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[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Apropos Flemeth, did you ever think about the fact that your PC was unconscious and completely in her power for maybe up to a few weeks?

Does that idea weird anyone else out? 

You mean get herself impregnated?

Actually, that would have been practical, she would not have needed Morrigan to do the ritual and get the OGB.
And if the PC is a female, then there is always Alistair.

Or perhaps the Dark Ritual can only be done shortly before the battle.

[Master Shiori]

[quote]MoSa09 wrote...



Yeah, how Flemeth and Morrigan tie together really is the one reason I'm probably going to give DA2 a shot. They've done a good job keeping that story interesting. With Flemeth's ability to see into the future, I'm more and more thinking she is just the puppet master and we're just playing into her hand. Whether MOrrigan is really siding with Flemeth somehow, I don't know.

What I'm thinking is that maybe originally Flemeth intended to take over Morrigan and somehow use the OGB to augment her own power. Yet maybe Morrigan wants to do the DR, to sort of achieve the power Flemeth has, but maybe without becoming an abomination thing? I don't know- its freakin' magic, the writers can take it anyway they really want and we wouldn't have a clue.


[/quote]

With Flemeth, it's hard to tell. Almost everything seems to be possible: exactly as Morrigan told us how it is up to it turns out nothing she told us was true. There are so many open plots regarding Flemeth:

1. Maric and his favor
2. Flemeth dragon form.
3. Morrigan
4. other daughters
5. the nature of Flemeth herself
6. OGB
7. why did she help us
8. Grimoire

and i am certain i forgot most of it. The interplay when some of these things get revealed could change anything we beleive we know about DA, Thedas and Morrigan. And this really gets me hooked and curious...

[/quote]

What makes Morrigan such a great character is that we have no proof for anything she says about herself, Flemeth, grimoires, OGB, etc. It all comes down to whether we choose to believe her or not.
This means the writers can easily change things and later say what we learned in Origins was a lie.

In a way, choosing to protect Morrigan and accepting her offer leaves us hoping things will turn out the way she says and that our trust in her will be justified.

Morrigan herself obviously places high value on power and survival, but I don't have a feeling she'd go to any length to achieve it. She doesn't want to make deals with demons, as proven by her conversation with the desire demon in the Fade. Therefore, I don't believe she wants to be exactly like Flemeth.
The problem here is that we don't know how much power is enough for Morrigan or what kind of power (she obviously has no problem with resorting to blood magic, but doesn't try controlling minds or causing havoc with it) she wants (magic, immortality or something else).

Considering what we know of the threatment of mages and magic in Thedas (prticularly in areas under the influence of the Chantry) it would seem logical that she wants the OGB as a tool of breaking the Chantry's control so that she, as a apostate, can finally be free to live her life without constantly being in danger of prosecution or hatred from common folks.
This is where Kirkwall is interesting. According to the newest GI info it would appear that Kirkwall is home to some knd of special templar order, one that is even more extreme than our usual templars. Cassandra, the woman shown on the concept art, is a member of that order and is apparently after Hawke for some reason (association with Flemeth, his sister being a possible apostate or even Hawke himself being one).
It might be Flemeth plans to use Hawke's rise to power in Kirkwall and the rest of Free Marches to break Chantry's control there and probably start a similar series of events in other countries.

Whatever is going to happen in DA2 is bound to be really interesting. Personally, I can't wait to hear more info and finally play the game itself once it's out.

[Brockololly]

All this Flemeth talk has me wondering.... some random Flemeth related thoughts:

- After reading her entry in the official DA wiki, Flemeth reminds me very much of Clay Face from Batman. I guess I realized she was a trickster and master shapeshifter but I didn't think she was able to shift so quickly between human forms.

Which has me wondering if she pulled off any Clay Face like shenanigans in Origins and we didn't know it? Like impersonating someone without the Warden realizing it?

- Just how important is it to Flemeth to be able to have a "new" body? If she can shape change into a hottie at the snap of her fingers, why is it so important that she steal a new body? I believe Morrigan says Flemeth will  need a new body  soon
or else she'll just be a deaf, dumb husk in no time. Is that really true
or was Flemeth playing Morrigan?

- Is Flemeth's "true" form even that of a human?- Mary Kirby kind of answered this question when someone else asked it and she said to be confident of nothing with respect to Flemeth.

- Morrigan mentions seeing Flemeth as a beautiful woman with dark hair when she was young. Was Flemeth just shapeshifting then or does her outward "default" human appearance become affected by her use of magic?  Kind of like in Neil Gaiman's Stardust, where whenever the witches use  magic, they become uglier and basically age more rapidly as it takes a toll on their body? This might make sense as blood magic does take a toll on one's life force, right?

