16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'm still not all on board with the narrative structure. I like the fluff.

But I'll have to see.

Right- I'm worried that will kill exploration, travelling across the map and having slower moments. My impression is that this "framed narrative" lets them just skip to the big action scenes. Part of the thing with a big RPG adventure like Origins is that you need the slower moments to provide a contrast and some perspective to the big important moments.

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TopPriority is to not change or remove what made Origins great.

Thefact that there's a voiced PC and paraphrased dialogue wheel already tells me that that's bull****.  And they know it, since they were promoting the unvoiced PC as a feature in Origins.

And yet they're changing a whol hell of a lot from Origins...Origins wasn't perfect, but from reading the GI article and the marketing for DA2 thus far you'd think it was a terrible game. What worries me is that BioWare is saying "we're keeping what made Origins great!" and then they're changing those very things, like the old school RPG depth, unvoiced PC, the characters and so on. It makes me wonder if they actually understand why Origins was a successful game- and the fact that its seemingly going over their head- as evidenced by the DLC and Awakening- has me worried and confused more than anything.

I love the foundation they laid for future DA material with Origins. Yet it seems instead of continuing to build up off of the foundation Origins provided, they're just starting some new foundation and trying to pass it off as an evolution of the original. Time will tell, though...

MoSa09 wrote...

That is, if you do believe all those talk.While i agree they deserve the benefit of the doubt, Bw has said an awful lot lately. Some things were true, some were at least half true and some were very close to being plain lies

Exactly- and most of the rubbish comes from Awakening, really. "Oh, your choices won't be forgotten! You'll have recognition of your past LIs!" Sure thing BioWare, keep telling yourself that.

I listened to the podcast and it didn't do anything for me. Laidlaw can talk the talk, but lets see what the game actually looks and plays like. I have faith in BioWare's writers, but the rest of the crew? Not as much, especially with the direction they've taken with the DLC and Awakening.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

So, didn't one of the screenies essentially confirm that the dialogue wheel will have only 3 options? Meaning only three emotions. Anyone else concerned about that? More than usual I mean.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So, didn't one of the screenies essentially confirm that the dialogue wheel will have only 3 options? Meaning only three emotions. Anyone else concerned about that? More than usual I mean.

No. It didn't.

There was three options right there, there is room for six or eleven options (depending on if they take the investigate approach).

[Giggles_Manically]

Which screen?



Isint the GI article getting released in august also?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So, didn't one of the screenies essentially confirm that the dialogue wheel will have only 3 options? Meaning only three emotions. Anyone else concerned about that? More than usual I mean.

No. It didn't.

There was three options right there, there is room for six or eleven options (depending on if they take the investigate approach).

Was it confirmed that we will have at least 6 options?
 
And 11 options as in different emotional responses? Highly doubftul. Investigate questions are not the kind of options I am talking about.

[Giggles_Manically]

If Meer voices Hawke all the options will be a pic of a nose and read Nasily.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So, didn't one of the screenies essentially confirm that the dialogue wheel will have only 3 options? Meaning only three emotions. Anyone else concerned about that? More than usual I mean.

No. It didn't.

There was three options right there, there is room for six or eleven options (depending on if they take the investigate approach).

Was it confirmed that we will have at least 6 options?
 
And 11 options as in different emotional responses? Highly doubftul. Investigate questions are not the kind of options I am talking about.

I don't think there has been any confirmation. Only that one example.

As much as the marketing has said "people don't like to read!" I imagine that the phrases on the wheel will be quite short.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So, didn't one of the screenies essentially confirm that the dialogue wheel will have only 3 options? Meaning only three emotions. Anyone else concerned about that? More than usual I mean.

No. It didn't.

There was three options right there, there is room for six or eleven options (depending on if they take the investigate approach).

Was it confirmed that we will have at least 6 options?
 
And 11 options as in different emotional responses? Highly doubftul. Investigate questions are not the kind of options I am talking about.

Ah, you meant modes? Each line is written with a certain emotion implied. So, there might be a "You'll die!" [angry], "Well see." [suave] and "So what?" [indifferent] if there is someone saying that he'll kill your family or something like that, just to make an example. I chose three as I'm too lazy to do any more.

There is a possibility for 11 different responses to each statement though.

