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[Terra_Ex]

Ah, it's just like the old days, Brock, worrying over the future in a series of epic posts We need to get the old gang back together. Uber-post time, later we will need some more Morri pics to break up these "serious business" moments.

Brockololly wrote...
... a mini rant on VO

There are many strengths to a silent protagonist and it particularly suits players who actually immerse themselves in the game world. Many players don't, instead playing from a detached perspective and thus a more "cinematic" experience suits them. The former requires a modicum of imagination and perhaps a little patience but the payoff is worth it, the latter requires nothing and is the common denominator. I'll leave it there for now lest we tread into non-Morri waters.

Brockololly wrote...

I wouldn't mind if Morrigan and the Warden both died, but anytime you're doing something big like that, you've got to be sure to give those sort of big moments the care and attention to detail they deserve and not relegate it to an epilogue or codex. Any tragic end for Morrigan or the Warden would need to be meaningful and not just "Oh, the Warden died in Mirror World. Deal with it." 

I'd like to think they have a little more respect for the player character than pulling a mirror world codex death, I don't have any numbers but I'm betting (once its bugfixed) a serious chunk of the player base will have an investment and expectation in Witch Hunt's endings. "Deal with it" is pretty much the logic of the DA2 board on the majority of issues, so I don't have a great deal of respect for that particular brand of handwaving. It's like if the warden was just left endlessly searching -  that'd be
pathetic (and for a time, that was our primary fear in this thread) likewise a codex entry stating he was never seen again after
stepping through the mirror.

Codex & epilogue slides are intrinsic gotcha's; you had them with your choices in DA:O, but for things like romance endings for plot-centric characters it's just wasting everything the player has worked for with a few keystrokes. Like I touched upon earlier, I and by extension my warden would much rather go out with a bang alongside Morrigan than prance about in court in Ferelden waiting for the inevitable calling, but that's just me, just as others may find meaning & closure in the aforementioned endings, those who romanced Morrigan seek final closure alongside her in whatever plot she's embroiled in. Her larger plot arc, how the romance feels like it belongs alonside the main plot and how it all ties in with Flemeth represents a far more interesting game experience than any of the other outcomes on offer and it's appropriate to follow through accordingly for players who went with that option.

Brockololly wrote...
I honestly am expecting a bad end for Morrigan and the Warden though sadly. Going waaay back into the archives, you've got this quote from Gaider on Viconia's romance ending:

David Gaider wrote...

Thread: Character Creation  [+8]

Date: Thursday, 29 June 2006 09:24PM 

Quote: Posted 06/29/06 19:48:06 (GMT) by Melirinda
I understand that. I do want to be more certain of what a character  actually did -evil or good- I sort of want to see consequences to it,  witnesses, another person's account, some sort of "real thing". As we  all are more inclined to believe in "goodness" of the characters that  accompany us, especially if we like them, I am obviously bias for seeing the "evil" deeds commited, accounted for or having no-nosense  consequences.

I have no issues with consequences for evil deeds -- karma's a ***. Indeed, I  always thought it was a little amusing the way some folks freaked out at the idea of Viconia meeting a tragic end in the epilogue. To me, there  was never any other possible result for the Viconia romance. She even  tells you so.

But not every evil deed requires equal consequence, either. Not only would that be unrealistic, doing that would also be  very preachy, especially when you're supposed to be allowing  Evil-aligned characters in a game and not throwing Cosmic Justice at  them and/or the only Evil party members that they can recruit. Which  means that for a novel, BG2 makes for a great game -- and that's the way it has to be.

I could also make a comment about the differences in plot-centric and character-centric approaches, but I'm sure you get  the point.

That little comment about how Viconia even told you things wouldn't work out is eerily similar to Morrigan's romance. First you had Gaider mentioning after DAO came out  that in Origins Morrigan basically says things won't work out early on and lo and behold! Things didn't work out as Morrigan leaves you no matter what.

The counterpoint of course is that if the "Gaider's girl" is always destined for the chopping block by a game/series end via Gaider signposting the "inevitable outcome" from the off, then players will become disinclined to take that course as it's an unwinnable game, regardless of the journey one might undertake. 

On the other hand, if DA is all about choice it'd be a nice (and fitting) change if the bad (or misunderstood) girl actually did get a chance at a nice ending, but the player really had to work for it, even over the course of several games. With DA touted as "no set canon" and history playing out differently, maybe Gaider has revised his "never any other possible result" line of thinking for Morrigan (and DA in general) otherwise it's just Plot Hammer>agency. I'd certainly like to think this is the case and in keeping with the overall theme of DA, we shall see...

Brockololly wrote...
Think of how she says in Witch Hunt when you ask to come into the mirror that "You... cannot know what you ask. Twould be better if you stayed. For you, for us both." If we're to go by Gaider logic, that seems like sufficient warning for a potential future GOTCHA moment of writing off the Warden in Mirror World or something. Even with Witch Hunt's relatively "happy" ending for Morrigan and the Warden I just get the feeling that its only temporary- that the writiing is on the wall with Morrigan that there is WAAAAY more going on than she is letting us in on. And that possibly whenever that stuff comes to the surface, maybe Morrigan gets in over her head or something worthy of getting Gaider'd shall befall us Morrigan romancing Wardens.

You've got it spot on Brock. For all those heralding or whining about how the Morrigan romancers got a "happy" ending, I'm thinking... REALLY? Did you conveniently ignore the undertones of said conversation? Clearly they've never been Gaider'd before.

While I can certainly picture mirror world being a convenient gotcha,  I can also see it (and the other in WH endings) being used as a method to bring the warden back. Gaider said that BW don't like leaving dangling plot threads and WH served to strengthen that thread, crucially it did not end or cut that thread. If anything, I'm pleased that WH kept all wardens involved to varying degrees, certainly giving them all a valid reason to come back into play in the future.

soundchaser721 wrote...
I really just can't see the warden
stepping out of that mirror world with morrigan. As much as I want to
trust bioware completely to handle morrigan and the warden, I don't. I
would rather have witch hunt end on a more somber note than be gaider'd a
few years down the line when morrigan steps out of that mirror with the
OGB and the warden's nowhere to be found. It just seemed a little too
convenient to me that morrigan allowed the warden to go with her; it was
almost as if gaider wrote that option just to give us closure and never
really extrapolate on the idea of the warden returning with morrigan.
Ugh if we get gaider'd somewhere down the road whether it be in DA2 or 3
I'm gonna scream gaider's name just like kirk did in the wrath of
khan... except my voice will actually carry into outer space.

