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THE Morrigan Discussion and Research Thread *Infested with Bugs Yet Again!*


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#951
Terra_Ex

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glenboy24 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

akrep77 wrote...

Sorry If I interrupt something here, but I just finished DAO:A and I didn't see the slide about the warden went after black haired witch (thanks to the bug which caused the game not to see my romance with Morrigan)

So my question is, should I replay the game just to get this slide and have my romance back just for upcoming titles and expansions? or is there any more practical ways to get my romance back? Because I don't want to loose my romance with Morrigan if there will be any upcoming games and if we would have an option to import our PC from awakenings.


My advice would be to replay Origins and make sure Morrigan's aproval meter shows "love" before you kill the Archdemon.

You can achieve this by not talking to her again after she gives you her farewell speech at Denerim's gates.

This should let you have the necessery romance flags that trigger the proper epilogue slide in Awakening, but you will miss on her ring epilogue in Origins.


I'm acutally still a Tad confused about all this. Let me see if I understand at least *some* of it. Keep in mind, I'm playing on the Console version, so I don't know if I'm in the same camp as you folks. Ok, so, if you've Romanced Morrigan till the close of the game, and you've done the Dark Ritual with her, there is a Bug that automatically drops her approval raiting to Fond and not Love when she talks with you at the Gates of Denerim along with everyone else in the, "Well, this is it..." pre final battle scene. You guys mention however that if you *don't* speak with her the bug doesn't happen, but as far as I can tell you *have* to speak to Morrigan in the scene along with everyone else. Regardless of that, if Morrigan's approval goes down, you can still get her back in Love with you via gifts like the Mirror or a crap load of Jewlery, but doing so causes you to loose the 'Ring' Epilogue but gain the 'Seeks Her Out,' Epilogue in Awakening. My questions are, Is there *any* reference to the Warden and Morrigan in the DAO Epilogue if you loose the 'Ring' slide? Also, has no one found a way, other than Terra_Ex's mod, to gain *both* Epilogues for DAO and DAA?  


That's not the scene we are talking about. After the scene at the Denerim gates where you speak to all your party members in turn and at any point before reaching the Archdemon, you can manually engage her in conversation. Once and once only you will get the option to say "I want to talk about last night."
It is this dialog path that sets the STILL_IN_LOVE flag and unsets MORRIGAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE. STILL_IN_LOVE is a requirement for the Origins "Morrigan's Ring" epilogue slide, which imo is an oversight. Logically, you should still get that epilogue scene irrespective of whether you you speak to her or not.

Sadly, speaking to her here will lock you out of the Awakening "search for dark harided sorceress" epilogue slide because that is dependent on MORRIGAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE being set to true. Hence, the one or the other scenario we have. Its undoubtedly an oversight or case of the coders "forgetting" the possible outcomes at the end of the game.

The only other way to get both epilogues is by using the Mirror in a post game save, which sets the MORRIGAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE flag to true, which is the flag that Awakening seems to check upon import. So long as you use the Mirror in the post game, you're fine since you already got the epilogue slide by talking to her at the end of the game. 

It's utterly stupid, there was no need to force the STILL_IN_LOVE flag at the end of Origins, and the coders have simply created another mess of their own making in doing so.

Hope this clarifies it for you.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 19 avril 2010 - 07:16 .


#952
Shade of Wolf

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Brockololly wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Your "favorite Warden" from DAO threw his life away to go look for her. He could just settle in Denerim and live as a rich hero and have everything he ever wanted. But no. After Awakening he abandons all his privilegdes because he felt the need to find the woman he loves(the game doesn't realy give you a choice). He doesn't know what he will find, he's not even sure she will accept him. There is something inside him that has been burning him for years. He wants to look into her eyes and ask... WHY? That's it. Nothing more.

Now imagine playing DA2 and meeting Morrigan with your new character. That "other" guy -- who is now a footnote in Morrigan's codex entry -- wasted all these years and found nothing, and you just accidentally bump in her with this new guy you don't really care about(yet anyway). How  would you feel?

If DA2 is anything like that, then I'll pass.


EXACTAMUNDO!

Why would Bioware bother to put in the whole "search for Morrigan" choices if they have no intention of following through in future games? Are they just that cruel to get our hopes up? Not to sound like a whiney brat but Its not enough to just have Morrigan in the future games- I want to play as my Warden searching and reuniting with Morrigan. If the Warden is relegated to a codex entry of "And he searched and searched for his lost love Morrigan but never found her before going to the Deep Roads for his Calling" then I'd be majorly peeved and  my faith in Bioware would take a "Brockololly disapproves -1000000."

I get that Morrigan's story may end tragically or might not be all sunshine and puppies, but at least let the player play through to the end and try to get a "good" ending with Morrigan or at least be in control of the PC to see it through. Its kind of like my problem with Viconia in Throne of Bhaal- having her get killed off in the epilogue to make sure she gets a suitably tragic ending is weak storytelling in a medium like CRPGS which emphasizes player agency.

If you're going to go the whole tragic route, make sure the player gets to experience the tragedy in an "emotionally engaging" way within the game, not the epilogue slides...But then again, it would be nice if a tragic ending was only one possibility and that while maybe difficult to achieve and not without sacrifice, a "good" romantic ending could be possible with Morrigan.

Now we're talkin'!

#953
Shade of Wolf

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akrep77 wrote...

Sorry If I interrupt something here, but I just finished DAO:A and I didn't see the slide about the warden went after black haired witch (thanks to the bug which caused the game not to see my romance with Morrigan)

So my question is, should I replay the game just to get this slide and have my romance back just for upcoming titles and expansions? or is there any more practical ways to get my romance back? Because I don't want to loose my romance with Morrigan if there will be any upcoming games and if we would have an option to import our PC from awakenings.

Well that's pretty much what I'm doing, unless you have it on pc, then you can mod to your heart's delight, unlike myself who made the mistake of buying on xbox ;(

#954
macrocarl

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What if you don't have said mirror post arch demon punch out but go back to the camp and give her the fool's feast items or whatever they are called. Will that set Morrigan back to 'in love'? If it does then could we still make the save in camp and then import that character in DA?



I'm a wee confused. I gave her the mirror a zillion saves ago and would hate to have to start back at some random place in game to zag the bug. <-- If that is the case, then screw it I guess, tis not worth the trouble IMHO.

#955
Master Shiori

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macrocarl wrote...

What if you don't have said mirror post arch demon punch out but go back to the camp and give her the fool's feast items or whatever they are called. Will that set Morrigan back to 'in love'? If it does then could we still make the save in camp and then import that character in DA?

I'm a wee confused. I gave her the mirror a zillion saves ago and would hate to have to start back at some random place in game to zag the bug. <-- If that is the case, then screw it I guess, tis not worth the trouble IMHO.


No, you have to give her the mirror.

The reason for this is that the mirror triggers a conversation with Morrigan where 1 of your replies can reactivate the romance and bring Morrigan's aproval back to "love".

#956
Master Shiori

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Just found the following blog entry in another DA:O forum and thought it should be posted here as well.

It offers a rather well thought out opinion on Morrigan, Flemeth, Dark Ritual and possible speculation on how these things can continue in the future games.

Recommended read for all Morrigan fans.

gameinformer.com/blogs/members/b/ejronin_blog1/archive/2009/11/15/dragon-age-origins-dark-ritual-not-disappointing-in-context-to-potential-sequal-plotline-an-opinion.aspx

The point here isn’t to necessarily spoil the game however, it is to
explain away players’ disappointment with the “Dark Ritual” ending as I
heard and read many players are. It is important to note that the game
does a very good job of ensuring that all rewards have their own
consequences. Saving a life costs a life and eerie balance is at play
the whole game through.

Dragon Age: Origins is a game that
players should be really happy with in that it’s lived up to the title.
It is a wonderful introduction to the world, the lore, and the idea of a
much larger chain of events over the Blight and darkspawn. The very
rich story with many layers and possibilities, converge on the night
prior to the final battle with the Archdemon. Most of the storyline
details aren’t in the character dialogue but in the numerous codexes
found throughout the game. Codexes reveal the past and present on
goings, motives of certain groups, and shed light on the who’s who in
the game world. The main player character (henceforth “PC”) can come
from one of 6 different beginnings and while the meat of the story will
differ slightly, they’ll end up with more or less the same band of
companions. How the companions feel about the PC hinge upon the choices
made in what side-quests the PC embarks upon.

I played a male
City Elf who killed the Arl's son that raped my friend and stole my
betrothed, became the Grey Warden Templar / Bezerker, saved Sten, named
my Dog "Ghengis", spared Wynne, drank some of the Darkspawn blood in the
Warden’s Keep, killed Flemmeth, only took a pinch of ashes from the urn
to save the Arl Eamon, saved Connor, fought with the militia at
Redcliffe, made Shale remember that she was a dwarf, destroyed the
anvil, sided with Harrowmont, removed the curse from the Werewolves and
Dalish, exposed the slavers in the Alienage, let Allister kill Loghain
and imprison the would-be queen, and… performed the Dark Ritual with
Morrigan.
 
