16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

BioWare is a business so of course they'd want to make a DLC that they think can sell well- if thats a Morrigan DLC , then great. Its one thing to get a MOrrigan DLC though and quite another for it to do any oft the things we're hoping it may do insofar as the Warden goes. After the rubbish DR ending and the lackluster focus on story in all of the postrelease content, even if they announce a Morrigan DLC, I'm going to try not to get too excited, lest we end up being Gaider'd all over again.

Heh, funny enough LIara fans over in ME forums are also skeptical about how Bioware will handle their romance in the upcoming DLC. Guess we have something in common.

My take is that they know all too well what Morrigan fans think of the ending to her romance in Origins. We've written enough rants about it to fill several volumes of books.
With that in mind I don't believe they'll screw us over, since that would only make our whinning even more annoying.

No matter how they choose to wrap up the Morrigan/Warden romance they'll probably choose an ending that will make the majority happy, while leaving Morrigan free to be used in DA3. We'll have to wait and see what Gaider came up with.

[Brockololly]

Fair enough.

I'm just awfully skeptical that should Morrigan's story be "saved" for DA3, that what happened in Origins won't be totally watered down to the point of irrelevance by that point. Should Morrigan show up in DA3 or whenever, I'd like it if its the Morrigan that romanced the Warden and was affected by that relationship and not some stock, one size fits all Morrigan. I have my doubts....

I don't think they'd screw us over, but at the same time, I'm skeptical a DLC and a DLC budget will be adequate to give the kind of closure we want without feeling like its been rushed or cheap or just not up to par with the quality of Origins. Hopefully we get some news soon.

Funny thing is though- either any Morrigan DLC we get will take place prior to the end of Origins or the next DLC they announce will have nothing to do with Morrigan. But thats just my positive thinking for you^_^

I hope it turns out good in the end, but BioWare's efforts since the release of DAO haven't given me much reason to expect something brilliant.

[Giggles_Manically]

I am going to wait to see for the Liara DLC, Overlord was fun, if yet another Cerberus is dumb and evil plot, AGAIN.



I am unsure about what they will do with Morrigan, most likely with all the bros coming in, they wont care. However I am willing to wait and see what we get.

[Axekix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I am unsure about what they will do with Morrigan, most likely with all the bros coming in, they wont care. However I am willing to wait and see what we get.

If that trailer was anything to go by, we'll get hundreds of Morrigans in DA2! 

[Giggles_Manically]

Axekix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I am unsure about what they will do with Morrigan, most likely with all the bros coming in, they wont care. However I am willing to wait and see what we get.

If that trailer was anything to go by, we'll get hundreds of Morrigans in DA2! 

Or just people in the same outift!
With the exact same build,
and the exact same faces...
Who all look like Morrigan.....

Oh fu-

[MoSa09]

Brockololly wrote...

Ok, found this video linked on the DA2 forums and it defnitely pertains to Morrigan in Dragon Age 2...or rather not being in Dragon Age 2:

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_embedded#!

(He starts talking about Morrigan at about the 1 minute mark)

So apparently its too obvious to actually continue Morrigan's story in DA2 and we'll have to wait until they milk the DA2 cashcow dry before we do anything else with Morrigan. The whole "tease" thing is getting old though already- if they're just going to drag out Morrigan's story for a billion games without getting any closure, I don't get it.

On one hand I don't necessarily want Hawke dealing with Morrigan, yet on the other hand, for me at least, yet another game where they don't answer any questions about Morrigan just causes me to tire of DA. I like the world and all, but the primary reason I'm still invested are the characters like Morrigan. I just hate having all of this post release DLC and Awakening come out and now DA2, only to have it answer none of the questions or tie up any loose ends from Origins. Morrigan's story is a good hook after Origins, IF DA2 had been about continuing Morrigan or the Warden's story.

Hopefully this Morrigan DLC surfaces soon and gives us some closure. Cause the whole teasing more Morrigan and closure only to never come hasn't left me wanting more- its just damn irritating. Its like finishing The Empire Strikes Back only to have the next Star Wars movie be some unrelated story about some random Jawa and his Rise to Power ruling the scrapyards of Tatooine on his Sandcrawler of the Gods. MIght be a good story, but its not the one I'm interested in.

I'm just worried they drag Morrigan's story out for so long that when they eventually maybe get to a conclusion, it'll go out with a whimper instead of a bang.

After the slightly better news, that is something to be disappointed about. So we have to wait for DA 3, and then maybe its finally time to conclude her story. Which will still be at least three years from now.

After such a long time, who does really care? The game will have a new and different audience by then, people who never played DAO. Sounds very much like a generic Morrigan to me if they implement her. And the only thing that could happen after the Hawke decade i can imagine is the OGB, But that is not canon, or at least not now. That does not make many sense to me. Maybe after DA 2, its still too obvious and gets delayed for DA 4.

The only other thing i can think about that in DA 3, its less about her, finishing her personal story off in a dlc, but rather about the things she started.

In DA 2, Flemeth orchestrates the destruction of the chantry. In the meantime, she send her daughter with a different plan to support her in the future. SO after DAO and DA 2, we know both parts of the story and the final plan can come together. That does not need to involve her to a huge extent, so her personal story can be solved earlier, but the things she has done and the reasons can be kept hidden only to be revealed within DA 3. All just speculation of course.

