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[brewmaster]

After playing DA:A and reading some of Gaider's comments I've come to the conclusion that I don't want a sequel to the Morrigan romance anymore. Bioware will just mess it up.



I've accepted the ending in DA:O. My Warden is pretty busy climbing over some mountains and he won't find anything at all.

Not every hero gets his girl. A death in sorrow and grief is also fitting.

[Jarlof Seoul]

Brockololly wrote...

Reading through the DA2 forums really makes me sad. As if this thread wasn't a downer already, here goes! Incoming mini rant!

FIrst you've got this thread:


Less voice acting, more player options and game content- you've got your typical back and forth over voiced PC and what not but its just a damn shame reading from some of the long time posters like LadyShayna and really reflects how far DA2 is seemingly straying from the games like BG that made BioWare what it is today. *sigh*

Then you have this comment by Gaider today:

David Gaider wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Devs make changes all the time, and they're largely for the better, and we  the fanbase largely indulge in some wankage before most of us get over  it and just enjoy the game.

True, though not everyone who was a fan of DAO is going to enjoy DA2. I think that's a given-- we're  making a lot of changes, and they're not going to be to everyone's  liking. That's true between any sequel-- you're going to win some new  fans and lose some old ones, and that's probably doubly true when you  make changes to the "formula". Everyone's free to declare what they do  or don't like and what they'd prefer to see (like we could stop them),  but treating it like it's a broken promise is, I think, taking that a  bit too far.

Its not just that quote from Gaider, as he makes a fair point to an extent. But at what point is the game not a sequel but just an entirely different thing, divorced from what you did in the original? Thats part of my problem with DA2 right now is that they're plopping that "2" on the end to reel in some fans of Origins only to have them shocked when they realize not only is the story totally disconnected, but the gameplay and presentation is too. Tossing a "2" on the title, is a promise of sorts though Gaider, it implies different things to different people (story, gameplay, presentation continuity) but it does set a certain expectation for those who played the original game.

I'm really thinking of just not buying DA2, Morrigan or not, just to do my part to not support the direction BioWare is taking with their franchises. Instead of building off of the foundation laid in Origins, they're seemingly starting over for a more mainstream, accessible reboot of DA that all the console Bros can buy up, while effectively giving the middle finger to long time fans since the days of BG. You see it in the interviews and in some of the dev posts- the whole "like it or leave it" mentality. That "Hey, its BioWare's game, we're making these changes because we want to- deal with it or GTFO" attitude is sad to see, as its like BioWare isn't even trying to market or convince fans of Origins that liked the silent PC or the PC centric gameplay to try and like DA2. They're taking their core fanbase for granted, and if they want to trade in the loyal RPG fans for ADHD  addled, beer chugging Bros, by all means BioWare, go right ahead- see how that works out for you.  I mean, everything I've read and seen thus far is like BioWare is trying their very best to make me not like this game and they have the audacity to call it a "sequel"!? Blargh......


Thirdly, you've got this thread: Morrigan's God Baby Dilemma. Its one of those Grey Warden.com articles about the OGB choice and all that. But just reading through the thread makes me ill. I do the DR almost every time I'm making a serious playthrough. I did the US once to see what it was like. But here's my problem: whenever somebody mentions how they want to see the OGB story and Morrigan and the Warden's story continued, you've got your chorus of dolts swoop in screaming " I DID THE US, THE DR ISN'T CANON- MEH!" Well, you know what? The US isn't canon either.

And thats my big problem with the DR and OGB and BioWare's choices in general. By not picking a canon, BioWare more than likely has to tread the mushy middle regarding the DR. Problem is, the US is an ending, while the DR is the beginning to a new story with the OGB. It just bothers me because inevitably, the OGB will never be a major plot point due to the whole no canon issue,  and that is horribly stupid given the supposed enormity of the choice as presented in Origins. Now BioWare could make a huge plot with the OGB for those that did the DR, but would they? And how would BioWare reconcile the OGB Morrigan and the OGB-less Morrigan?

Thats the issue- unless you're willing to create a massive amount of content that may go totally unseen, you've basically written yourselves into a corner where you're forced to write a stock cookie cutter version of Morrigan that works with or without the OGB. And I'm sorry but that would be bull**** on the same level as Ash/Kaiden on Horizon saying the EXACT same thing despite being 2 different characters. So you end up with a bland one size fits all Morrigan or you just write off the OGB, which why did it matter in the first place then if we never see the consequences from that action?

