Posted Image To quote Michael Scott," NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO, GOD NNNNNOOOOOO!!! PLEASE GOD NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!" Now I really don't want to see anyone from Origins, imagine what Leliana would look like. Wait no, lets not......Posted Image

#5304
Terra_Ex

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Brockololly wrote...

"Well, how about this Mr. Barbarossa-  how about we make Dragon Age 2 a family friendly Kinetic/ Wii dancing game! Get into a dance off with Sten, Morrigan, Duncan and the whole gang! But watch out! The Archdemon is back and he is bringing the funk- be careful or you'll get served! I mean those newfangled motion controls are just so darn neato!  When you look like this guy using the Kinect, how can you not be having fun!?"

heh, I'd buy it :)


Brockololly wrote...
*clears throat* Ahem... Now back to Morrigan speculation...

In this thread, Gaider recently posted this in response to people saying how the Wardens who did the DR and "vanish" at the end of Awakening got a crap ending and should have returned in DA2 (bolded stuff is my emphasis):

David Gaider wrote...

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.


And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely to get. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.


Unless BioWare doesn't want to make gobs of money,  they have something with the Warden and Morrigan brewing. They can't be that dense can they?

I dunno, as with most things DA it could go either way, the logical course of action to make quick £/$ is to provide something for that crowd and close off that plot thread. On the other hand, if Laidlaw's recent comments are implying that Morrigan is back for DA2 then that puts a dampner on that theory.

The main "plot" of DA was highly generic. Its the character nuances that people are interested in - the death sentence on our warden goes unexplored, ramifications of OGB are possibly to be dealt with by another, the morrigan subplot and character development - these are the things you get attached to and invest in as a player, the recycled "Oh no, its a big scary dragon accompanied by a horde of mindless drones" - yep, we're not interested in that. In most games the player should be feeling empowered at the end of the game, the DR & "I don't want to tell you" rationale do the opposite - leaving the player with new questions - the experience feels incomplete due to the non-resolution of that little revelation. But its up to BioWare to decide the course of DA, not us, plenty of other games to play in the meantime.

#5305
MKDAWUSS

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Well, we can always hope it's this:

Posted Image

#5306
Swoo

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GardenSnake wrote...
I went back to my second playthrough of ME2 today and I can honestly say that re playing the game just isn't the same as it is in Origins. The voiced pc and lack of origins really hinders any motivation to see what I missed the first time around. Although I wasn't too upset about their being no origins in DA2, I was actually expecting it.

And about what you mentioned above with Morrigan looking like an S&M chick......Posted Image To quote Michael Scott," NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO, GOD NNNNNOOOOOO!!! PLEASE GOD NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!" Now I really don't want to see anyone from Origins, imagine what Leliana would look like. Wait no, lets not......Posted Image


Mass Effect just really has no true replayability past Paragon runs and Renegade runs. Sure, some people have done twenty plus Mass Effect runs, but I know people who have played single-player shooters just as much if not more.  You saw ran Origins so many times because you had so many variations in the game that a Dwarf Noble sword and board fighter felt and played out completely different than a Human Noble sword and board fighter, even if they were mechanically the same. I would expect Hawke to fall into this same ME trap, you will have a 'Good' run, a 'Bad' run, and then maybe you screw around and try the other classes. A downside with having such a defined character is that even though the developers are able to clearly and strongly lead him from Point A to Point C, as a player Point B is a lot smaller than something in a game like Origins.

If Morrigan shows up in the game I honestly expect her to look like she was designed by Todd McFarlane. Leather, spikes, chains, little frayed badassitude going on, what have you.

#5307
GardenSnake

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Swoo wrote...

GardenSnake wrote...
I went back to my second playthrough of ME2 today and I can honestly say that re playing the game just isn't the same as it is in Origins. The voiced pc and lack of origins really hinders any motivation to see what I missed the first time around. Although I wasn't too upset about their being no origins in DA2, I was actually expecting it.

And about what you mentioned above with Morrigan looking like an S&M chick......Posted Image To quote Michael Scott," NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO, GOD NNNNNOOOOOO!!! PLEASE GOD NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!" Now I really don't want to see anyone from Origins, imagine what Leliana would look like. Wait no, lets not......Posted Image



If Morrigan shows up in the game I honestly expect her to look like she was designed by Todd McFarlane. Leather, spikes, chains, little frayed badassitude going on, what have you.

And Sten's going to look like he belongs in a WWE match. YAY Posted Image

#5308
Brockololly

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Terra_Ex wrote...

I dunno, as with most things DA it could go either way, the logical course of action to make quick £/$ is to provide something for that crowd and close off that plot thread. On the other hand, if Laidlaw's recent comments are implying that Morrigan is back for DA2 then that puts a dampner on that theory.