Well, the problem with that I suppose is this: I believe one of the devs stated (maybe Laidlaw?) that Morri has a large role to play in an upcoming game, whether that title is Morrigan/Flemeth centric, I don't know. This means at least in part, one of your selling points is the return of a much loved character, which players connected with via their Origins warden. If they handwave that relationship then, well it's a recipe for disaster imo. The Witch Hunt flags give some hope imo, as do Gaider's hints that we may see the Warden again. To me, to bring Morrigan back without catering to those who retained their Origins Warden (presumably a greater portion of those who completed the game) would be foolish. Flags like "Morrigan_Stabbed" have little relevence if the warden is not present. What happens in "Morrigan's game" has the potential to completely devalue or reinforce and build upon the player's choices in Origins and Witch Hunt, if the former I'd expect the fans will be out in force to voice their displeasure, if the latter then BioWare will have crafted a fantastic arc that spans multiple games and balance will be restored. For now, I'm inclined to believe that the Warden will probably return in some fashion and also whatever gift morri left will also tie other wardens into that plot arc, not as the protagonist though.

Zaros wrote...
All romances got a good resolution, Morrigan's just happened to be the most elaborate, and the only one that I still have a few questions about afterwards.

I agree, Morrigan's just happens to have the most interplay with the main plotline and pertinence to the ongoing DA saga, a situation some misconstrue as "special treatment". It's not something that morri fans should have to apologise for, she simply has more plot relevance moving forwards, those who romanced her may have recognised & invested in that and would like to continue that arc insofar as possible.

Master Shiori wrote...

As for Morrigan's future, I cannot honestly say that we're bound to get Gaidered again. Sure, it could turn out badly for Morri and the Warden, but it could also end on a relatively happy note. Morrigan told you it wouldn't be wise to follow her way back in Origins, yet that didn't result in a disaster in WH.

It's clear that whatever she's doing is very dangerous and her suvival and success aren't guaranteed, but I don't believe it means she's bound to die or meet some other bad end by default. And no, I don't expect to see the Warden reappear with Morrigan in DA3, unless Bioware brings him back as the main protagonist.

Right now so much about Morrigan's plans is unknown that I cannot predict how things will play out. At this point anything is possible and I'll just hope for the best. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

I find that interesting Shiori, lets say that DA3 focuses on Morrigan (and lets also say that it's her final role in the
DA franchise) would you not find the non-presence of the warden, despite your choices in DA:O and WH to be somewhat disappointing. If the warden was given no screentime surely then the only possible final resolution/happy ending could be given via epilogue slide which would certainly lack the emotional connection bringing back the warden would provide (even if he/she isn't the protagonist.) Such an ending to MorrixWarden & OGB would feel like an afterthought to me.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 19 septembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Bruddajakka]

Morrigan: Either kill her, let her go, or follow her into wherever the hell the portal leads (I'd call this a happy ending, but considering  the multitude of horrors you unleash along the way, along with the fact that Morrigan implies you along with the rest of your family will now be in grave danger, I'm not too sure anymore)

Which doesn't mean that she, and the Warden can't have a reasonable happy life together. Honestly got the impression from the way they act near the end of Witch Hunt that as long as the two of them are together come hell or high water they'll be happy. I mean maybe some **** will happen but they'll get through it together.

[Zaros]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Morrigan: Either kill her, let her go, or follow her into wherever the hell the portal leads (I'd call this a happy ending, but considering  the multitude of horrors you unleash along the way, along with the fact that Morrigan implies you along with the rest of your family will now be in grave danger, I'm not too sure anymore)

Which doesn't mean that she, and the Warden can't have a reasonable happy life together. Honestly got the impression from the way they act near the end of Witch Hunt that as long as the two of them are together come hell or high water they'll be happy. I mean maybe some **** will happen but they'll get through it together.

I'd like to believe that too, but if Golems of Amgarrak was any indication, things are about to take a really dark turn for everyone.

Modifié par Zaros, 19 septembre 2010 - 01:03 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Terra_Ex wrote...

I find that interesting Shiori, lets say that DA3 focuses on Morrigan (and lets also say that it's her final role in the
DA franchise) would you not find the non-presence of the warden, despite your choices in DA:O and WH to be somewhat disappointing. If the warden was given no screentime surely then the only possible final resolution/happy ending could be given via epilogue slide which would certainly lack the emotional connection bringing back the warden would provide (even if he/she isn't the protagonist.) Such an ending to MorrixWarden & OGB would feel like an afterthought to me.

Sounds like Awakening kinda. The whole time not a mention about the relationship to or from the Warden until the post-game powerpoint.

The only problem I could picture with the Warden getting any visual screentime would be appearance, since there are things like mods to take into account, especially if DA3 is to run on a different engine (I know, there's the whole armor and helmet workaround). Audio screentime is obviously another matter. I kinda get the feeling that people will be talking about the Hero of Ferelden periodically even in DA2.

However, if you're going to see both Morrigan AND the OGB, then a missing Warden is just going to be a problematic and glaring gap, especially for the veteran fans.

[GardenSnake]

Late to the 400 page party, damn. Oh well, congrats everyone, Morri would be proud.



Ya, the whole ending of Witch Hunt kind of backed Bioware into a continuity corner in terms of bringing Morrigan back. Escpecially for Wardens that romanced her. Heck, if this increases the likelihood that we'll see them again (Warden and Morri) I'm not complaining at all.

[Brockololly]

Terra_Ex wrote...
Ah, it's just like the old days, Brock, worrying over the future in a series of epic posts We need to get the old gang back together. Uber-post time, later we will need some more Morri pics to break up these "serious business" moments.

Ha- we're serious business in the Morrigan thread

Terra_Ex wrote...
 It's like if the warden was just left endlessly searching -  that'd be  pathetic (and for a time, that was our primary fear in this thread) likewise a codex entry stating he was never seen again after stepping through the mirror.

Very true. To me, whenever and however Morrigan or the Old God Baby show back up, in my game where the Warden went through the Eluvian with Morrigan, he's just as much a player in her plans now as anyone. So to have just Morrigan or just the OGB show up and not the Warden would pretty much negate the nice ending we had in Witch Hunt. Even if its not unceremoniously killing off the Warden to free up MOrrigan, if its just pulling an Awakening with the LI notes, I'd view that as equally a cop out.

Morrigan says in Witch Hunt: " Then come my love. We will face the future together." So yeah, maybe I'm just being myopic, but I expect that should we see Morrigan in the future, my Warden should be right there with her and OGB facing that future TOGETHER.

Terra_Ex wrote...
Like I touched upon earlier, I and by extension my warden would much rather go out with a bang alongside Morrigan than prance about in court in Ferelden waiting for the inevitable calling, but that's just me, just as others may find meaning & closure in the aforementioned endings, those who romanced Morrigan seek final closure alongside her in whatever plot she's embroiled in.

