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THE Morrigan Discussion and Research Thread *Infested with Bugs Yet Again!*


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#9676
GardenSnake

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Morrigans God son wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Thought this guy's improvisational shirt/sign from PAX was funny and pathetic all rolled into one- look at what BioWare is doing to people! :lol::lol:

Posted Image


What does that say? I can't read it :(


Need to find Morrigan!!
She had my
Child!!!


Wow is that not a bit.....much? Posted Image
Oh well that guy is a legend!

I already have a plan for the next big convention that Bioware goes to. I'm making custom Dragon Effect shirts and going to the Bioware/DA2 booth. Lets see what Greg and Ray think about THAT. Greg will spaz probably just like in that GiantBomb podcast that Brock linked Posted Image "This is truly the age of dragons!"

Modifié par GardenSnake, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:06 .


#9677
Brockololly

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GardenSnake wrote...
 Lets see what Greg and Ray think about THAT. Greg will spaz probably just like in that GiantBomb podcast that Brock linked Posted Image "This is truly the age of dragons!"


"HHHHWAAAAHHHHH!! THESE ART ASSETS ARE GARBAGE! YOU PEOPLE ARE GARBAGE!":lol::lol:

Thats always good for a laugh or two:D

#9678
Bruddajakka

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Well like I was saying they could just hand wave it a bit. Pick of an actor from one of the six then have him do choices, and have him do the VA so Meer in the case of the Elf origin for example. And just chalk the accent up as a result of his tribe being based primarily in Ferelden up till the incident with the Mirror. It's not the most elegant of solutions but it'd do. Plus the whole fact that when/if we do see Morrigan, and the Warden ten years will have past. That's enough time for someones voice to have changed.

#9679
GardenSnake

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Bruddajakka wrote...

Well like I was saying they could just hand wave it a bit. Pick of an actor from one of the six then have him do choices, and have him do the VA so Meer in the case of the Elf origin for example. And just chalk the accent up as a result of his tribe being based primarily in Ferelden up till the incident with the Mirror. It's not the most elegant of solutions but it'd do. Plus the whole fact that when/if we do see Morrigan, and the Warden ten years will have past. That's enough time for someones voice to have changed.

How much would that cost though? And that's not even including all the other talent that they'd bring in. What if they decided to bring in Harrison Ford (If they did, I'd buy six copies on day one. Seriously), Meryl Streep, Ewan McGregor or some other known actors to do voices for the companions? Who knows? The ones that I mentioned would probably cost half of the game's budget anyways. Bringing back Claudia Black, as we almost certainly know they will to play Morrigan again, won't be cheap.

I really can't understand why they decided to go full VO, it results in a shorter game, less immersion (IMO), and less money to go towards things like oh I don't know.... art assets? Posted ImagePosted Image

Modifié par GardenSnake, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:20 .


#9680
Brockololly

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GardenSnake wrote...
 The ones that I mentioned would probably cost half of the game's budget anyways. Bringing back Claudia Black, as we almost certainly know they will to play Morrigan again, won't be cheap.

I really can't understand why they decided to go full VO, it results in a shorter game, less immersion (IMO), and less money to go towards things like oh I don't know.... art assets? Posted ImagePosted Image


Hehehe..art assets... maybe thats why they went with the hot rod samurai art retcons....haha..

As for voice acting, I was surprised at the number of recognizable actors they got to do work in ME2. On the flip side though, I actually prefer it when I can't tell who the voice actor is- its nice having Sheen do the voice of TIM, but it always seems like Sheen, you know? Its great though when you get a really good voice actor like Claudia Black doing the Asari Bartender and you don't even realize its her. I'd rather they go with more unknown yet still good VAs if it means they can fit more dialogue and content in.

And has anyone played through Witch Hunt as a Dalish yet? Are there any big differences for the Dalish Warden?

#9681
Shiratori

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(Points to avatar, hey, Dalish Warden!) Big differences? Not really. Ariane is a little more friendly when she greets you and she apologizes a bit for bringing you back to the ruins where the mirror is. You get a few different lines about where you can talk about this is where it began or if you'd do it over. So some dialogue changes but nothing that really affects the story. It's similar to bringing a Mage Warden in. You get some dialogue differences back in the tower, but again, nothing that different.

#9682
revan11exile

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I was wondering has anybody played Witch Hunt with a male Dwarf Noble and if u have does Morrigan mention your child u had with that Noble Hunter Mardy damn that means the Warden has two kids lol

#9683
Bryy_Miller

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Terra_Ex wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

In my playthrough the romance was acknowledged but I got a bug where my character refused the DR when he didn't. She has a non-OGB child with my Warden and it's a son... :/

Is this what everyone gets?

I'm rushing a 2nd playthrough to see the DR dialogue now


I don't know that there is any rhyme or reason to it.

I did 3 runs with 3 different Wardens:

My first was a Cousland imported from Origins' post-epilogue save where I spoke with her to get the ring epilogue and used Terra's Mod- she thought I denied the DR

Second was  COusland who I imported from the end of Awakening and also used Terra's mod- she thought I denied the DR.

Third was my Amell who I imported from Origins , spoke with Morrigan at the end and used Terra's mod- this one worked like it should have.

But you're right- you can tell in the first line of dialogue with Dog if your playthrough will be bugged. If its bugged you won't be able to reference the OGB, while if its not bugged you should be bale to reference wanting to see the OGB to Dog.

We can't look at this in the toolset though can we?

My blasted internet went down shortly after getting WH last night so I missed the goings on, anyway, dunno if any other savvy modders have discovered the problem yet but I'll copy what I noted down last night regardless:

Regarding the bug:
it seems to be caused by the "post-game" in Origins. If you cast your mind back to when we were discussing that "PRC" plot file several months back you remember that the game copied all the ritual flags to a separate plot file before wiping the original, presumably to avoid breaking morrigan's dialogue in the post game.