Gaider has said that the DR was the biggest choice from Origins- I just really hope they actually treat it as such going forward (with the Warden!) and not some stupid little sidequest for Hawke to cross off on his checklist to becoming the Most Important Person EVAR.

Well put. Couldn't agree more. I hope they throw us pro-OGB resolution fans a bone eventually.

[Barbarossa2010]

The US end was my end to the entire story. It was the only ending that gives closure without the endless drone of speculation or lack of predictability in the future. Whatever else happens in Thedas is not of my concern anymore. It's just not that interesting a place. My interest in DA was my Warden, his companions and the potential for a personal epic adventure. All gone in a single announcement of the sequel. When they threw him away for the sequel in favor of whatever Hawke is meant to be, or worse, try to play both ends by saying "the Warden's story isn't over," well I just have little tolerance for such nonsense. Oh well, if my Warden was only good for one story, then so be it.



I simply don't like the story telling methodology of leaving loose ends and .ppt epilogue slides, and will move on to story telling that fits my expectations of purchased entertainment. I pay way too much for these games and will not repeat, only to do this all over again.



I'm still wondering how they manage to sell the volume they do with such terrible and unfulfilling endings to stories. Like I've said, I'll be around, ME has yet to disappoint in the expectations department. That's the advantage of predictability. Plus, you actually get the impression they are listening to their base and are trying to meet the more reasonable expectations of their fans, even if they are a different sort than that of DA. I just don't get the DA Team at all, and I especially don't get their comments from a consumer standpoint. But then again, that's been a recurring theme since last Novemeber for me.

[Jarlof Seoul]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

The US end was my end to the entire story. It was the only ending that gives closure without the endless drone of speculation or lack of predictability in the future. Whatever else happens in Thedas is not of my concern anymore. It's just not that interesting a place. My interest in DA was my Warden, his companions and the potential for a personal epic adventure. All gone in a single announcement of the sequel. When they threw him away for the sequel in favor of whatever Hawke is meant to be, or worse, try to play both ends by saying "the Warden's story isn't over," well I just have little tolerance for such nonsense. Oh well, if my Warden was only good for one story, then so be it.

I simply don't like the story telling methodology of leaving loose ends and .ppt epilogue slides, and will move on to story telling that fits my expectations of purchased entertainment. I pay way too much for these games and will not repeat, only to do this all over again.

I'm still wondering how they manage to sell the volume they do with such terrible and unfulfilling endings to stories. Like I've said, I'll be around, ME has yet to disappoint in the expectations department. That's the advantage of predictability. Plus, you actually get the impression they are listening to their base and are trying to meet the more reasonable expectations of their fans, even if they are a different sort than that of DA. I just don't get the DA Team at all, and I especially don't get their comments from a consumer standpoint. But then again, that's been a recurring theme since last Novemeber for me.

I too am too busy with life responsiblities to play anything less than game of DAO caliber. I have been pretty much "retired" from gaming since 2004. I came back to play Diablo II during a deployment and played NWN2 as NWN1 was the last good RPG (my favorite genre since Ultima III-my first). I bought DAO by sheer strength of reviews, which didn't do jsutice to the actual experience. I was blown away with DAO from the beginning. That's after 20+ years of CRPG playing. The best part was difficult Morrigan romance and the DR curveball. Being in my 30s w/ children, the OGB DR struck a chord, as I've lived that kind of passion with a especial woman such as Morrigan. Same type of insistence on positive closure. My outcome I'll keep to myself, but my point is that DAO gave us a special experience. Ambiguity that DA2 and loss ends provide drive me nuts too but I can do without gaming until DA2. But If a DA3 come out and there is zero sign of Morri, then I will let it go. Would be  shame. DA should have a superior sequel, like BG had with BG2 and better yet BG:TB.

Modifié par Jarlof Seoul, 05 août 2010 - 10:06 .

[MoSa09]

Its unbelievable i beat Brock, Mr. DA 2 information

The artwork for all DA 2 races is released. Humans stay the same, and to me, it seems dwarfs are slightly improved while elves have lost some of their appeal.