The maturity level of the game plays on the maturity
of comprehension of the player. DA:O reminds me very much of the
emotional plays that Final Fantasy VI (and in some cases Final Fantasy
X)makes - birth, death, love, pain, abandonment, loneliness, self
awareness, friendship, loyalty, betrayal... all of these things aren't
so black and white in terms of right and wrong and many of them require a
sacrifice in areas to obtain or rectify that we're usually unwilling to
do so easily, especially at the expense of others. Young hearts and
minds have a very hard time coming to grips with how unfair these
motions can be once realized, or how unfair getting them in our favor
really is and veterans of these emotional battles grow easily weary
because we understand the tolls they take and witnessed the cost,
sometimes first hand. It's unpleasant, cruel, and devious and that's the
nature of it yet we still search it out hoping that in the end things
will work out fine and any transgressions are justified by the outcome,
because... because we have at least hope.

DARK
RITUAL ENDING AS I SEE IT:

Morrigan is a character
that as an anti-heroine, parallels Loghain – she’s integral to the
overall success of quelling the Blight, but she’s got separate motive
for doing so and with potentially great cost. This raises questions
about Morrigan being a heroine at all, or part of a grander scheme of a
greater evil. Personally I think that Morrigan, is a character torn
between what she is and what she wants to be. Dissociative and callous,
Morrigan speaks her mind, often just to see the reaction of other
people. Some might call her someone with sociopathic attitudes...
perhaps someone who is generally indifferent and apathetic. She has a
dark curiosity that rubs many people the wrong way at the right times,
she's dangerous and much about her is kept secret by her but can she
really be blamed?

There is a lot we don’t know about Morrigan and
even less about Flemmeth, making them two characters that we’re driven
to explore to no conclusive ends (for now). Flemmeth and Morrigan prove
to be secretive characters revealing only what they need to manipulate a
scenario giving them a dark feel. But in time enough can be figured out
that indicate they might both be members of the Dragon Cult.

Raised
by Flemmeth, the shapeshifting witch who allegedly "ate" men after sex
with them and intended to use Morrigan as a host to continue her own
life as she had done with allegedly dozens of previous “daughters”.  At
least this is what we’re told. Morrigan's character depths arise from a
lack of information. As players we make assumptions based on what little
info we have. We want her to be one way or another, not very willing to
give into the idea of a tertiary state of mind – she’s trying to hide
her real lineage for fear of rejection or persecution. She's not
dissuaded to be something other than what she is and certainly not
willing to express herself in an open exchange for a period of time to
subdue any previous assumptions. This then makes us as the audience
creates extra space for character persona mobility - Is she this? Does
she intend to do that? Does she want those? All various strings of her
personality that we don't know but want to make room for, so we do.

The
“Dark Ritual” is what I think really sets the tone for a sequel. The PC
has the option to refuse the ritual, refuse to try and talk Allister
into the ritual and given that it’s completely turned down Morrigan will
leave, bitter and cold. Either way, Morrigan will leave but if the
ritual is performed she’ll fight and then leave as opposed to leaving
before the big fight. Morrigan was one of my main party members through
the game anyway so she was helpful in the fight and keeping the PC ‘in
game’ I felt it made sense for the PC to keep her around for as long as
possible, hoping to convince her to change her mind and not run off as
she promises after the Dark Ritual.

No matter what the PC does,
Morrigan leaves - it is unavoidable and the player has no control over
it. We must simply watch helplessly as she walks away.

Still, why
put a lot of work into building a relationship with Morrigan if it’s
known that it will ultimately end in heartbreak and disaster? Morrigan
insists on several occasions that the player will regret being close to
her in the end or regret leaving her in the end (foreshadowing that
Morrigan is integral to the plot irrespective of choices, and that no
matter what you do, it's going to 'hurt'). Both cases have regret and if
the player chooses Morrigan and Morrigan has a high level of affection
towards the PC, the Epilogue states that with Morrigan’s Ring, the
player senses when Morrigan thinks of him and feels her regret and
sorrow (assuming Morrigan strongly ‘loved’ the PC).

What we do
know of them is what we’re told by their characters and what we read in
the codex as myth and legend, so we never really do know what to
believe. Thus, we’ve got to experience it for ourselves. We only assume
that Morrigan and Flemmeth are human witches because they look like it,
but they’re both shape-shifters and their characters constantly point
out that things are not as they appear. Morrigan tells the PC that she
shape-shifts by living as the creature she’s taken form. If Flemmeth is
also a shapeshifter and shifts to a High Dragon, then it’s apparent
they’re part of the Dragon Cult (since they have to be among that to
which they shift).  She also tells the PC that she’s ventured from the
woods before and walked among people in the. Morrigan is the only
character to have unnaturally colored eyes, like that of a reptile and
the Dragon Cult codex explains that cult members who drink of the dragon
blood are sometimes affected physically. The codex also explains that
cult members turned to worship dragons because their Old Gods failed
them. The plot thickens and we can begin to see that Morrigan in terms
of the Dark Ritual may be more complex than what she’s telling us.
 
Players
are left unclear as to who was lying about whom (or if at all) between
the two - they could be in cahoots or they could be at odds. If players
embark on the quest to kill Flemmeth she explains that if allowed to
live she'll eventually find Morrigan and deal with her in an undisclosed
manner but that players can take the Grimoire. Maybe it’s a case of "A
teacher teaches a student everything the student knows, not everything
the teacher knows." If the players kill Flemmeth (who seemed to fully
expect the players to return and try to kill her and hints that it isn’t
the first time Morrigan has tried this), Morrigan expresses her
uncertainty that Flemmeth is really dead and that if she’s not, will
have to find some way to take care of it later.  It brings the idea that
Flemmeth is a lot more powerful than we know. The conversation with
Flemmeth indicates that the story of possession is something to motivate
the PC, but ultimately untrue. Morrigan also states that getting
pregnant is part of why Flemmeth sent her with the PC – and never talks
about anything other than what the Black Grimoire contained, not what
Flemmeth's Grimoire contained so, if Flemmeth is truly dead why continue
with Flemmeth’s order to conceive?

The only two logical reason I
can come up with is that Morrigan and Flemmeth are as I talked about
earlier, part of the Dragon Cult. The Dragon Cult codex explains about
their practices,a nd Morrigan says she wants to get the Old God soul
from the Archdemon and transfer it to the unborn child and teach  it the
good of things. I think that this is Morrigans way of doing exactly
what the Chantry is: working to get their God to come back their people
once more. The other reason is that Morrigan IS Flemmeth - if you go
through all dialogue options in the Dark Ritual conversation and have
taken on the killing of Flemmeth quest then you'll notice that Morrigan
says some of the exact phrases Flemmeth did in your conversation with
her. So, either Morrigan got possessed in studying the grimoire or
Flemmeth wasn't dead and possessed Morrigan. I mean really... the "Robes
of Possession" weren't all that hard to find, and if you don't kill
Flemmeth, she gives them to you to give Morrigan anyway.

WHY THE DARK RITUAL ENDING NEED NOT
DISAPPOINT:

Perhaps the greatest frustration
players felt with Morrigan stems from the consistent pattern of game
stories to give the game players explanations of other players’ motives.
Players have to accept that Morrigan is secretive and doesn’t owe the
player anything in her own mind. People are selfish, secretive, and
manipulative and that doesn’t always make them bad people. Morrigan was
all of these, but she was also someone that was worth saving because
despite her damaged persona, players could see tiny slivers good, and
tiny seeds of hope. The game however, presents the story in a way that
nothing is free and heroes make sacrifices, sometimes unwillingly.
Loghain was an integral character in context to this theme. He became
ultimately treasonous for the love of his country, left with a reckless
daydreaming King Cailan to defend against the impending Blight, having
suffered through betrayal and loss of his own past loves… Loghain forced
the idea of dealing with harsh reality in harsh ways that often
contradicted the altruistic nature often associated with heroes and
exemplified the phrase, “The road to hell is paved with good
intentions.” - Which means that you can plan on doing good, simply
wanting to do good doesn’t mean it’ll end up that way.

We come to
expect equal exchange between the characters. Leliana expresses her
concern for people openly and is revealed to possibly retell stores of
her vision to garner attention, no matter how negative; Allister
eventually tells us of his lineage, and why he keeps it secret (which
contrasts Morrigan's own secretive nature) and even Loghain has the
fortitude to tell the Landsmeet he felt his evils were just with and
objectively valid reasoning in context to his ultimate goal.

If
partying with Allister and Leliana in tow alongside Morrigan we can hear
the contrast of virtues between the three. Leliana and Morrigan debate
in much the same way an atheist and theist debate the existence God,
both with rational explanations for their belifs as they pertain to
their individual viewpoints. Allister and Morrigan often squabble over
morality from their individual standpoints, again with very valid
rationale. It sheds light on Morrigan's egocentric style brought about
by a life of isolation, prompting the PC to work to alter that and offer
a perspective from someone we assume she respects and hopefully trusts -
making the eventual 'betrayal' all that much more hurtful.

Ultimately
the PC runs from death, thus Morrigan runs from the PC. Something
gained and something lost, and it is important remember that Morrigan
states in the conversation about the conception of a child that if the
PC chooses to take the killing blow and not partake in the dark ritual
therefore sacrificing yourself, that she'd mourn for you. What do we
believe? We know she’s hiding something, we know she’s no issue with
lying and often seeks an end for personal gain or power… but she’s not
evil, just chaotic.