[phaonica]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Ah, you meant modes? Each line is written with a certain emotion implied. So, there might be a "You'll die!" [angry], "Well see." [suave] and "So what?" [indifferent] if there is someone saying that he'll kill your family or something like that, just to make an example. I chose three as I'm too lazy to do any more.

There is a possibility for 11 different responses to each statement though.

Where does this info come from?

[Brockololly]

Gaider commented on the dialogue wheel and the number of possible choices yesterday, in this thread.

David Gaider wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I was talking about DA:O whare I thought they did. The end result is the  same, but that doesn't mean you don't get different dialogue. There's  usually at least a few words or a sentence or two that are different,  depending on your choice.

And it is exactly the same in DA2.

jon372 wrote...
Huh, well unless theres ''Investigation'' like ME, then you could have as much as 8

There is. So you have 5 options on the main wheel plus "Investigate", which brings you to another wheel hub where you have up to 5 more options (plus "Return"). So we do, in fact, have the ability to put up more options than we did in DAO.

We're not always going to use all of those, of course (any more than we did all six in DAO) but in terms of the number of choices we put up we  are not limited by the wheel at all.

Narreneth wrote...
If  you don't like the VO for your own reasons, fine.  Slapping  rationales on it that aren't true is completely pointless, though.

I think the problem some people are expressing is that they don't like the paraphrase system, and that sometimes the intent of the paraphrase isn't clear. I think the icon system we use (an icon is represented in  the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular  intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") mitigates that to  an extent... but I don't doubt there are people for whom that's simply  never going to work. You are also correct, however, that there's no  point in assigning problems to the system that simply don't exist... nor in assuming that the style used in Mass Effect's narrative structure  will be exactly the same in DA2 simply because we use the same system  (though what else do you have to compare it to for the moment?).

As for the GI article screen, it did only have 3 choices on it:


What I'm wondering though is how many dumb little emotion icons are there going to be? I'm not a fan of pointless, vague icons either. Like in the screen above, what does the fist mean? Does it mean "sort of angry" or does it mean Hawke is going to go thermonuclear a knock somebody on their ass? The very vagueness of the icon doesn't do much to alleviate the problem with the ME style dialogue wheel in guessing the PC's action when not only do we get a paraphrased blurb but the icon is a paraphrased emotion. 

The whole dialogue wheel and voiced PC for me just seems like a massive waste of resources that could be spent elsewhere to improve on the game...

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maybe the manual will tell us exactly what each icon means. It's definately an improvement over ME.

[Herr Uhl]

Btw Brocklolly. Is there some system to find dev quotes similar to dragonagecentral for DA2 yet?

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

What I'm wondering though is how many dumb little emotion icons are there going to be? I'm not a fan of pointless, vague icons either. Like in the screen above, what does the fist mean? Does it mean "sort of angry" or does it mean Hawke is going to go thermonuclear a knock somebody on their ass? The very vagueness of the icon doesn't do much to alleviate the problem with the ME style dialogue wheel in guessing the PC's action when not only do we get a paraphrased blurb but the icon is a paraphrased emotion. 

No matter how careful they are, there is going to be surprise.  A heart can't always mean you're going to kiss the person, but it probably will some of the time.  Surprise is fun when it's an NPC or the game throwing you a curve.  The PC throwing you a curve, not so much. 

The whole dialogue wheel and voiced PC for me just seems like a massive waste of resources that could be spent elsewhere to improve on the game...

*clings to Brock as the last bastion of sanity in this world* 

Especially as Mike Laidlaw has said they are working very hard on this, how many lines the PC has and how important it is to get it right, etc..  I'm glad they're trying to get it right, except that just reinforces the fact that it's a third teat to begin with.

[Kryyptehk]

Brockololly wrote...

Gaider commented on the dialogue wheel and the number of possible choices yesterday, in this thread.

David Gaider wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I was talking about DA:O whare I thought they did. The end result is the  same, but that doesn't mean you don't get different dialogue. There's  usually at least a few words or a sentence or two that are different,  depending on your choice.