Then you've got this quote from Laidlaw in the GI article:

" I think Dragon Age, if its about anything, is about human weakness - the inability to see the larger threat. Honestly, thats where your choices come from."

Besides the fact that sounds like the setup for one big "gotcha!" moment, could that refer to taking Morrigan up on the DR or even Maric making some sort of "promise" to Flemeth in The Stolen Throne? Add to that Mary Kirby's little comment on Flemeth:

Mary Kirby wrote..

She's a
thousand-year-old abomination, a shapeshifter who, according to legend
(and according to the grimoire you give Morrigan) seduces mortal men in
order to get herself more daughters. Her daughters are reputed to be
able to kill men with fear.  She's both a seductress and a hag.
She played up the hag aspect for the Warden, "Oh, never mind me, I'm
just a crazy old bat who saved your life! Go on your quest and take my
daughter with you! I'm sure nothing terrible could come from
that..."  But just because the Warden only saw her as the hag, doesn't
mean that's all she was...

That bolded part makes me think BioWare has sinister plans in store for the DR.....<_<

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 juillet 2010 - 08:54 .

[Kryyptehk]

Brockololly wrote...

All this Flemeth talk has me wondering.... some random Flemeth related thoughts:

- After reading her entry in the official DA wiki, Flemeth reminds me very much of Clay Face from Batman. I guess I realized she was a trickster and master shapeshifter but I didn't think she was able to shift so quickly between human forms.

Which has me wondering if she pulled off any Clay Face like shenanigans in Origins and we didn't know it? Like impersonating someone without the Warden realizing it?

- Just how important is it to Flemeth to be able to have a "new" body? If she can shape change into a hottie at the snap of her fingers, why is it so important that she steal a new body? I believe Morrigan says Flemeth will  need a new body  soon
or else she'll just be a deaf, dumb husk in no time. Is that really true
or was Flemeth playing Morrigan?

- Is Flemeth's "true" form even that of a human?- Mary Kirby kind of answered this question when someone else asked it and she said to be confident of nothing with respect to Flemeth.

- Morrigan mentions seeing Flemeth as a beautiful woman with dark hair when she was young. Was Flemeth just shapeshifting then or does her outward "default" human appearance become affected by her use of magic?  Kind of like in Neil Gaiman's Stardust, where whenever the witches use  magic, they become uglier and basically age more rapidly as it takes a toll on their body? This might make sense as blood magic does take a toll on one's life force, right?

I believe Morrigan said something about shapeshifters not being able to shapeshift into other humans and I believe her when she says that.

[Brockololly]

Kryyptehk wrote..

I believe Morrigan said something about shapeshifters not being able to shapeshift into other humans and I believe her when she says that.

I think Morrigan said that she couldn't shapeshift into another human form- Flemeth on the other hand is no ordinary shapeshifter.

Take a look at this story about Flemeth where she takes the form of  a young woman, a mother, an old village elder and then a exotic and dark young beauty. Thats the official BioWare wiki too. Of course that could be a rubbish story like so much of the codex stuff, but given what Mary Kirby said earlier about how Flemeth is both a seductress and a hag, there is way more going on than meets the eye...

[Shade of Wolf]

MoSa09 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

See, I'm still wondering though- in the concept art, while looking kind of hotter, Flemeth still looks old. And based on Gaider's comments, she looks old in the game too. My question is whether or not her whole metal spikey tiara, dragon horn white hair, armor and generally sexier looking outfit is just the redesign of Flemeth for DA2 or is there some sort of in game explanation for the way she looks? I mean, if Origins was done in the same visual style as DA2, when we met Flemeth would she look the way she does in DA2? Is the DA2 design a visual retcon?

Okay, here is another thought. We already talked about that maybe DA 2 forces you to side with either Morrigan or Flemeth. What if that decision ultimately implies that Flemeth is in need of another body, and helping her out in the end would mean handing out Morrigan to be possessed. Maybe Flemeth threatening "you get me Morrigan so i might survive or if you refuse i am gonna take Bethany, your sister, instead"

But does Flemeth have to take a mage? Or a even a female? I mean if she was desperate she knows where she can find an Alistair.

[Shade of Wolf]

ximena wrote...

If Hawke is really a Flemeth-spawn and Morri's long lost brother, then that would indeed pose a conflict for Hawke. But then, is Morrigan really Flemeth's biological daughter? We aren't entirely sure. If this does come into play, what MosA said is important. It's still up to the writers how to make such a choice heavy for Hawke.




Also, I cannot resist.