We can't simply assume that Morrigan will be
'ours' just because we made her happy or that she 'should' see that we
care thus so she should also. Simply being willing to be transparent
with someone is no reason to assume they'd be equally transparent,
especially with someone like Morrigan who, has depth based on what we
don't know as opposed to what we do know.  The most painful love is
unrequited love, yet it is one of the many facets of love that is very
real - if not the most real because it stabs us in the front and not the
back, and we have to deal with the anxiety of watching it all happen
without being able to control it. Perhaps the pain of it comes from the
idea that Morrigan is ultimately professed to be a friend and a lover,
and we'd rather be stabbed in the back, totally unaware, never having to
deal with watching the perceived betrayal unfold and that backstabbing
never has a good reason therefore no reason to search it out. Was she
wrong for being forthright and telling us to avoid her? No, at least she
cared enough to be honest and it now becomes our choice to be hurt in
the end. It challenged our own worldviews in the game and contrasts them
against the background experiences of the other characters with which
we interact. Morrigan is the prime example of this and the only
character that we can't just kill, abandon or force to leave. She's like
a fresco - unique and ornate but not without serious flaws that detract
from overall sense of total perfection. Her character is well written
and she's supposed to lead us on -that's her role, and she ultimately
does what we as players struggle to do through the entire game - deal
with the reality of the situations no matter who it hurts or why, even
if it also hurts herself. Layer this with overtones of emotions like
love and there needs to be less explanation because there is less reason
for explanation to be given.

When I got married my wife would
sometimes ask me "Why do you love me?" and at that time I could go on
for days explaining it, giving examples of reasons. Five and a half
years later there needs to be no reason other than I simply do - there
are still reasons, but they're nothing more than accessories to it and
not reasons for it. In this case, love becomes the strongest of
intangible emotions only equaled by hate. Spend enough time with it, and
it is just what it is. We've got to accept that from Morrigan as a
character and know that in the sequel there will be much more revealed
about her motives and whether or not she truly did love the PC or were
we just a tool for her own ends (and then consider that over time,
things change and she may realize that she did love us more than she
thought - you know, that whole distance makes the heart grow fonder
thing?). The point is, that Morrigan disappointed many people because
they either know someone like Morrigan or they, deep down inside, are
Morrigan. We long for people to work to open us up and we feel that if
they did then we'd go to them, like some fantasy romance novel yet we
know we wouldn't. Fear wells up and... we choke. We're comfortable in
that pain and loneliness because we've know it for so long. Conversely,
those people who we know who are like Morrigan we've taken time to learn
who they are... but not having been in a situation like in the game, we
can only assume that they'd reciprocate and 'love' us back. Anything
less is unfair, but love isn't fair. Someone always loses even if we
don't see it.

In summary, Morrigan represents everything we
dislike about ourselves and others. The shallow mental judgmental
narratives that underline the day to day conversations between people,
our lack of faith and values in ourselves, the short sighted self
involvement and over/under analytical propensity to see things that are
not there or never were to satiate our curiosity and quell the thirst
for knowledge and understanding, and our desire to give meaning to
things that have none or redirect off handed comments from others about
parts of our lives they’d never understand - all come to the single
character, Morrigan. Some players want her to go away but she won't
(well… you can kick her out, but she comes back), she's too important
and self exposing to be written off as a cheap feral floozy while others
move to embrace her in a futile attempt to change that which we have no
control. She's what we love to hate and hate to love about ourselves
and society. And yet one last possibility remains that the emotional
jolt Morrigan gives us is covered by the natural reaction of denial.
Perhaps Morrigan is a heartless shrew, and we choose to not admit it
given our emotional investments; that we played into her and Flemming's
hand - Morrigan may not have liked it, but like Loghain, dealing with
the reality of it takes precedence over the fantasy world our emotions
have created to shelter us.
 

SEQUEL
PREDICTION:
 

Given that the story generally
pushed to make the PC to live on (there are more choices to allow the PC
to live than die), and that the “Dark Ritual” ending is the most
developed and revealing I’m betting the following basic plotline will be
in Dragon Age 2.
 

The plotline of the second game would be
about Flemmeth, the Dragon Cult, and a possible showdown between members
of the Chantry and the Dragon Cultists. All of that while a political
battle between Ferelden and Orlain possibly igniting a minor war, The
Circle of the Magi, Blood Magic, the possible need to resurrect the
Anvil and the reuniting of both City and Dalish elves as a single
sovereign nation would be integral plotlines as well.


I think
if Flemmeth is alive then she would seek revenge on Morrigan and reveal
that ultimately the story of possessions are untrue in the fashion
they’re told. That, the name “Flemmeth” is used in conjunction with the
legend to better conceal and throw doubt as to the existence of the
Dragon Cult (though that could be a DLC quest and not part of the sequel
I suppose… discover the truth behind Flemmeth and afford yet another
possible ending).


Ultimately what I'd like to see is the
sequel take the work that the PC did to gain the approval and affection
from Morrigan get rewarded. Flemmeth’s (replacing Loghain in terms of
character purpose) return to corrupt the child would prompt Morrigan to
seek help from the PC, if even for selfish reasons, thus giving
opportunity to rekindle the lost relationship, but also put the two at
odds given that Morrigan was the one who walked out despite the protests
of the PC.  Morrigan would have to show bits of humanity and admit
wrongs and submit to the weakness that is love - and at what cost? The
answers would be in the sequel. This isn't to say that along the second
journey the PC couldn't have relationships with other men or women, but
the ultimate goal with Morrigan would be to get closure and continue the
relationship or move on. A nice touch would be placed in a situation
where you have to choose to kill her or defend her from death at the
hands of some of your companions (or convince them to also defend her)


I
think it would be neat if not perhaps too complicated in the mechanical
process to have the sequel look at the save game files of the first
game and allow the player to unlock main and plot dynamics based on
which of the endings players achieved. It may be too intricate for the
developers to worry about but Bioware is really good with complex
storytelling and plot lines, so who knows?...


CLOSING THOUGHTS:

Overall, the
game can be played out many different ways and has a few variations to
the ending, but the 'real' ending in my opinion is the Dark Ritual where
you're forced to suffer the loss, realize in time that your own
selfishness may end up causing a catastrophe thus proving part of
Morrigan's point about how love is a weakness to be avoided at all
costs. Dark, engaging, and thought provoking I think Bioware has set
themselves up for a short franchise that can be considered an instant
classic in the RPG area for multi-faceted characters, wealth of dynamic
outcomes with static plot underpinnings. Unfortunately, I feel that game
may be too deep for a lot of modern players and am somewhat afraid that
the sequel may end up having to get watered down to bring a lot of even
superficial questions to light. Leliana was a good character as were
all of them, and while I half expected Shale to mention 'meatbag' even
she was well done given her circumstances and background. It still
remains that Morrigan was the central character through every ending
thus, the subplot that carries into forming the core plot of the sequel.

 

Only three other games in the history of my gaming have
left me feeling the way I do about the story in context to how it's told
and where it takes us on an emotional level - Advent Rising, Final
Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy X (The Astyanax is in there somewhere,
but... that was a happy ending all around). Still I remain hopeful that
like Final Fantasy X-2, Dragon Age 2 will provide us will some multitude
of closure on the relationship between the PC and Morrigan while
retaining the mature emotional concepts and the things entailed with
them. Nevertheless, as the PC we've more or less asked for and walked
into the emotional trap set for us by the storytellers even though we
know it's coming - we feel we can at some point change it and make
things 'okay'. Bravo Bioware, bravo.


Modifié par Master Shiori, 19 avril 2010 - 08:28 .


#957
Barbarossa2010

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Count Viceroy wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

And yeah, Gaider maintains sustenance from the tears of bewildered fanboys and fangirls alike:

David Gaider wrote...

OneBadAssMother wrote...
So
David Gaider is the one responsible for driving my wife to tears with
Alistair?

My proudest moment.

I know it probably
makes me a bad person, but there are moments when the thought of all the
Alistair fangirls and Morrigan fanboys tearing out their hair and
rending their shirts pleases me inordinately.



Now see, that just pisses me off.  WTF Gaider?  

I actually was beginning to give him the benefit of the doubt in light of the edited material in the toolset, until I read that. 

Just my luck, the first great western RPG to emerge and it's controlled by sadists.  A great number of players will only suffer being punched in the face for so long.


It's called sarcasm.



I disagree, but you are certainly free to think so.

#958
Barbarossa2010

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Master Shiori wrote...

Just found the following blog entry in another DA:O forum and thought it should be posted here as well.

It offers a rather well thought out opinion on Morrigan, Flemeth, Dark Ritual and possible speculation on how these things can continue in the future games.

Recommended read for all Morrigan fans.

gameinformer.com/blogs/members/b/ejronin_blog1/archive/2009/11/15/dragon-age-origins-dark-ritual-not-disappointing-in-context-to-potential-sequal-plotline-an-opinion.aspx

The point here isn’t to necessarily spoil the game however, it is to
explain away players’ disappointment with the “Dark Ritual” ending as I
heard and read many players are. It is important to note that the game
does a very good job of ensuring that all rewards have their own
consequences. Saving a life costs a life and eerie balance is at play
the whole game through.