It seems clear Morrigan has more story left- whether thats in an expack leading into DA2, DA2 itself or DA3 and beyond, its not entirely clear. How the Warden fits in is another question. I think BioWare is going to try and milk Morrigan's story as long as possible, but if they do that you need to bring back any DR Wardens eventually, I'd think.

Terra_Ex wrote...
The main "plot" of DA was highly generic. Its the character nuances that people are interested in - the death sentence on our warden goes unexplored, ramifications of OGB are possibly to be dealt with by another, the morrigan subplot and character development - these are the things you get attached to and invest in as a player, the recycled "Oh no, its a big scary dragon accompanied by a horde of mindless drones" - yep, we're not interested in that. In most games the player should be feeling empowered at the end of the game, the DR & "I don't want to tell you" rationale do the opposite - leaving the player with new questions - the experience feels incomplete due to the non-resolution of that little revelation. But its up to BioWare to decide the course of DA, not us, plenty of other games to play in the meantime.


Perfectly put. One of the major criticisms of Origins from many reviews was that the whole Blight plot wasn't terribly original or compelling. It was the characters that made the game interesting and the story come alive. And it seems the direction BioWare is taking now is that the characters don't matter, its all about the big events/choices and how they impact Thedas.

Yet even if its all about big events in Thedas, we should still have the DR Warden and Morrigan back. The DR is a huge world changing event- a Warden stopped a Blight with no one dying and in the process created a baby with the soul of an Old God with a mysterious shapeshifting apostate. If thats not a important story worth exploring further, I don't know what is. If DA is all about  player choice and consequences, what better cause and effect is there than the Dark Ritual? The whole point is that your Warden lives on, yet whats the point if Morrigan just pops up later  only to have some other hero like Hawke have to deal with the consequences?

The DR is the beginning to a new story, not an ending.

#5309
Addai

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Swoo wrote...

Mass Effect just really has no true replayability past Paragon runs and Renegade runs. Sure, some people have done twenty plus Mass Effect runs, but I know people who have played single-player shooters just as much if not more.


ME players insist that it has replayability despite the voiced PC, but since it never had playability for me in the first place...

#5310
adneate

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Brockololly wrote...
Unless BioWare doesn't want to make gobs of money,  they have something
with the Warden and Morrigan brewing. They can't be that dense can they?


Money? Who needs money sir we'll print our own money it'll say "In God We . . ."

Swoo wrote...

Mass Effect just really has no true replayability past Paragon runs
and Renegade runs. Sure, some people have done twenty plus Mass Effect
runs, but I know people who have played single-player shooters just as
much if not more.


Mass Effect 1 is terrible for this since each class is just a certain combination of talents from the big pool of talents. ME2 is a bit better since each class at least has a unique power like a Vanguard's Biotic Charge or an Infiltrator's Tactical Cloak. Hell it has even less replayability for me since I can't stand a pure Paragon run and only do shades of Renegade. It stinks that DA2 is following this route.

#5311
Brockololly

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adneate wrote...

Mass Effect 1 is terrible for this since each class is just a certain combination of talents from the big pool of talents. ME2 is a bit better since each class at least has a unique power like a Vanguard's Biotic Charge or an Infiltrator's Tactical Cloak. Hell it has even less replayability for me since I can't stand a pure Paragon run and only do shades of Renegade. It stinks that DA2 is following this route.


To be fair, we know that there won't be any stupid paragon/renegade morality meter in DA2. Or so they say...

One of my problems with the dumbing down of DA2 is that the mechanics of the game basically forec you into an extreme renegade or extreme paragon otherwise you end up in the middle and can never access the higher level paragon/renegade options. That alway bothered me.

I'm wondering if DA2 will still have the cunning, intimidation, persuade type conversation options and how they'll work with the dialogue wheel...

#5312
Swoo

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Brockololly wrote...

I'm wondering if DA2 will still have the cunning, intimidation, persuade type conversation options and how they'll work with the dialogue wheel...


I just wonder if they will actually be in the game this time. Origins dialogue 'options' basically were Jedi handwaves. 'Blah blah blah.', 'Do what I say', 'Ok'. Exposing the Cultist in the Brother's house in Denerim is how all of them should have gone.

I don't fear the Mass Effect dialogue wheel in Dragon Age really simply because they don't have a defined morality meter. Instead of 1-2-3-4-5 you now have star-triangle-square-x; It just looks slicker is all.

#5313
phaonica

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Brockololly wrote...

I'm wondering if DA2 will still have the cunning, intimidation, persuade type conversation options and how they'll work with the dialogue wheel...


Do you all like those skills to be written right on the screen like that? I didn't like how those options practially yelled "pick me, I'm the right answer!'