Precisely- if Morrigan's plot has been predetermined to end in her dying or in tragedy or however BioWare may have it outlined to end, at this juncture I expect the Warden to be right alongside her. Thats the expectation I'm harboring given how Witch Hunt ended. So I'd be greatly disappointed if they conclude Morrigan's story somehow with the Warden just sitting on the sideline or otherwise MIA.

Terra_Ex wrote...
Her larger plot arc, how the romance feels like it belongs alonside the main plot and how it all ties in with Flemeth represents a far more interesting game experience than any of the other outcomes on offer and it's appropriate to follow through accordingly for players who went with that option.

If DA is all about catering to each player's canon, then just as much I'd expect Queen COuslands to have a role if King Alistair became a plot point, I expect the Warden who romanced Morrigan to stay in the picture given anything involving Morrigan. Especially given the prospect that the Warden is a father too- thats some awesome story potential there, IMO.

Terra_Ex wrote...

On the other hand, if DA is all about choice it'd be a nice (and fitting) change if the bad (or misunderstood) girl actually did get a chance at a nice ending, but the player really had to work for it, even over the course of several games.

The thing I loved about BG2's romances like Jaheira or Viconia is that by the time you got to the end of Throne of Bhaal, it really felt like your PC had gone through Hell and highwater with your LI. You had Jaheira's curse and the Harper stuff, Viconia dealing with the Drow and then Bodhi turning your LI into a vampire and you having to bring them back to life, among other stuff. So yeah, I'm fine with putting the PC and characters through the wringer and making them earn a "happy" ending, as a matter of fact I prefer it that way as it makes the eventual ending with the LI that much more satisfying having gone down through the lows to get to the highs. 

Terra_Ex wrote...
While I can certainly picture mirror world being a convenient gotcha,  I can also see it (and the other in WH endings) being used as a method to bring the warden back. Gaider said that BW don't like leaving dangling plot threads and WH served to strengthen that thread, crucially it did not end or cut that thread. If anything, I'm pleased that WH kept all wardens involved to varying degrees, certainly giving them all a valid reason to come back into play in the future.

Thats very true about Witch Hunt- even if you're an Orlesian with no prior history with Morrigan, at the very least now the Orlesian has a connection to her via the book, gift  and Morrigan's warning about Flemeth and Change. To just never explore that more with the Warden would be a waste.

Terra_Ex wrote...
Well, the problem with that I suppose is this: I believe one of the devs stated (maybe Laidlaw?) that Morri has a large role to play in an upcoming game, whether that title is Morrigan/Flemeth centric, I don't know.

Its in this interview where it would seem he all but says DA2 and Hawke changing the world is setting up the continuation of Morrigan's story.

Terra_Ex wrote...
This means at least in part, one of your selling points is the return of a much loved character, which players connected with via their Origins warden. If they handwave that relationship then, well it's a recipe for disaster imo. The Witch Hunt flags give some hope imo, as do Gaider's hints that we may see the Warden again. To me, to bring Morrigan back without catering to those who retained their Origins Warden (presumably a greater portion of those who completed the game) would be foolish. Flags like "Morrigan_Stabbed" have little relevence if the warden is not present.

Exactly- to bring back Morrigan but not the Warden at this stage is just stupid and IMO would devalue and hurt the impact of Morrigan's story moving forward. Morrigan is in every instance somehow tied to the Warden, whether thats romance, friendship, getting shivved, doing the DR, or simply providing a gift and warning. So to just ditch the Warden but bring back Morrigan with some new PC seems awfully cheap and squanders much of the point in bringing back Morrigan really, especially if your Warden romanced her.

Terra_Ex wrote...
I find that interesting Shiori, lets say that DA3 focuses on Morrigan (and lets also say that it's her final role in the
DA franchise) would you not find the non-presence of the warden, despite your choices in DA:O and WH to be somewhat disappointing. If the warden was given no screentime surely then the only possible final resolution/happy ending could be given via epilogue slide which would certainly lack the emotional connection bringing back the warden would provide (even if he/she isn't the protagonist.) Such an ending to MorrixWarden & OGB would feel like an afterthought to me.

I'll say that whenever Morrigan's story concludes or continues for that matter, if the Warden isn't there beside her I'll view that as just crummy story telling, provided there isn't some plausible reason why the Warden isn't there. Honestly, I'd even say that if Morrigan comes back as a major player in DA3, I'd be very disappointed if we're not playing as the Warden. Sure I'm curious about the plot surrounding Morrigan but its also having the Warden interacting with her personally that makes her an interesting character. You take the Warden out as the PC and you lose out on about half of the interest in Morrigan.

Maybe thats myopic not knowing who any other possibl PC could be in Morrigan's story, but if you're playing as some new guy yet bringing back an old character like Morrigan, its sort of like whats the point?  I guess if the Warden returned alongside Morrigan even as an NPC that would surely be better than not, but still it would be like being on the outside looking in. As a new PC you'd not be interacting with the Morrigan thats the old favorite, you'd be dealing with some standard version of Morrigan.

I'm hopeful the Warden returns as PC for DA3, as unlikely as that may be- to bring back Morrigan but not the Warden would just feel cheap and really drain Morrigan's return of any emotional engagement, reducing her to a plot element.

[Master Shiori]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

As for Morrigan's future, I cannot honestly say that we're bound to get Gaidered again. Sure, it could turn out badly for Morri and the Warden, but it could also end on a relatively happy note. Morrigan told you it wouldn't be wise to follow her way back in Origins, yet that didn't result in a disaster in WH.

It's clear that whatever she's doing is very dangerous and her suvival and success aren't guaranteed, but I don't believe it means she's bound to die or meet some other bad end by default. And no, I don't expect to see the Warden reappear with Morrigan in DA3, unless Bioware brings him back as the main protagonist.

Right now so much about Morrigan's plans is unknown that I cannot predict how things will play out. At this point anything is possible and I'll just hope for the best. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

I find that interesting Shiori, lets say that DA3 focuses on Morrigan (and lets also say that it's her final role in the
DA franchise) would you not find the non-presence of the warden, despite your choices in DA:O and WH to be somewhat disappointing. If the warden was given no screentime surely then the only possible final resolution/happy ending could be given via epilogue slide which would certainly lack the emotional connection bringing back the warden would provide (even if he/she isn't the protagonist.) Such an ending to MorrixWarden & OGB would feel like an afterthought to me.

Honestly? No, as long as those choices are acknowledged and have an impact on the story.

I don't think of Morrigan as being my Warden's sidekick or my Warden being hers. It's one of the things I love about Morri. She's the first love interest that doesn't bow completely to your will and will follow her own path. If you can balance your own desires with hers then the two of you can be together. Otherwise it's byebye.