The choices you make regarding the ritual are stored in clipt_morrigan_ritual.plt (GUID 764C8DAF-F227-4DFE-BC7C-7B32FA2BB0CD) in DA:O. This plot file is wiped if the player loads the post-game save (where they appear at the "On the road" area)  following the coronation scene in DA:O. Its contents are copied to the "PRC" plot file we discussed months ago in the post-game script cam900ar_endgame.nss. The problem is, if the player imports a Origins/Awakening save where this process has occured, Witch Hunt tries to read the ritual plot flags from the now-cleared plotfile. You can see the game trying to access the plot file in the logs.

Thus the game believes you didn't do the ritual even if you did. The only feasible workaround for this is to import an origins save from the coronation room (the "final save" might work too) or an Awakening save where you never entered the "post game" of DA:O. Bioware should sort this out imo.

Short version - if you entered the "post game" in Origins, and imported that save into Awakening/Golems/WH you are bugged.



Now, my thoughts on the DLC:


I'll admit my expectations weren't sky high, but I thoroughly enjoyed Witch Hunt, re-used locations and all. I'll lay out my experiences and final thoughts in a suitably epic post, as is the norm for Morri thread regulars.


Positives:

A lot better than I was anticipating.

Ring references :) Morri mentions it, there's a scene where a companion mentions it, very nicely interwoven with the plotline. Definitely rewarded serious roleplayers.

Some powerful scenes in front of the mirror, it's clear that the Warden has had a big influence on her, yet she's still a strong, independent character.

Dog's reactions to the Warden's attitude toward Morrigan as the plot progressed were an unexpected surprise - he wasn't too happy if you announce that you intend to kill her. I really liked this interaction and the part where Morri greets the dog.

Pretty nice reunion scene with Morri, provided the correct answers are chosen.

Possibility of a "good" ending.

A few more bits of info on Flemeth/Morri's plans with giving away too much.

A couple of amusing moments in the library.

Finn's comment - You could... probably crush me like a knat. (Finally, someone gets it!)

A pretty big payoff for a romancing warden tbh. It really felt like the warden had dealt with all the other annoyances and was finally focused on finding Morrigan (a desire expressed repeatedly by morri-fans).

Claudia Black did a great job again.

... We didn't get Gaider'd... yet.


Disappointing things:

Not many tbh,

No challenges in combat but tbh its not even really an issue or the focus of the DLC. The warden is godlike by this point and it's somewhat fitting that everything falls before him as he presses on- you really feel like he's a man on a mission so I'm willing to discount this one on the strengths of the rest of the product.

Most disappointing for me is that I doubt the choices that you make will have any impact on future games as there is no end save for Witch Hunt and the important choices come right at the end. From the looks of the log files no flags seem to get set for how you deal with Morrigan so it's doubtful how the Warden closes things with her will play any kind of role in the future, which is sad as a warden that went into the mirror world with her thereby entangling his fate with her's could make for a interesting element in a future game.


Final thoughts:

The "murder knife" moment was particularly cruel for those of you that've seen it. I'm not sure Morri's done anything quite so evil as to deserve that, heck it was almost a homage to that idiot with the beheading vids, though I'm sure our view is a little biased.

While I definitely loved one of the particular endings for the romancing warden, that particular one really does lend itself to the Warden reappearing alongside Morri when she resurfaces in the future, to miss out on that through Witch Hunt's lack of a final save would be disappointing. The Warden's stepping into some questionable territory as he throws everything away to be with Morrigan - definitely something I'd like to see some kind of follow up to in a future game. I mention this mainly as wasn't there a rumour that you *might* encounter your old warden in DA2 or beyond and we know that Morrigan is set to return at some point, but for the duo to show up together when/if Morrigan becomes central the plot would be beyond awesome imo... Hopefully the warden won't have inexplicably vanished when Morri returns. After finishing witch hunt I'm definitely feeling more receptive to DA2 and beyond, but I really hope they've got some way for accounting for a romancing warden's choices for Morri's return - boulder/gone fishing and whatnot won't suffice if the warden isn't present in some capacity. Essentially I'd like to see *this* Morrigan in the future, you've crafted a really nice end to this part of the story so don't let it be for nothing when Morri returns.

Regardless, an enjoyable dlc (my first run through was spoiled by the aforementioned bug, resulting in a semi-hostile romanced Morrigan), some great & fitting lines from the warden & morrigan imo, whilst building up Flemeth's upcoming role in DA2. There's a lot of stuff here for players that romanced Morrigan, who certainly have the most motivation to chase her down.  Witch Hunt provides some fitting closure to the Warden's immediate story whilst leaving the flexibility to come back. I quite like the idea that a romance nurtured in DA:O could have consequences down the line, even if we have a new protagonist. While I won't be able to fully close the MorriganxWarden saga until we see how Morrigan's role plays out what we've got now is infinitely better than what we had before. Let's just hope that both Morri and the Warden will be back at some point in the future. I'd definitely like to extend my thanks to those involved in creating it, a fitting end for my "canon" Origins playthroughs without a doubt.

On a side note I enjoyed Gaider's interviews at PAX and the way he elaborated on the changes to the combat system are something I could definitely get on board with.
 
... Terra_Ex is going soft. Gotta toughen up for whatever traps have been set for DA2... Also need to check out the Liara DLC in the near future.


Thanks for clearing this up.

#9684
Swoo

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Terra_Ex wrote...
@Swoo - I've not seen your thoughts on the DLC, what did you think of it?


I truly think I might start becoming known as 'The Grumpy Poster', but honestly I haven't seen anything out of DA in a long time that made me happy I put money down for it past the original game. The DLC is getting rather universally panned and it's for a good reason, it's crap. Luckily I'm biased enough that it's crap with a decent enough fanservice ending that it made me happy to play it, but it's still crap. You can like something even when you know it's no good, look at all the fan's of the Troll movies.