#5314
Jacks Smirking Revenge

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Yeah I didn't like how they added (Cunning) or whatever outside some choices took a bit of RP out of it for me. I would like those options to be in, but kind of in a more subtle way like how Swoo mentioned. How many would of intimidated/persuaded that child in Redcliffe(Bevin) for his sword if it didn't have the persuasion flag by it? I certainly wouldn't of; I say more risk/reward to the daring in their dialogue choices don't dumb it down by giving us these clues for persuasion checks.



What do you guys think of Bethany? I'm getting eerie Fable vibes now; you have a sister who is a (mage) helping you out reminds me of Thresea? Decade time frame? rags to riches? ominous character who could possibly turn into a dragon(Jack)? Albion/Free Marches are city states? Oakvale/Lothering destroyed by evil flee to greener pastures?(This one is speculation but..) Flemeth taking the role of Maze and possibly saving Hawke/Hero?



Maybe I'm more crazy than I thought I am who knows, but that is kind of eerie to me.

#5315
Lara Denton

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Brockololly wrote...

Perfectly put. One of the major criticisms of Origins from many reviews was that the whole Blight plot wasn't terribly original or compelling. It was the characters that made the game interesting and the story come alive. And it seems the direction BioWare is taking now is that the characters don't matter, its all about the big events/choices and how they impact Thedas.

Here's what DG said about the plot of DA2. (Sorry if I'm late to the party and it's not something new. :) )

#5316
Brockololly

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laradenton wrote...
Here's what DG said about the plot of DA2. (Sorry if I'm late to the party and it's not something new. :) )


Yeah, I saw that- should be interesting to see how it unfolds since it seems to be breaking from the BioWare plot conventions of being inducted into a secret order and being the chosen one to stop some disaster/evil of epic proportions.

Should be interesting stuff, I just hope the whole thing doesn't end up too linear gameplay wise given the narrative structure. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it will work- I think in one of the GI articles MArk Darrah said its kind of like The Usual Suspects in how its told through flashbacks. I'm also thinking of The Prestige too maybe.

Have the game start with the Chantry SeekerCassandra in present time (10 years post Origins?) meet up with that Varric the dwarf trying to uncover more about Hawke. Then Varric narrates the first chapter in Hawke's escape from Lothering. Then once thats done, it skips back to present day again and maybe follows Cassandra as she travels across Thedas learning more about Hawke, until eventually the flashbacks catch up to present day and that will probably be close to the end of the game.

I'm wondering how travel and exploration will work though- My main concern is that each flashback is limited to one area and we end up with goofy "mission complete" screens like they threw in ME2.

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:15 .


#5317
Shade of Wolf

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Wow have't been on in weeks! Now all of sudden there's DA2? I'm not especially fond of the idea of (what's his name; Hawke?) being fully voiced, it sort of takes the whole 'Role-Playing' out of the equation.

#5318
Addai

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Shade of Wolf wrote...

Wow have't been on in weeks! Now all of sudden there's DA2? I'm not especially fond of the idea of (what's his name; Hawke?) being fully voiced, it sort of takes the whole 'Role-Playing' out of the equation.

That would be MKE HAWKE!

Said in the tone and style of STEVE HOLT!

Posted Image

But don't tell the ME fanboys in the DA2 forum that you can't roleplay with a voiced PC.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:22 .


#5319
SurelyForth

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Addai67 wrote...


That would be MKE HAWKE!

Said in the tone and style of STEVE HOLT!


OMG I love you.  You just increased my anticipation for this game tenfold, because now I can make a stupid but kind-hearted jock Hawke and imagine him STEVE HOLT!ing all over Thedas.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:08 .


#5320
Brockololly

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SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


That would be MKE HAWKE!

Said in the tone and style of STEVE HOLT!


OMG I love you.  You just increased my anticipation for this game tenfold, because now I can make a stupid but kind-hearted jock Hawke and imagine him STEVE HOLT!ing all over Thedas.


YES!!! Maybe they can have Will Arnett voice male Hawke- I'll have to make Hawke a mage now of course.. a mage named GOB

#5321
Addai

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Brockololly wrote...

YES!!! Maybe they can have Will Arnett voice male Hawke- I'll have to make Hawke a mage now of course.. a mage named GOB


*dies*

If I play this game, my first mage is definitely going to be named Gob Hawke.

And I'm going to imagine everyone mispronouncing his name.

#5322
SurelyForth

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Brockololly wrote...

YES!!! Maybe they can have Will Arnett voice male Hawke- I'll have to make Hawke a mage now of course.. a mage named GOB


I am ashamed I did not think of that first.

Of course, he can only have very low-level spells and he'll spend most of his time trying to f*ck inappropriate women.