Dragon Age: Origins is a game that
players should be really happy with in that it’s lived up to the title.
It is a wonderful introduction to the world, the lore, and the idea of a
much larger chain of events over the Blight and darkspawn. The very
rich story with many layers and possibilities, converge on the night
prior to the final battle with the Archdemon. Most of the storyline
details aren’t in the character dialogue but in the numerous codexes
found throughout the game. Codexes reveal the past and present on
goings, motives of certain groups, and shed light on the who’s who in
the game world. The main player character (henceforth “PC”) can come
from one of 6 different beginnings and while the meat of the story will
differ slightly, they’ll end up with more or less the same band of
companions. How the companions feel about the PC hinge upon the choices
made in what side-quests the PC embarks upon.

I played a male
City Elf who killed the Arl's son that raped my friend and stole my
betrothed, became the Grey Warden Templar / Bezerker, saved Sten, named
my Dog "Ghengis", spared Wynne, drank some of the Darkspawn blood in the
Warden’s Keep, killed Flemmeth, only took a pinch of ashes from the urn
to save the Arl Eamon, saved Connor, fought with the militia at
Redcliffe, made Shale remember that she was a dwarf, destroyed the
anvil, sided with Harrowmont, removed the curse from the Werewolves and
Dalish, exposed the slavers in the Alienage, let Allister kill Loghain
and imprison the would-be queen, and… performed the Dark Ritual with
Morrigan.
 
The maturity level of the game plays on the maturity
of comprehension of the player. DA:O reminds me very much of the
emotional plays that Final Fantasy VI (and in some cases Final Fantasy
X)makes - birth, death, love, pain, abandonment, loneliness, self
awareness, friendship, loyalty, betrayal... all of these things aren't
so black and white in terms of right and wrong and many of them require a
sacrifice in areas to obtain or rectify that we're usually unwilling to
do so easily, especially at the expense of others. Young hearts and
minds have a very hard time coming to grips with how unfair these
motions can be once realized, or how unfair getting them in our favor
really is and veterans of these emotional battles grow easily weary
because we understand the tolls they take and witnessed the cost,
sometimes first hand. It's unpleasant, cruel, and devious and that's the
nature of it yet we still search it out hoping that in the end things
will work out fine and any transgressions are justified by the outcome,
because... because we have at least hope.

DARK
RITUAL ENDING AS I SEE IT:

Morrigan is a character
that as an anti-heroine, parallels Loghain – she’s integral to the
overall success of quelling the Blight, but she’s got separate motive
for doing so and with potentially great cost. This raises questions
about Morrigan being a heroine at all, or part of a grander scheme of a
greater evil. Personally I think that Morrigan, is a character torn
between what she is and what she wants to be. Dissociative and callous,
Morrigan speaks her mind, often just to see the reaction of other
people. Some might call her someone with sociopathic attitudes...
perhaps someone who is generally indifferent and apathetic. She has a
dark curiosity that rubs many people the wrong way at the right times,
she's dangerous and much about her is kept secret by her but can she
really be blamed?

There is a lot we don’t know about Morrigan and
even less about Flemmeth, making them two characters that we’re driven
to explore to no conclusive ends (for now). Flemmeth and Morrigan prove
to be secretive characters revealing only what they need to manipulate a
scenario giving them a dark feel. But in time enough can be figured out
that indicate they might both be members of the Dragon Cult.

Raised
by Flemmeth, the shapeshifting witch who allegedly "ate" men after sex
with them and intended to use Morrigan as a host to continue her own
life as she had done with allegedly dozens of previous “daughters”.  At
least this is what we’re told. Morrigan's character depths arise from a
lack of information. As players we make assumptions based on what little
info we have. We want her to be one way or another, not very willing to
give into the idea of a tertiary state of mind – she’s trying to hide
her real lineage for fear of rejection or persecution. She's not
dissuaded to be something other than what she is and certainly not
willing to express herself in an open exchange for a period of time to
subdue any previous assumptions. This then makes us as the audience
creates extra space for character persona mobility - Is she this? Does
she intend to do that? Does she want those? All various strings of her
personality that we don't know but want to make room for, so we do.

The
“Dark Ritual” is what I think really sets the tone for a sequel. The PC
has the option to refuse the ritual, refuse to try and talk Allister
into the ritual and given that it’s completely turned down Morrigan will
leave, bitter and cold. Either way, Morrigan will leave but if the
ritual is performed she’ll fight and then leave as opposed to leaving
before the big fight. Morrigan was one of my main party members through
the game anyway so she was helpful in the fight and keeping the PC ‘in
game’ I felt it made sense for the PC to keep her around for as long as
possible, hoping to convince her to change her mind and not run off as
she promises after the Dark Ritual.

No matter what the PC does,
Morrigan leaves - it is unavoidable and the player has no control over
it. We must simply watch helplessly as she walks away.

Still, why
put a lot of work into building a relationship with Morrigan if it’s
known that it will ultimately end in heartbreak and disaster? Morrigan
insists on several occasions that the player will regret being close to
her in the end or regret leaving her in the end (foreshadowing that
Morrigan is integral to the plot irrespective of choices, and that no
matter what you do, it's going to 'hurt'). Both cases have regret and if
the player chooses Morrigan and Morrigan has a high level of affection
towards the PC, the Epilogue states that with Morrigan’s Ring, the
player senses when Morrigan thinks of him and feels her regret and
sorrow (assuming Morrigan strongly ‘loved’ the PC).

What we do
know of them is what we’re told by their characters and what we read in
the codex as myth and legend, so we never really do know what to
believe. Thus, we’ve got to experience it for ourselves. We only assume
that Morrigan and Flemmeth are human witches because they look like it,
but they’re both shape-shifters and their characters constantly point
out that things are not as they appear. Morrigan tells the PC that she
shape-shifts by living as the creature she’s taken form. If Flemmeth is
also a shapeshifter and shifts to a High Dragon, then it’s apparent
they’re part of the Dragon Cult (since they have to be among that to
which they shift).  She also tells the PC that she’s ventured from the
woods before and walked among people in the. Morrigan is the only
character to have unnaturally colored eyes, like that of a reptile and
the Dragon Cult codex explains that cult members who drink of the dragon
blood are sometimes affected physically. The codex also explains that
cult members turned to worship dragons because their Old Gods failed
them. The plot thickens and we can begin to see that Morrigan in terms
of the Dark Ritual may be more complex than what she’s telling us.
 
Players
are left unclear as to who was lying about whom (or if at all) between
the two - they could be in cahoots or they could be at odds. If players
embark on the quest to kill Flemmeth she explains that if allowed to
live she'll eventually find Morrigan and deal with her in an undisclosed
manner but that players can take the Grimoire. Maybe it’s a case of "A
teacher teaches a student everything the student knows, not everything
the teacher knows." If the players kill Flemmeth (who seemed to fully
expect the players to return and try to kill her and hints that it isn’t
the first time Morrigan has tried this), Morrigan expresses her
uncertainty that Flemmeth is really dead and that if she’s not, will
have to find some way to take care of it later.  It brings the idea that
Flemmeth is a lot more powerful than we know. The conversation with
Flemmeth indicates that the story of possession is something to motivate
the PC, but ultimately untrue. Morrigan also states that getting
pregnant is part of why Flemmeth sent her with the PC – and never talks
about anything other than what the Black Grimoire contained, not what
Flemmeth's Grimoire contained so, if Flemmeth is truly dead why continue
with Flemmeth’s order to conceive?

The only two logical reason I
can come up with is that Morrigan and Flemmeth are as I talked about
earlier, part of the Dragon Cult. The Dragon Cult codex explains about
their practices,a nd Morrigan says she wants to get the Old God soul
from the Archdemon and transfer it to the unborn child and teach  it the
good of things. I think that this is Morrigans way of doing exactly
what the Chantry is: working to get their God to come back their people
once more. The other reason is that Morrigan IS Flemmeth - if you go
through all dialogue options in the Dark Ritual conversation and have
taken on the killing of Flemmeth quest then you'll notice that Morrigan
says some of the exact phrases Flemmeth did in your conversation with
her. So, either Morrigan got possessed in studying the grimoire or
Flemmeth wasn't dead and possessed Morrigan. I mean really... the "Robes
of Possession" weren't all that hard to find, and if you don't kill
Flemmeth, she gives them to you to give Morrigan anyway.

WHY THE DARK RITUAL ENDING NEED NOT
DISAPPOINT:

Perhaps the greatest frustration
players felt with Morrigan stems from the consistent pattern of game
stories to give the game players explanations of other players’ motives.
Players have to accept that Morrigan is secretive and doesn’t owe the
player anything in her own mind. People are selfish, secretive, and
manipulative and that doesn’t always make them bad people. Morrigan was
all of these, but she was also someone that was worth saving because
despite her damaged persona, players could see tiny slivers good, and
tiny seeds of hope. The game however, presents the story in a way that
nothing is free and heroes make sacrifices, sometimes unwillingly.
Loghain was an integral character in context to this theme. He became
ultimately treasonous for the love of his country, left with a reckless
daydreaming King Cailan to defend against the impending Blight, having
suffered through betrayal and loss of his own past loves… Loghain forced
the idea of dealing with harsh reality in harsh ways that often
contradicted the altruistic nature often associated with heroes and
exemplified the phrase, “The road to hell is paved with good
intentions.” - Which means that you can plan on doing good, simply
wanting to do good doesn’t mean it’ll end up that way.