I can accept Morrigan doing her own thing in DA3 without my Warden, as long as I'll be able to influence what happens to her through the new hero. The only scenario that I cannot and will not accept is the one where Gaider predetermines what happens to Morri and I, as a player, don't get a say in the matter. If a tragedy has to happen then let me decide who meets the tragic end; my character or Morri.

As long as they make good on their promise that my actions will shape the world (and possibly Morrigan's future) then all is well.
It's only when the writers take all sense of agency from me through tools like DR that I get pissed off.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

I can accept Morrigan doing her own thing in DA3 without my Warden, as long as I'll be able to influence what happens to her through the new hero. The only scenario that I cannot and will not accept is the one where Gaider predetermines what happens to Morri and I, as a player, don't get a say in the matter. If a tragedy has to happen then let me decide who meets the tragic end; my character or Morri.

So you wouldn't mind if Morrigan just mysteriously showed up to a new PC in DA3 with no mention of the Warden? I guess alot would depend on who the new PC is, but I'm not necessarily opposed to Morrigan showing up on her own in DA3. But you'd need a good rationale as to why the Warden wasn't there, and at this juncture I can't think of one other than writing them off in some way or relegating them to an Awakening style letter, which would be just as lame as the DR, I'd think.

The problem I have with being a brand new character interactiing with Morrigan (as I've said before) is that unless they're radicaly changing the character of post MIrror World Morrigan, you're just starting with scratch with her again. I'd find it much more compelling to pick back up with Morrigan through the view of the Warden, but I'm sure all of us would.

Master Shiori wrote...
As long as they make good on their promise that my actions will shape the world (and possibly Morrigan's future) then all is well.
It's only when the writers take all sense of agency from me through tools like DR that I get pissed off.

But wouldn't you find it a bit Plot Hammer-ish to ignore or minimalize the Warden's role if he went through the Eluvian with her? Again, it would depend on how they do that, but I just think leaving the Warden out after you have the choice to follow her through into the unknown and "face the future together" with her would seem sort of cheap.

Maybe with DA3 you could have 2 PC's? Say the first half of the game you play as the Warden then maybe they throw in a Modern Warfare twist and have the Warden go out in some big epic battle scene fighting alongside Morrigan who survives. Then the second half of the game you play as a new PC (or Hawke?) and can run into Morrigan and see how MOrrigan is different due to the Warden's death? Just an idea....

[Bruddajakka]

I'd like to have the Warden return. To the point I'm perfectly willing to except the fact they may just have to "canonize" his voice to do so.



Of course I'm of the impression that DA3 is shaping up to be Morrigan/The Warden against Hawke/Flemeth since he seems to be shaping up as her agent of change.

[Terra_Ex]

These things are always longer than I intend... Let's begin with a Morri pic before we regurgitate all this again.

Brockololly wrote...
Morrigan says in Witch Hunt: " Then come my love. We will face the future together." So yeah, maybe I'm just being myopic, but I expect that should we see Morrigan in the future, my Warden should be right there with her and OGB facing that future TOGETHER.

Well, exactly, if anything WH has simply created a new, even stronger expectation for Morri & the warden to return. Looking at things in a negative light, if this was done simply to placate fans during the DA:O - DA2 interim only to be handwaved later then I'll be expecting a fair few backlash threads in the future.

Brockololly wrote...

Its in this interview where it would seem he all but says DA2 and Hawke changing the world is setting up the continuation of Morrigan's story.

I knew I'd seen it somewhere... It's just torture Brock, but I like the idea of DA2 setting things up for the future.

Brockololly wrote...
I'll say that whenever Morrigan's story concludes or continues for that
matter, if the Warden isn't there beside her I'll view that as just
crummy story telling, provided there isn't some plausible reason why the
Warden isn't there. Honestly, I'd even say that if Morrigan comes back
as a major player in DA3, I'd be very disappointed if we're not playing
as the Warden. Sure I'm curious about the plot surrounding Morrigan but
its also having the Warden interacting with her personally that makes
her an interesting character. You take the Warden out as the PC and you
lose out on about half of the interest in Morrigan.

Agreed, however I'm keeping my expectations slightly lower. Maybe the warden will return as an npc and the game can infer how he'd behave regarding morrigan based on origins & wh. Oh, perhaps we'll have multiple viewpoints, spending playtime as different characters such as the warden, that I'd be happy with. But, I'm expecting each DA title with have a new super-awesome relatable protagonist so as not to dissuade new customers...

Well, let's hope that Laidlaw's "big smile" forecast extends to DA3, lest the smiling morri fans will swiftly turn to angry faces in the not so distant future.

Master Shiori wrote...
Honestly? No, as long as those choices are acknowledged and have an impact on the story.

I don't think of Morrigan as being my Warden's sidekick or my Warden being hers. It's one of the things I love about Morri. She's the first love interest that doesn't bow completely to your will and will follow her own path. If you can balance your own desires with hers then the two of you can be together. Otherwise it's byebye.

Well, the warden's complete absence in DA3 would severely undermine the final line she says to the warden in the WH mirror world ending, as Brock mentioned a codex entry or similar would likely feel very flimsy. Including the warden to some extent, even as a supporting npc is imo a fairly easy bone to throw, makes sense and has been touched upon by the devs. Hell, two of the choices for a romancing warden just before she leaves were essentially stating your desire to follow her (& OGB) to the ends of the earth and beyond, if that doesn't warrant at least an appearance in the future I don't know what does.

Whilst I'll agree that the romance has certainly ran to its conclusion and is reaffirmed in WH (I'm not expecting DA3 to be some epic love story with MorrixWarden kissing every few minutes) the fact remains that the consequences and culmination of the Flemeth, Morrigan & OGB plotlines should be applied to both Morrigan and her co-conspirator, the warden.

Master Shiori wrote...
I can accept Morrigan doing her own thing in DA3 without my Warden, as long as I'll be able to influence what happens to her through the new hero. The only scenario that I cannot and will not accept is the one where Gaider predetermines what happens to Morri and I, as a player, don't get a say in the matter. If a tragedy has to happen then let me decide who meets the tragic end; my character or Morri.

I can agree with this to an extent, certainly pre-WH it held true, but post WH you can say that the roles are reversed from what we came to know in DA:O. Just as Morri fights alongside the warden in DA:O, surely the same should be expected of a mirror world warden in DA3 as Morrigan takes a more prominent role, if you throw your lot in with Morri and are never heard from again except via convenient codex or epilogue, yeah it's anticlimactic to say the least. In essence it's a repeat of the "I intend to find Morrigan" accomplishing/meaning nothing in DA:O. We complained that the DR choices were constrictive and didn't give us the options we craved, WH remedies this to an extent but to write off the warden after witch hunt potentially places us back where we were.