#5323
Brockololly

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SurelyForth wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

YES!!! Maybe they can have Will Arnett voice male Hawke- I'll have to make Hawke a mage now of course.. a mage named GOB


I am ashamed I did not think of that first.

Of course, he can only have very low-level spells and he'll spend most of his time trying to f*ck inappropriate women.


And forget horses! GOB Hawke will need a segway and his master spell will be to myseriously spill lighter fluid on darkspawn! :wizard:

#5324
Brockololly

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Interesting interview with Zeschuk where he talks abit about Dragon Age 2 and the changes (DA2 stuff on pages 2 and 3): http://www.eurogamer...nterview?page=2

Eurogamer: You revealed Dragon Age 2 recently. The art style has changed and you now play a pre-determined hero. Why have you decided to make those changes?

Dr. Greg Zeschuk: It's a weird way to say it, but part of it's the passion of the team. The art style example is an interesting one. We changed art directors. The art director on Dragon Age 2 is the same guy who was the art director on Jade Empire. He worked somewhere else for a while then he came back. He's a fan of our stuff, but he also has his own ideas on how to take it.

There was some commentary that Dragon Age could have been more visually unique. We said, 'Okay! You want visually unique? Here's visually unique.' It's usually a combination of things that drives our decision-making. It's not like we're designed by committee. Nor are we beholden to fan and press feedback. But we really do look at all that stuff.

We like changing it up. We like challenging the players. We're not the kind of group that wants to deliver the same thing over and over. What tends to happen on that is you get two or three iterations and then you're dead. The interest is lost. In some ways it's keeping it fresh and challenging the player.

We had a lot of commentary on Mass 1 to Mass 2. Mass 1 to Mass 2 is a radical shift. We just felt it would make a better game. That's largely what we're thinking in terms of the Dragon Age 2 stuff. And then we'll see what people think of it and then do something different again probably.

It's almost like a twist on what Square does. Square keeps the gameplay largely the same but everything else changes. We, in a sense, are going to keep the world the same, but we'll change the gameplay around. But in a smart, careful way. People will be pretty happy with what we're doing with gameplay, largely.

You can't please everyone. But we're largely trying to make sure we've got something that stands out and is competitive. The team is really excited about it. They're the biggest fans of the game that there are. Some of the fans out there are pretty huge, but they're big fans as well.

Eurogamer: People are saying, 'I loved Dragon Age. Why are you changing it?' It must be a difficult balancing act to keep the fans happy while implementing the changes you want to.

Dr. Greg Zeschuk: Yeah. We're careful about it. Sometimes we'll do stuff for effect. You go back to Dragon Age 1, everybody was freaked out about that one trailer with the Marilyn Manson music. They were like, 'ah!' It was another facet of the game.

The interesting thing about doing PR is there is no way at this essentially early moment we can reveal everything. We can't show all the facets. Say we show one facet, and everyone freaks out. Then we show another piece, and they say, 'Oh, well, I'm okay now.' When you play it, you get a sense of what the gameplay is like. You go, 'oh, okay, it all fits together'.

From a PR perspective, just people talking about something is a good thing. They'll give it a look regardless. You'll see when we show all the elements, people will go, 'oh, okay'. They'll probably be less freaked out.

Eurogamer: Some people are saying you're turning Dragon Age into Mass Effect?

Dr. Greg Zeschuk: It's different. It's not quite going that way. You could make that case based on what we've shown. It's like looking at the game through a keyhole. You go, 'oh, well that's all there is'. Well, there's a lot more than that. But that's what we're showing right now.


So yeah.... the little Square Enix name dropping is rather damning in my book. So basically, each DA game will be totally different gameplay and character wise the only thing tying them together will be Thedas. DA3: Dance Off here we come!!:o  And the little bit on how DA2 is "not quite" going the ME way....ugh... I understand the want to change things up in sequels, but I just want some damn consistency- which seems like they're ditching in the name of change. *sigh*

Honestly I never thought the art direction in DAO was that bad- it was the crummy technology of the engine which failed to adequately translate the art to the game. And based on the screens, it still looks like th technology is subpar. The only thing changing the visual style will do if the engine still blows is that it just introduces inconsistency between the games and to me thats really annoying.

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:20 .


#5325
MoSa09

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Brockololly wrote...
here we come!!:o I understand the want to change things up in sequels, but I just want some damn consistency- which seems like they're ditching in the name of change. *sigh*


maybe change is the only contigency you get?

Anyhow, better they also ditch Hawke than after ditching the Warden and his story, they suddenly settle all for contigency, that would just make me disppointed that they couldn't get that idea one game earlier.

And maybe they develop a truly epic story that in the end after spanning several games, will tie all the loose ends together in one great final, where all heroes of the previous games will finally meet to solve the riddle, deal with the big enemy and tie up all ends once and for all