They somehow managed to give us the best-case and worst-case all at the same time. It was a short DLC full of absolutely nothing that was completely rehashing existing locations and only gave us a five minute tease of Morrigan at the very end where absolutely nothing is really said, yet they managed to close it off with an open enough ending that nothing truly has to end, and Morrigan and the Warden recieved probably the happiest available ending to their current story. It was nice to dare to hope that I could follow Morrigan through the mirror, so when that became a possibility I was really happy and all over it. Unlike other posters it wasn't even a decision for me, I was sold the moment I saw her. Then again my guy's a Magi who doesn't like the Chantry, not especially thrilled with being a Circle Slave, doesn't want to be in politics, and probably wouldn't have the correct mindset to join the rank and file of the Wardens. Not that much holding him back.

The NPCs were decent but not as good as Leliana's Song, and dwarfed by a few Awakening NPCs who had just about as much development and were still vastly inferior to Origins companions. Except Wynne, Banishment To The Wynne. Ariane's whole quest is quickly forgotten, I expected more from Finn during the game but he was pretty solid in his 'I needed something to do' reasoning. Some decent dialogue I suppose, nothing jumps out as instantly cringeworthy (Teeeeeagan!), not quote-worthy. But average party of NPCs, recycled zones I've already seen way too many times, a new zone that is just an enlarged old zone, it all felt like old hat. And boring. God, I don't know if I was just being oblivious in my dogged pursuit to meet up with Morrigan in the Morrigan DLC, but it was like the opening of Denerim or a good chunk of Awakening in the fight to stay awake to get to the (hopefully) better part afterwards.

The entire thing with Morrigan at the end just confuses me. I like how it ended, but it seems like she talked a decent bit of dialogue without ever truly saying a single thing. Oh, and I'm sure the writers had quite the cathartic moment taking veiled potshots in the 'Change' speech. I like..no, love...the fact that she breaks down and decides to involve you in her plans and takes her with you, but as the player you still have no freaking clue what that is other than Morrigan = Good(ish), Flemeth = Not-So-Good(ish). I didn't expect 'All Morrigan's Mysteries Revealed' to truly be delivered (or whatever the tagline said), but I expect a bit more. Something. Anything. Basically it was seven bucks to watch a DA2 teaser. Perhaps a social experiment as well, 'How much can we f--- with these guys by releasing buggy, half-working product that never delivers what we say until they quit kissing our asses?'. What do you mean I didn't do the DR? Psssh.

It had good parts, here and there. The call-backs have been well pointed out, the ring getting some love, getting more Claudia Black voiced goodness and a non kick in the balls 'ending', but Brock said it best about the DLC just showing you how much more it could have been than what was delivered. Not even as a Morrigan Romance tale, but just as a strong hunt that gives more information on the various plans and workings going on behind the scenes, while also taking the Warden out of play explaining why Hawke was the logical reason to become the guyiest of guys in the 'sequel'.

So, I really like the ending, will forget everything that happened before it by yesterday.

Oh, and Mirror World is City 17. 'Varterral' my ass.

And now for Brock to counterbalance my negativity with how someone can run this DLC 5-6 times in succession...

#9685
Bruddajakka

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I still don't get how people can actually say the Leliana Song npcs were better then Ariene, and Finn because honestly they weren't. About the only thing I remember about the Leli song npcs was one was a coward, one thought girl on girl was hot, and was voiced by Mark Meer, and one was in a dungeon being tortured by some guy.

#9686
Zjarcal

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Bruddajakka wrote...

I still don't get how people can actually say the Leliana Song npcs were better then Ariene, and Finn because honestly they weren't. About the only thing I remember about the Leli song npcs was one was a coward, one thought girl on girl was hot, and was voiced by Mark Meer, and one was in a dungeon being tortured by some guy.


I do feel that the companions in Leli's Song were very good but they weren't as developed as Finn and Ariane. The fact that Finn and Ariane had banters between them (and with Dog) helped a lot in establishing their characters.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 septembre 2010 - 08:14 .


#9687
Swoo

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Bruddajakka wrote...

I still don't get how people can actually say the Leliana Song npcs were better then Ariene, and Finn because honestly they weren't.


Easy, like this. Tug and Sketch were superior characters. Bam. Just did it. Can do it again if you want.

The joy of arguing over personal opinions though, eh?

#9688
Zjarcal

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@Swoo



Do it again!



It made me swoon!

#9689
Swoo

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Zjarcal wrote...

@Swoo

Do it again!

It made me swoon!


See, now we've gone and put expectations on it. I'm just going to have to hold off and drop it in the thread again when noone is looking.

#9690
bl00dsh0t

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So is it time to declare the thread dead yet? :D Posting speed dropped to under one per hour, all things WH discussed...hmm...pic spamming time again? ^^

#9691
Epantiras

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So, according to the DragonAge wiki, Witch Hunt can have four endings:

1. Morrigan and the Warden say goodbye, and Morrigan walks through the Eluvian portal.

2. Morrigan and the Warden kiss, say goodbye, and Morrigan walks through the portal alone.

3. The player stabs Morrigan and she falls backwards through the Eluvian portal.

4. The player and Morrigan kiss and then walk into the Eluvian portal together.



So, does it mean that only a Warden who romanced Morrigan can go through the portal with her?

#9692
Maconbar

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Romance to get portal.

#9693
Master Shiori

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Epantiras wrote...

So, according to the DragonAge wiki, Witch Hunt can have four endings:
1. Morrigan and the Warden say goodbye, and Morrigan walks through the Eluvian portal.
2. Morrigan and the Warden kiss, say goodbye, and Morrigan walks through the portal alone.
3. The player stabs Morrigan and she falls backwards through the Eluvian portal.
4. The player and Morrigan kiss and then walk into the Eluvian portal together.

So, does it mean that only a Warden who romanced Morrigan can go through the portal with her?


Yes, that appears to be the case.

Though honestly, why anyone would pick option 3. is beyond my understanding. Are we talking about a sick sanse of satisfaction here or what?

Also, is there anything different if you play as a Mage Warden in Witch Hunt? Does Finn react differently or do you have some uniwue lines in the phylactery chamber?

#9694
Terra_Ex

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Brockololly wrote...