Link to pic with higher resolution:

Modifié par MoSa09, 05 août 2010 - 11:39 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Greeting Morrigan-a-holics. Something's come up that I need your help with, and this thread tends to have the most comprehensive knowledge base thanks to all the modders and researchers, not to mention all the writers that have posted. Anyway, need to know, Did Gaider *ever* Confirm or Deny whether or not a Grey Warden can have children without Blood Magic or Morrigan's Ritual? I seem to recall a thread where someone asked that question and his response was that the Warden's could indeed have children with non-wardens and wardens alike, just that the Taint reduced the chance, but didn't make it impossible. Any know anything about this? Also, does someone have links to Gaider's responses? Any Help would be nice.

[Giggles_Manically]

IIRC..

Male Wardens can produce offspring with normal women.

But Gaider has said the odds of a Female Warden are almost zero, coupled with another warden and its a miracle birth. Also in the DA2 he said its a good thing that female wardens dont have children.



In short the taint reduces male ammo, while leaving women almost barren. Two wardens in short have only the smallest chance ever of having kids, and for some reason women wardens shouldnt have kids.

[Brockololly]

Well, at least we have someone besides Gaider chatting about Morrigan's future:

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Havent they already said they are NOT done with Morrigan?

We sure did! I think I was asked about a hundred times at Comic Con, and the answer's always the same: "We're not done with Morrigan's story."

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I don't mean to sound dickish, but at least having Morrigan show up in DA2 only to have Hawke deal with her is a bit like having some randow Jawa confront Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back instead of Luke- the  past history between the Warden and Morrigan is prime stuff to be played with in the future IMO.

So, you're saying I should cut any references to Morrigan from DA2? Wow. That, sir, is a brave thing to request. It's like unleashing the hounds! ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

At this point all I can say is that I personally do not believe the Morrigan fans will be disappointed by what the future has in store.

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 août 2010 - 01:40 .

[adneate]

With the number of things these guys think are good ideas and not disappointing in the least I think that's more frightening than hope inducing. I wanna see the ideas that they think will disappoint us cause I gotta say I'm totally not stoked right now when apparently I should totally be.

[phaonica]

Considering that I'm sure the devs read this thread, *surely* they have a good idea of what kind of Morrigan story we'd want to see. Not only did he specifically address Brock as a Morrigan fan who shouldn't be disappointed (assuming he knows what arguments and concerns that Brock has mentioned), but he also addressed the specific concern we have that Hawke would would get to participate in Morrigan's continued story and not the Warden. I think it's reassuring.

[Aphetto_LC]

adneate wrote...

With the number of things these guys think are good ideas and not disappointing in the least I think that's more frightening than hope inducing. I wanna see the ideas that they think will disappoint us cause I gotta say I'm totally not stoked right now when apparently I should totally be.

The constant vague answers is what kills any excitement I should have regarding any new Morrigan news.  I understand vague answers are used to not reveal to much, but there has to be a point where they will give an answer other than, "We are not done with Morrigan's story" and I do not mean 2 weeks before the release date of whatever title Morrigan returns in.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

IIRC..
Male Wardens can produce offspring with normal women.
But Gaider has said the odds of a Female Warden are almost zero, coupled with another warden and its a miracle birth. Also in the DA2 he said its a good thing that female wardens dont have children.

In short the taint reduces male ammo, while leaving women almost barren. Two wardens in short have only the smallest chance ever of having kids, and for some reason women wardens shouldnt have kids.

I don't ever recall reading that fertility for female Wardens is any more shot than for men.  The comment about it being a good thing female Wardens have low fertility was in regards to becoming broodmothers.  At their Calling, naturally, (when being turned into a broodmother would suddenly become a big issue), both male and female Wardens would be in advanced stages of the taint.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 août 2010 - 02:03 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Sorry forgot to add that part for males, males and females have an incredibly low chance each.

Gaider did say that its a good thing that femWardens cant have kids though.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sorry forgot to add that part for males, males and females have an incredibly low chance each.
Gaider did say that its a good thing that femWardens cant have kids though.

He said that on the subject of women being turned into broodmothers, low fertility was a good thing for female Wardens.  Fiona is an obvious example of a female Warden who had a healthy, untainted baby.

Here's the post in question.

David Gaider wrote...

fchopin wrote...
what do female wardens become if they are ghouls?

Let's just say the lack of female Warden fertility is probably a good thing in this particular case.

Unless you know of another place he addressed this??

Modifié par Addai67, 06 août 2010 - 02:11 .