Btw, somehow funny how Laidlaw constantly refers to community claims to justify all the decisions they took, while at the same time twist that community claims to create a truth to his liking and to justify the changes

Modifié par MoSa09, 24 août 2010 - 11:04 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Fair enough.

I'm just awfully skeptical that should Morrigan's story be "saved" for DA3, that what happened in Origins won't be totally watered down to the point of irrelevance by that point. Should Morrigan show up in DA3 or whenever, I'd like it if its the Morrigan that romanced the Warden and was affected by that relationship and not some stock, one size fits all Morrigan. I have my doubts....

I don't think they'd screw us over, but at the same time, I'm skeptical a DLC and a DLC budget will be adequate to give the kind of closure we want without feeling like its been rushed or cheap or just not up to par with the quality of Origins. Hopefully we get some news soon.

Funny thing is though- either any Morrigan DLC we get will take place prior to the end of Origins or the next DLC they announce will have nothing to do with Morrigan. But thats just my positive thinking for you^_^

I hope it turns out good in the end, but BioWare's efforts since the release of DAO haven't given me much reason to expect something brilliant.

If they can wrap it up properly in the DLC, her relationship with the Warden won't really matter in DA3. They might mention it again in epilogue slides, but that's it. The game will most likely be fully focused on Morrigan's plan and her fate. Laidlaw said she's supposed to change the world in DA3 just like Hawke is in DA2 (infact, DA2 will lay down some groundwork for Morrigan's return).

As for the DLC; Leliana's Song is proof that you can do really great story driven DLC content. I'm hoping that Morrigan DLC will turn out to be something similar.

I'm 99% certain the DLC in September will be about Morrigan and the Warden. Laidlaw, Gaider and co. have been bombarding us with clues on regular basis ("players get to revisit familiar places", "they get to meet a familiar character and address unresolved matter from Origins", "Morrigan fans might get their wish", etc.). This all sounds like a Morrigan/Warden reunion in the making.

Not yet sure what the "familiar place" is supposed to be. My guess is the Ruined Warden Tower in Korchari Wilds where Morri and Warden first met. That's the only location with any relevance to Morrigan. The other one is that certain bedroom in Redcliffe Castle...

[MoSa09]

Master Shiori wrote...
Bioware could have easily decided that catering to such a group of fans isn't worth the resources and thus leave us with what we had in Origins, even if it was a pretty "weak" ending to a romance (to put it in a most PC way possible). The fact they're actually making the DLC shows that they do care about what we think and want.
I can't say if the DLC will wrap up the romance in a satisfactory manner, but knowing how it ended in Origins makes me believe they'll try to give us an ending that will make the majority of people happy while leavig Morrigan free to be used in the future with no plot strings attached.

I hope they do it right.

That is, if that dlc is really going to happen. At the moment, we just have rumors, and even if its true, it could be a prequel about her.

And the thing is, its hard to imagine to on the hand create a satisfying romance conclusion while at the same time leave her to be free to appear in DA 3. Both seem to be close to be mutually exclusive.

Now if the OGB would be mandatory and the main plot hook of DA 3, it would be easy. Let the baby be alive and kicking, and let Morri and her Warden be off and have some fun. But giving closure that satisfies a majority (assuming they won't be by Morri telling "i am sorry, i truly love you, but it won't work out), its hard to imagine how to achieve this.

I know many people hate Mass Effect 2, but the latest dlc shows what can be done. It let you pick up on a neglected romance (confirmed),  and at the same time expanding the story of ME 2 to prepare the scene for ME 3 (confirmed).

All those things BioWare Montreal is available to do, pleasing the fans of the franchise (whatever you might think of the game in general), while BioWare Edmonton is all witty-tricky and plays the constant teasing game and release dlc that is, at best, neglectable and has close to no importance to the main story. Or to that of its sequel, it seems.

Modifié par MoSa09, 24 août 2010 - 11:06 .

[Brockololly]

MoSa09 wrote...


After such a long time, who does really care? The game will have a new and different audience by then, people who never played DAO. Sounds very much like a generic Morrigan to me if they implement her. And the only thing that could happen after the Hawke decade i can imagine is the OGB, But that is not canon, or at least not now. That does not make many sense to me. Maybe after DA 2, its still too obvious and gets delayed for DA 4.

Yeah, I don't get it. O hope BioWare has some master plan laid out and isn't just winging it, as the natural jumping off point for DA2 would be to continue Morrigan's story, OGB or not. Apparently they thought that was too obvious and wnated to go forward with their Hawke reboot of DA. Its worrisome to me in that given how DA2 is pretty much the Bro's entry point, come DA3 time, they'll be able to re-introduce Morrigan in her "hot rod samurai" form with no regard to Origins.

MoSa09 wrote...
The only other thing i can think about that in DA 3, its less about her, finishing her personal story off in a dlc, but rather about the things she started.

That could be the case- I'd just hate for Morrigan's story to end with her simply being a Plot Device and a mere shadow of her dynamic character that was developed by her relationship with the Warden in Origins.

Master Shiori wrote...

If they can wrap it up properly in the  DLC, her relationship with the Warden won't really matter in DA3. They  might mention it again in epilogue slides, but that's it. The game will  most likely be fully focused on Morrigan's plan and her fate.