In the video that Brock linked, Laidlaw acknowledges that he, Bioware and the fans know that the Morri plotline is a major pull for the series moving forwards, and with the WH endings I'd say fans will probaly be more disappointed by a Warden-less DA3 than if they'd just left it with the DR ending. All WH endings have strengthened the warden/morrigan linked but one in particular has cemented an already popular expectation of Morrigan fans. As Brock states it'd be easy to backpedal against the progress the player has made in Origins & WH simply by excluding the Warden from DA3. If it was Gaider's intent to be cruel to morri fans in WH by creating a false hope, then he will have succeeded admirably in the mirror world ending, personally I'm hoping he and Bioware are considering it but as always they'll keep the cards close to their chest for now.

Tbh, on both a plot potential and fan service level, it's too good not to pick up on, Gaider describes OGB as the biggest decision in Origins, after making a big decision, I tend to like it if my character is actually around to experience the consequences first hand, as opposed to simply disappearing.

Brockololly wrote...
So you wouldn't mind if Morrigan just mysteriously showed up to a new PC in DA3 with no mention of the Warden? I guess alot would depend on who the new PC is, but I'm not necessarily opposed to Morrigan showing up on her own in DA3. But you'd need a good rationale as to why the Warden wasn't there, and at this juncture I can't think of one other than writing them off in some way or relegating them to an Awakening style letter, which would be just as lame as the DR, I'd think.

The problem I have with being a brand new character interactiing with Morrigan (as I've said before) is that unless they're radicaly changing the character of post MIrror World Morrigan, you're just starting with scratch with her again. I'd find it much more compelling to pick back up with Morrigan through the view of the Warden, but I'm sure all of us would.
...
Maybe with DA3 you could have 2 PC's? Say the first half of the game you play as the Warden then maybe they throw in a Modern Warfare twist and have the Warden go out in some big epic battle scene fighting alongside Morrigan who survives. Then the second half of the game you play as a new PC (or Hawke?) and can run into Morrigan and see how Morrigan is different due to the Warden's death? Just an idea....

Well, would Morrigan work as a playable character in DA3, presumably not due to the power-seeking in WH and the fact that we already know much about her from DA:O, retreading old ground or starting from scratch wouldn't work either. You can get away with it with characters like Flemeth, where you've still got a lot of mystery, but with Morrigan the player has an investment through their existing character, concluding her arc to the exclusion of the warden (the only character who actually connects with her during origins) wouldn't sit well with me.

I've seen and suggested multiple protagonists before and considering the fact that Hawke may be working with or at least for Flemeth, there's an interesting set up right there. A multi-PC setup also breaks from the traditional narrative structure so that's a plus point... After WH, I wouldn't say it's necessary to have the warden as a protagonist, since the game could adjust his attitude to morrigan based on past actions, but it would be very pleasing if it does happen. The one thing we don't want is a repeat of NWN.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 19 septembre 2010 - 04:49 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

I can accept Morrigan doing her own thing in DA3 without my Warden, as long as I'll be able to influence what happens to her through the new hero. The only scenario that I cannot and will not accept is the one where Gaider predetermines what happens to Morri and I, as a player, don't get a say in the matter. If a tragedy has to happen then let me decide who meets the tragic end; my character or Morri.

So you wouldn't mind if Morrigan just mysteriously showed up to a new PC in DA3 with no mention of the Warden? I guess alot would depend on who the new PC is, but I'm not necessarily opposed to Morrigan showing up on her own in DA3. But you'd need a good rationale as to why the Warden wasn't there, and at this juncture I can't think of one other than writing them off in some way or relegating them to an Awakening style letter, which would be just as lame as the DR, I'd think.

The problem I have with being a brand new character interactiing with Morrigan (as I've said before) is that unless they're radicaly changing the character of post MIrror World Morrigan, you're just starting with scratch with her again. I'd find it much more compelling to pick back up with Morrigan through the view of the Warden, but I'm sure all of us would.

Who says she wouldn't mention the Warden?

I see Morrigan appearing as a mysterious ally who is willing to aid the new PC against Flemeth. It's up to you to decide how they'll get along. I also expect her to metion the Warden when she shares her knowledge of Flemeth and the events in Origins and Witch Hunt.
Can you imagine Morrigan making a comment about the new PC and his LI by saying: "I used to think love was a weakness and not worth the trouble until I met a certain Warden in Ferelden who changed my outlook". She could then explain what she feels for him and what their relationship is like.
It can be quite satisfying is done properly. Ofc, I would preffer to play as the Warden again, but would mean finding a male and female voice actors who could voice humans, dwarves and elves (which is quite a challenge) and also finding a way to explain why the Warden is back to being a level 1 character (not neccesarily hard, but Bioware seem to want a logical explanation for everything).

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
As long as they make good on their promise that my actions will shape the world (and possibly Morrigan's future) then all is well.
It's only when the writers take all sense of agency from me through tools like DR that I get pissed off.

But wouldn't you find it a bit Plot Hammer-ish to ignore or minimalize the Warden's role if he went through the Eluvian with her? Again, it would depend on how they do that, but I just think leaving the Warden out after you have the choice to follow her through into the unknown and "face the future together" with her would seem sort of cheap.

Maybe with DA3 you could have 2 PC's? Say the first half of the game you play as the Warden then maybe they throw in a Modern Warfare twist and have the Warden go out in some big epic battle scene fighting alongside Morrigan who survives. Then the second half of the game you play as a new PC (or Hawke?) and can run into Morrigan and see how MOrrigan is different due to the Warden's death? Just an idea....

The problem here is that you're looking at it purely from a perspective of someone who romanced Morrigan and followed her through the mirror. What about those who were her friend and couldn't follow? What if the Warden choose not to go with her? What if he/she hated her and choose to stab her?

Granted there are pieces being set in place since Awakening that may provide Bioware with an excuse to bring the Warden back in DA3: A new Blight being rumored to have started in Anderfels, Morrigan warning the Orlasian Warden that the Wardens should be ready to combat Flemeth, since she may had something to do with the last Blight, etc.
Still, none of these things guarantee that the Warden will be back at this point.

And no, I don't think they'll let us switch the protagonist halfway through the game. Whatever happens, it's likely we'll be playing with the same character in DA3 from start to finish.

Whatever Bioware decides to do, it needs to work for everyone: people who played Origins, those who came aboard with Hawke in DA2 and those who never played a DA title before Dragon Age 3.
A new protagonist who respects the decisions and relationships from previous games is the easiest solution at this point. As long as Morrigan acknowledges her relationship with the Warden and goes back to him after DA3 is done (provided ofc she is alive and free to do so) then I have no problem with it.
I'd love nothing more than to play again as the Warden and have Morrigan in my group, but I also need to face reality and realize that Bioware isn't making DA3 purely for people like myself. They need to think of everyone or the game will never sell properly.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 19 septembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[ximena]

Wow. Morrithread is back to regular programming it seems! Sadly, I have nothing to add in the current discussion. Brain needs to recover. XD

Anyway, as an interlude to the long posts, let me just ninja in the links to the new pages.

p21, p22, p23.