Nonsense! You've got more Morrigan coming this fall, courtesy of MySims SkyHeroes!
Posted Image

Gah, so close but they've misjudged the audience. What we REALLY want is the ability to import warden & morri into the Sims and spends unhealthy amounts of time on our twee little domestic fantasy of picket fences, baking bread and painting the shed. 'Tis "the dream" in fact.

Swoo wrote...
They somehow managed to give us the best-case and worst-case all at the same time. It was a short DLC full of absolutely nothing that was completely rehashing existing locations and only gave us a five minute tease of Morrigan at the very end where absolutely nothing is really said, yet they managed to close it off with an open enough ending that nothing truly has to end, and Morrigan and the Warden recieved probably the happiest available ending to their current story.

For me, the writing was on the wall from Feastday onwards as to the chances of genuine new art assets and areas. I guess after X successive DLCs culmilatively lowering expectations, by this point anything that provides a non-DR moment, some measure of plot relevance and doesn't outright kill either of them is a godsend.


Swoo wrote...
It was nice to dare to hope that I could follow Morrigan through the mirror, so when that became a possibility I was really happy and all over it. Unlike other posters it wasn't even a decision for me, I was sold the moment I saw her. Then again my guy's a Magi who doesn't like the Chantry, not especially thrilled with being a Circle Slave, doesn't want to be in politics, and probably wouldn't have the correct mindset to join the rank and file of the Wardens. Not that much holding him back.

Ha,  when I saw that option I thought... hmmm, what excuse are we to be given this time, when the game actually followed through with the logical result it certainly surprised me. The ending where they enter the mirror is perfectly fitting, both in the DA setting and the context of the romance itself, weaving together the elements that made her such a great character - trust, an uncertain outcome and dark magic. Like you, (when the game is behaving properly) there really wasn't a choice to be made. Morri's scene with the dog and the look on her face if you attack her really hammer home the relationship between Morrigan and the warden, both romance and non-romance.

I notice some players would have liked their female wardens to have gone into the mirror with Morrigan, for me though that would have severely undermined the value of the romancing warden's end and the unique developments of the Origins romance so I'm glad that wasn't an option.

Swoo wrote...
The NPCs were decent but not as good as Leliana's Song, and dwarfed by a few Awakening NPCs who had just about as much development and were still vastly inferior to Origins companions. Except Wynne, Banishment To The Wynne. Ariane's whole quest is quickly forgotten, I expected more from Finn during the game but he was pretty solid in his 'I needed something to do' reasoning. Some decent dialogue I suppose, nothing jumps out as instantly cringeworthy (Teeeeeagan!), not quote-worthy. But average party of NPCs, recycled zones I've already seen way too many times, a new zone that is just an enlarged old zone, it all felt like old hat. And boring. God, I don't know if I was just being oblivious in my dogged pursuit to meet up with Morrigan in the Morrigan DLC, but it was like the opening of Denerim or a good chunk of Awakening in the fight to stay awake to get to the (hopefully) better part afterwards.


While I enjoyed the npcs in both Leli's song and witch hunt, they'll never equal those in the core compaign. In both they're there just to make comments on the player's actions - you aren't afforded th opportunity to probe for information and it wouldn't work in 1-2hr dlcs anyway.None of the companions in Awakening or the expansions managed to wow me, Oghren I liked in DA:O then progressively tired of in Awakening. Perhaps Nathaniel was the most interested because of the Cousland/Hower connection but that aside I just took them for what they are. Leli's companions are there to add perspective to Leli & Marjolaine's relationship, WH companions, primarilly Ariane are just there to give the player opportunity to define what their relationship with Morrigan is and drive the plot since the Warden isn't voiced. In WH I found it kind of fitting that they took a backseat role because upon meeting Morrigan, most Wardens wouldn't really care about the tag-alongs (I wouldn't at least) , which is underlined in the "into the mirror" ending.


Swoo wrote...
The entire thing with Morrigan at the end just confuses me. I like how it ended, but it seems like she talked a decent bit of dialogue without ever truly saying a single thing. Oh, and I'm sure the writers had quite the cathartic moment taking veiled potshots in the 'Change' speech.

Well, luckily it was somewhat in-character for Morri, otherwise I wouldn't have appreciated in-line advertisements for DA2.

Swoo wrote...
I like..no, love...the fact that she breaks down and decides to involve you in her plans and takes her with you, but as the player you still have no freaking clue what that is other than Morrigan = Good(ish), Flemeth = Not-So-Good(ish). I didn't expect 'All Morrigan's Mysteries Revealed' to truly be delivered (or whatever the tagline said), but I expect a bit more. Something. Anything.

Well, the DLC keeps Morri in-play for all players moving forward whilst helping to ease the transition I suppose. Since I enjoyed the final scenes I'll give BW the benefit of the doubt for now, we know Morri is coming back and Flemeth is likely a major player moving forwards...


Swoo wrote...
Basically it was seven bucks to watch a DA2 teaser. Perhaps a social experiment as well, 'How much can we f--- with these guys by releasing buggy, half-working product that never delivers what we say until they quit kissing our asses?'. What do you mean I didn't do the DR? Psssh.

I certainly get what you're saying, and to a certain extent I agree. Looking at things in the most negative light, you can view it as a comply or die interim for DA2. For the useless DLCs, you speak with your wallet - don't buy, but lacklustre DLC seems to be a constant iterative process across the industry it seems. I doubt this bug was intentional but it most certainly should have been picked up before release. I'm sure you know my opinion on bugs regarding Morrigan so I won't even comment on that.


Swoo wrote...
It had good parts, here and there. The call-backs have been well pointed out, the ring getting some love, getting more Claudia Black voiced goodness and a non kick in the balls 'ending', but Brock said it best about the DLC just showing you how much more it could have been than what was delivered
. Not even as a Morrigan Romance tale, but just as a strong hunt that gives more information on the various plans and workings going on behind the scenes, while also taking the Warden out of play explaining why Hawke was the logical reason to become the guyiest of guys in the 'sequel'.