So long as the possibility remains that the Old God Baby is around, the Warden is relevent to Morrigan's story, IMO. And if BioWare is saying that the DR was the biggest choice in Origins, should Morrigan show up again, they damn well better have the OGB and the DR 's ramifications playing a big part in her story. Even if the Warden and Morrigan have their relationship clarified or whatever in any DLC, should Morrigan show up again, she should be a different version of Morrigan than if you were nasty to her and ditched her in Origins. BioWare said they want the world of Dragon Age to reflect the choices we've made- those choices should include how any recurring characters are represented too, not just events.

As for the DLC; Leliana's Song is proof that you can do really great story driven DLC content. I'm hoping that Morrigan DLC will turn out to be something similar.

Yeah, Leliana's Song was decent. But up to the quality of Origins?..... maybe, but I think Leliana's Song is viewed rather favorably mostly in comparison to how absolutely crappy the other DLC has largely been. 

I'm 99% certain the DLC in September will be  about Morrigan and the Warden. Laidlaw, Gaider and co. have been  bombarding us with clues on regular basis ("players get to revisit  familiar places", "they get to meet a familiar character and address  unresolved matter from Origins", "Morrigan fans might get their wish",  etc.). This all sounds like a Morrigan/Warden reunion in the making.

Oh boy- Have you learned nothing of what it means to be a Morrigan fan, Shiori? Don't give in to hope, its a four letter word here. I hope you're right but there has been far too many dashed dreams and crushed hopes in this thread for me to get too excited over rumors. I think  this thread needs a friendly reminder;)

Not yet sure what the "familiar place" is supposed to be. My guess is the  Ruined Warden Tower in Korchari Wilds where Morri and Warden first met.  That's the only location with any relevance to Morrigan. The other one  is that certain bedroom in Redcliffe Castle...

Korcari Wilds could be interesting, but I'd really we go to the Frostbacks. But being a DLC, it seems its par for the course that we'll simply be subject to another recycled area. The problem is that unless the Morrigan epilogue with her heading west is completely wrong the farthest locale west we went in Origins was probably the Deep Roads or Orzammar- and lord knows we've been there enough. It would be neat to return to Highever, but of course that would only be meaningful to human nobles....although Flemeth was from Highever waaaaay back, right?

MoSa09 wrote...

All those things BioWare Montreal is  available to do, pleasing the fans of the franchise (whatever you might  think of the game in general), while BioWare Edmonton is all  witty-tricky and plays the constant teasing game and release dlc that  is, at best, neglectable and has close to no importance to the main  story. Or to that of its sequel, it seems.

Point of clarification- both the ME and DA teams are in Edmonton. I'm not sold on ME pleasing its fans though. I really don't care for that franchise much anymore but my Shep romanced Ash in ME1 and her cameo or Liara's cameo in DA2 were weak. And I can't imagine that many of the squadmates from ME2 will return in a meaningful way in ME3 given its BioWare's mantra that if a character is killable in one game at best they return as a cookie cutter cameo.

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 août 2010 - 12:40 .

[GardenSnake]

At about 19:30 they start talking about how Bio has started dumbing down its games. Good segment.



Revisiting familiar places? I'd say a decemated Lothering could fit the bill no? Imagine finding Morri there of all places. It could potentially work very well for some of the characters. Imagine walking into the tavern and having Leli laugh and recall how you two first mett. Same thing with Sten. But if the dlc is Morrigan centric then I'd bet it's in the Wilds.

[Barbarossa2010]

MoSa09 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
Bioware could have easily decided that catering to such a group of fans isn't worth the resources and thus leave us with what we had in Origins, even if it was a pretty "weak" ending to a romance (to put it in a most PC way possible). The fact they're actually making the DLC shows that they do care about what we think and want.
I can't say if the DLC will wrap up the romance in a satisfactory manner, but knowing how it ended in Origins makes me believe they'll try to give us an ending that will make the majority of people happy while leavig Morrigan free to be used in the future with no plot strings attached.

I hope they do it right.

That is, if that dlc is really going to happen. At the moment, we just have rumors, and even if its true, it could be a prequel about her.

And the thing is, its hard to imagine to on the hand create a satisfying romance conclusion while at the same time leave her to be free to appear in DA 3. Both seem to be close to be mutually exclusive.

Now if the OGB would be mandatory and the main plot hook of DA 3, it would be easy. Let the baby be alive and kicking, and let Morri and her Warden be off and have some fun. But giving closure that satisfies a majority (assuming they won't be by Morri telling "i am sorry, i truly love you, but it won't work out), its hard to imagine how to achieve this.

I know many people hate Mass Effect 2, but the latest dlc shows what can be done. It let you pick up on a neglected romance (confirmed),  and at the same time expanding the story of ME 2 to prepare the scene for ME 3 (confirmed).

All those things BioWare Montreal is available to do, pleasing the fans of the franchise (whatever you might think of the game in general), while BioWare Edmonton is all witty-tricky and plays the constant teasing game and release dlc that is, at best, neglectable and has close to no importance to the main story. Or to that of its sequel, it seems.

Agree.  I tip my hat to the ME Team.  Many, many criticize Mass Effect, and say what you will about the franchise, but they are on target with telling an epic story.  They may release less DLC, but what they do release approaches pure gold.  The DLC, without exception, is on target and actually adds to the ME experience.  I don't have any delusions about ME, but what they do, they do superbly.  Best end game scenarios, bar none, I've personally ever played.  There is no comparison to the experience of ME1's ending and that of DA:O's DR ending.  If "Dark Fantasy" is the excuse, then I equate Dark Fantasy with character neutering story telling and contrived endings and plot hooks used for nothing but marketing purposes.  Give me the other one anytime as long as it's done big and done right. 

