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[Shade of Wolf]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

And time for a Bioware
compliment../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png: While I think they need their heads examined in their story romances *cough...Dragon Age...cough*cough*, Bioware has proven to me that they can at least field a worthy shooter.


I'll report back in on my progress in bagging Morinth...../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

Putting aside the Dark Ritual element, did you enjoy the rest of the character development that led up to the end of
the game though? You've made some impassioned posts on the subject, so I'm guessing its that one element that's the "bitter taste" at the end of the game.

Honestly, I absolutely loved the game, ESPECIALLY for the character development.  Hell, I'm still on this board after 5 months because the DA Team completely captured my imagination.  But, that has its limits. 

I've spouted and vented for months about the contrived nature of the DR, the character of Morrigan and how the team had to rob my Warden of who he was in order for their story to be told.  My first run through the game itself was a real labor for me; fun definitely, but a trial and error grind to the hilt, having no real experience in managing stats, levelling, etc.  It was at the point that I felt fairly confindent in my use of the combat system and what I was supposed to do, that my Warden got the s#it kicked out of him from a really unexpected direction.  You know full well how I feel about the DR for a romancing Warden, so I won't go into that here. 

What some people would call "an amazing and interesting twist to the story," was, in the end, an insult to me. Too much time spent trying to master the combat system to be looted of my personality all for the sake of a plot hook. My interest went out the window and I dropped the game right there.  I believed for a while that this was the common method of the RPG; dark, sinister and masochistic. In short, I thought this just wasn't for players like me, fairly serious gamer that I am.  I finally did go back and haphazardly finished off the Archdemon after several tries just to get the achievement, plus I have a thing about finishing games, even if they suck. 

It wasn't until I joined the social site, that I realized I wasn't alone. Veteran and newb alike seemed pretty pissed about this part of the game.  In truth, I should be telling you that this was the single best and most absorbing game I've ever played.  As it is, it's currently only the most absorbing game I've ever played.  So yeah, the DR was truly the only thing that left the bitter taste.  But it was very bitter, and I still say BW made a mistake with it.  Hooking players through subtlety is a much more effective tool than kicking them in the balls. 

So, yeah, you nailed it.  What would have otherwise been one of my greatest gaming experiences, ended up just leaving a bitter taste.  Just too hard to get past that.  Feeling like a hero at the end of a game (Sheperd) is just way better to me than feeling like a gelded chump.  What can I say? 

I have to admit that I quite liked the whole Dark Ritual plot, it is a Dark Fantasy, but I can understand how it is a pain for those who had to make Alistair/ Loghain do it.

Modifié par Shade of Wolf, 18 avril 2010 - 10:20 .

[Brockololly]

Was looking through some of the old, old forum posts on dragonagecentral from the devs and found this snippet from Gaider back in Feb. 2007 that may shed some light on how maybe the DR could be handled:
------------------------
Quote: Posted 02/05/07 18:52 (GMT) by
LightzyBah, I dislike the idea of continuing a sequel with your original character and its choices. There's no guarantee that this would be the case. What I'm talking about is, even if you start off with a new character, that what you've done in the original game affects the world and/or your choices in the new game.

David Gaider wrote...
What if, for instance, you had a romance with an NPC(just as a hypothetical  example) and this was the only way you could get a "child of the great hero" origin story in the sequel? Might be kind of cool. Or perhaps you
meet up with characters in the game who are different based on what happened to them in the first Dragon Age. Or the main villain in the sequel is different based on the first one's events? So long as there is some kind of connection between the first and second game, that would be fine... it doesn't have to be a continuation of a set character.
----------------------------------

So yeah, like anything the devs post you can't really read too much into it, but you can readily apply the Dark ritual and Old God baby to some of those possible ideas Gaider mentioned. Doesn't really shed too much hope on bringing our Warden back necessarily, but there will be some continuation...

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 avril 2010 - 12:26 .

[Terra_Ex]

Yeah, that's one of the things that concerns me - some ppl want to continue as is with our current protagonist, for at least another game. The other half are expecting a new set of "origins" for each subsequent installment. As stated previously, we can pull up quotes that point to both ends of the spectrum as to Dragon Age's future.

The way Gaider is speaking here makes it sound like it could be another NWN scenario, but this was 3 years ago, so who knows. Depending on how the situation is handled will dictate my future interest in the series, like yourself, I moved away from Bioware when they went the NWN route and have no problem doing so again.