"Haaaaawke, I am your mooootherrrr." - Flemeth

Hmmm...amusing and possibly accurate

[MKDAWUSS]

Brockololly wrote...

That bolded part makes me think BioWare has sinister plans in store for the DR.....<_<

Because any Warden-Morrigan romance needs yet another "up yours" added to it...

I know it's (romance) over, but how many disasterous developments does that (and its aftermath) need?

[adneate]

Shade of Wolf wrote...

But does Flemeth have to take a mage? Or a even a female? I mean if she was desperate she knows where she can find an Alistair.

That is an odd mental image to say the least. It seems the Flemeth doesn't have to take a mage but prehaps a body already capable of practicing magic makes a better host, though exactly how magic functions in Dragon Age isn't 100% clear it appears to be an ability you are born with for the most, but then there are the Templars who can sorta do magic but aren't mages at all. In Origins we see Tranquil being "possessed" by demons which I thought was impossible since they have no connection to the fade so maybe Flemeth's "soul" could just take anyone and she could start casting magic right then and there?

[Shade of Wolf]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

That bolded part makes me think BioWare has sinister plans in store for the DR.....<_<

Because any Warden-Morrigan romance needs yet another "up yours" added to it...

I know it's (romance) over, but how many disasterous developments does that (and its aftermath) need?

No the Romance will never die! Even if Morri has been using the Warden, I mean there was the option to be evil in the game, why not go with it? I was pretty moral for the whole game but I'd ditch it all in a second if Morrigan wanted the Warden to, and she could use that.

[Shade of Wolf]

adneate wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

But does Flemeth have to take a mage? Or a even a female? I mean if she was desperate she knows where she can find an Alistair.

That is an odd mental image to say the least. It seems the Flemeth doesn't have to take a mage but prehaps a body already capable of practicing magic makes a better host, though exactly how magic functions in Dragon Age isn't 100% clear it appears to be an ability you are born with for the most, but then there are the Templars who can sorta do magic but aren't mages at all. In Origins we see Tranquil being "possessed" by demons which I thought was impossible since they have no connection to the fade so maybe Flemeth's "soul" could just take anyone and she could start casting magic right then and there?

So we have Flemeth the Shapeshifter and Flemeth the possessor.

[adneate]

Brockololly wrote...

Which has me wondering if she pulled off any Clay Face like shenanigans in Origins and we didn't know it? Like impersonating someone without the Warden realizing it?

She was Oghren the whole time.

Brockololly wrote...

- Morrigan mentions seeing Flemeth as a beautiful woman with dark hair when she was young. Was Flemeth just shapeshifting then or does her outward "default" human appearance become affected by her use of magic?  Kind of like in Neil Gaiman's Stardust, where whenever the witches use  magic, they become uglier and basically age more rapidly as it takes a toll on their body? This might make sense as blood magic does take a toll on one's life force, right?

Possibly, Lyrium abuse apparently causes horrible deformities in mages the ancient Magister Lords towards the end of their lives were so hideously disfigured that their own families didn't recognize them. As for Blood Magic, well it takes a toll on the body but that seems to be more that you've lost a pint of blood and not that you've become the Emperor because of too much force lightning.

Brockololly wrote...
That bolded part makes me think BioWare has sinister plans in store for the DR.....<_<

I was never under the impression that it would end happily ever after, it just didn't seem to fit the style of Morrigan's romance. I just hope there is an ending with The Warden and Morrigan and some sort of decent closure on the whole Old God Baby thing, right now it's just loose threads and unanswered questions.

Modifié par adneate, 17 juillet 2010 - 11:02 .

[MKDAWUSS]

adneate wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
That bolded part makes me think BioWare has sinister plans in store for the DR.....<_<

I was never under the impression that it would end happily ever after, it just didn't seem to fit the style of Morrigan's romance. I just hope there is an ending with The Warden and Morrigan and some sort of decent closure on the whole Old God Baby thing, right now it's just loose threads and unanswered questions.

I was under the impression that the DR WAS the ending to the Warden-Morrigan romance. Didn't they say that the Warden's story was done, while Morrigan's (and presumably the OGB's) wasn't?

[Brockololly]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

adneate wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
That bolded part makes me think BioWare has sinister plans in store for the DR.....<_<

I was never under the impression that it would end happily ever after, it just didn't seem to fit the style of Morrigan's romance. I just hope there is an ending with The Warden and Morrigan and some sort of decent closure on the whole Old God Baby thing, right now it's just loose threads and unanswered questions.

I was under the impression that the DR WAS the ending to the Warden-Morrigan romance. Didn't they say that the Warden's story was done, while Morrigan's (and presumably the OGB's) wasn't?