We come to
expect equal exchange between the characters. Leliana expresses her
concern for people openly and is revealed to possibly retell stores of
her vision to garner attention, no matter how negative; Allister
eventually tells us of his lineage, and why he keeps it secret (which
contrasts Morrigan's own secretive nature) and even Loghain has the
fortitude to tell the Landsmeet he felt his evils were just with and
objectively valid reasoning in context to his ultimate goal.

If
partying with Allister and Leliana in tow alongside Morrigan we can hear
the contrast of virtues between the three. Leliana and Morrigan debate
in much the same way an atheist and theist debate the existence God,
both with rational explanations for their belifs as they pertain to
their individual viewpoints. Allister and Morrigan often squabble over
morality from their individual standpoints, again with very valid
rationale. It sheds light on Morrigan's egocentric style brought about
by a life of isolation, prompting the PC to work to alter that and offer
a perspective from someone we assume she respects and hopefully trusts -
making the eventual 'betrayal' all that much more hurtful.

Ultimately
the PC runs from death, thus Morrigan runs from the PC. Something
gained and something lost, and it is important remember that Morrigan
states in the conversation about the conception of a child that if the
PC chooses to take the killing blow and not partake in the dark ritual
therefore sacrificing yourself, that she'd mourn for you. What do we
believe? We know she’s hiding something, we know she’s no issue with
lying and often seeks an end for personal gain or power… but she’s not
evil, just chaotic.

We can't simply assume that Morrigan will be
'ours' just because we made her happy or that she 'should' see that we
care thus so she should also. Simply being willing to be transparent
with someone is no reason to assume they'd be equally transparent,
especially with someone like Morrigan who, has depth based on what we
don't know as opposed to what we do know.  The most painful love is
unrequited love, yet it is one of the many facets of love that is very
real - if not the most real because it stabs us in the front and not the
back, and we have to deal with the anxiety of watching it all happen
without being able to control it. Perhaps the pain of it comes from the
idea that Morrigan is ultimately professed to be a friend and a lover,
and we'd rather be stabbed in the back, totally unaware, never having to
deal with watching the perceived betrayal unfold and that backstabbing
never has a good reason therefore no reason to search it out. Was she
wrong for being forthright and telling us to avoid her? No, at least she
cared enough to be honest and it now becomes our choice to be hurt in
the end. It challenged our own worldviews in the game and contrasts them
against the background experiences of the other characters with which
we interact. Morrigan is the prime example of this and the only
character that we can't just kill, abandon or force to leave. She's like
a fresco - unique and ornate but not without serious flaws that detract
from overall sense of total perfection. Her character is well written
and she's supposed to lead us on -that's her role, and she ultimately
does what we as players struggle to do through the entire game - deal
with the reality of the situations no matter who it hurts or why, even
if it also hurts herself. Layer this with overtones of emotions like
love and there needs to be less explanation because there is less reason
for explanation to be given.

When I got married my wife would
sometimes ask me "Why do you love me?" and at that time I could go on
for days explaining it, giving examples of reasons. Five and a half
years later there needs to be no reason other than I simply do - there
are still reasons, but they're nothing more than accessories to it and
not reasons for it. In this case, love becomes the strongest of
intangible emotions only equaled by hate. Spend enough time with it, and
it is just what it is. We've got to accept that from Morrigan as a
character and know that in the sequel there will be much more revealed
about her motives and whether or not she truly did love the PC or were
we just a tool for her own ends (and then consider that over time,
things change and she may realize that she did love us more than she
thought - you know, that whole distance makes the heart grow fonder
thing?). The point is, that Morrigan disappointed many people because
they either know someone like Morrigan or they, deep down inside, are
Morrigan. We long for people to work to open us up and we feel that if
they did then we'd go to them, like some fantasy romance novel yet we
know we wouldn't. Fear wells up and... we choke. We're comfortable in
that pain and loneliness because we've know it for so long. Conversely,
those people who we know who are like Morrigan we've taken time to learn
who they are... but not having been in a situation like in the game, we
can only assume that they'd reciprocate and 'love' us back. Anything
less is unfair, but love isn't fair. Someone always loses even if we
don't see it.

In summary, Morrigan represents everything we
dislike about ourselves and others. The shallow mental judgmental
narratives that underline the day to day conversations between people,
our lack of faith and values in ourselves, the short sighted self
involvement and over/under analytical propensity to see things that are
not there or never were to satiate our curiosity and quell the thirst
for knowledge and understanding, and our desire to give meaning to
things that have none or redirect off handed comments from others about
parts of our lives they’d never understand - all come to the single
character, Morrigan. Some players want her to go away but she won't
(well… you can kick her out, but she comes back), she's too important
and self exposing to be written off as a cheap feral floozy while others
move to embrace her in a futile attempt to change that which we have no
control. She's what we love to hate and hate to love about ourselves
and society. And yet one last possibility remains that the emotional
jolt Morrigan gives us is covered by the natural reaction of denial.
Perhaps Morrigan is a heartless shrew, and we choose to not admit it
given our emotional investments; that we played into her and Flemming's
hand - Morrigan may not have liked it, but like Loghain, dealing with
the reality of it takes precedence over the fantasy world our emotions
have created to shelter us.
 

SEQUEL
PREDICTION:
 

Given that the story generally
pushed to make the PC to live on (there are more choices to allow the PC
to live than die), and that the “Dark Ritual” ending is the most
developed and revealing I’m betting the following basic plotline will be
in Dragon Age 2.
 

The plotline of the second game would be
about Flemmeth, the Dragon Cult, and a possible showdown between members
of the Chantry and the Dragon Cultists. All of that while a political
battle between Ferelden and Orlain possibly igniting a minor war, The
Circle of the Magi, Blood Magic, the possible need to resurrect the
Anvil and the reuniting of both City and Dalish elves as a single
sovereign nation would be integral plotlines as well.


I think
if Flemmeth is alive then she would seek revenge on Morrigan and reveal
that ultimately the story of possessions are untrue in the fashion
they’re told. That, the name “Flemmeth” is used in conjunction with the
legend to better conceal and throw doubt as to the existence of the
Dragon Cult (though that could be a DLC quest and not part of the sequel
I suppose… discover the truth behind Flemmeth and afford yet another
possible ending).


Ultimately what I'd like to see is the
sequel take the work that the PC did to gain the approval and affection
from Morrigan get rewarded. Flemmeth’s (replacing Loghain in terms of
character purpose) return to corrupt the child would prompt Morrigan to
seek help from the PC, if even for selfish reasons, thus giving
opportunity to rekindle the lost relationship, but also put the two at
odds given that Morrigan was the one who walked out despite the protests
of the PC.  Morrigan would have to show bits of humanity and admit
wrongs and submit to the weakness that is love - and at what cost? The
answers would be in the sequel. This isn't to say that along the second
journey the PC couldn't have relationships with other men or women, but
the ultimate goal with Morrigan would be to get closure and continue the
relationship or move on. A nice touch would be placed in a situation
where you have to choose to kill her or defend her from death at the
hands of some of your companions (or convince them to also defend her)


I
think it would be neat if not perhaps too complicated in the mechanical
process to have the sequel look at the save game files of the first
game and allow the player to unlock main and plot dynamics based on
which of the endings players achieved. It may be too intricate for the
developers to worry about but Bioware is really good with complex
storytelling and plot lines, so who knows?...


CLOSING THOUGHTS:

Overall, the
game can be played out many different ways and has a few variations to
the ending, but the 'real' ending in my opinion is the Dark Ritual where
you're forced to suffer the loss, realize in time that your own
selfishness may end up causing a catastrophe thus proving part of
Morrigan's point about how love is a weakness to be avoided at all
costs. Dark, engaging, and thought provoking I think Bioware has set
themselves up for a short franchise that can be considered an instant
classic in the RPG area for multi-faceted characters, wealth of dynamic
outcomes with static plot underpinnings. Unfortunately, I feel that game
may be too deep for a lot of modern players and am somewhat afraid that
the sequel may end up having to get watered down to bring a lot of even
superficial questions to light. Leliana was a good character as were
all of them, and while I half expected Shale to mention 'meatbag' even
she was well done given her circumstances and background. It still
remains that Morrigan was the central character through every ending
thus, the subplot that carries into forming the core plot of the sequel.

 

Only three other games in the history of my gaming have
left me feeling the way I do about the story in context to how it's told
and where it takes us on an emotional level - Advent Rising, Final
Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy X (The Astyanax is in there somewhere,
but... that was a happy ending all around). Still I remain hopeful that
like Final Fantasy X-2, Dragon Age 2 will provide us will some multitude
of closure on the relationship between the PC and Morrigan while
retaining the mature emotional concepts and the things entailed with
them. Nevertheless, as the PC we've more or less asked for and walked
into the emotional trap set for us by the storytellers even though we
know it's coming - we feel we can at some point change it and make
things 'okay'. Bravo Bioware, bravo.