Well, that's what we argued so strongly for it for months on end. I suppose the advantage of the way its turned out is Morrigan's actual "plan" hasn't been squandered, if they'd thrown that away completely as we'd feared might happen. As it stands irrespective of whether the DR happened or not, she still has some plan underway, which is a good thing for our wardens, assuming we get to be a part of it. All wardens were given something to potentially tie them in with her future plans, be it the gift she left, the fact that you leave with her or the thing that shall not be mentioned - they all leave the door open, without writing the warden out of the picture completely. Now you've got a cool down period away from Morrigan in DA2 where we'll presumably see a different perspective.



Master Shiori wrote...
...
Though honestly, why anyone would pick option 3. is beyond my understanding. Are we talking about a sick sanse of satisfaction here or what?

At the very least Shiori, it *could* provide a tie between Morri and that warden. She'd have reason to want revenge when she came back, solely against that warden. All three endings do seek to maintain a least some ties between the warden and morrigan's continued plotline. Personally though, I found the expression on Morrigan's face to be quite telling that it wasn't a "good" choice.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:35 .


#9695
Master Shiori

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Swoo wrote...

They somehow managed to give us the best-case and worst-case all at the same time. It was a short DLC full of absolutely nothing that was completely rehashing existing locations and only gave us a five minute tease of Morrigan at the very end where absolutely nothing is really said, yet they managed to close it off with an open enough ending that nothing truly has to end, and Morrigan and the Warden recieved probably the happiest available ending to their current story. It was nice to dare to hope that I could follow Morrigan through the mirror, so when that became a possibility I was really happy and all over it. Unlike other posters it wasn't even a decision for me, I was sold the moment I saw her. Then again my guy's a Magi who doesn't like the Chantry, not especially thrilled with being a Circle Slave, doesn't want to be in politics, and probably wouldn't have the correct mindset to join the rank and file of the Wardens. Not that much holding him back.


I agree that following Morrigan through the mirror was a natural thing for any Warden who romanced her.
I just wish that it was also possible for those who were her friends rather than lovers, but I guess you can't have it all. Now if we could only learn what gift she left for the Warden...


Swoo wrote...

The NPCs were decent but not as good as Leliana's Song, and dwarfed by a few Awakening NPCs who had just about as much development and were still vastly inferior to Origins companions. Except Wynne, Banishment To The Wynne. Ariane's whole quest is quickly forgotten, I expected more from Finn during the game but he was pretty solid in his 'I needed something to do' reasoning. Some decent dialogue I suppose, nothing jumps out as instantly cringeworthy (Teeeeeagan!), not quote-worthy. But average party of NPCs, recycled zones I've already seen way too many times, a new zone that is just an enlarged old zone, it all felt like old hat. And boring. God, I don't know if I was just being oblivious in my dogged pursuit to meet up with Morrigan in the Morrigan DLC, but it was like the opening of Denerim or a good chunk of Awakening in the fight to stay awake to get to the (hopefully) better part afterwards.


Personally, I really enjoyed having both Ariane and Finn in the party. I especially loved Ariane since she is the only companion after Origins that not only comments on your relationship with Morrigan but actually shows simpathy for what you went through. I really wish we could get her and Leliana togather. I imagine they would get along quite well as long as the MAker was kept out of the conversation.

Finn was a really entertaining character and make a good match with Ariane and the dog.

Swoo wrote...
The entire thing with Morrigan at the end just confuses me. I like how it ended, but it seems like she talked a decent bit of dialogue without ever truly saying a single thing. Oh, and I'm sure the writers had quite the cathartic moment taking veiled potshots in the 'Change' speech. I like..no, love...the fact that she breaks down and decides to involve you in her plans and takes her with you, but as the player you still have no freaking clue what that is other than Morrigan = Good(ish), Flemeth = Not-So-Good(ish). I didn't expect 'All Morrigan's Mysteries Revealed' to truly be delivered (or whatever the tagline said), but I expect a bit more. Something. Anything. Basically it was seven bucks to watch a DA2 teaser. Perhaps a social experiment as well, 'How much can we f--- with these guys by releasing buggy, half-working product that never delivers what we say until they quit kissing our asses?'. What do you mean I didn't do the DR? Psssh.


Honestly, I didn't expect any real answers from her, simply because by that point we knew she would be back in DA3 and anything she revealed would have likely leaked the plot for that game or overall series. She does confirm that Flemeth is more than a possessed mage and that her plan will bring about change for the whle of Thedas (Chantry being brought down in DA2). We also learn that Morrigan is trying to stop her.
As for the bugs themselves, yes it's unfortunate, but to their credit Bioware set about fixing them as soon as they became known, where usually we had to wait for months in order to get a patch.


Swoo wrote...

It had good parts, here and there. The call-backs have been well pointed out, the ring getting some love, getting more Claudia Black voiced goodness and a non kick in the balls 'ending', but Brock said it best about the DLC just showing you how much more it could have been than what was delivered. Not even as a Morrigan Romance tale, but just as a strong hunt that gives more information on the various plans and workings going on behind the scenes, while also taking the Warden out of play explaining why Hawke was the logical reason to become the guyiest of guys in the 'sequel'.


It could have been more sure. It could also have been much less or even not come about at all.

After playing WH it's clear that the DLC is a olive branch to all Morrigan fans who got screwed with DR and got nothing in Awakening. But it wasn't something that had to come about. They could have just ignored us and moved on to DA2, saying: "It was a tragic romance and we're sorry, but that's how it is".

Thanks to WH we finally got our "happy" ending like everyone else. What's more we know that Morrigan will be back and that there's a possibility that the Warden may return as well (at least David Gaider keeps bouncing that idea around the forums and, considering what kind of an outrage the news that we'll be playing as Hawke in DA2 caused I doubt he's simply having fun at our expense).

#9696
Swoo

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Master Shiori wrote...
After playing WH it's clear that the DLC is a olive branch to all Morrigan fans who got screwed with DR and got nothing in Awakening. But it wasn't something that had to come about. They could have just ignored us and moved on to DA2, saying: "It was a tragic romance and we're sorry, but that's how it is".