[Addai]

glenboy24 wrote...

Greeting Morrigan-a-holics. Something's come up that I need your help with, and this thread tends to have the most comprehensive knowledge base thanks to all the modders and researchers, not to mention all the writers that have posted. Anyway, need to know, Did Gaider *ever* Confirm or Deny whether or not a Grey Warden can have children without Blood Magic or Morrigan's Ritual? I seem to recall a thread where someone asked that question and his response was that the Warden's could indeed have children with non-wardens and wardens alike, just that the Taint reduced the chance, but didn't make it impossible. Any know anything about this? Also, does someone have links to Gaider's responses? Any Help would be nice.

Many pearls of wisdom from the Maker on this subject here.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ouch Gaider can fire back, as well as he gets it.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
  Fiona is an obvious example of a female Warden who had a healthy, untainted baby.

I thought Fiona was no longer tainted at the end of the book.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
  Fiona is an obvious example of a female Warden who had a healthy, untainted baby.

I thought Fiona was no longer tainted at the end of the book.

She was still a Warden, but they had managed to turn back the work of the Architect.  Or did I misunderstand that?

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
  Fiona is an obvious example of a female Warden who had a healthy, untainted baby.

I thought Fiona was no longer tainted at the end of the book.

She was still a Warden, but they had managed to turn back the work of the Architect.  Or did I misunderstand that?

She told Maric "All the corruption has vanished... they don't think it's going to come back ... I may be the first Gray Warden who never has to endure the Calling again."

I thought that meant that not only had the accelerated taint been pushed back, but that *all* the taint was gone.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...

With the number of things these guys think are good ideas and not disappointing in the least I think that's more frightening than hope inducing. I wanna see the ideas that they think will disappoint us cause I gotta say I'm totally not stoked right now when apparently I should totally be.

Good point. I don't know, I'm hot and cold on DA2. What I could say is that should BioWare give the Warden/Morrigan story some proper closure before DA2, I'd be more willing to give DA2 a try.

But nothing released thus far has done much of anything to excite me for the supposed sequel to one of my favorite games ever- something seems wrong with that...

phaonica wrote...

Considering that I'm sure the devs read this thread, *surely* they have a good idea of what kind of Morrigan
story we'd want to see. Not only did he specifically address Brock as a Morrigan fan who shouldn't be disappointed (assuming he knows what arguments and concerns that Brock has mentioned), but he also addressed the specific concern we have that Hawke would would get to participate in Morrigan's continued story and not the Warden. I think it's reassuring.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the BioWare people are people too, and seem decent enough most of the time. But at the same time, they are trying to sell a product. Laidlaw isn't going to come on the forum adn say, "You know what? I think you'll be horribly frustrated and disappointed with how we deal with Morrigan's story! Abandon all hope!;)"
So yeah, I appreciate the sentiment from Laidlaw and will certainly keep that quote in my sig until we get some solid news on the Morri/Warden front. But I've seen the platitudes and reassurances before with ME2 and while an enjoyable game, it wasn't up to my expectations as an RPG.

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
  Fiona is an obvious example of a female Warden who had a healthy, untainted baby.

I thought Fiona was no longer tainted at the end of the book.

She was still a Warden, but they had managed to turn back the work of the Architect.  Or did I misunderstand that?

Its been a while since I've read the Calling, but my impression from the ending was that the Architect's magic had somehow affected Fiona's taint and that it basically disabled her Calling in the future and thus either weakened or disabled her Warden taint. After all, female Wardens aren't able to have children, and the fact that Fiona had the kid with Maric quite easily, was a byproduct of her disbaled taint, and thus why she needed to go back to Weisshaupt for further study. I could be wrong though...

*Edit* phaonica beat me to it with the quotes:wizard:

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 août 2010 - 03:13 .

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

Its been a while since I've read the Calling, but my impression from the ending was that the Architect's magic had somehow affected Fiona's taint and that it basically disabled her Calling in the future and thus either weakened or disabled her Warden taint. After all, female Wardens aren't able to have children, and the fact that Fiona had the kid with Maric quite easily, was a byproduct of her disbaled taint, and thus why she needed to go back to Weisshaupt for further study. I could be wrong though...

Hm, I guess I hadn't thought about it that way.  So the interference of the Architect is what made her fertile??