I read this back in Nov (just found it on a Goggle search) and I think it's a great asessment.  While it goes a long way in explaining the context of Morrigan and the DR, it just falls short for me in explaining away a really s#!++y ending to an 80 hour game.

At least the Ultimate Sacrifice agave me an epic ending.

This is a great piece for hopeful fans of the game though.

#959
Brockololly

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Now see, that just pisses me off.  WTF Gaider?  

I actually was beginning to give him the benefit of the doubt in light of the edited material in the toolset, until I read that. 

Since he sits back and actually enjoys frustrating players (not to mention the glitches in the romances that only compound the frustration and anger) it is becoming crystal clear that this is the accepted story telling model for future games.  Great idea, make a player invest significant time and energy into your game and then screw them over at the end to hook them.  Very speculative method for maintaining a franchise imo.  Since he seems to take such pleasure in torturing his players (and let's face it, it ain't that hard to build up a players expectations through a story and then strip them at the end), I don't see myself giving him the opportunity to do it to me again. 


Well, I wouldn't go so far in blaming the writers or Gaider. As far as the bugs in how the romances played out, the writers have no control over that sort of thing since they don't code it, its the programmers we should be upset with that flags don't get triggered or read properly.

But as for Gaider basking in the lament of scorned Morrigan fanboys and Alistair fangirls- I 'm quite sure he's said it somewhere else in the forums, but as a writer you want the people taking in your work to be "emotionally engaged," whether thats from the player laughing along with the characters or getting upset when one gets killed off. The fact that you got an emotional response of any kind is what the writer is hoping for- surely I was affected emotionally by Origins, but for instance  in Awakening- nope, I really wasn't ever "emotionally engaged."

So yeah, Gaider is being a bit facetious with his comments but he surely is pleased he got an emotional response out of all of us. But I agree with what you're saying- its really easy to get an emotional response out of someone when you build up a great character and then as the writer wave your magic pen and have them flee or go all tragic. Its like taking candy from a baby-  It works for sure to get an emotional response, but keep doing it and after a while it can get a bit tiresome when you see the writing on the wall again and again.

Honestly, Bioware could have gone a lot darker or tragic if they wanted to  ( and hell, maybe they will in DA2)- I can think of lots of other games, movies and books that are plenty tragic yet still great. And tragedy can be fantastic in a dark fantasy setting, but you've still got to have the "happy" moments too. I just hope that when all is said and done, its at least possible for a "happy" ending with Morrigan even if the Warden has got to go through Hell and back to get it- at least make it a possibility.

But the thing with an RPG, especially one like DAO which emphasizes player choice and agency, is that as a player you should be able to somehow avert or affect the impending tragedy rather than having your PC be forced to sit on the sidelines as they watch the tragedy plothammer being wielded by the writers. Thats how I feel about the Dark Ritual- you're never given a reason why the Warden can't come with Morrigan or try and convince her why you should come with her or really try to influence her in that scene. And on the other end of the spectrum there are people that hated Morrigan that wanted the choice to kill her in that scene- I think its just a case of the writers putting plot armor on Morrigan and quite blatantly setting her up for some future appearance.

#960
akrep77

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The quote from blog was magnificent. I learnt so many things. I never realized there is a dragon cult and Morrigan and Flemeth might have some connections to. Thanks for the post Master Shiori!

#961
Terra_Ex

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Brockololly wrote...

Honestly, Bioware could have gone a lot darker or tragic if they wanted to  ( and hell, maybe they will in DA2)- I can think of lots of other games, movies and books that are plenty tragic yet still great. And tragedy can be fantastic in a dark fantasy setting, but you've still got to have the "happy" moments too. I just hope that when all is said and done, its at least possible for a "happy" ending with Morrigan even if the Warden has got to go through Hell and back to get it- at least make it a possibility.

But the thing with an RPG, especially one like DAO which emphasizes player choice and agency, is that as a player you should be able to somehow avert or affect the impending tragedy rather than having your PC be forced to sit on the sidelines as they watch the tragedy plothammer being wielded by the writers.

Precisely - the journey is pointless if the ending can never be attained.

Brockololly wrote...
Thats how I feel about the Dark Ritual- you're never given a reason why the Warden can't come with Morrigan or try and convince her why you should come with her or really try to influence her in that scene. And on the other end of the spectrum there are people that hated Morrigan that wanted the choice to kill her in that scene- I think its just a case of the writers putting plot armor on Morrigan and quite blatantly setting her up for some future appearance.

This is why the entire DR just doesn't mesh together with the rest of the plot. Morrigan asks for assistance in protecting herself from Flemeth - she asks this of both male & female wardens. 

In her restored dialogue scenes she explains that she trustsed/cared for the warden if they let Flemeth live and is truly hurt by their betrayal (there are obviously numerous other instances where this is inferred in the vanilla game dialogue). Now, the ritual is a complete contradiction of this, if Morrigan trusts the warden enough to protect her from Flemeth, why would it ever be a good idea to dissuade said warden from accompanying her on whatever grand scheme she has to enact - especially when she herself has said that Flemeth will most likely return. The pieces simply do not fit together. As you've stated, its a plot hook to the future, sadly to the detriment of a romancing warden's ending.


Master Shiori wrote...

Just found the following blog entry
in another DA:O forum and thought it should be posted here as well.

It
offers a rather well thought out opinion on Morrigan, Flemeth, Dark
Ritual and possible speculation on how these things can continue in the
future games.

Recommended read for all Morrigan fans.

gameinformer.com/blogs/members/b/ejronin_blog1/archive/2009/11/15/dragon-age-origins-dark-ritual-not-disappointing-in-context-to-potential-sequal-plotline-an-opinion.aspx

Yeah, I read that a few months back - very thought provoking and a great breakdown of the Morrigan / Flemeth plot. I agree with most of what the writer says, their idea for this particular situation would be absolutely fantastic if it was executed correctly:

"A nice touch would be placed in a situation where you have to choose to
kill her or defend her from death at the hands of some of your
companions (or convince them to also defend her)."

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 19 avril 2010 - 11:18 .


#962
Barbarossa2010

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Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Now see, that just pisses me off.  WTF Gaider?  

I actually was beginning to give him the benefit of the doubt in light of the edited material in the toolset, until I read that. 

Since he sits back and actually enjoys frustrating players (not to mention the glitches in the romances that only compound the frustration and anger) it is becoming crystal clear that this is the accepted story telling model for future games.  Great idea, make a player invest significant time and energy into your game and then screw them over at the end to hook them.  Very speculative method for maintaining a franchise imo.  Since he seems to take such pleasure in torturing his players (and let's face it, it ain't that hard to build up a players expectations through a story and then strip them at the end), I don't see myself giving him the opportunity to do it to me again. 


Well, I wouldn't go so far in blaming the writers or Gaider. As far as the bugs in how the romances played out, the writers have no control over that sort of thing since they don't code it, its the programmers we should be upset with that flags don't get triggered or read properly.

But as for Gaider basking in the lament of scorned Morrigan fanboys and Alistair fangirls- I 'm quite sure he's said it somewhere else in the forums, but as a writer you want the people taking in your work to be "emotionally engaged," whether thats from the player laughing along with the characters or getting upset when one gets killed off. The fact that you got an emotional response of any kind is what the writer is hoping for- surely I was affected emotionally by Origins, but for instance  in Awakening- nope, I really wasn't ever "emotionally engaged."

So yeah, Gaider is being a bit facetious with his comments but he surely is pleased he got an emotional response out of all of us. But I agree with what you're saying- its really easy to get an emotional response out of someone when you build up a great character and then as the writer wave your magic pen and have them flee or go all tragic. Its like taking candy from a baby-  It works for sure to get an emotional response, but keep doing it and after a while it can get a bit tiresome when you see the writing on the wall again and again.

Honestly, Bioware could have gone a lot darker or tragic if they wanted to  ( and hell, maybe they will in DA2)- I can think of lots of other games, movies and books that are plenty tragic yet still great. And tragedy can be fantastic in a dark fantasy setting, but you've still got to have the "happy" moments too. I just hope that when all is said and done, its at least possible for a "happy" ending with Morrigan even if the Warden has got to go through Hell and back to get it- at least make it a possibility.

But the thing with an RPG, especially one like DAO which emphasizes player choice and agency, is that as a player you should be able to somehow avert or affect the impending tragedy rather than having your PC be forced to sit on the sidelines as they watch the tragedy plothammer being wielded by the writers. Thats how I feel about the Dark Ritual- you're never given a reason why the Warden can't come with Morrigan or try and convince her why you should come with her or really try to influence her in that scene. And on the other end of the spectrum there are people that hated Morrigan that wanted the choice to kill her in that scene- I think its just a case of the writers putting plot armor on Morrigan and quite blatantly setting her up for some future appearance.


"Plot armor": good one.  I see Gaider, or who ever is truly responsible for the DR unfolding as it did, as puting forth a veneer of being facetious, but actually relishing the player's torment nonetheless.  As you said, they are writers and writers don't survive if they can't emotionally engage you in their story.  I still say they screwed it up.  That was just no way to end a very long game (btw, have you ever taken 80 hours to complete any game campaign, because I haven't?) and so over the top with her unrealistic silence, all to hook a sequel, that I'm just not willing to give much benefit of the doubt.

#963
RogueWriter3201

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[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...