Oh, and the ME developers also seem eager to please the fans and not themselves (or at least have well mastered the illusion). 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Idk, I prefer a game that ends with me in tears than one that, while definately epic, didn't really make that much of an impact on me. Of course, that's just my opinion and taste. I think DA:O is superior to ME in almost every way, but I love ME and while I haven't tried their DLCs, I have read about them enough to know that they are better than what Origins had (barring Shale and Leliana).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2010 - 01:19 .

[Barbarossa2010]

It's definitely in one's personal tastes no doubt. I could have dealt with Origins much better had I known it was not (by all accounts) a one shot deal. Tears are good, and the tears shed over a sacrificial Warden were well worth the effort. A truly epic end.



Regarding ME, you really ought to try "Bring down the Sky." You (well at least I did) feel the pinch there. And (while many non-shooter types are critical of it) Pinnacle Station was just pure fun. I indulged my lower impulses in there for many a night earning the grand prize.

[MKDAWUSS]

Brockololly wrote...

Not yet sure what the "familiar place" is supposed to be. My guess is the  Ruined Warden Tower in Korchari Wilds where Morri and Warden first met.  That's the only location with any relevance to Morrigan. The other one  is that certain bedroom in Redcliffe Castle...

Korcari Wilds could be interesting, but I'd really we go to the Frostbacks. But being a DLC, it seems its par for the course that we'll simply be subject to another recycled area. The problem is that unless the Morrigan epilogue with her heading west is completely wrong the farthest locale west we went in Origins was probably the Deep Roads or Orzammar- and lord knows we've been there enough. It would be neat to return to Highever, but of course that would only be meaningful to human nobles....although Flemeth was from Highever waaaaay back, right?

Is there enough current material that could be rehashed into makeshift Frostback Mountain territory? Same for the Wilds, but outside of it being where Morrigan grew up (and where she and the Warden met) what value does it have?

As for Flemeth's connection to Highever, isn't that where one of her lovers/spouses was from and where she was imprisoned? If the Warden's headin' to Highever, THAT. BETTER. NOT. BE. ONE. SIZE. FITS. ALL. The Cousland Wardens should have things tailored to them considering that that's where he was born and raised and is still next in line to the Teyrn of Highever (unless he once again has a nephew or niece). For that dynamic to be ignored would be a big "up yours" TBH.


Then again, who am I kidding, the entire Morrigan DLC's prolly gonna' be a one-size-fits-all, just like the DR...

[Brockololly]

MKDAWUSS wrote...


Is there enough current material that could be rehashed into makeshift Frostback Mountain territory? Same for the Wilds, but outside of it being where Morrigan grew up (and where she and the Warden met) what value does it have?

The only thing that we know of that makes the Korcari Wilds significant would be thats where Morrigan grew up with Flemeth and where we met her. Instead of having Morrigan go disappear into Orlais across the Frostbacks it would have been even more mysterious had she disappeared deep into the Uncharted lands south of the Korcari Wilds which is supposed to be like a frozen wastland or something.

As for how they could recycle the Frostbacks, the area right outside of Orzammar is technically the Frostbacks, but I'd think if you were searching for Morrigan in the Frostbacks it would be a bit more , mountainous? If they're just recycling areas for a DLC yet again, I don't know how much hope I'd hold out for the overall quality.

MKDAWUSS wrote...
As for Flemeth's connection to Highever, isn't that where one of her lovers/spouses was from and where she was imprisoned? If the Warden's headin' to Highever, THAT. BETTER. NOT. BE. ONE. SIZE. FITS. ALL. The Cousland Wardens should have things tailored to them considering that that's where he was born and raised and is still next in line to the Teyrn of Highever (unless he once again has a nephew or niece). For that dynamic to be ignored would be a big "up yours" TBH.

Yeah, I can't remember exactly, but I thought at least one of the tales mentioned Flemeth being from Highever. But that was a looooong time ago. DOes anyone know if they mentione exactly timeline wise when Flemeth's story sort of began?

MKDAWUSS wrote...
Then again, who am I kidding, the entire Morrigan DLC's prolly gonna' be a one-size-fits-all, just like the DR...

I'm worried that may very well be the case- maybe at most giving us one line acknowledging the romance. Bah.

[ximena]

Brockololly wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...
As for Flemeth's connection to Highever, isn't that where one of her lovers/spouses was from and where she was imprisoned? If the Warden's headin' to Highever, THAT. BETTER. NOT. BE. ONE. SIZE. FITS. ALL. The Cousland Wardens should have things tailored to them considering that that's where he was born and raised and is still next in line to the Teyrn of Highever (unless he once again has a nephew or niece). For that dynamic to be ignored would be a big "up yours" TBH.

Yeah, I can't remember exactly, but I thought at least one of the tales mentioned Flemeth being from Highever. But that was a looooong time ago. DOes anyone know if they mentione exactly timeline wise when Flemeth's story sort of began?

It was during the days before the Couslands got Highever. Centuries ago. A really loooooooooooooong time ago.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I was thinking since she fled to the wilds she would be closer than Highever since well Highever is on the north coast and the wilds is deep in the south.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 25 août 2010 - 07:38 .

[Master Shiori]

MoSa09 wrote...


