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[adneate]

Why is it that everything that Gaider writes basically sounds like him going, "Whateva I do what I want, love it or leave it losers." I remember the complaints about Awakening's crap conversation system (which was rubbish by the way) and he came in and looked at all the complaints and said "Whateva you people don't get it, the new way is way better because the old one sucked I have facts and figures." He was utterly convinced the Origins systems was totally broken and in need of a massive and drastic overhaul, anybody who didn't think the new system was better was categorically dismissed as a crackpot moron who liked garbage. In hindsight we probably should have seen the abomination that is DA2 coming . . .

Edit: Should be noted that the Awakening systems was heavily influenced by Mass Effect 2, again the writing on the wall seems obvious in retrospect.

Modifié par adneate, 01 août 2010 - 10:42 .

[Brockololly]

Yeah, I'm guessing the Awakening system was easier to implement and write for as the writers, but the end result of actually playing the game wasn't half as good as Origins, And that had nothing to do with the length of the game or volume of dialogue- its just bird brained to have to click on a rock to initiate a conversation with a random party member. I fear DA2 will be more like Awakening and less like Origins.

[adneate]

Well I can't find the link but I'm sure you've heard it too they essentially said all future DA games going forward will build off the Awakening conversation system NOT the Origins system. That means the conditional system for DA2 is pretty much already confirmed in which case I shudder to think how romances or character development is supposed to take place when you can't ask your companions anything meaningful but have to run around with the tab button pressed down looking for at tree to click on so they can unload more of their life story on you. I guess once again we get exposition not development but I'm sure with the amount of backstorys that BioWare has written by now they're probably pretty quick about slapping one together and giving it a face.



On the plus side since we'll never really get all that attached to the characters we won't have to make a thread like this for DA2 since we won't care.

[Herr Uhl]

adneate wrote...

Well I can't find the link but I'm sure you've heard it too they essentially said all future DA games going forward will build off the Awakening conversation system NOT the Origins system.

You mean this,

David Gaider wrote...

MistySun wrote...
I read somewhere that Bioware have said they're removing camp conversation and future games will be more like the Awakening system. 
Don't do it. 
You made DAO a great success.
But you made Awakenings a lost cause. People (most) did not like it.
Stick to what you know best. To make a great game such as DAO.
If future DA goes the same way as Awakenings, you will lose out. 

In other words...the end of the line. 

A) As was pointed out above, despite what you "read somewhere", that's not what we're doing. Just because we're not doing one thing does not make it the extreme and exact opposite. Chances are it will end up somewhere in-between... which is, frankly, the case every time someone on the forums begins panicking over a perceived change.

On the off chance what we implement isn't what you're looking for, I apologize in advance. Even so, we'll muddle through somehow despite what "most" people think.

And then this one?

David Gaider wrote...

Zanderat wrote...
I think that you may be missing the REAL concern (at least for me).  The conversation system, while not perfect, did allow you to get to know your npcs.  The depth of the writing allowed me, for the first time ever, to feel a connection to game characters.  Awakening had none of that.  This is my concern.  We can only judge your intentions by your actions.  And the double whammy of Awakening and the DS Chronicles, both utterly lacking the very core of what made DOA unique, is troubling. 

I think you may, in part, simply be mistaking the amount of writing that goes into a full game like DAO and the amount that can go into something like an expansion or a tiny piece of DLC. I realize some people had issues with the interface used in Awakening, but even if that interface was what you were used to in Origins that wouldn't change the fact that there was exponentially less dialogue. That's something the "use both systems!' camp seems to forget. The word budget for Awakening was less than a tenth of Origins.

Maybe we shouldn't have tried to introduce new characters with that budget? Maybe. Hindsight is always 20/20, as they say, and our effort was spent trying to present it as well as we could and also innovate a little to try some new things (which we tend to when it comes to expansions). And DLC is going to be even more daring than that-- some are going to be story-driven, some not. Some things work out, some don't, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying-- and using them to extrapolate our intentions for future full-budget games is an interesting exercise, I'm sure, but you're welcome to try. 

And now I'm off since I can't handle being as negative as you lot are right now.