[quote]glenboy24 wrote...

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]akrep77 wrote...

*snip*

[/quote]

*snip* 

[/quote]

That's not the scene we are talking about. After the scene at the Denerim gates where you speak to all your party members in turn and at any point before reaching the Archdemon, you can manually engage her in conversation. Once and once only you will get the option to say "I want to talk about last night."
It is this dialog path that sets the STILL_IN_LOVE flag and unsets MORRIGAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE. STILL_IN_LOVE is a requirement for the Origins "Morrigan's Ring" epilogue slide, which imo is an oversight. Logically, you should still get that epilogue scene irrespective of whether you you speak to her or not.

Sadly, speaking to her here will lock you out of the Awakening "search for dark harided sorceress" epilogue slide because that is dependent on MORRIGAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE being set to true. Hence, the one or the other scenario we have. Its undoubtedly an oversight or case of the coders "forgetting" the possible outcomes at the end of the game.

The only other way to get both epilogues is by using the Mirror in a post game save, which sets the MORRIGAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE flag to true, which is the flag that Awakening seems to check upon import. So long as you use the Mirror in the post game, you're fine since you already got the epilogue slide by talking to her at the end of the game. 

It's utterly stupid, there was no need to force the STILL_IN_LOVE flag at the end of Origins, and the coders have simply created another mess of their own making in doing so.

Hope this clarifies it for you.
[/quote]


Whew! Actually, yes it does. Thanks, Terra. You Rule.

I did have one *extra* Question though...sorry. Okay, so you *can* get both the Morrigan slides if you talk with her after the Denerim Companions moment, but doing so requires you to load the Epilogue Save and then give Morrigan the Mirror there in the party camp. My question is: Do you then have to save *over* the Epilogue file, and will doing so change anything from your main-game?
Posted Image

Modifié par glenboy24, 20 avril 2010 - 01:13 .


#964
Brockololly

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Terra_Ex wrote...
This is why the entire DR just doesn't mesh together with the rest of the plot. Morrigan asks for assistance in protecting herself from Flemeth - she asks this of both male & female wardens. 

In her restored dialogue scenes she explains that she trustsed/cared for the warden if they let Flemeth live and is truly hurt by their betrayal (there are obviously numerous other instances where this is inferred in the vanilla game dialogue). Now, the ritual is a complete contradiction of this, if Morrigan trusts the warden enough to protect her from Flemeth, why would it ever be a good idea to dissuade said warden from accompanying her on whatever grand scheme she has to enact - especially when she herself has said that Flemeth will most likely return. The pieces simply do not fit together. As you've stated, its a plot hook to the future, sadly to the detriment of a romancing warden's ending.


Yeah, I know part of what makes Morrigan an interesting character is her mysterious nature but in the Dark Ritual scene iit just felt too obvious that Bioware was holding back details so as to not spoil their future plans. Tahts what it seemed like to me anyway.

Most of the time, I think the writers in Bioware games do an excellent job in coming up with dialogue choices for the PC  that I would actually want to use if I was in that situation and flow logically in the given conversation. The big exception is the dark Ritual scene where especially as the romancing Warden, you can't ask the most basic question of all to Morrigan- "Why?" Why does she feel compelled to run away? Why can't the Warden come along to protect her as (like you mentioned Terra_Ex) the Warden has already protected her from Flemeth? Why can't the Warden ever see the Old God Baby? Why is Morrigan suddenly so duty oriented and invoking destiny and fate when before she was seemingly Ms. Independent? I could go on, but you get the point.

The fact that you can't really get answers to any of those questions is very frustrating given that as of now we aren't sure that the Warden will ever meet back up with Morrigan. Sure you can say thats part of why Morrigan's romance is bittersweet or tragic or whatever you'd like to call it. But if the Warden's story ends like that, I'd lose faith in Bioware. On the flip side, maybe Gaider and the writers are all set to answer those questions and all of our complaining will be a moot point in DA2. Whatever the case may be, as it stands now the Dark Ritual and Morrigan's attitude towards the romancing Warden in that scene is a weak point in the story when it should be a really strong, memorable moment. What could have been a really emotionally engaging scene ends up more like a "WTF?" moment- and I don't think thats what Gaider and the writers were aiming for.

#965
Brockololly

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

That was just no way to end a very long game (btw, have you ever taken 80 hours to complete any game campaign, because I haven't?) and so over the top with her unrealistic silence, all to hook a sequel, that I'm just not willing to give much benefit of the doubt.


Heh- you haven't played Baldur's Gate 2 have you? Dragon Age is short compared to BG2- BG2 was my 1st RPG I ever played and while its been a very long time since I played it, trying to do a full, not skip anything sort of playthrough took me  at least 150+ hours and that might be a conservative estimate. While my 1st DAO playthrough was about 80 hours I think.

As an aside, I'd highly recommend playing BG2 if you want to play an RPG with an awesome story, even though the graphics might not be too hot now, its still a fantastic game.

But I will say this- if you do get a chance to play BG2 and you were frustrated with Morrigan leaving after 80 hours of DA, then you surely don't want to romance Viconia in BG2.  The character  of Viconia was also written by Gaider and really is like Morrigan's more evil sister- she is obsessed with power, views love as a weakness and in the end of the game, breaks up with your PC and runs away. I guess if you're looking at Viconia as a bit of foreshadowing to Morrigan, then Viconia does show back up and you can romance her again in Throne of Bhaal, and the PC and Viconia can live happily ever after and have a kid in the epilogue to Throne of Bhaal......that is until she gets poisoned and dies, all in the epilogue slide- vintage Gaider, I might say. 

#966
Barbarossa2010

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Terra_Ex wrote...

This is why the entire DR just doesn't mesh together with the rest of the plot. Morrigan asks for assistance in protecting herself from Flemeth - she asks this of both male & female wardens. 

In her restored dialogue scenes she explains that she trustsed/cared for the warden if they let Flemeth live and is truly hurt by their betrayal (there are obviously numerous other instances where this is inferred in the vanilla game dialogue). Now, the ritual is a complete contradiction of this, if Morrigan trusts the warden enough to protect her from Flemeth, why would it ever be a good idea to dissuade said warden from accompanying her on whatever grand scheme she has to enact - especially when she herself has said that Flemeth will most likely return. The pieces simply do not fit together. As you've stated, its a plot hook to the future, sadly to the detriment of a romancing warden's ending.


You are absolutely correct.  I have argued for months that my real issue with the game was that my Warden was forced so violently out of character at the DR, but I never emphasized enough that Morrigan was also.  For her to ask the Warden to kill her mother and trust in him exclusively to do so then suddenly clam up and 'have to disappear,' because she all of the sudden couldn't trust him with the great 'knowledge' of her 'mission,' that was...well...really stupid and disconnected from the reality of everything that had happened.

My first thought at the DR, after the WTF outrage of course, was that she had become a threat and that I was going to have to slay her; then afte a bunch of mumbo-jumbo...nothing, just chump time or sacrifice your Warden.  Just two sh!++y choices.  The most unrealistic part of the DR was that Morrigan was asking a Grey Warden, with no details whatsoever and no ability to extract the information, to attract the 'essence' of the very thing he was sworn to destroy.  Totally contrived.  But hey, what do I know?

You what's funny, I was just reading the ME2 forum and those guys are over there arguing science of quarian xenobiology and why it's unrealistic after 300 years that they would have to wear environment suits; it's actually pretty cool stuff.  We're over here banging our head against a wall of literary ambiguity and stupidly contrived plot hooks.

Oh well, done for the night.  Going off to do Grunt's loyalty mission and may do Samara's loyalty mission later and meet Morinth. 

Take care.

#967
Barbarossa2010

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Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

That was just no way to end a very long game (btw, have you ever taken 80 hours to complete any game campaign, because I haven't?) and so over the top with her unrealistic silence, all to hook a sequel, that I'm just not willing to give much benefit of the doubt.


Heh- you haven't played Baldur's Gate 2 have you? Dragon Age is short compared to BG2- BG2 was my 1st RPG I ever played and while its been a very long time since I played it, trying to do a full, not skip anything sort of playthrough took me  at least 150+ hours and that might be a conservative estimate. While my 1st DAO playthrough was about 80 hours I think.

As an aside, I'd highly recommend playing BG2 if you want to play an RPG with an awesome story, even though the graphics might not be too hot now, its still a fantastic game.

But I will say this- if you do get a chance to play BG2 and you were frustrated with Morrigan leaving after 80 hours of DA, then you surely don't want to romance Viconia in BG2.  The character  of Viconia was also written by Gaider and really is like Morrigan's more evil sister- she is obsessed with power, views love as a weakness and in the end of the game, breaks up with your PC and runs away. I guess if you're looking at Viconia as a bit of foreshadowing to Morrigan, then Viconia does show back up and you can romance her again in Throne of Bhaal, and the PC and Viconia can live happily ever after and have a kid in the epilogue to Throne of Bhaal......that is until she gets poisoned and dies, all in the epilogue slide- vintage Gaider, I might say. 


Was about to sign off and then read this.

Brock, you're friggin killing me with this s#!+.  Just a thrill a minute with this stuff, huh?. 

BTW, I picked up the original XBOX versions of BG 1 and 2 at a local used game store, but haven't played them yet.  Are they the same as the PC versions?