That is, if that dlc is really going to happen. At the moment, we just have rumors, and even if its true, it could be a prequel about her.

And the thing is, its hard to imagine to on the hand create a satisfying romance conclusion while at the same time leave her to be free to appear in DA 3. Both seem to be close to be mutually exclusive.

Now if the OGB would be mandatory and the main plot hook of DA 3, it would be easy. Let the baby be alive and kicking, and let Morri and her Warden be off and have some fun. But giving closure that satisfies a majority (assuming they won't be by Morri telling "i am sorry, i truly love you, but it won't work out), its hard to imagine how to achieve this.

I know many people hate Mass Effect 2, but the latest dlc shows what can be done. It let you pick up on a neglected romance (confirmed),  and at the same time expanding the story of ME 2 to prepare the scene for ME 3 (confirmed).

All those things BioWare Montreal is available to do, pleasing the fans of the franchise (whatever you might think of the game in general), while BioWare Edmonton is all witty-tricky and plays the constant teasing game and release dlc that is, at best, neglectable and has close to no importance to the main story. Or to that of its sequel, it seems.

Err, how so?

Brock posted a possible ending a few pages back that was based on the ending to Jaheira's romance from BG2:ToB.

Something similar would fit Morrigan and the Warden perfectly.

I think you're confusing an end to Morrigan/Warden romance with the end to Morrigan's story, while those 2 aren't connected in any way. Even the DR and OGB are more about Morrigan and her plans then about the Warden.
Sure, with each DA game importing information from it's predecesor (even if the import can end up being messed up ala Awakening) it shouldn't be a problem to keep track of changes to Morrigan during DA:O or of the relationship between her and the Warden.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 25 août 2010 - 09:48 .

[MoSa09]

Brockololly wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

All those things BioWare Montreal is  available to do, pleasing the fans of the franchise (whatever you might  think of the game in general), while BioWare Edmonton is all  witty-tricky and plays the constant teasing game and release dlc that  is, at best, neglectable and has close to no importance to the main  story. Or to that of its sequel, it seems.

Point of clarification- both the ME and DA teams are in Edmonton. I'm not sold on ME pleasing its fans though. I really don't care for that franchise much anymore but my Shep romanced Ash in ME1 and her cameo or Liara's cameo in DA2 were weak. And I can't imagine that many of the squadmates from ME2 will return in a meaningful way in ME3 given its BioWare's mantra that if a character is killable in one game at best they return as a cookie cutter cameo.

Oh sorry, my bad. I thought they were in different cities. Anyway, i agree that the way all ME 1 LI were treated in ME 2 were weak. But as said, the latest dlc "Lair of the Shadowbroker" will deal with one of the former love interests and solve that matter. And it will also expand the story of ME 2.

Anyway, its not about the Mass Effect franchise and if you like it or not. Its all about that the Mass Effect team delivers additional content that caters to the fans, the love interests and expand the story while the DA franchise does not seem to take any interest in any of that. The only thing they tell is "DA is all about Thedas". Wich, btw, is not true. Given the current information, DA is about characters shaping Thedas, foremost Flemeth and Morrigan that appear in more than one game. So its not about Thedas, but still about characters shaping the world. Its just not the player characters, but rather NPC's close to the player characters. Which also leads to all those unresolved plots.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Oh, and the ME developers also
seem eager to please the fans and not themselves (or at least have well
mastered the illusion). 

Excellent point. I sometimes get that vibe that some on the writing team have some kind of ego-trip going on

Master Shiori wrote...
Err, how so? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

Brock posted a possible ending a few pages back that was based on the ending to Jaheira's romance from BG2:ToB.

Something similar would fit Morrigan and the Warden perfectly.

I
think you're confusing an end to Morrigan/Warden romance with the end
to Morrigan's story, while those 2 aren't conected in any way. Even the
DR and OGB are more about Morrigan and her plans then about the Warden.
Sure,
with each DA game importing information from it's predecesor (even if
the import can end up being messed up ala Awakening) it shouldn't be a
problem to keep track of changes to Morrigan during DA:O or of the
relationship between her and the Warden.

Oh, i agree, the BG 2 Jaheira ending might be a satisfying one. But the point is as follows.

What about the Warden then, and Morrigan's possible role in DA 3. If she and the Warden reach some mutual agreement to stay together while let each toher have theirn own time, she is free to appear in DA 3. But what about her changes in character the Warden caused? What about him in DA 3? Or does the whole game coindidentally happen while he is away and so busy that he has no time to show up while important event unfold and his love is going to change the world forever?
What her impact? If you wanna respect the changes and the impact the Warden has on her, you either have to create different Morrigan's in DA 3(a game where many players never played Origins before, so unlikely), or create a limited Morrigan so that the possible differences won't matter. Or create a generic one, taking agency away from the ones who indeed played the franchise since Origins. What bout if she can die, possibly by the hand of the whatever-hero of DA 3?

DA 3 is still far away, and solving the Morrigan in a dlc is nice, and especially if we get a nice ending, i am more than happy about that. Butthis creates issues for the future game that are not simply solved by claiming "they stay together and be happy, but only spent some time with each other and than part ways for a few months again".

Assuming that really happens, that creates issues as well for DA 3, and i have some fears that it will result in solving the Morrigan matter now to stop the questions and start anew with the generic Morrigan in DA 3 in a few years when the audience has changed that much that no one really cares anymore besides a few that are easily shouted down.