[TJPags]

I'm only following this loosely, but I have a question:

You all seem to want closure between the Warden and Morri.  Clearly, you all romanced her, and did the DR.

What about those who did the US ending?  What about female Wardens who never romanced her?  What about male Wardens who didn't romance her?  What about male Wardens who romanced Leli?

If DA2 or DA3 picks up the Wardens search for his LI Morri, well, how does it make sense for any of those people?

So, would it really be doable as you're suggesting?

If I'm missing something here, let me know.

[Brockololly]

Yeah, I'm not sure I remember that quote but I think I remember Gaider saying in the DA2 forum that they weren't talking about the dialogue system yet...But given the whole framed narrative, I wonder if they don't get rid of camp too. I don't know- at this point they could get rid of all armor customization, nix the inventory leave it hack and slash with ME style dialogue points and I wouldn't be surprised sadly.



Good point on Awakening being more like ME2, as well dialogue wise. *sigh* BioWare can say its not Dragon Effect 2 all they want, but even IGN has seen DA2 for what it is. Like it or not the onus is on BioWare now to convince people that DA2 is NOT just Mass Effect with dragons and swords, because as much as people may have liked ME, the people that liked DAO didn't necessarily like ME. Origins was successful because it was a different kind of RPG than ME- now it at least seems we're getting them all mixed together into one big hybrid goo.

Anyway, its only about 2 weeks or so now until the debut trailer. I'm sure it will in some way pull a "Shepard is Dead" style stunt on us- like killing off Morrigan or something. Ahhh, good ol' BioWare marketing....

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...

I'm only following this loosely, but I have a question:

You all seem to want closure between the Warden and Morri.  Clearly, you all romanced her, and did the DR.

What about those who did the US ending?  What about female Wardens who never romanced her?  What about male Wardens who didn't romance her?  What about male Wardens who romanced Leli?

If DA2 or DA3 picks up the Wardens search for his LI Morri, well, how does it make sense for any of those people?

So, would it really be doable as you're suggesting?

If I'm missing something here, let me know.

I don't think any of us are necessarily expecting an entire expansion devoted to Morrigan or romancing Morrigan. But the bottom line is that so long as your Warden survived, they have a history with Morrigan, DR or not. And Morrigan survives Origins regardless. She'll show up again and given their past history- love, friendship, antagonistic- I thinkit would make more sense for the Warden to be the one dealing with Morrigan. Obviously if you did the DR, then you've got the OGB in the picture too.

As for the US Wardens...I mean, if its just a Morrigan DLC or something then nobody would be forcing you to buy it. If its a plot in an expack they could go with the Orlesian Warden and just switch up some of Morrigan's dialogue. Basically, the Warden has an existing relationship with Morrigan already and I'd vastly prefer it if the Warden is the one dealing with her in the future and not some random hero like Hawke.

[adneate]

TJPags wrote...

I'm only following this loosely, but I have a question:

You all seem to want closure between the Warden and Morri.  Clearly, you all romanced her, and did the DR.

What about those who did the US ending?  What about female Wardens who never romanced her?  What about male Wardens who didn't romance her?  What about male Wardens who romanced Leli?

If DA2 or DA3 picks up the Wardens search for his LI Morri, well, how does it make sense for any of those people?

So, would it really be doable as you're suggesting?

If I'm missing something here, let me know.

Well this is a Morrigan thread so I think we do kinda talk about Morrigan more than say Alistair or Zevran. The US ending is the most final ending so it doesn't really fit into a sequel since The Warden is dead. I think in general we're in favour of actual forward character development as opposed to endless exposition, that a sequel with The Warden would have character development for all romance options not just Morrigan. For the Morrigan romance closure is obviously the critical factor in any character development, but she factors in some way into all runs regardless of whether you romanced her or not.

[Giggles_Manically]

I am getting a laugh at Bioware's claims that DA2 isint a Mass Effect clone:

A voiced, single species protagontist, with a set last name

A dialouge wheel.

SHINY NEW COMBAT



Overall I am starting to think that Gaider dosent hold the belief that people can put two and two toghther.

[TJPags]

Well, but doesn't the Warden have an existing relationship with every NPC from Origins?



I mean, if we do a Qunari invasion game, would make sense to have the Warden deal with them, too, and for Sten to appear, no?