And it is exactly the same in DA2.

jon372 wrote...
Huh, well unless theres ''Investigation'' like ME, then you could have as much as 8

There is. So you have 5 options on the main wheel plus "Investigate", which brings you to another wheel hub where you have up to 5 more options (plus "Return"). So we do, in fact, have the ability to put up more options than we did in DAO.

We're not always going to use all of those, of course (any more than we did all six in DAO) but in terms of the number of choices we put up we  are not limited by the wheel at all.

Narreneth wrote...
If  you don't like the VO for your own reasons, fine.  Slapping  rationales on it that aren't true is completely pointless, though.

I think the problem some people are expressing is that they don't like the paraphrase system, and that sometimes the intent of the paraphrase isn't clear. I think the icon system we use (an icon is represented in  the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular  intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") mitigates that to  an extent... but I don't doubt there are people for whom that's simply  never going to work. You are also correct, however, that there's no  point in assigning problems to the system that simply don't exist... nor in assuming that the style used in Mass Effect's narrative structure  will be exactly the same in DA2 simply because we use the same system  (though what else do you have to compare it to for the moment?).

As for the GI article screen, it did only have 3 choices on it:

I hope the game isn't as grainy as it is there:sick:

[adneate]

Kryyptehk wrote...
I hope the game isn't as grainy as it is there:sick:

Kryyptehk that's a scan of a piece of paper not an actual digital screenshot . . .

[Kryyptehk]

adneate wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
I hope the game isn't as grainy as it is there:sick:

Kryyptehk that's a scan of a piece of paper not an actual digital screenshot . . .

They have an online version of the magazine, I assumed it came from there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hawke's beard is ANNOYING!!! Sorry, had to get it off my system.

[Brockololly]

Kryyptehk wrote...

adneate wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
I hope the game isn't as grainy as it is there:sick:

Kryyptehk that's a scan of a piece of paper not an actual digital screenshot . . .

They have an online version of the magazine, I assumed it came from there.

Here is another shot thats less grainy - the article is floating around the internet if you want it *hint hint*

[GardenSnake]

Listened to the podcast and I can say that my combat worries have been taken care of. Story, VO and the wheel? Still REALLY skeptical about that. I also would like to know how many emotion indicators are going to be used in game, and how easily they'll be recognizable. The red fist by itself didn't tell me that Hawke was about to start a fight, the line cleared that up. I don't want to see a smiley face and a line that seems friendly and then watch as Hawke steals the NPC's lunch. The emotion indicators are a good idea (still think that no VO is superior however), but they better not mislead the players or be incomprehensible. The red fist next to the line "I'm Hawke" for example would confuse me to no end. Am I about to say hi or am I about to burn the NPC's house down and kill his family?

[Brockololly]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Btw Brocklolly. Is there some system to find dev quotes similar to dragonagecentral for DA2 yet?

Not that I know of. I PM'd Wachter asking if they had any plans to have any feature like DA Central in the forums and haven't heard back as of yet. If I was more technologically savvy I'd love to update DA Central to go through the DA2 forums, but alas, I have no clue.

Addai67 wrote...
No matter how careful they are, there is going to be surprise.  A heart can't always mean you're going to kiss the person, but it probably will some of the time.  Surprise is fun  when it's an NPC or the game throwing you a curve.  The PC throwing you a curve, not so much. 

Exactly- the devs tip toed around that in ME by saying straight up  that you're only directing Shepard, but you aren't actually controlling him. Fine. But thus far in DA2, the devs have said it will be different and not like ME, but every piece of marketing and the GI article praise DA2 for being more like ME.

The whole paraphrase + emotion icon seems like you're just unnecessarily complicating the whole thing. You have to read the blurb, guess what it actually means, then make sure the blurb matches with the proper "emotion" the icon is trying to convey, and hope that the red fist icon only means "I'm going to speak slightly angrily!" and not "I'M GOING TO GO MEL GIBSON CRAZY AND PUNCH THIS OLD LADY IN THE FACE!" And then after all that you have to passively sit and wait to watch and listen to a cutscene elaborate on what you just  decided on.

But of course, just reading a series of dialogue choices as an alternative is way too hard. You know, you just click a choice after reading it and watch the companion's response to your dialogue. Ugh, thats just too much strain for my bro mind, dude.