Using his example though (and taking into account the age of the post, so it may / may not be applicable to BW's current plans) - there's not really much in the way of player choice reflected there. If he was alluding to what became know as the Dark Ritual, well its forced upon the player - ALL players = so there is no element of player choice there really. You either die there, or accept it, Awakening partially canonises it by enforcing resurrection of the Warden if you chose the US.

So what effect would this have on DA2 - unlock one specific origin. If that is to be the culmination of the player's actions regarding Morrigan and the DR then I'd be... underwhelmed to say the least. It is the nightmare scenario - Warden 1.0 is reduced to a mere footnote in the grand scheme of things and the proposed "Child of a great hero" origin is unlocked by default as there was essentially NO other choice available.

imo, Bioware's strongest games have been the direct continuations:

BG1 > Tales of the Sword Coast>BG2>BG2: TOB.
Mass Effect 1 > Mass Effect 2

Two fantastic and gripping series of titles - and there's a reason for this - player investment (a term I am pleased to note has cropped up in recent Bioware dev interviews). People actually like to follow through a gripping story with their character, and will happily lap up game after game provided it's a cohesive product (ie: not Awakening). Then you have NWN - primarily multiplayer oriented modules (and essentially Bioware abandoning what they did best), which essentially killed my interest in Bioware for some time. We can only hope for the best and pray that Bioware has learned from Baldur's Gate & ME2 that people like continuations.

I'm not saying that any future Dragon Age game that has a new protagonist is automatically a bad game, far from it. However, if you fail to wrap up elements of the story that the player has an emotional investment in through their existing character(s) you have failed as a writer, imo. That said, the Bioware writers have delivered some of my favourite gaming narratives, so I will stick with them until they pull another NWN.

At some point I'll tire of ranting about this...

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 18 avril 2010 - 02:06 .

[Brockololly]

Seems to me that alot of people read into the "Origins" subtitle of Dragon Age and think alot of different things: Does it refer to the actual story origins in the game? Does it refer to DAO being the Origin story for the Warden, Old God Baby or the series itself? I think because of the title, alot of people think that each games needs a new set of origin stories and a new setting. They can surely move out of Ferelden with the Warden; I think it would be pretty neat to have the Warden go to Oralis or something and see how people react (if at all) to the Hero of Ferelden in a foreign nation.

Or instead of the really diverse Origin stories, you could have Origin stories for DA2 based on how you ended DAO- have one for each of the romances, plus one where you start a new Warden for the Ultimate Sacrificers.

Like Gaider mentioned in that quote I posted, there are many ways they could do continuity without the player being the Warden again- but having played BG2 and ME2, it would be a massive disappointment personally. It would be like KOTOR2 where I couldn't get into the story for most of the game because I was wondering where the hell Revan went. And then when you finally run into old NPCs like Bastila or Carth, its jarring because you as the player is going "Hey! Its Carth and Bastila!" yet playing as the Exile, Carth and Bastila have no idea who the hell you are and you just get a chilly reception. Thats what I fear in a DA sequel; And thats not to say that a Warden-less DA couldn't be a fantastic game, but like you mentioned Terra_Ex, they've got to wrap up the Warden's story and all of the loose ends before moving on or else that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth and yanks away any "emotional engagement" I might have had in the DA world. Don't get me wrong- the world of Thedas and the lore is interesting, but its the characters and their stories that keep me emotionally engaged and looking forward to a sequel.

But, I feel like a broken record at this point- Bioware is no doubt well underway on DA2 and any possible expansion to Origins, so we can only hope that maybe come June and E3 we get some positive news on the return of the Warden.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 avril 2010 - 05:05 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Seems to me that alot of people read into the "Origins" subtitle of Dragon Age and think alot of different things: Does it refer to the actual story origins in the game? Does it refer to DAO being the Origin story for the Warden, Old God Baby or the series itself? I think because of the title, alot of people think that each games needs a new set of origin stories and a new setting. They can surely move out of Ferelden with the Warden; I think it would be pretty neat to have the Warden go to Oralis or something and see how people react (if at all) to the Hero of Ferelden in a foreign nation.

Or instead of the really diverse Origin stories, you could have Origin stories for DA2 based on how you ended DAO- have one for each of the romances, plus one where you start a new Warden for the Ultimate Sacrificers.

Bioware said in one of the interviews that they wanted to focus on different origins for first DA, but will likely shift that focus to something else in the following games.

Also, another reason the game is called Origins is because it is, in effect, the beginning of the whole DA franchise.