Architect:  Alistair, I am your father.
Alistair:

[phaonica]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the BioWare people are people too, and seem decent enough most of the time. But at the same time, they are trying to sell a product. Laidlaw isn't going to come on the forum adn say, "You know what? I think you'll be horribly frustrated and disappointed with how we deal with Morrigan's story! Abandon all hope!;)"

Well they claim that they are trying to be up front about certain changes that are being made to DA2 so that people wouldn't feel misled upon seeing the finished product. I don't see how it's more to their advantage to mislead us about Morrigan.

 After all, female Wardens aren't able to have children, and the fact that Fiona had the kid with Maric quite easily, was a byproduct of her disbaled taint, and thus why she needed to go back to Weisshaupt for further study. I could be wrong though...
*Edit* phaonica beat me to it with the quotes:wizard:

I think that darkspawn-tainted women can have children, but only very rarely and also only with others who are *not* tainted. While tainted, Fiona's chances of getting pregnant by Maric were improbable but not impossible.

[adneate]

phaonica wrote...

Well they claim that they are trying to be up front about certain changes that are being made to DA2 so that people wouldn't feel misled upon seeing the finished product. I don't see how it's more to their advantage to mislead us about Morrigan.

Reason #1

If they mislead you and you then go out and buy the game they have your money and it doesn't matter how pissed off their botched handeling of the process makes you they got your money. It's not short sighted it's capitalism.


Also I believe Morrigan will be handled like the Samara / Morinth dealy in ME2 (Why not? They took everthing else) Flemeth sends you to hunt down Morrigan as part of her loyalty mission quest then you get an epic confrontation where you can choose between the two with your dialogue wheel. Whoever you choose results in sex and cheevos, even if you're a lady Hawke, plus it unlocks their alternate armor complete with high heels. However it doesn't result in any closure or story development, since that's confusing to the billions of new players who don't know what a Morrigan is.

[phaonica]

adneate wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Well they claim that they are trying to be up front about certain changes that are being made to DA2 so that people wouldn't feel misled upon seeing the finished product. I don't see how it's more to their advantage to mislead us about Morrigan.

Reason #1

If they mislead you and you then go out and buy the game they have your money and it doesn't matter how pissed off their botched handeling of the process makes you they got your money. It's not short sighted it's capitalism.

But if you're the kind of consumer who would say "I am not willing to buy this game if it doesn't resolve the Morrigan story in a manner that I find acceptable" then chances are, you're going to wait for some spoiler info that let's you know whether or not that happens in the game. Or at the risk of being banned for even mentioning it, "ARGH mateys, we be here to make our OWN playable demo." 

Also I believe Morrigan will be handled like the Samara / Morinth dealy in ME2 (Why not? They took everthing else) Flemeth sends you to hunt down Morrigan as part of her loyalty mission quest then you get an epic confrontation where you can choose between the two with your dialogue wheel. Whoever you choose results in sex and cheevos, even if you're a lady Hawke, plus it unlocks their alternate armor complete with high heels. However it doesn't result in any closure or story development, since that's confusing to the billions of new players who don't know what a Morrigan is.

Just one more reason why Morrigan's story should be handled in an Origins expansion/DLC and not DA2.

Modifié par phaonica, 06 août 2010 - 05:43 .

[adneate]

phaonica wrote...

But if you're the kind of consumer who would say "I am not willing to buy this game if it doesn't resolve the Morrigan story in a manner that I find acceptable" then chances are, you're going to wait for some spoiler info that let's you know whether or not that happens in the game. Or at the risk of being banned for even mentioning it, "ARGH mateys, we be here to make our OWN playable demo." 

Ack! The informed consumer the enemy of capitalists everywhere! If you've read some of the thoughts of the people on these forums most don't seem to care how their favourite character is going to be treated so long as they are present in the sequel in some capacity it's enough for them. Just saying that Alistair, Morrigan and whoever else you can cram in there are going to be in DA2 will be enough to get most people to whip the Visa card out and pre-order. It doesn't matter if a bunch of people want to see it in context first and have concerns about the treatment and usage of said characters, they're going to new audiences at the expense of the old. I'm sure they believe deep down that they can get away with anything in DA2, because BioWare = Good and Good = Prints Money so therefore BioWare = Sacks of Cash Money. They could butcher the character (see Ash / Kaiden in ME2) and people will still A) Love said character to death and Ask for more cameos in everything. It doesn't make any sense but that's the way it seems to be.