The problem, as I see it, is that all of the companions went in different directions, and there's no guarantee they would all - or even some - see each other again.



To put a Morri story into DA3 is like . . .well, what about everyone else?



As a DLC or something, yea, maybe - could do one for each, if they wanted I guess. But as a full on game . . . . I don't see that DA3: The Search for Morrigan is really viable for Bioware to do . . .

[TJPags]

adneate wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I'm only following this loosely, but I have a question:

You all seem to want closure between the Warden and Morri.  Clearly, you all romanced her, and did the DR.

What about those who did the US ending?  What about female Wardens who never romanced her?  What about male Wardens who didn't romance her?  What about male Wardens who romanced Leli?

If DA2 or DA3 picks up the Wardens search for his LI Morri, well, how does it make sense for any of those people?

So, would it really be doable as you're suggesting?

If I'm missing something here, let me know.

Well this is a Morrigan thread so I think we do kinda talk about Morrigan more than say Alistair or Zevran. The US ending is the most final ending so it doesn't really fit into a sequel since The Warden is dead. I think in general we're in favour of actual forward character development as opposed to endless exposition, that a sequel with The Warden would have character development for all romance options not just Morrigan. For the Morrigan romance closure is obviously the critical factor in any character development, but she factors in some way into all runs regardless of whether you romanced her or not.

Okay, this makes sense to me.

My confusion was more that I really only see this discussion in this thread, and as I said I'm only kind of loosely following it, so it seemed you were calling for a DA3 that kind of exclusively dealt with Morri . . . . . and I didn't see how that could work.

Also, see my prior post which kind of also covers that.

In any event, except for my first game (where I got Morri to love before getting into her pants, thus only slept with her during the DR) I do need to have my wild witch in every game . . .

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

I'm only following this loosely, but I have a question:

You all seem to want closure between the Warden and Morri.  Clearly, you all romanced her, and did the DR.

What about those who did the US ending?  What about female Wardens who never romanced her?  What about male Wardens who didn't romance her?  What about male Wardens who romanced Leli?

If DA2 or DA3 picks up the Wardens search for his LI Morri, well, how does it make sense for any of those people?

So, would it really be doable as you're suggesting?

If I'm missing something here, let me know.

I think a DLC or expansion where the OGB turned out to be something of a big deal would be fun. But if we can have DLC in a world where the Warden didn't exist, and a DLC where I play as Leliana, even though I didn't care that much for Leliana, and obviously I am not Leliana, then I can see playing a DLC as an imported or AU Warden who did the DR and was searching for Morrigan. It could be considered AU if you want, but in that case every single one of us has a different AU story, so it's not really a big deal.

[phaonica]

Brockololly wrote...

Right here:

David Gaider wrote...

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely toget. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.

I get this sinking feeling every time I see this quote. It makes me think that DG wants us to accept that Morrigan's story is tied to Thedas' story in a way that the Warden's story is only tied to the Blight, therefore the story of Thedas and Morrigan goes on without the Warden. But for a lot of us, the Warden's story was not *just* about the Blight. Just because a new story doesn't entail a Blight, doens't necessarily mean that our Warden wouldn't find something about it to be of interest and worthy of taking action, *especially* if it involved the OGB and Morrigan.

Modifié par phaonica, 02 août 2010 - 12:54 .

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I am getting a laugh at Bioware's claims that DA2 isint a Mass Effect clone:
A voiced, single species protagontist, with a set last name
A dialouge wheel.
SHINY NEW COMBAT

Overall I am starting to think that Gaider dosent hold the belief that people can put two and two toghther.

Yeah, the whole focus on how improved the combat is has me concerned about the actual RPG elements and dialogue- you know, the reasons I actually buy BioWare games. It was the same way with how ME2's marketing focused on how great the gun play was and hardly mentioned the other elements- of course we now know thats becasue they cut out most of the other RPG elements. I'm hoping DA stays different than ME2's "streamlining model" but I'm not holding my breath.

TJPags wrote...

Well, but doesn't the Warden have an existing relationship with every NPC from Origins?

I mean, if we do a Qunari invasion game, would make sense to have the Warden deal with them, too, and for Sten to appear, no?
 