[Barbarossa2010]

@Terra_Ex and Brockololly,

Brockololly's quotes and Terra_EX's comments on "player investment" had me scrambling back to find the quotes that Gaider responded to me when I drew him out back in Dec.  Some interesting things embedded in here to support both of your points.

Gaider:  "...There's definitely a gain to be had by picking up on a player's story in any given sequel as you get immediate buy-in from them... but that does not mean that a whole new story can't be told that doesn't involve your character at all or involves their decisions peripherally, one that you may (shocking, I know) enjoy just as much.  The fact that we gave you decisions to make and relationships to build, in other words, is not a promise that these will hold true in the future. If you enjoyed the game you're playing now, that's something, no?
Again, I'm not saying what we will or won't do, but I'd be careful making sweeping statements about how all depth is ruined in your current game based on what we do with the series in the future... though I do appreciate the emotional investment. Thank you. :)"

AND:

Gaider: "I fully expect that people would be disappointed if their favorite decision or favorite character didn't get continued in a future Dragon Age game -- but that's also because it's difficult to imagine it not being so. It's like when the details of Dragon Age first started emerging. Some people couldn't imagine how something different than Baldur's Gate (if they were invested in that game) could be any good -- and, hey, maybe they still don't but that doesn't mean we don't recognize that the nostalgia is there.
Hoping ...to have a future story tailored to your particular character is great, and like I said the buy-in factor is not insignificant... but there are also advantages to things like a canon story (cue dread chills) or even having a story completely removed from the player's experience in this first game. It's just something to keep in mind when you're making these sorts of requests, that's all."
---------------------------

Just thought you guys would appreciate his reponse in light of your commentaries.  May not be heartening that we will continue with our Warden's, but then again, it could be just an exercise in expectations management or disinformation to keep us off guard (they do seem to enjoy keeping their players off guard--As a consumer, I definitely prefer ME's predictability in their future direction, instead of this endless and seemingly futile (WTF?) speculation).

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 18 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

[Brockololly]

I seem to remember those comments from Gaider- to just sum up my thoughts on the matter, given the whole Morrigan cliffhanger and how I think the Warden's storyline still has some legs in it, if DA2 just goes in a whole new direction with a whole new protagonist, I'd be majorly disappointed. Whether it would be a great game or not, to me that would seem like going in the Neverwinter Nights direction of doing one shot stories, which regardless of how good they may be would be disappointing considering I feel like the Warden's story isn't close to done yet. It could be cool to play a DA game with a new hero that still deals with the repercussions of the events of Origins, but at this stage of the game and especially with the Dark Ritual and Old God Baby, it should be the Warden dealing with those repercussions not some other person.



The crux of the matter is that Bioware has got an instant purchase from me for DA2 if they can just tell me 2 things:

1.) Can we play as our Warden from Origins ?

2.) Can we continue romancing Morrigan in DA2 ?



Hopefully whenever they announce the 2/1/2011 title,we'll get the answers to those questions. I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

[Shade of Wolf]

Unless you get to play as the God Child, and your father is taken by the taint and your mother wants your body - BW can't surprise me too much >,<

[AlanC9]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
 Too much time spent trying to master the combat system to be looted of my personality all for the sake of a plot hook.

How does it loot you of your personality to give you a choice you don't like?

[adamm24680]

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Unless you get to play as the God Child

You never know, remember who turned out to be Revan?

Btw, when Morrigan was about to give me the ring I picked "Fine, hand it over" option, and didn't check if it was in my inventory. I didn't get the ring ending, and when I reloaded my save from before the Archdemon, it wasn't in my inventory. Also, I did talk with Morrigan after the Ritual. Could anyone advise me what to do before importing to Awakenings, or at least tell me what happened?

[blademaster7]

adamm24680 wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Unless you get to play as the God Child

You never know, remember who turned out to be Revan?

Btw, when Morrigan was about to give me the ring I picked "Fine, hand it over" option, and didn't check if it was in my inventory. I didn't get the ring ending, and when I reloaded my save from before the Archdemon, it wasn't in my inventory. Also, I did talk with Morrigan after the Ritual. Could anyone advise me what to do before importing to Awakenings, or at least tell me what happened?

For your DAO ending you definitely need the ring. Once she gives it to you it will mark a flag in your save. Some people reported a bug where you may not get it, and another bug where she gives you two rings.

If you surrender to Ser Cauthrien she will mention the ring. That's the only way(that I know of) to check if you have the flag.

For the Awakening ending you only need to have the romance active. Simply put, if her approval is at "love(91-100)" and you import the save, you will get the ending.