Like I said it's am unsual position I'm in. The DLC was underwhelming, none of Morrigan's secret's were revealed, and it felt more like a fan-made mod with good voice acting than the DLC to cap off the first game. That said, I still would recommend it to anyone who felt burnt by the Dark Ritual or wanted more Morrigan...even if it's just a tease. It's not great, it's not even good, but it's worth the play if you cared about the character(s) even a little bit.

#9697
Master Shiori

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Swoo wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
After playing WH it's clear that the DLC is a olive branch to all Morrigan fans who got screwed with DR and got nothing in Awakening. But it wasn't something that had to come about. They could have just ignored us and moved on to DA2, saying: "It was a tragic romance and we're sorry, but that's how it is".


Like I said it's am unsual position I'm in. The DLC was underwhelming, none of Morrigan's secret's were revealed, and it felt more like a fan-made mod with good voice acting than the DLC to cap off the first game. That said, I still would recommend it to anyone who felt burnt by the Dark Ritual or wanted more Morrigan...even if it's just a tease. It's not great, it's not even good, but it's worth the play if you cared about the character(s) even a little bit.


Personaly, I enjoyed every moment of it.

Since we're talking about a DLC I didn't have high expectations to begin with, but after playing through it I feel we really got our money's worth.
Sure, the locations were recycled but considering the story is about the mirrors from Dalish origin it doesn't come as a suprise.
The only time I dislike recycled locations is when they're supposed to represent a different location from the one they originaly did.

Story? Pretty good, for a 1.5 to 2 hour of content.

Characters? I think they were both good. It was nice to see banter again and the dialogue had some truly great moments, both funny and emotional.

Ending? I expected something similar but Claudia Black's voice acting coupled with awesome facial animations on Morrigan made it a truly great experience. Sure, we hardly got any answers, but that was only to be expected when the character in question has important role to play in future titles.

Overall, I can say that it was a really nice DLC and a great ending to Origins if you are a Morrigan fan (imo of course).

I will also add that DLC for Dragon Age wasn't on the same level as those for ME2. There were some real gems like Stone Prisoner, Leliana's Song and Witch Hunt, but also pretty bad stuff like Darkspawn Chronicles and Golems of Amgarrak.
My opinion is that the quality of DLC varied because there wasn't a clear plan for what they wanted to achieve and instead they just kept trying out different things to see how people will respond.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 11 septembre 2010 - 08:22 .


#9698
Brockololly

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OK, finished playing Witch Hunt (again) and figured I'd take the time to write a suitably long winded  and rambling review.

MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT INCOMING!


In short, I very much enjoyed it, given my low expectations. And ultimately, I think your enjoyment of Witch Hunt will vary greatly depending on what you were expecting to get out of it. If you sought closure to the Morrigan romance it fits the bill wonderfully. If you were expecting a full fledged conclusion to all of Origins and full closure to Morrigan's story, you'll be disappointed. if you are expecting answers from Morrigan, you'll be disappointed.  

Some thoughts I had while playing through it several times:
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No rogue? I was surprised Ariane wasn't a rogue and freaked out since I play as a warriior or mage most of the time. Luckily though the very few locked chests and the couple of locked doors in the Mage Tower aren't hiding anything of note.
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Farewell to the DW Warrior: Considering DA2 is nixing the DW and Archer warrior, Ariane (and many of my Couslands) will be defunct going forward. So Witch Hunt is the last hurrah for the DW warrior. BioWare thinks they're redundant, but I always enjoyed them- oh well...
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The Premise: Some people say "Why would my Warden even be looking for Morrigan?" If you play as the Orlesian the Orlesian's codex gives a nice breakdown of the Templars hunting for Morrigan thinking she is a dangerous blood mage, the Crown sending soldiers after her and while the First Warden has tasked you with finding her to explore her role in the Blight, it mentions dissent within the Wardens as to how Morrigan's capture should be handled (kill or let live). Yet, that sort of broad manhunt isn't touched on at all in the DLC.

Obviously if you romanced her, you've got a fine reason. But its the whole huge "manhunt" setup that in my dream Witch Hunt expack could have been fleshed out so much more and probably made for a more compelling and more complete experience- but I'll get to that later.
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The Characters: BioWare seems averse, for whatever reason, to bring back Origins characetrs and reunite them with the Warden as companions. So we end up with a rotating door of new companions for the Warden in Awakening or the DLC. WH gives us back Dog which seriously increased my enjoyment of the DLC. Then you've got Ariane and Finn. Personally, I really really liked both of them. But it was when Ariane, Finn and Dog were all together bantering back and forth that they felt like fleshed out characters. The little things in their banter is what made them enjoyable to me.

Compared to Sketch and Tug from Leliana's Song I enjoyed Ariane and Finn much more- they felt like they had an actual purpose in joining the Warden and seemed like real characters, not mindless followers, which is what I felt Tug and Sketch were. Again, they talked a good deal and in the very short time the DLC lasts, I felt like I knew more about them and their personalities than some of the Awakening companions.

Maybe though its because my expectations were so low in how the new companions would act. I wasn't expecting much at all in the way of banter or dialogue and I figured they'd be boring disposable cardboard cutouts. Chee did a very nice job in their banter and having Ariane comment on the ring was brilliant- for once in a BioWare RPG, the companion characters actually voice concern or an interest in the PC and aren't narcissistic whiners demanding you be their personal therapists. So I liked Ariane as being a Dalish that wasn't a total **** like Velanna. And Finn was a nice dorky alternative to Alistair-lite Anders. And Dog was his usual awesome self, I think in part because Chee was writing his role again. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing these characters show up down the road again.
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Location, Location, Location:  Much like Leliana's Song, at first glance it seems like Witch Hunt is a retcon of Origins in the effort to recycle environments. And it most likely is- all signs pointed towards Morrigan going West through the Frostbacks and to Orlais, where you even had the peculiarly named Urthemiel Plateua waiting. But BioWare handwaved it away on the DLC page as saying no trace of Morrigan could be found west. Ok, but it just screams to me that they had larger plans for this which were cut back when they killed their 2 year DLC plan.