[Master Shiori]

MoSa09 wrote...

Oh, i agree, the BG 2 Jaheira ending might be a satisfying one. But the point is as follows.

What about the Warden then, and Morrigan's possible role in DA 3. If she and the Warden reach some mutual agreement to stay together while let each toher have theirn own time, she is free to appear in DA 3. But what about her changes in character the Warden caused? What about him in DA 3? Or does the whole game coindidentally happen while he is away and so busy that he has no time to show up while important event unfold and his love is going to change the world forever?
What her impact? If you wanna respect the changes and the impact the Warden has on her, you either have to create different Morrigan's in DA 3(a game where many players never played Origins before, so unlikely), or create a limited Morrigan so that the possible differences won't matter. Or create a generic one, taking agency away from the ones who indeed played the franchise since Origins. What bout if she can die, possibly by the hand of the whatever-hero of DA 3?

Past Origins, Warden's story is done and so is his part in Morrigan's destiny. Just because he might have been her lover and fathered her child doesn't mean he needs to follow her around and take part in every story that involves Morrigan. Just because he and Morri might get together again in a DLC doesn't mean she'll reveal her plan to him or even take him along. Sometimes you need to leave the person you love behind in order to protect them.

As for Warden's impact on Morrigan that isn't as big as you seem to think. He taught her the value of love and friendship, as well as had an impact on some of her views of the world. These, however, are tied to the Warden himself and wouldn't really impact Morrigan's view of someone she doesn't know.
In DA3 anyone who deals with Morrigan ad wants to become her friend would need to spend time and effort on cracking through her shell, just as the Warden did.
So yes, you're looking at generic Morrigan modified a bit by your decisions in Origins (provided you import your save into DA2 and from there into DA3).

Whoever the protagonist will be in DA3, he/she will shape Morrigan's destiny with his/her choices. However, that protagonist will still be controlled by us so it's likely that we'll have some control over what happens to Morrigan.

MoSa09 wrote...
DA 3 is still far away, and solving the Morrigan in a dlc is nice, and especially if we get a nice ending, i am more than happy about that. Butthis creates issues for the future game that are not simply solved by claiming "they stay together and be happy, but only spent some time with each other and than part ways for a few months again".

Assuming that really happens, that creates issues as well for DA 3, and i have some fears that it will result in solving the Morrigan matter now to stop the questions and start anew with the generic Morrigan in DA 3 in a few years when the audience has changed that much that no one really cares anymore besides a few that are easily shouted down.

That does very little for DA3, apart from maybe referring to Morrigan's relationship with the Warden ingame and/or in the epilogue slides.

Morrigan will be her default self because she still doesn't trust everyone she meets or makes friends easily. She will have subtle changes based on how we handled her in DA:O, but I wouldn't expect drastic change to her personality. You need to present her in a way that satisfies the old fans who know her already as well as give a clear idea of who she is and what drives her to new players. That means spending time to get to know her and understand her motivations. I asume, since she's so important in DA3, that we'll finally find out what she has planned and be able to either aid her or influence the outcome of her actions.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 25 août 2010 - 12:49 .

[MoSa09]

Master Shiori wrote...

Past Origins, Warden's story is done and so is his part in Morrigan's destiny. Just because he might have been her lover and fathered her child doesn't mean he needs to follow her around and take part in every story that involves Morrigan. Just because he and Morri might get together again in a DLC doesn't mean she'll reveal her plan to him or even take him along. Sometimes you need to leave the person you love behind in order to protect them.

Of course you as the Warden do not need to be around watching everything she does. But if she is up somewhere in Thedas, changing the world and setting her hidden plan in motion, endangering her life in the process, the Warden justs waits home til she is done and comes back to tell her tales? If your lover is up to something dangerous and extremly important, you might wanna check and help out, regardless if she is leaving to protect you.

An relationship where the Wardens sits home "well, Morrigan is gone to fulil her secret plan she has hidden from me for years. She will most certainly be in great danger and will change the whole world forever, just like this Hawke guy did. But i've heard there is some new hero up there to who can fill my shoes, so i guess i do not need to worry and enjoy some time on my own here and watch some sports in tv while she is gone"??? If she is doing something of such importance, i would think is rather strange if the man who loves her and want to be with her til his death just sits home and wait tils she is done. Makes no sense at all.

And besides, you'd think she does not reveal her plan? I agree she most certainly won't reveal anything, but nothing? Part of the outcry for continuation is that people demand answers for her behaviour. Why did she left despite loving us, what does she want to do and whats so important about this.

Her responding: "sorry honey, i really love you, but i can't tell you before DA 3, and it has to be revealed b a different man than you. But we can stay together and enjoy some time until then if you wanna?" would feel badly contrived and lousy. Part of her story is people wanting answers as well as romance continuation, and you can't neglect one of the two. The are many people interested in her not because of the romance but because they wanna know what she is up to. And those people will be pretty mad or refuse to buy that dlc is its just romance and no further information.

Besides, i know i wouldn't resist her, but from a roleplaying perspective, its somewhat strange to start a relationship all over again after she just left you and broke your heart without having some kind of satisfying information (!!!) why she did so.

Master Shiori wrote...