Modifié par ximena, 19 septembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Bruddajakka]

Just remember this is the same company who made a massive deal about how a game is going to be a suicide mission, and you may not survive so your choices matter, and then hand waved it in the same breath but you'll still play as Shepard in ME3. Just not as yours.



So it's very likely they could have the default character be the Warden from DAO just not have it be your Grey Warden from DAO.

[Master Shiori]

ximena wrote...

Wow. Morrithread is back to regular programming it seems! Sadly, I have nothing to add in the current discussion. Brain needs to recover. XD

Anyway, as an interlude to the long posts, let me just ninja in the links to the new pages.

p21, p22, p23.

Awesome!

Thanks for the links Ximena. <3

[Master Shiori]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Just remember this is the same company who made a massive deal about how a game is going to be a suicide mission, and you may not survive so your choices matter, and then hand waved it in the same breath but you'll still play as Shepard in ME3. Just not as yours.

So it's very likely they could have the default character be the Warden from DAO just not have it be your Grey Warden from DAO.

Well, all I'm saying is that anything is possible at this point.

There are compeling reasons to bring the Warden back or have a new PC as protagonist.

They did say that DA series is about Thedas and heroes changing the world, but they never said the same hero cannot have more than 1 adventure or not be the protagonist in more than 1 game.

The fact that they refuse to confirm that the Warden's story is over with Origins is also telling.

But right now we don't have enough info to make a proper speculation on what may or may not happen in Dragon Age 3. Let us first see what Hawke's story will bring and then discuss what it means for our Warden's future and for Morrigan.

[Lorianno]

Assuming this is the right place to put it, I was somewhat surprised and almost perturbed to find that at the end of witchhunt when i confronted Morrigan she claimed I did not go through with the ritual, and thus refused me any information despite me most certainly going through with the ritual.



What the ****.

[Bruddajakka]

It's a bug. That's been know about since it was released. Tons of info about it.

[Nerevar-as]

Lorianno wrote...

Assuming this is the right place to put it, I was somewhat surprised and almost perturbed to find that at the end of witchhunt when i confronted Morrigan she claimed I did not go through with the ritual, and thus refused me any information despite me most certainly going through with the ritual.

What the ****.

It´s a bug that appears if you use a camp save post coronation. They are fixing it, and some others that somehow went pass Quality (if it ever went through quality, that is). This includes not doing a final savegame.

A good way to have the Warden would be the "Taste of Power" trope that will also be in DA2. Have some sections of the game with a powerful character and the rest with the current PC. About Morrigan, how powerful should she be when she reappears? I don´t want that JRPG trope of powerful characters becoming wimps the moment they join the party.

[IndigoWolfe]

A comment my brother just made inspired me to come by this thread and state how grateful I am that Morrigan never once exclaims "hark." That is all.

[IndigoWolfe]

Oh right, and the avatar you see before you is my new Rojir Surana, the latest of my Morrimancing Wardens. Technically, it's my second, but I just replayed my Nero Cousland three times.

[Shade of Wolf]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Closure in the context of Origins, yes, in regard of Morrigan's future return - no. There's still ample opportunity for the warden to be codexed out of existence for the sake of convenience. Remember Shiori, a true Morri fan is always looking to the future, he never rests on his laurels and is ever wary of ways he can be screwed over. That said I'm fairly hopeful we'll get some follow-up in the future. Like Bruddajakka mentioned, I'm expecting/hoping for something big in the future, tbh I probably wouldn't mind a ending where warden & morri both die, so long as there's some actual meaning in said resolution. I shall hope for the best though

I have to admit, at this point I'd be satisfied with both of us dieing, at least if it's together... And it was for something, something big and awesome if not for ''good''.

[Shade of Wolf]

Master Shiori wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote..
Funny enough, I actually didn't mind the ending to Viconia's romance. At least you ahd a period of bliss before she got assassinated. But the important thing is that the romance had closure, which Morrigan's didn't until the Witch Hunt.

I wouldn't mind if Morrigan and the Warden both died, but anytime you're doing something big like that, you've got to be sure to give those sort of big moments the care and attention to detail they deserve and not relegate it to an epilogue or codex. Any tragic end for Morrigan or the Warden would need to be meaningful and not just "Oh, the Warden died in Mirror World. Deal with it." 

I honestly am expecting a bad end for Morrigan and the Warden though sadly. Going waaay back into the archives, you've got this quote from Gaider on Viconia's romance ending:

David Gaider wrote...

Thread: Character Creation  [+8]

Date: Thursday, 29 June 2006 09:24PM 

Quote: Posted 06/29/06 19:48:06 (GMT) by Melirinda
I understand that. I do want to be more certain of what a character  actually did -evil or good- I sort of want to see consequences to it,  witnesses, another person's account, some sort of "real thing". As we  all are more inclined to believe in "goodness" of the characters that  accompany us, especially if we like them, I am obviously bias for seeing the "evil" deeds commited, accounted for or having no-nosense  consequences.

I have no issues with consequences for evil deeds -- karma's a ***. Indeed, I  always thought it was a little amusing the way some folks freaked out at the idea of Viconia meeting a tragic end in the epilogue. To me, there  was never any other possible result for the Viconia romance. She even  tells you so.

But not every evil deed requires equal consequence, either. Not only would that be unrealistic, doing that would also be  very preachy, especially when you're supposed to be allowing  Evil-aligned characters in a game and not throwing Cosmic Justice at  them and/or the only Evil party members that they can recruit. Which  means that for a novel, BG2 makes for a great game -- and that's the way it has to be.

I could also make a comment about the differences in plot-centric and character-centric approaches, but I'm sure you get  the point.

That little comment about how Viconia even told you things wouldn't work out is eerily similar to Morrigan's romance. First you had Gaider mentioning after DAO came out  that in Origins Morrigan basically says things won't work out early on and lo and behold! Things didn't work out as Morrigan leaves you no matter what.

Think of how she says in Witch Hunt when you ask to come into the mirror that "You... cannot know what you ask. Twould be better if you stayed. For you, for us both." If we're to go by Gaider logic, that seems like sufficient warning for a potential future GOTCHA moment of writing off the Warden in Mirror World or something. Even with Witch Hunt's relatively "happy" ending for Morrigan and the Warden I just get the feeling that its only temporary- that the writiing is on the wall with Morrigan that there is WAAAAY more going on than she is letting us in on. And that possibly whenever that stuff comes to the surface, maybe Morrigan gets in over her head or something worthy of getting Gaider'd shall befall us Morrigan romancing Wardens.