So Morrigan is in Ferelden again and really I didn't mind revisting old locations this time. Sure the levels were mostly exacttly the same (although I'm glad the Templars finished scrubbing the floors), but you do have recognition that time has passed, so it didn't feel quite as much like BioWare was trying to pass off old locales as new, but rather you were the Warden just revisting some of your old stomping grounds.

I think this is just the problem with the DLC as we've seen since Awakening was released and again, its a matter of expectations. My thought is that perhaps the DLC team blew their budget with Awakening and as such level wise, thats why we didn't see any new levels in any of the subsequent DLC. That and the fact that they're seemingly throwing more effort into DA2- thus why they killed off DAO's DLC plan  more than a year early.  Whereas with ME2, they haven't had one big expack, but rather less frequent, higher quality DLC that uses new assets. Personally, I'd rather BioWare go all out one way or the other- either just make high quality expansion packs that move the story forward, or focus on ME style interesting, deep missions that don't seem like afterthoughts and add new content- whether thats levels, lore or gameplay.
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Timeline? I hope BioWare clears up the Origins timeline. Witch Hunt, according to most material is supposed to take place 1 year post killing the Archdemon. So you figure Awakening started a couple months after Origins and maybe lasted up to 6 months. Giving a several month gap between the end of Awakening and the start of Witch Hunt. Yet if you look at the map in Witch Hunt, on Vigil's Keep it mentions being 2 years since the MOther's attack. And if you look at Denerim, it mentions "years" having passed since the Blight. Considering DA is all about the timeline and history of Thedas, whats the deal here?
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Length: Witch Hunt is short. My first go through, reading every entry in the Mage Library and purposefully trying to take in everything, it lasted me about 1 hour 45 minutes. Subsequent runs usually clock in at under an hour. I really don't mind a DLC or game being short provided it was quality time. And Witch Hunt is only $7, so its not exactly pricey. My complaint is that it seems rushed and that stuff was left on the drawing board. Maybe its just me being a Morrigan fan, but this really could have been so much more. The framework is all there for an epic quest and what we ended up getting is like reading the Cliff Notes to something that should have been much greater, IMO.
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Lore Galore: One of my issues with Leliana's Song was that we didn't really learn anything about the world of DA in it. With Witch Hunt though there are boatloads of lore. Whether its some of the littel Easter Eggs in the Library or going back through Cadash Thaig learning more about Kal-Sharok and the ELven refugees, when you're uncovering some  of the history of Thedas, it makes the quests seem a little more significant. So even if you're grinding through Cadasg Thaig again, its neat to be uncovering stuff about how its been built on Elven ruins and how the legendary Arlathan connects to it.

On the topic of lore too, I like how it seemed you were actually uncovering lost secrets with Arlathan and the Eluvians.  The whole Lights of Arlathan part reminded me of the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest to an extent (which Chee also wrote)- so it felt like not only were you dealing with the immediate in tracking down Morrigan, but you were learning a bit about the past as well. I like that.
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Continuity! Fact: Witch Hunt has more continuity and connection to Origins than Awakening. The little shout outs to events or things from Origins were great. Whether its the return of the talking Tevinter statue, some of the banter (random cake fetching Mabari?) or the return of the Eluvian, or the codex entry on thespot where you killed Flemeth, its the little things like that which add to the immersion of the game.
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The Little Things: Again, the little moments like Ariane's reference to the ring or Dog slobbering all over Morrigan  put a smile on my face and took this DLC from an average one to a much more enjoyable one, IMO.
Posted Image
How can you not love that moment?:wub:
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The Ending: This is the problem with this DLC. If you romanced Morrigan and go through the mirror, the ending is lovely, but still it just sort of abruptly ends- at least slowly pan up from the last mirror shot or something. And if you don't go with Morrigan, that whole ending scene with you walking away is just weird. Its a cinematics issue I guess, but if this was supposed to cap off all of Origins, I wouldn't have minded some epilogue slides to give closure to everything else.
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HERPDERP Face:  I liked the notion that  the Warden would smle after kissing Morrigan and getting ready to go through the mirror, but shouldn't he have been a little apprehensive about stepping into the unknown, especially when Morrigan isn't willing to tell him anything even though he'll presumably find out soon enough anyway? I mean what is up with the goofy smile face? It makes creepy smiling Shep look good:
Posted Image

Work on the facial expressions for DA2 please?
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Questions and (Lack of) Answers: This is the meat and potatoes of this DLC, or rather thats how it was marketed and that was the big draw- that you get some answers from Morrigan. And yet, did we really get any answers? Not really.  Again though, it comes down to expectations- considering we relize Morrigan yet has a bigger role to play in DA, I think most of us here realized we wouldn't get answers to all of our questions. 

If you go through as an Orlesian, you (rightfully) can't question Morrigan at al, she just skips to talking about Flemeth. And there is even a cunning or persuade check if you straight up tell Morrigan you want answers. But what answers did we get from Morrigan?

- We know th OGB is a boy
- We know the OGB is an innocent, that does not realize his destiny- so he's a normal kid, at least in terms of him not knowing he has the soul of an Old God
- We know Morrigan plans to leave this world and go somewhere beyond the Fade to prepare the OGB for what is to come
- Such preparation requires time and power for Morrigan to be "successful" (successful at what!?)
-Morrigan "dares not" tell the Warden anymore of her plan
- Morrigan says that Flemeth "has tricked her way past death and more. She is no more finished than I am."
- Flemeth does not simply crave immortality
-Flemeth is not just a blood mage, an abomination- she is not even truly human
-Change is coming regardless if you did the Ritual or not
- If you did the Ritual, Morrigan says "The Ritual was but a means to an end. A herald of what is to come"
- With the Orlesian, when asked if Flemeth has something to do with the Blight, Morrigan says" Perhaps more than you would even believe."
- With the Orlesian, Morrigan says: "Go. Tell your Wardens to be wary. Tell them to watch for what is to come."
- Morrigan claims her "plans are not half so villainous as you seem to think they are."
- We're left with a myserious "gift" if you don't go with Morrigan

So yeah, we don't learn much from Morrigan. But in a $7 DLC, did we expect to have everything answered? No, but surely BioWare could have answered SOME questions. Maybe in the course of the DLC as you're adventuring, you find clues regarding Morrigan's plans or what the DR means and all that. So that when you confront Morrigan you're able to perhaps ask more pointed questions which cause her to more exactly explain her position or her plans.