You may want to wait for Terra_ex's mod. I think he fixed a lot of stuff. It's worth to postpone your game for a while.


Speaking of Terra_ex and the mod... how is it going? Have you gotten to the DR yet? I have a few ideas about it.

[AlanC9]

Aren't those two questions the same thing, really? If the Warden comes back in a sequel but Morrigan doesn't, they'll have rioting in the streets.. Awakenings was bad enough.

[blademaster7]

Before Awakening was even released I kinda had this secret hope that it will end up being a flop. Everyone(including me) was hoping for an actual continuation, and not a lousy half-assed expansion that completely disconnects your character from his/her story.

They didn't listen to their fans... I'm not even sure they're paying attention

So in a way, I'm glad Awakening came out the way it did. A sh!tty game that will be forgotten quickly.

Modifié par blademaster7, 18 avril 2010 - 07:27 .

[Brockololly]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aren't those two questions the same thing, really? If the Warden comes back in a sequel but Morrigan doesn't, they'll have rioting in the streets.. Awakenings was bad enough.

Well, I would hope they know that Morrigan is the big hook for  a sequel- love her or hate her, I think people are at least a bit curious about her motives. And the devs have gone on the record as saying her story isn't over. Yet how her story is carried forward is the question: Would you consider it a continuation of Morrigan's story if Morrigan herself only had a bit part but the Old God Baby had a more central role? 

Bioware could easily not bring the Warden back and go with a new character that comes across Morrigan- that would just flat out really suck. But its a possibility. Even if we get the chance to play as the Warden again and even if Morrigan is in the same game, thats not necessarily a guarantee we'll get to romance her again. For all we know, if Gaider was feeling particularly cruel, they could pull an Alien3 on us and kill off Morrigan or other beloved Origins NPCs at the beginning of DA2 or they could have Morrigan return but not be interested in romance due to whatever compelled her to run away with OGB in Origins, or Morrigan could end up only being an NPC and not even a party member but still show up in the game.

I think I'll stop there with my negative scenarios regarding possible Morrigan disappointment. I already gave Gaider an idea back a couple months ago in one of the old Morrigan threads:
----------------------------------
Brockololly
wrote...

I would guess that if you romanced Morrigan, did the ritual,and vowed to search for her, then the PC would spend a long time searching for Morrigan and once he eventually finds her she would be absolutely enraged at the PC for coming after her (for whatever reason).They exchange words and eventually come to blows- an all out fight, allthe while shouting at each other as they totally expend all their energy fighting each other. Pretty soon though they realize they are just totally spent emotionally and physically and come to a draw. The PC
and Morrigan proceed to have wild crazy witch sex right on the spot.
Mark it down, thats your reunion right there.

David Gaider wrote...
And then the camera pulls back and you see you're in the Fade, and Morrigan is actually a Desire Demon. The player, oblivious, is forever trapped.
Yes, that might work.

--------------------------------------
No doubt Gaider is reading this, wringing his hands, letting loose a "Muahahaha!"  and taking notes on how to torment us Morrigan fanboys...

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 avril 2010 - 07:46 .

[Terra_Ex]

adamm24680 wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Unless you get to play as the God Child

You never know, remember who turned out to be Revan?

Btw, when Morrigan was about to give me the ring I picked "Fine, hand it over" option, and didn't check if it was in my inventory. I didn't get the ring ending, and when I reloaded my save from before the Archdemon, it wasn't in my inventory. Also, I did talk with Morrigan after the Ritual. Could anyone advise me what to do before importing to Awakenings, or at least tell me what happened?

The response "Fine, hand it over." is bugged and WILL NOT give you the ring. It's fixed in my mod though.

I'll read the rest of the posts and respond later today

[Count Viceroy]

I really don't want to have another bhaalspawn story where you're the godchild. I can't help the feeling that it'll be what we're getitng though. Seems like such an obvious plot element.

[Master Shiori]

If we indeed end up with a rip-off of Baldur's Gate then I'm seriously going to lose faith in Bioware's writers.



They did an awesome job with Origins and making DA2 basically a recycled version of their previous game would be an epic fail on so many levels...

[Xandurpein]

I don't know if this is swearing on the church in this thread, but I really liked Morrigan's story all the way up to the end. I've been playing Bioware romances ever since BG2. I think this was fresh. A beautiful bittersweet goodbye end can be just as good as a happy-ever-after. Personally I will be disapointed if they strip Morrigan of her mystery and the tragedy. She is just perfect as she is.