Yeah, I'm under no illusions that there will be any sunshine and rainbows Morrigan ending but Idon't think it needs to end in doom and gloom either. It would be nice if in resolving it there was at least the possibility for a "happy" ending even if you have to work hard to get it.

Even the Viconia romance from BG2, also written by Gaider and eerily similar to Morrigan's, had a sort of happy ending, at least for a time, before she was killed off in the epilogue text...

As for the Warden going on- Gaider has said that the Warden won't be in DA2, but he also has kind of hinted that they might or might not be doing something to continue the whole "Warden searching for Morrigan plotline." Whether thats DLC or another ex-pack, nobody knows. There is more content coming for Origins, so maybe its something with that...

Or maybe we'll be the Warden again in DA3, who knows...

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 juillet 2010 - 11:14 .

[2papercuts]

Brockololly wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

adneate wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
That bolded part makes me think BioWare has sinister plans in store for the DR.....<_<

I was never under the impression that it would end happily ever after, it just didn't seem to fit the style of Morrigan's romance. I just hope there is an ending with The Warden and Morrigan and some sort of decent closure on the whole Old God Baby thing, right now it's just loose threads and unanswered questions.

I was under the impression that the DR WAS the ending to the Warden-Morrigan romance. Didn't they say that the Warden's story was done, while Morrigan's (and presumably the OGB's) wasn't?

Yeah, I'm under no illusions that there will be any sunshine and rainbows Morrigan ending but Idon't think it needs to end in doom and gloom either. It would be nice if in resolving it there was at least the possibility for a "happy" ending even if you have to work hard to get it.

Even the Viconia romance from BG2, also written by Gaider and eerily similar to Morrigan's, had a sort of happy ending, at least for a time, before she was killed off in the epilogue text...

As for the Warden going on- Gaider has said that the Warden won't be in DA2, but he also has kind of hinted that they might or might not be doing something to continue the whole "Warden searching for Morrigan plotline." Whether thats DLC or another ex-pack, nobody knows. There is more content coming for Origins, so maybe its something with that...

Or maybe we'll be the Warden again in DA3, who knows...

almost impossible for bioware to go back to the warden for DA3 now that theyre having voiced characters

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Apropos Flemeth, did you ever think about the fact that your PC was unconscious and completely in her power for maybe up to a few weeks?

Does that idea weird anyone else out? 

You mean get herself impregnated?

Actually, that would have been practical, she would not have needed Morrigan to do the ritual and get the OGB.
And if the PC is a female, then there is always Alistair.

Or perhaps the Dark Ritual can only be done shortly before the battle.

Eh, Flemeth's body in DAO was very old.  I doubt she'd be able to physically carry a child to term at that point.  She was (supposedly) readying Morrigan for her body swap spell after all.

[phaonica]

Ugh. It'd make me so unhappy if the OGB turned out to be a big baddie in DA2 and my Warden was nowhere to be found. If that turned out to be true, I'd never do the DR in Origins again.

[MKDAWUSS]

phaonica wrote...

Ugh. It'd make me so unhappy if the OGB turned out to be a big baddie in DA2 and my Warden was nowhere to be found. If that turned out to be true, I'd never do the DR in Origins again.

But the OGB would still be in DA2, though, wouldn't it?

[Brockololly]

phaonica wrote...

Ugh. It'd make me so unhappy if the OGB turned out to be a big baddie in DA2 and my Warden was nowhere to be found. If that turned out to be true, I'd never do the DR in Origins again.

I really, really, really hope that whatever BioWare does with the consequences of the DR, they don't simply have something "BAD" happen. Whether thats turning Morrigan into a villain, turning the OGB into the Big Bad or anything simplistic like that. It would just be sooooo predictable. And DA is at its best when its dealing with shades of grey.

As for the OGB even being in DA2- you figure given Origins probably takes 1-2 years time and Hawke's story seems to start at Lothering, the oldest the OGB could be by the end of the ten year span of DA2 is about 8 or 9 years old.  So unless BioWare is going to have us killing little kids or the OGB grows really fast, I'm doubtful the OGB will make an appearance in any big way. 

Its kind of curious- it seems DA is all about big historical events in Thedas but certain characters or things will tie everything together. I'm almost wondering if we're sort of playing the "Flemeth Trilogy" of DA right now. She certainly seems like the puppetmaster orchestrating everything and maybe its all about her story arc?

[phaonica]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Ugh. It'd make me so unhappy if the OGB turned out to be a big baddie in DA2 and my Warden was nowhere to be found. If that turned out to be true, I'd never do the DR in Origins again.