At least for the Warden that follows her we can imagine they'll understand Morrigan's plans very soon and perhaps the "gift" Morrigan leaves explains what her plans are, such that the Warden can be on the lookout for the "change" that is to come.

But I think in large part how you feel about Witch Hunt comes down to expectations and BioWare's maginificent....
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Marketing and Expectations:
This is where BioWare royally messed up with Witch Hunt, IMO. The problems are many: the fact that this is the last Origins DLC means people affixed all sorts of hopes and expectations to finding answers and closure since BioWare hyped up that this was the Warden's "final quest."
Then you have stuff like this in the trailer:
Posted Image
Was Morrigan's fate revealed? Not really- we knew she wanted power to fight off Flemeth, all we know is that she's going to get that power in Mirror World. But her eventual fate is far from being revealed.

Then you had these spash ads:
Posted Image
Posted Image

Now that first one surprised me, and I PM'd Gaider about it, asking whether Witch Hunt would really answer ALL of our Morrigan questions. His responses:

I wrote Morrigan's part in that DLC, yes. Sheryl wrote the rest of it.
I don't think anything says it answers ALL questions. That would be a silly expectation.

Dave


Then I linked him to that first splash ad (which was later changed to the one below)

That's what it says, huh? Super.
I think we'll just change the wording. Closure is the goal, here-- not answering ALL your questions. :)

Dave


The problem is that the marketing at large for this DLC made it seem as if it would give solid answers when it doesn't come close. At best it teases more questions and hints at the future in very very very vague ways. So if you came into it looking for closure outside of the romance with Morrigan, I can totally see why people may be disappointed or feel cheated. But I don't think the intention was ever to provide some sort of final closure with Morrigan's story. We certainly knew as much and if you went around the forums you'd have known as much to- just look at Gaider's posts in the Witch Hunt thread:

David Gaider wrote...

My original point was that the other romances at least got to talk to their romances after the final battle. You got some wrap-up. Maybe  you want more, sure... more more more. Why not? But Morrigan fans didn't
get anything.

And, incidentally, this isn't the "Morrigan romance DLC" you're perhaps picturing. Morrigan's mystery  affects all the Wardens in a way-- some certainly more personally pertinent than others. Regardless, this is a way to wrap things up.

Could we have done other party-focused stories? Sure, tons. I love Zevran, so why not? There's a million things we could do, but we're stopping the Origins train here with this particular tale--  and I think it's an appropriate place to end, myself, considering all  that Morrigan represents.


David Gaider wrote...

Rama Ruma wrote...
Wait.....they are making DLC for Morrigan.......doesn't this basically just mean they are jipping her story in order to move on?

Who says that Morrigan's story ends with the DLC? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png


So its clear final answers were never going to be given. But then the marketing shouldn't have made it seem answers would be given- but then again, who would have bought Witch Hunt if it advertised: "more frustratingly vague, evasive comments from Morrigan!" But still, it would have been nice to get SOME answers out of Morrigan. As it stands its almost comical and a farce- whenever we meet back up with Morrigan will she be just as evasive? Even after the Warden has been through the MIrror?  
=========================================================================

=========================================================================

In the end, this DLC could have been so much more. It SHOULD have been part of an expansion pack instead of Awakening. The framework and skeleton for an expansion pack level story is all there and Witch Hunt feels like the outline of something that got scrapped in favor of working on DA2. Which is a shame. I'm happy that we got it over simply being left with the DR ending though. But at the end of the day, especially if you wanted romantic closure with Morrigan, it is absolutely worth the $7. Was the marketing terrible? Absolutely. Should there have been more concrete answers and explanations given. Absolutely. Yet compared to the total rubbish DLC like Feastday Gifts or Darkspawn Chronicles, Witch Hunt is good- not great, but not terrible either. But for me at least, seeing my Warden go through the mirror made the whole thing worth it.:wizard:

Modifié par Brockololly, 11 septembre 2010 - 08:32 .


#9699
MKDAWUSS

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Master Shiori wrote...


Personally, I really enjoyed having both Ariane and Finn in the party. I especially loved Ariane since she is the only companion after Origins that not only comments on your relationship with Morrigan but actually shows simpathy for what you went through. I really wish we could get her and Leliana togather. I imagine they would get along quite well as long as the MAker was kept out of the conversation.

Finn was a really entertaining character and make a good match with Ariane and the dog.


Ariane was a nice DLC short-story companion member (just a few conversations short of being on par with the Awakenings companions), one that I could easily picture as good friends with the Warden as time goes on.

Finn was a different story - I found him to be a blend of Saturday Morning Cartoon Character and Wynne...

#9700
GardenSnake

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Swoo wrote...

Oh, and Mirror World is City 17. 'Varterral' my ass.

Yes! Posted Image Morgan Freeman to the rescue! Morgan meet Morrigan, Morrigan meet Morgan Posted Image

I also agree with your point about when Morrigan talked for what seemed like a minute straight, she really didn't seem to be saying anything at all. I don't know what it was for me, maybe if the two could have just reminisced for a bit like in.... oh I don't know, LAIR OF THe SHADOW BROKER!! Mentioning how Alistair seems to be destroying Fereldan's reputation as king and how I shouldn't have put him on the throne or asking how 'that girl' (that girl being Leliana) is doing and why I'm still with her seeing as the fact that my canon Warden was still together (at least I assume so) with her during the dlc. Ya, that could have been a nightmare trying to keep track of all of those flags, but hey, it would have made the conversation much more enjoyable and believable.