And I definetly hope there is no God-child made canon. I really don't want any decision made canon at all. I hope the God-child appears like a legend 100 or more years later, like a legend that no one really knows if it is the truth or not.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 avril 2010 - 08:57 .

[Master Shiori]

Xandurpein wrote...

I don't know if this is swearing on the church in this thread, but I really liked Morrigan's story all the way up to the end. I've been playing Bioware romances ever since BG2. I think this was fresh. A beautiful bittersweet goodbye end can be just as good as a happy-ever-after. Personally I will be disapointed if they strip Morrigan of her mystery and the tragedy. She is just perfect as she is.

And I definetly hope there is no God-child made canon. I really don't want any decision made canon at all. I hope the God-child appears like a legend 100 or more years later, like a legend that no one really knows if it is the truth or not.

There will be canon. Bioware canonized games before and will do so again.

Take a look at Baldur's Gate 2. No matter what character you played, who you recruited for your group or what you did, at the start of BG2 you had by default the good companions. Didn't matter if you never knew those people or if you even killed them during BG1.

Same thing with Revan in Knights of the Old Republic. His gender and actions were canonized.

Bioware has already stated that we'll see Morrigan again so the whole "let it remain a mistery" thing gets thrown out the window. And why not?

Do you seriously think Bioware would make Morrigan a postergirl for DA:O, give her such an important role in the story, only to throw her away after a crappy ending full of cliffhangers?

And no, compared to what Alistair, Leliana or Zevran fans got, the end of Morrigan's romance wasn't good or satisfying. It felt like a complete kick in the teeth.

I'm not saying a reunion between an Origins Warden and Morrigan needs to have a happy ending. It might very well end up as a  tragedy. But any kind of resolution is better then the "disappeared into the unknown" crap we have atm.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 18 avril 2010 - 09:32 .

[blademaster7]

Master Shiori wrote...

And no, compared to what Alistair, Leliana or Zevran fans got, the end of Morrigan's romance wasn't good or satisfying. It felt like a complete kick in the teeth.

I'm not saying a reunion between an Origins Warden and Morrigan needs to have a happy ending. It might very well end up as a  tragedy. But any kind of resolution is better then the "disappeared into the unknown" crap we have atm.

AMEN!

This.quote.is.perfect. I can't think of any way to put it better.

*Note to self. Add this guy to your friendlist.

Your "favorite Warden" from DAO threw his life away to go look for her. He could just settle in Denerim and live as a rich hero and have everything he ever wanted. But no. After Awakening he abandons all his privilegdes because he felt the need to find the woman he loves(the game doesn't realy give you a choice). He doesn't know what he will find, he's not even sure she will accept him. There is something inside him that has been burning him for years. He wants to look into her eyes and ask... WHY? That's it. Nothing more.

Now imagine playing DA2 and meeting Morrigan with your new character. That "other" guy -- who is now a footnote in Morrigan's codex entry -- wasted all these years and found nothing, and you just accidentally bump in her with this new guy you don't really care about(yet anyway). How  would you feel?

If DA2 is anything like that, then I'll pass.

Did that sound melodramatic? i feel stupid for posting that... but I had to say it <_<

Modifié par blademaster7, 18 avril 2010 - 09:54 .

[Master Shiori]

blademaster7 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

And no, compared to what Alistair, Leliana or Zevran fans got, the end of Morrigan's romance wasn't good or satisfying. It felt like a complete kick in the teeth.

I'm not saying a reunion between an Origins Warden and Morrigan needs to have a happy ending. It might very well end up as a  tragedy. But any kind of resolution is better then the "disappeared into the unknown" crap we have atm.

AMEN!

This.quote.is.perfect. I can't think of any way to put it better.

*Note to self. Add this guy to your friendlist.

Why, thank you.

I've added you to my friendlist as well.

[Count Viceroy]

blademaster7 wrote...

Did that sound melodramatic? i feel
stupid for posting that... but I had to say it [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

It's the one romance that doesn't have a proper ending and ends with a big cliffhanger, Nothing to feel stupid about, most morrigan fans feel the same.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 18 avril 2010 - 10:10 .

[AlanC9]

Master Shiori wrote...
Same thing with Revan in Knights of the Old Republic. His gender and actions were canonized.

Gender certainly wasn't. And KotOR 2 was by Obsidian anyway.

[Cuddlezarro]

AlanC9 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
Same thing with Revan in Knights of the Old Republic. His gender and actions were canonized.

Gender certainly wasn't. And KotOR 2 was by Obsidian anyway.

except Revans gender was canonised

his looks where not but his gender certainly was