#968
Terra_Ex

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Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...


That was just no way to end a very long game (btw, have you ever taken
80 hours to complete any game campaign, because I haven't?) and so over
the top with her unrealistic silence, all to hook a sequel, that I'm
just not willing to give much benefit of the doubt.


Heh-
you haven't played Baldur's Gate 2 have you? Dragon Age is short
compared to BG2- BG2 was my 1st RPG I ever played and while its been a
very long time since I played it, trying to do a full, not skip anything
sort of playthrough took me  at least 150+ hours and that might be a
conservative estimate. While my 1st DAO playthrough was about 80 hours I
think.

As an aside, I'd highly recommend playing BG2 if you
want to play an RPG with an awesome story, even though the graphics
might not be too hot now, its still a fantastic game.

But I will
say this- if you do get a chance to play BG2 and you were frustrated
with Morrigan leaving after 80 hours of DA, then you surely don't want
to romance Viconia in BG2.  The character  of Viconia was also written
by Gaider and really is like Morrigan's more evil sister- she is
obsessed with power, views love as a weakness and in the end of the
game, breaks up with your PC and runs away. I guess if you're looking at
Viconia as a bit of foreshadowing to Morrigan, then Viconia does show
back up and you can romance her again in Throne of Bhaal, and the PC and
Viconia can live happily ever after and have a kid in the epilogue to
Throne of Bhaal......that is until she gets poisoned and dies, all in
the epilogue slide- vintage Gaider, I might say. 

Ah yes, I remember that particular epilogue, after so much toiling through that merry dance, you still end up getting the Gaider treatment :) Funny how history repeats itself. I'd say you got off easy with Morrrigan, Barbarossa :)


Barbarossa2010 wrote...
BTW, I picked up the original XBOX versions of BG 1 and 2 at a local used game store, but haven't played them yet.  Are they the same as the PC versions?


No, totally different games, not even in the same league as the PC epics.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 20 avril 2010 - 01:00 .


#969
Brockololly

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Barbarossa2010 wrote..

Was about to sign off and then read this.

Brock, you're friggin killing me with this s#!+.  Just a thrill a minute with this stuff, huh?. 

BTW, I picked up the original XBOX versions of BG 1 and 2 at a local used game store, but haven't played them yet.  Are they the same as the PC versions?


Haha.. I do my best.

Yeah - the BG games on the console are completely different, not even related to the PC ones.

As a bit of speculation, thinking back to the the plot of BG2- basically its one big chase after Irenicus. Might be kind of cool to have DA2 be one big chase after Morrigan- doubt that would happen and I'd like Morrigan to be back as a party member but it would be nice to see a Bioware game that goes beyond the typical, go to location A to recruit companion Z or army X, rinse and repeat several times.

I think thats one of my issues with Awakening and to a certain extent Origins and ME2- in too many recent Bioware games, the whole "assemble your team" aspect seems like the whole game, so inevitably the last couple companions you pick up get the short end of the stick character development wise. In ME2 it happens although to be fair assembling your team is the whole point of ME2. It would be nice to see if in DA2 you can get most of your crew before setting out in the main chunk of the game, kind of like ME1.

#970
Terra_Ex

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Brockololly wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote..

Was about to sign off and then read this.

Brock, you're friggin killing me with this s#!+.  Just a thrill a minute with this stuff, huh?. 

BTW, I picked up the original XBOX versions of BG 1 and 2 at a local used game store, but haven't played them yet.  Are they the same as the PC versions?


Haha.. I do my best.

Yeah - the BG games on the console are completely different, not even related to the PC ones.

As a bit of speculation, thinking back to the the plot of BG2- basically its one big chase after Irenicus. Might be kind of cool to have DA2 be one big chase after Morrigan- doubt that would happen and I'd like Morrigan to be back as a party member but it would be nice to see a Bioware game that goes beyond the typical, go to location A to recruit companion Z or army X, rinse and repeat several times.

I think thats one of my issues with Awakening and to a certain extent Origins and ME2- in too many recent Bioware games, the whole "assemble your team" aspect seems like the whole game, so inevitably the last couple companions you pick up get the short end of the stick character development wise. In ME2 it happens although to be fair assembling your team is the whole point of ME2. It would be nice to see if in DA2 you can get most of your crew before setting out in the main chunk of the game, kind of like ME1.


Indeed, yet ironically, if you hadn't lost your ME1 team via plot device, ME2 wouldn't have much of a plot at all. In DA:O unmodded I usually find Zevran gets somewhat ignored in my playthroughs as he only shows up after you complete one of the major treaty objectives (by which time I've already got a preferred team assembled) and I just seem to have a natural disposition to somewhat ignore characters that appear later in the game. If DA2 were to be a chase after Morrigan, just imagine what fiendish trap Gaider will set for us at the end :?.

#971
Brockololly

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Terra_Ex wrote...

Indeed, yet ironically, if you hadn't lost your ME1 team via plot device, ME2 wouldn't have much of a plot at all. In DA:O unmodded I usually find Zevran gets somewhat ignored in my playthroughs as he only shows up after you complete one of the major treaty objectives (by which time I've already got a preferred team assembled) and I just seem to have a natural disposition to somewhat ignore characters that appear later in the game. If DA2 were to be a chase after Morrigan, just imagine what fiendish trap Gaider will set for us at the end :?.


Some more diverse plots are at least one thing I'm looking forward to in future DA games. I think it would be pretty cool to have the Warden go on a big search for Morrigan, make it sort of a mystery having the Warden need to hunt for clues, do a littlle detective work for maybe a quarter of the game and then meet up with Morrigan and go from there. No idea if that would happen, but I'd hope that DA2 has a good villain- Irenicus is an awesome villain in BG2  (in part because David Warner has a badass voice) and while the Architect was a step in the right direction in Awakening, he just didn't get enough screen time or have a close link to the Warden.... yeah as I typed that I realized they could make Morrigan the villain in DA2, but well I think that would be beyond cliche- it would probably fit into the Bioware cliche chart somewhere: http://gza.gameriot...._1257581825.png  

#972
Terra_Ex

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That is an amazing chart Brock :) I could certainly think up a few more rows to add it. Definitely agree with you on the subject of Irenicus - superb villain and fantastic VA work. Quite enjoyed the trouble his sister Bodhi caused as well, though those vampires were always a pain with the level draining... Plus the way Sarevok reappeared for TOB was an unexpected and welcome surprise... ah, the memories :) DA doesn't have a definitive villain yet, but I dunno, that may be one of its strengths. I would have hoped that the notion of "lets use a giant mutated creature for the last boss - that's original" would've died off by now.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 20 avril 2010 - 03:07 .


#973
Brockololly

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I can't remember, but I think one of the writers on the old ME forums got upset when someone posted that chart- Some of the things are a bit of a stretch on that chart but its amusing. Ultimately when you get down to it, most stories have already been told in one way shape or form throughout time, its really how you tell it  and try to put your own spin on it that matters.

Yeah one of the issues I had with Origins was that there really wasn't a villain in the traditional sense. You had Loghain who was more of a sympathetic villain and the you had the Blight and Archdemon which were really just sort of your typical faceless Zerg/Force of nature type enemy. I guess the closest thing to a really despicable villain was Howe, especially if you're a Cousland. I was hoping the Architect might give the darkspawn a bit more personality as villains, and to an extent he did, but the fact that you can kill him off kind of limits the chances we'll see him in the future I'd think. Which is too bad cause I thought he was more interesting in The Calling, but oh well.

All this talk of BG2 makes want to try and find it and load it up for the 1st time in years. Interestingly enough, as similar as Viconia and Morrigan may be I never ended up romancing Viconia in BG2, I went with Jaheira, who all told I thought had a pretty damn good romance. Although if you think Morrigan's romance is buggy, Jaheira's is just in a whole other league...

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 avril 2010 - 04:45 .


#974
UpiH

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Brockololly wrote...
All this talk of BG2 makes want to try and find it and load it up for the 1st time in years. Interestingly enough, as similar as Viconia and Morrigan may be I never ended up romancing Viconia in BG2, I went with Jaheira, who all told I thought had a pretty damn good romance. Although if you think Morrigan's romance is buggy, Jaheira's is just in a whole other league...


Yup, probably the most "balanced" feel in it. I found it somewhat distracting, Melissan had the same voice actor as Jaheira.

Those bugs have been addressed by the community, there are pretty throughout fixpacks around.

Do try Viconia, for a change. I found her character's progression somewhat more rewarding than Jaheira's. Besides, who could resist the Voice of Grey DeLisle?

#975
Brockololly

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UpiH wrote..

Yup, probably the most "balanced" feel in it. I found it somewhat distracting, Melissan had the same voice actor as Jaheira.

Those bugs have been addressed by the community, there are pretty throughout fixpacks around.

Do try Viconia, for a change. I found her character's progression somewhat more rewarding than Jaheira's. Besides, who could resist the Voice of Grey DeLisle?


Really? I 'm usually pretty good at picking out voice actors, I guess I never realized jaheira and melissan had the same VA.

I still have memories to this day of trying to get Jaheira's romance triggers to fire and having to go into the console  and enter in "lovetalk" endlessly....

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 avril 2010 - 06:09 .