Whoever the protagonist will be in DA3, he/she will shape Morrigan's destiny with his/her choices. However, that protagonist will still be controlled by us so it's likely that we'll have some control over what happens to Morrigan.

the point is that her destiny is started by the Warden. No matter what you decide, it was you who brought her from the Wilds. It was you who failed to turn her into templar custody and reveal her as the apostate she is. It was you who let her escape after she revealed she wants to give birth to the soul of a purified old god. No matter what you decided, you let her escape. You had no choice in the game to do so, but nevertheless it was the Warden who initially helped her to start whatever she is doing. Whatever you decide, the Warden is linked to her story and plans no matter what. And unless she is just following you along for entertainment purpose and doesn't need you at all, its also the Warden who is partially responsible she is even able to set her plan into action sometime in the future.

So no matter what, to me, she is inevitably linked to all possible Wardens. And dealing with her story and consequences would feel bad and contrived if done by someone different than the Warden. Even more so of course if that Warden is also her current lover and actively helped her with her plans through his actions and decisions.

Master Shiori wrote...

Morrigan will be her default self because she still doesn't trust everyone she meets or makes friends easily. She will have subtle changes based on how we handled her in DA:O, but I wouldn't expect drastic change to her personality. You need to present her in a way that satisfies the old fans who know her already as well as give a clear idea of who she is and what drives her to new players. That means spending time to get to know her and understand her motivations. I assume, since she's so important in DA3, that we'll finally find out what she has planned and be able to either aid her or influence the outcome of her actions.

Sure. But that only adds to me feeling arkward she needs help by or confronts a new hero to fulfil her plan while her current lover is somewhat missing and not bothered by the events.

Morrigan: "Honey, i have some extremly important to do, something i worked on for years, that might cost my life but could change the world forever. Thatt big secret i have been hiding for decades from you will finally be revealed, and i hope i am able to pull it off and survive it".
Warden: "Good luck baby, sent me a letter every once in a while if you have the time".

Does not sound very realistic to me. The only thing imaginable is that by this time, the Warden is already dead after he had his calling, and Morrigan somewhat becomes the new Flemeth. Then his absence and loss of influence about her personality might be somewhat understandable.

Modifié par MoSa09, 25 août 2010 - 02:46 .

[Master Shiori]

MoSa09 wrote...

Of course you as the Warden do not need to be around watching everything she does. But if she is up somewhere in Thedas, changing the world and setting her hidden plan in motion, endangering her life in the process, the Warden justs waits home til she is done and comes back to tell her tales? If your lover is up to something dangerous and extremly important, you might wanna check and help out, regardless if she is leaving to protect you.

An relationship where the Wardens sits home "well, Morrigan is gone to fulil her secret plan she has hidden from me for years. She will most certainly be in great danger and will change the whole world forever, just like this Hawke guy did. But i've heard there is some new hero up there to who can fill my shoes, so i guess i do not need to worry and enjoy some time on my own here and watch some sports in tv while she is gone"??? If she is doing something of such importance, i would think is rather strange if the man who loves her and want to be with her til his death just sits home and wait tils she is done. Makes no sense at all.

You're under the asumption that Morrigan will reveal her plan to the Warden. That isn't going to happen for a number of reasons, most obvious being that it would completely ruin the story of DA3.
If i have to take a guess I'd say that Morrigan and the Warden will only discuss their relationship from Origins, maybe the OGB, and will determine how that affects their future.
Or we might have the Warden leave for his Calling after finding her.

MoSa09 wrote...

And besides, you'd think she does not reveal her plan? I agree she most certainly won't reveal anything, but nothing? Part of the outcry for continuation is that people demand answers for her behaviour. Why did she left despite loving us, what does she want to do and whats so important about this.

No she won't, at least until DA3 comes out.

Once it does everyone who likes Morrigan or is curious about the consequneces of DR will get their answer, but it'll be the players that get it, not their Wardens.

MoSa09 wrote...

Her responding: "sorry honey, i really love you, but i can't tell you before DA 3, and it has to be revealed b a different man than you. But we can stay together and enjoy some time until then if you wanna?" would feel badly contrived and lousy. Part of her story is people wanting answers as well as romance continuation, and you can't neglect one of the two. The are many people interested in her not because of the romance but because they wanna know what she is up to. And those people will be pretty mad or refuse to buy that dlc is its just romance and no further information.

Besides, i know i wouldn't resist her, but from a roleplaying perspective, its somewhat strange to start a relationship all over again after she just left you and broke your heart without having some kind of satisfying information (!!!) why she did so.

If you want a chance for a romance continuation get the DLC and you might have your wish.
If you want to find out what Morrigan has planned and how OGB ties into this get DA3.

The DLC is there for those who romanced Morrigan and want proper closure. It's not supposed to shed light on her plans. And you won't "romance" her again. You'll most likely discuss your former relationship and see where to go from there. Depending on what Bioware has in mind it might go from getting back together with Morrigan to officialy breaking it off for good.

MoSa09 wrote...

the point is that her destiny is started by the Warden. No matter what you decide, it was you who brought her from the Wilds. It was you who failed to turn her into templar custody and reveal her as the apostate she is. It was you who let her escape after she revealed she wants to give birth to the soul of a purified old god. No matter what you decided, you let her escape. You had no choice in the game to do so, but nevertheless it was the Warden who initially helped her to start whatever she is doing. Whatever you decide, the Warden is linked to her story and plans no matter what. And unless she is just following you along for entertainment purpose and doesn't need you at all, its also the Warden who is partially responsible she is even able to set her plan into action sometime in the future.