But the OGB would still be in DA2, though, wouldn't it?

Yeah, it would, but it would make me feel better. Like at least that crap wasn't my Warden's fault and then s/he sits around and does nothing about it.

[phaonica]

Brockololly wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Ugh. It'd make me so unhappy if the OGB turned out to be a big baddie in DA2 and my Warden was nowhere to be found. If that turned out to be true, I'd never do the DR in Origins again.

I really, really, really hope that whatever BioWare does with the consequences of the DR, they don't simply have something "BAD" happen. Whether thats turning Morrigan into a villain, turning the OGB into the Big Bad or anything simplistic like that. It would just be sooooo predictable. And DA is at its best when its dealing with shades of grey.

It would be rather predictable, which gives me hope that maybe it won't happen.

As for the OGB even being in DA2- you figure given Origins probably takes 1-2 years time and Hawke's story seems to start at Lothering, the oldest the OGB could be by the end of the ten year span of DA2 is about 8 or 9 years old.  So unless BioWare is going to have us killing little kids or the OGB grows really fast, I'm doubtful the OGB will make an appearance in any big way. 

My bet would be on the growing really fast thing. We don't know what the thing really is, after all. Morrigan says it would barely be able to be called a child after that first night. So who knows?

Its kind of curious- it seems DA is all about big historical events in Thedas but certain characters or things will tie everything together. I'm almost wondering if we're sort of playing the "Flemeth Trilogy" of DA right now. She certainly seems like the puppetmaster orchestrating everything and maybe its all about her story arc?

I read somewhere that Mass Effect was intended to be kind of like a trilogy where player choices carried all the way through. I've wondered if they're setting DA2 up to be more of a "beginning" of a trilogy with a character who they have more control over, given that the game is in the third person now.

I hope Flemeth is not so much of a puppetmaster that she was right there guiding the Warden the whole time, manipulating events in the Warden's favor. That's not what I want to see in "seeing events from a different angle" that's for sure.

[ximena]

phaonica wrote...

Brockololly wrote...


As for the OGB even being in DA2- you figure given Origins probably takes 1-2 years time and Hawke's story seems to start at Lothering, the oldest the OGB could be by the end of the ten year span of DA2 is about 8 or 9 years old.  So unless BioWare is going to have us killing little kids or the OGB grows really fast, I'm doubtful the OGB will make an appearance in any big way. 

My bet would be on the growing really fast thing. We don't know what the thing really is, after all. Morrigan says it would barely be able to be called a child after that first night. So who knows?

I don't really know what to think of the OGB growing really fast. As for Morrigan saying that, I think she meant that at such an early stage of conception, the baby isn't really a child yet.

[phaonica]

ximena wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Brockololly wrote...


As for the OGB even being in DA2- you figure given Origins probably takes 1-2 years time and Hawke's story seems to start at Lothering, the oldest the OGB could be by the end of the ten year span of DA2 is about 8 or 9 years old.  So unless BioWare is going to have us killing little kids or the OGB grows really fast, I'm doubtful the OGB will make an appearance in any big way. 

My bet would be on the growing really fast thing. We don't know what the thing really is, after all. Morrigan says it would barely be able to be called a child after that first night. So who knows?

I don't really know what to think of the OGB growing really fast. As for Morrigan saying that, I think she meant that at such an early stage of conception, the baby isn't really a child yet.

Wow, I didn't interpret that line that way at all. I didn't hear "it won't be a child yet, so you won't hurt it". I heard "after it contains the old god soul, it wont' be a child any more".

Morrigan: "Ignoring that after but one night it could barely be called a child... no, it will not be hurt. It will be changed."

Modifié par phaonica, 18 juillet 2010 - 03:51 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I doubt the DR is going to be all happines and roses, but then Gaider wont simply write that the OGB is the Devil hopefully.



In a bad case the Chantry could start an divine crusade on the child and if rumors start that the wardens let it loose, um the wardens are good but if the entire Qunari got defeated by Divine Crusades the wardens wont win either.



In a good case maybe the OGB can lead to a better religion or world, who knows.



Dont do the DR in any of my real runs so its a nonstarter.

[phaonica]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I doubt the DR is going to be all happines and roses, but then Gaider wont simply write that the OGB is the Devil hopefully.

I always thought that Morrigan was so sad and passionate about the DR. Even if you are not in a romance with her, you can bring her almost to tears over it. What in the world would possibly make her break down like that?

Dont do the DR in any of my real runs so its a nonstarter.

Stupid, stupid falling in love and letting that cloud my judgment.  How does Morrigan do it? 

Modifié par phaonica, 18 juillet 2010 - 04:21 .