/headdesk

Addai67 wrote...
*clings to Brock as the last bastion of sanity in this world*  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/kissing.png

Especially as Mike Laidlaw has said they are working very hard on this, how many lines the PC has and how important it is to get it right, etc..  I'm glad they're trying to get it right, except that just reinforces the fact that it's a third teat to begin with.

Right- its like Awakening to me. In Awakening I hated the conversation system because it made it too "game" like. Meaning, the actual mechanics behind the dialogue were so painfully out of place in hiding them in random objects that it no longer seemed like conversing with a companion but engaging in some dialogue scavenger hunt mini game.

The dialogue wheel is similar. In Origins you pick the dialogue and then behind the scenes it boils down that full dialogue choice and steers it towards several outcomes with approval hits/perks along the way. With the dialogue wheel, you're basically bringing that simplified mechanical process to the forefront in guessing Hawke's response tied to some ambiguous emotion and hoping that whatever he/she says matches up to the blurb/emotion.


It just bothers me that given what we've seen so far, the changes made in DA2 seem they would fit in more with ME3 than DA. This stuff wouldn't bother me if it was a new IP, but I like seeing some consistency in sequels and franchises. Making all of these radical changes in the gameplay, presentation and art style in only the second game of the DA series seems stupid to me, especially given that Origins did quite well. You want to evolve in sequels, not start fresh- and yet it just seems to me that DA2 is as much of a reboot of DA as anything.

Modifié par Brockololly, 21 juillet 2010 - 12:46 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hawke's beard is ANNOYING!!! Sorry, had to get it off my system.

So says the dude with the bearded avatar??

[phaonica]

GardenSnake wrote...

Listened to the podcast and I can say that my combat worries have been taken care of. Story, VO and the wheel? Still REALLY skeptical about that. I also would like to know how many emotion indicators are going to be used in game, and how easily they'll be recognizable. The red fist by itself didn't tell me that Hawke was about to start a fight, the line cleared that up. I don't want to see a smiley face and a line that seems friendly and then watch as Hawke steals the NPC's lunch. The emotion indicators are a good idea (still think that no VO is superior however), but they better not mislead the players or be incomprehensible. The red fist next to the line "I'm Hawke" for example would confuse me to no end. Am I about to say hi or am I about to burn the NPC's house down and kill his family?

Yeah, I'm pretty much game to try out the new combat system. I hope I don't have to choose which type of combat I want to play by choosing which platform I'm going to be playing on.

The voiced PC does bother me, because I just like 1st person better, but it isn't like 3rd person games haven't been engaging and fun before. Being in the first person was hardly the *only* thing that made Origins fun for me. It was a combination of a lot of good features, the story the good dialog, the great characters, the twists on the fantasy cliches, and others I can't think of right now.

After Awakening, I'm highly aware that, for me, it was not necessarily the world or the story that was most engaging, and what made me care, it was the interaction between the PC and the NPCs that did it. The more they can do to make me care about the NPCs (especially my party members) the more likely I will be to embrace the role of the big damn hero.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hawke's beard is ANNOYING!!! Sorry, had to get it off my system.

So says the dude with the bearded avatar??

Not all beards are annoying. Hawke's is. It just looks....weird.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hawke's beard is ANNOYING!!! Sorry, had to get it off my system.

So says the dude with the bearded avatar??

Not all beards are annoying. Hawke's is. It just looks....weird.

Is it the bushyness or that it has a slightly different color to his hair?

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

The dialogue wheel is similar. In Origins you pick the dialogue and then behind the scenes it boils down that full dialogue choice and steers it towards several outcomes with approval hits/perks along the way. With the dialogue wheel, you're basically bringing that simplified mechanical process to the forefront in guessing Hawke's response tied to some ambiguous emotion and hoping that whatever he/she says matches up to the blurb/emotion.

With the caveat that we don't actually know how it's going to work in detail, I dislike the idea that there's not even a pretence of nuance in pointing at a fist versus at a heart versus at a smiley face.  People will argue that these things were always inherent, that there always was an invisible fist or heart behind a dialogue line, but I don't buy that.  It seems to me the writers will be "studying to the test," simplifying or streamlining interactions precisely because they need to conform the dialogue to the icon.  Otherwise the icon would not have any real meaning.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 juillet 2010 - 12:57 .