No, I mean, outside of Morrigan, its possible to kill off all of the other companions. Morrigan survives Origins no matter what. And to boot, Morrigan is intricately tied in with the plot- being able to be the father to an Old God Baby is a significant thing; even if you aren't the father, so long as you did the DR, you had a role in creating the OGB.

phaonica wrote...

I think a DLC or expansion where the OGB turned out to be something of a big deal would be fun. But if we canhave DLC in a world where the Warden didn't exist, and a DLC where I play as Leliana, even though I didn't care that much for Leliana, and obviously I am not Leliana, then I can see playing a DLC as an imported or AU Warden who did the DR and was searching for Morrigan. It could be considered AU if you want, but in that case every single one of us has a different AU story, so it's not really a big deal.

Right- if BioWare can bother throwing resources at alternate universe DLC's like Darkspawn Chronicles or Leliana's Song, they surely could make a Morrigan-centric DLC if they wanted.

phaonica wrote..

I get this sinking feeling every time  I see this quote. It makes me think that DG wants us to accept that  Morrigan's story is tied to Thedas' story in a way that the Warden's  story is only tied to the Blight, therefore the story of Thedas and  Morrigan goes on without the Warden. But for a lot of us, the Warden's  story was not *just* about the Blight. Just because a new story doesn't  entail a Blight, doens't necessarily mean that our Warden wouldn't find  something about it to be of interest and worthy of taking action,  *especially* if it involved the OGB and Morrigan.

And thats my fundamental problem with DA as a franchise right now. Its entirely possible that maybe we play as the Warden again, but, maybe we never do. If that was the end of the Warden, you;ve got to at least show them walking off into the sunset with some epic music playing- don't just cram it into a lame powerpoint slide! If the Warden got some resolution to what Morrigan and the OGB were up to and then he went off to his calling after saying goodbye to Morrigan- as sad as that may be, it would be an ending, which is better than the rubbish we've got now.

If they didn't offer the choice to search for Morrigan, I wouldn't be worked up about this as much. But the fact that they specifically give you the choice to state you'll search for Morrigan is just baiting the player's expectations. Then when the devs say Morrigan's story isn't over yet, its only rational that if you romanced Morrigan, that you;d expect the Warden to be a factor in Morrigan's continuing story.

I don't know....like I've said, resolution to the Warden/Morrigan/OGB plotline is tantamount for me staying interested in DA and really in my faith that BIoWare can tell well crafted stories. If they just write that off or ignore it, I'll really lose alot of respect for them.

Modifié par Brockololly, 02 août 2010 - 03:14 .

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, but doesn't the Warden have an existing relationship with every NPC from Origins?

I mean, if we do a Qunari invasion game, would make sense to have the Warden deal with them, too, and for Sten to appear, no?
 

No, I mean, outside of Morrigan, its possible to kill off all of the other companions. Morrigan survives Origins no matter what. And to boot, Morrigan is intricately tied in with the plot- being able to be the father to an Old God Baby is a significant thing; even if you aren't the father, so long as you did the DR, you had a role in creating the OGB.

Wait - I'm SURE that Morrigan gives you the same option to send her away during conversations that everyone else does . . .doesn't she? 

[ximena]

TJPags wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, but doesn't the Warden have an existing relationship with every NPC from Origins?

I mean, if we do a Qunari invasion game, would make sense to have the Warden deal with them, too, and for Sten to appear, no?
 

No, I mean, outside of Morrigan, its possible to kill off all of the other companions. Morrigan survives Origins no matter what. And to boot, Morrigan is intricately tied in with the plot- being able to be the father to an Old God Baby is a significant thing; even if you aren't the father, so long as you did the DR, you had a role in creating the OGB.

Wait - I'm SURE that Morrigan gives you the same option to send her away during conversations that everyone else does . . .doesn't she? 

But she comes back for the DR, I think. o:

[TJPags]

ximena wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, but doesn't the Warden have an existing relationship with every NPC from Origins?

I mean, if we do a Qunari invasion game, would make sense to have the Warden deal with them, too, and for Sten to appear, no?
 