I understand his comment about Viconia, but I think he got it backwards. It should be: "No good deed goes unpunished".

That said, I don't expect him to just copy paste Viconia's romance on Morrigan. David is a proffesional writer who doesn't need to copy his previous characters in order to make a good story.

As for Morrigan's future, I cannot honestly say that we're bound to get Gaidered again. Sure, it could turn out badly for Morri and the Warden, but it could also end on a relatively happy note. Morrigan told you it wouldn't be wise to follow her way back in Origins, yet that didn't result in a disaster in WH.
It's clear that whatever she's doing is very dangerous and her suvival and success aren't guaranteed, but I don't believe it means she's bound to die or meet some other bad end by default.
And no, I don't expect to see the Warden reappear with Morrigan in DA3, unless Bioware brings him back as the main protagonist.
Right now so much about Morrigan's plans is unknown that I cannot predict how things will play out. At this point anything is possible and I'll just hope for the best.

I think somebody posted something like this earlier on in the thread, anyway:
Dragon Age is all about making choices, and thus a happy ending should be mildly possible, even if it means bad for other npcs, or you need to have done a lot of sidequests or fulfilled certain conditions (like a persuade), but every ending shouldn't all be bad!

[Brockololly]

GAH! Another too long, rambling post!
Quick question: What would be Morrigan's favorite food? What would she cook?



[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I knew I'd seen it somewhere... It's just torture Brock, but I like the idea of DA2 setting things up for the future.[/quote]
Yeah, it would just be massively disappointing if DA3 comes around and Morrigan is only a minor player or something- how deflating. Anyway, I've started to finally read George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire- if the world of DA can expand like that, DA as a series could be very cool (hopefully not quite as bleak however...)

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Whilst I'll agree that the romance has certainly ran to its conclusion and is reaffirmed in WH (I'm not expecting DA3 to be some epic love story with MorrixWarden kissing every few minutes) the fact remains that the consequences and culmination of the Flemeth, Morrigan & OGB plotlines should be applied to both Morrigan and her co-conspirator, the warden.[/quote]
Exactly- if you did the DR or even just spoke with Morrigan as teh Orlesian in WItch Hunt, the foundation is there for Morrigan and the Warden being tied together somehow. Even though it was glossed over in Witch Hunt, the First Wardens and the Wardens at large have an interest in Morrigan and Flemeth's role in the Blight. So one would assume that should Flemeth raise hell in DA2 and once Morrigan returns, there will no doubt be many people interested in what they're up to.
Obviously its really far out, but even so, to conclude or continue Morrigan's story without the Warden would seem contrived, especially given Witch Hunt's endings. Whats the point in flagging Morrigan getting stabbed if its just some random Hero Dude dealing with her? Sure, maybe it affects her outlook on things but it would be more emotionally engaging to have Morrigan be dealing with the Warden that gutted her than some random Hero.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
I can agree with this to an extent, certainly pre-WH it held true, but post WH you can say that the roles are reversed from what we came to know in DA:O. Just as Morri fights alongside the warden in DA:O, surely the same should be expected of a mirror world warden in DA3 as Morrigan takes a more prominent role, if you throw your lot in with Morri and are never heard from again except via convenient codex or epilogue, yeah it's anticlimactic to say the least. In essence it's a repeat of the "I intend to find Morrigan" accomplishing/meaning nothing in DA:O. We complained that the DR choices were constrictive and didn't give us the options we craved, WH remedies this to an extent but to write off the warden after witch hunt potentially places us back where we were. [/quote]
Well said, Terra. Basically, Morrigan helped the Warden throughout DAO (albeit with an ulterior motive), so it stands to reason that even if you didn't follow her in WH, the Warden would still be standing guard watching for whatever "change" she mentioned- even if your Warden gutted her.

Its like you said though- the fear with the DR "Searching for Morrigan" ending was that Morrigan would turn up in the future with our Warden no where to be found, in limbo. While WH's ending is nice, if Morrigan simply turns up as a mysterious NPC in DA3 to a new hero, we're in the same boat again with the Warden- basically the Warden would be in limbo again not being able to follow or help Morrigan in conceivably the critical moments in her plan.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Tbh, on both a plot potential and fan service level, it's too good not to pick up on, Gaider describes OGB as the biggest decision in Origins, after making a big decision, I tend to like it if my character is actually around to experience the consequences first hand, as opposed to simply disappearing.[/quote]
That whole plot is gold- and its even better if you romanced Morrigan and have the OGB. Given how frequently in interviews it seems BioWare gets pestered about Morrigan, I would hope they realize that its not enough though to just bring Morrigan back in DA3. To get the most out of that story, you've got to include the Warden in it now, especially given how Witch Hunt lumps more questions into the whole thing. 


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
You can get away with it with characters like Flemeth, where you've still got a lot of mystery, but with Morrigan the player has an investment through their existing character, concluding her arc to the exclusion of the warden (the only character who actually connects with her during origins) wouldn't sit well with me. [/quote]
Right and if DA3 is the culmination of Morrigan's story, given how the Wardens have closely tied into her story thus far, it would seem silly not to have the Wardens be there at the end- that goes for all of the Wardens; if you romanced her you obviously have an interest; if you gutted her, you'd likely want to finish the job; and if you were friendly, there is probably some Warden centric reason for you to be involved.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
The one thing we don't want is a repeat of NWN.
[/quote]
^THIS.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
I see Morrigan appearing as a mysterious ally who is willing to aid the  new PC against Flemeth. It's up to you to decide how they'll get along. I also expect her to metion the Warden when she shares her knowledge of  Flemeth and the events in Origins and Witch Hunt. [/quote]
But thats my issue- knowing what we know about Morrigan, it would ring false to me to have her show up and gush about her feelings for the Warden to some random Hero Dude when it takes the better course of a game to have her even crack a little bit in Origins. Or conversely to have her reveal insight into her plans to some random Hero Dude would feel contrived given that she won't even say anything to a  Warden she loves.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Ofc, I would preffer to play  as the Warden again, but would mean finding a male and female voice  actors who could voice humans, dwarves and elves (which is quite a  challenge) and also finding a way to explain why the Warden is back to  being a level 1 character (not neccesarily hard, but Bioware seem to  want a logical explanation for everything).[/quote]
Thats assuming they go with player VO, which sadly is probably what they'll stick with from here on out. But you never know. As for resetting the Warden, well given all the other changes they've made to combat they wouldn't even need to necessarily start you out at level 1- maybe they arbitrarily set you to level 15 or 20 or wherever Hawke ends up in DA2. That sort of stuff ideally shouldn't stop them from telling the story they want to tell.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
The problem here is that you're looking at it purely from a perspective of  someone who romanced Morrigan and followed her through the mirror. What  about those who were her friend and couldn't follow? What if the Warden  choose not to go with her? What if he/she hated her and choose to stab  her?[/quote]
But thats the point really- if WH is tracking those flags, to follow up on those actions with some random Hero Dude would suck the life out of the consequences, IMO. But like you mention, they seem to be laying down hints that the Warden's role with Morrigan is not done and again, its about consequences for your actions.  If my misanthropic Orlesian ripped open Morrigan's belly with his murder knife, when Morrigan comes back, I want her interacting with the Orlesian Warden- it would make for the most emotionally engaging scene, IMO.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
And no, I don't think they'll let us switch the protagonist halfway through the game. Whatever happens, it's likely we'll be playing with the same  character in DA3 from start to finish.[/quote] But certainly switching up the PCs would be something new and different and shake things up from BioWare's traditional story structures, which is one thing they seem to be playing with in DA2. Just an idea.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Whatever Bioware decides  to do, it needs to work for everyone: people who played Origins, those  who came aboard with Hawke in DA2 and those who never played a DA title  before Dragon Age 3. A new protagonist who respects the decisions and relationships from previous games is the easiest solution at this  point. As long as Morrigan acknowledges her relationship with the Warden and goes back to him after DA3 is done (provided ofc she is alive and  free to do so) then I have no problem with it. I'd love nothing more  than to play again as the Warden and have Morrigan in my group, but I  also need to face reality and realize that Bioware isn't making DA3  purely for people like myself. They need to think of everyone or the  game will never sell properly.
[/quote]