So no matter what, to me, she is inevitably linked to all possible Wardens. And dealing with her story and consequences would feel bad and contrived if done by someone different than the Warden. Even more so of course if that Warden is also her current lover and actively helped her with her plans through his actions and decisions.

Err, no. Warden isn't linked to Morrigan's story after Origins. Morrigan was linked to the Warden.
His part in her story ended after he accepted or refused the DR. From there on it's all about Morrigan and her plans and not Warden himself. His part in this is over.

Expecting him to be a protagonist in DA3 simply because he might have been he lover and the father of OGB is unrealistic. Sure, it would be nice for all of us who romanced her but it simply isn't happening.

MoSa09 wrote...

Sure. But that only adds to me feeling arkward she needs help by or confronts a new hero to fulfil her plan while her current lover is somewhat missing and not bothered by the events.

Morrigan: "Honey, i have some extremly important to do, something i worked on for years, that might cost my life but could change the world forever. Thatt big secret i have been hiding for decades from you will finally be revealed, and i hope i am able to pull it off and survive it".
Warden: "Good luck baby, sent me a letter every once in a while if you have the time".

Does not sound very realistic to me. The only thing imaginable is that by this time, the Warden is already dead after he had his calling, and Morrigan somewhat becomes the new Flemeth. Then his absence and loss of influence about her personality might be somewhat understandable.

Again, you're under the asumption that Morrigan will reveal her plans to the Warden in DLC. She won't.

You'll have no more knowledge of what she plans to do or what will happen to her then you did by the end of Origins. Therefore, the conversation you posted will never take place.

And there's nothing that says the Warden needs to be dead by DA3 or that Morrigan will end up possessed by Flemeth at some point. I guess it might happen, but right now it's about as likely as Andraste being resurected or the Maker coming to visit Thedas.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 25 août 2010 - 03:45 .

[MoSa09]

Master Shiori wrote...

Again, you're under the asumption that Morrigan will reveal her plans to the Warden in DLC. She won't.

To sum up, i am not under the assumption she will. On the contrary, i expect she won't.

What i said is that it would feel contrived that she doesn't, to force players to still be excited about her and her plans. I claimed it simply doesn't make sense she won't tell. There is only one reason she won't tell, and that is not to spoil DA 3. And while that is a valid reason, its not a storytelling reason, and each story ruled by real-world necessies always feel contrived and wrong

And i never denied that the Warden's part in her story is over. As above, i just claimed it feels contrived to do so.

Its not generic storytelling, but some contrived storytelling where the ultimate goal is to leave people craving for more by not proper closing stories and more than anything, brushing all logic aside to achieve this.

I am not claiming the things i mentioned will happen, i said from a pure logical point of view, how BW is telling her story will most probably not be the shiniest example of storytelling, but dictated by the need to create tension to the very end and sacrificing other aspects along the way.

[Brockololly]

Nice back and forth MoSa and Shiori!

I'd agree with much of what MoSa has said in regards to the Warden and Morrigan however. Sure, if we get a Jaheira style romance resolution in any DLC (which I still think is far fetched), the DR and the OGB and Morrigan's plans HAVE to come up. To just meet Morrigan again and only discuss the romance would be beyond cheap- the whole reason she left was due to her plan. And no doubt should any Morrigan DLC take place post Awakening, then she likely would have had the OGB already. So unless Morrigan just ditched it on the road somewhere the OGB plot would come up in any reunion. To not deal with that somehow would feel lazy and cheap.

Obviously though, they're not going to spill all the beans about Morrigan's plans in a DLC. But to just have her plan uncovered by some New Epic Hero of Thedas in DA3 would be idiotic (unless we're playing as the Old God Kid there...). Perhaps they pull an Awakening: In Awakening Alistair whispers something to the PC if they were lovers. Maybe in any DLC, MOrrigan whispers or explains in private what the deal is to the Warden, while keeping the player left in the dark? Not desirable, but it would be better than just trying to ignore it.

And another point- one of the many problems I had with the DR was that Morrigan never gave any reason as to why the Warden could not come with her. Should we get any reunion DLC, they would NEED to address why the Warden wasn't supposed to follow her. And if it ends all Jaheira like, they would need a valid reason why in DA3 when Morrigan is carrying out the most important plan in her life, why isn't the Warden who is possibly her lover and father of her child, not right there with her? Sure they could throw out the ol' "Oh he's on his Calling" or some other rubbish excuse like they did with the LI's in Awakening, but thats weak.



I'm just awfully pessimistic with the direction BioWare is taking Dragon Age as a franchise and the fact that nothing post launch has met the same quality as Origins has me very very doubtful as to the future quality of the games. The world is interesting and the stories are good, but its my impression that the other aspects of game development or the desire to try and shake things up for the sake of shaking things up are weakening the story focus.

I hope Morrigan and the Warden get a satisfying ending, whether thats DLC, another expack, or DA3. But I've given up hoping we'll see any meaningful resolution from BioWare. Its likely reading all the discouraging DA2 news .....



On that note and briefly, Off Topic: http://www.gamersdai...52-page-1.html' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'> DA2 will only be about 20-30 hours long or the length of ME2. If the core game is going to be that short, I'm not expecting much from any Morrigan DLC....

[ximena]

o_o

Is this... new?

Caught sight of it before logging off and now I feel too awake.



Edric says,

Modifié par ximena, 25 août 2010 - 04:14 .