No, I mean, outside of Morrigan, its possible to kill off all of the other companions. Morrigan survives Origins no matter what. And to boot, Morrigan is intricately tied in with the plot- being able to be the father to an Old God Baby is a significant thing; even if you aren't the father, so long as you did the DR, you had a role in creating the OGB.

Wait - I'm SURE that Morrigan gives you the same option to send her away during conversations that everyone else does . . .doesn't she? 

But she comes back for the DR, I think. o:

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Makes sense, now that I think about it.

Okay, ignore me . . . .  . nothing to see here . . . . .

[Axekix]

Brockololly wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


It's already happening bit by bit. A few weeks ago nobody was talking about Morrigan or DR. Now we have several high ranking staff at Bioware saying how Morrigan will be back and even Gaider hinting at Warden finding her.

I missed this.  Anybody have a link? 

Right here:

David Gaider wrote...

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely toget. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.

Ooh, just got back.  Thanks!

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

That is good news to hear even if it is just a "hint". Finally some good news from the gaming world for me. There has been so much letdown in the the month of July. DA2 looking very strange, SC2's whole battlenet/Real-ID friend system. Activision just ruined Blizzard's reputation in about five days that is quite impressive. Infinity Ward and now Blizzard; I'm actually sorta happy EA got to BioWare instead of Activision.

[Master Shiori]

phaonica wrote...

I get this sinking feeling every time I see this quote. It makes me think that DG wants us to accept that Morrigan's story is tied to Thedas' story in a way that the Warden's story is only tied to the Blight, therefore the story of Thedas and Morrigan goes on without the Warden. But for a lot of us, the Warden's story was not *just* about the Blight. Just because a new story doesn't entail a Blight, doens't necessarily mean that our Warden wouldn't find something about it to be of interest and worthy of taking action, *especially* if it involved the OGB and Morrigan.

That's how I believe it will go down.

DR was basically the beginning of Morrigan's story which goes way past Origins and the Warden. When we do see her again she will be as important as she was in DA:O, but the story will be hers and won't include the Warden.
Unless we get a "Search for Morri" DLC before the end of 2011, we can forget about having a reunion between her and the Warden on screen. In that case the best you're looking at is a powerpoint slide or 2 that tell you how Morri got reunited with her old lover after her story is done.

That is, ofc, asuming that GD will be gracious enough to give us such an ending.

The very last thing I can see happening at this point is for us to play as the Warden again in DA3.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
I get this sinking feeling every time I see this quote. It makes me think that DG wants us to accept that Morrigan's story is tied to Thedas' story in a way that the Warden's story is only tied to the Blight, therefore the story of Thedas and Morrigan goes on without the Warden. But for a lot of us, the Warden's story was not *just* about the Blight. Just because a new story doesn't entail a Blight, doens't necessarily mean that our Warden wouldn't find something about it to be of interest and worthy of taking action, *especially* if it involved the OGB and Morrigan.

That's not what pissing me off personally. I have already accepted the possibility of the Warden never meeting Morrigan. Doesn't mean I would be against a reunion, but they never seeing each other again would be a bittersweet and acceptable ending in my books.

What's pissing me off (a lot) is the Awakening epilogue, as it implies a lackluster ending while simultaneously promising a continuation. If they don't announce an expansion soon, this would be the worst epilogue I've seen in years.  

[Petehog]

@knightofphoenix



But there were others that were sort of the same as well. Warden's Keep had the whole issue with Avernus and allowing him to study, etc. But it gave the impression that there might be more in the future.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Petehog wrote...

@knightofphoenix

But there were others that were sort of the same as well. Warden's Keep had the whole issue with Avernus and allowing him to study, etc. But it gave the impression that there might be more in the future.

It's not the same. The Avernus issue is similar to that of the Architect or the OGB in that the consequences of such a *choice* are not presented in the game and that's fine. The Warden doesn't have to deal with everything that happens.

The Awakening epilogue on the otherhand is talking about our character dissapearing for no reason in a ridiculous fashion (especially when King Consort), which is completely outside our power (while the above choices are choices), while simultaneously almost gauranteeing a continuation, but with no expansion in sight.

Now if an Waden expansion is announced, then this would not be a problem. But right now, our Wardens are basically suspended in the air, with all of us not knowing if his / her story ended or is to be continued.