Right, but at the same time, I want them telling a damn good story. In my view, given how they've left things with Witch Hunt that would involve bringing the Warden back to fight alongside Morrigan to whatever end- PC or not. Simply give Morrigan some story critical role involving the Wardens at large and you give plenty of reason as to why any of the various sorts of Wardens would logically step back on center stage.

Sure starting with a new PC is the easiest route, but would it make for the most satisfying game where you're conceivably dealing with an old companion like Morrigan returning? Maybe, maybe not. I'd just hate to not have the Warden involved at all or to kill off or have Morrigan off doing something major without any plausible rationale as to why the Warden is out of the picture.

Maybe my expectations are too high, but given how WH ended and the fact that my Warden was willing to search the ends of the Thedas to find Morrigan and took a leap of faith by stepping into the Eluvian with her, to just have him handwaved away in the climactic final act to Morrigan's story would be just as bad as any DR Plot Hammering.

But hopefully DA2 will give us some more concrete speculation fuel!


[quote]Nerevar-as wrote...
A good way to have the Warden would be the "Taste of  Power" trope that will also be in DA2. Have some sections of the game  with a powerful character and the rest with the current PC. About  Morrigan, how powerful should she be when she reappears? I don´t want  that JRPG trope of powerful characters becoming wimps the moment they  join the party.[/quote]
Good point- if DA3 went with multiple PC's they could sort of treat the Warden's part as similar to the "exaggerated" parts of DA2.

As for Morrigan being super powerful in game upon returning, it cuts to the issue of how DA2 handles combat potentially. It seems they've sort of redone how leveling and XP works, so I just want to know if in DA3 they plan on starting us out at level 1 AGAIN or if we can continue with the Warden or Hawke to be able to play some high level combat in DA3. Obviously Awakening borked upper level combat, but story wise, if DA3 takes place when stuff is hitting the fan and Thedas is in World War mode with Flemeth and Morrigan duking it out, I'd want to be a high level Hawke or Warden fighting alongside them.

Similar to how ME2 redid combat and XP with ME3 starting you at a high level, I'd like to see BioWare give DA3 some well balanced high level combat. That way you can have a super powered Morrigan, Flemeth or Old God baby join your party while not making them seem like noobs once they're out of a cutscene.

Modifié par Brockololly, 19 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Ah, it's just like the old days, Brock, worrying over the future in a series of epic posts We need to get the old gang back together. Uber-post time, later we will need some more Morri pics to break up these "serious business" moments...

The counterpoint of course is that if the "Gaider's girl" is always destined for the chopping block by a game/series end via Gaider signposting the "inevitable outcome" from the off, then players will become disinclined to take that course as it's an unwinnable game, regardless of the journey one might undertake...

On the other hand, if DA is all about choice it'd be a nice (and fitting) change if the bad (or misunderstood) girl actually did get a chance at a nice ending, but the player really had to work for it, even over the course of several games. With DA touted as "no set canon" and history playing out differently, maybe Gaider has revised his "never any other possible result" line of thinking for Morrigan (and DA in general) otherwise it's just Plot Hammer>agency. I'd certainly like to think this is the case and in keeping with the overall theme of DA, we shall see...

You've got it spot on Brock. For all those heralding or whining about how the Morrigan romancers got a "happy" ending, I'm thinking... REALLY? Did you conveniently ignore the undertones of said conversation? Clearly they've never been Gaider'd before...

All good points.  I have a serious problem in the Gaider logic that says "so an so said X therefore it will happen (and should be no surprise to anyone)."  Nonsense.  People are wrong all the time.  Unexpected events rise and/or exceptional people are encountered and waylay all our preconcieved notions and alter the course of events all the time.  No one is omniscient and nothing is predetermined.  Things change and people never know (and cannot foresee) the future.  What we think may happen in the future rarely does.  To give a character such ability is contrived. If Morrigan could actually see the future, she would emphatically state so and tell the Warden why he should,shouldn't do a given thing.  No, there is enough doubt in her vision of the future that the possibility of the Warden assisting her is not only feasible but desireable. She might be able to foresee the danger and even the outline of something resembling a lost cause, but to call it foregone because Morrigan or Viconia say so is preposterous, and only serves, in the interactive genre of nuetralizing the player's involvement.  If the world (story) is set on a predetermined course, why bother doing anything to begin with?

I love the artistic idea of interactive story telling where a dark OR good result might occur.  That is groundbreaking.  That is where the evolution of such games should be heading.  To chart a path toward a predetermined course X in an interactive story, eliminates any need for players to make any choice in the story.  Why bother with making any choice if the ending is just going to suck? This is where ME2 stood head and shoulders above Dragon Age.  If you did the hard things and made the right choices your companions were spared.  F-up any of those important choices and you start losing companions.  Yes, the mission may succeed, but at what cost?

To me, this has to be built in as the notion of the interactive story emerges into a more mature form.  But then again, as BW attempts to "expand" their player base, this notion may give way to more linear "this is the way it's going to be/do as you're told" story telling.