First, a Morri pic... This is a large post since Brock posted two good sized posts already
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
She'd probably slap him then kiss him, then give the Warden some equally goofy nickname intended to grate on his nerves.
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Yep, seems a very Morrigan-esque thing to do
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Thats true- it would be kind of disappointing if her and the OGB weren't party members though. That dynamic could certainly show a different side to Morrigan.
I guess a huge determining factor in how DA3 potentially plays out with Morrigan is when in the timeline it takes place. Does it pick up right as DA2 ends or even right as she enters the Eluvian, then skip ahead framed narrative style? Or does it start 10 years or so after the events of DA2, withthe Old God Baby all grown up and Morrigan now about 45-50 years old? Meh- I hope they don't skip ahead so quickly like that- doing so certainly wouldn't help out the case for the Warden returning either, with the Taint and all.
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It all depends on what Flemeth & Morrigan's respective plans are, in WH Morrigan's resolve is still strong and I can't picture her seeking outside help in her endeavours with the possible exception of the warden if he/she is a friend/lover.
There's the possibility that Mirror world allows for Morri not to age... though the child presumably needs to... but logic dictates BW would want Morri to retain her sex appeal when she returns... hmmm... I 'm not sure they'll use the framed narrative style again so soon after DA2... I'm assuming going off what Laidlaw said that DA3 will likely pick up immediately after DA2, the question was also asked about whether Hawke would age over the 10 year period and the answer was no, so I'm not expecting any major timeline jumps.
On the taint, while I would like it to be further explored, Ximena's DW weaves the taint into things and it's turning out to be a nice story, especially since the child is female while the canon is now male.
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The fact that Gaider went on to say how Witch Hunt wasn't just the Morrigan romance DLC but that her story was relevent to all Wardens could be used as an argument for the Warden returning whenever Morrigan comes back into the picture, really:"
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Whilst dissecting Gaider quotes is usually something of a double edged sword, this one does indeed support what we've been saying.
I always thought this was fairly obvious, aside from various meta-gamers who apparently send her away immediately, she does indeed have an important role to play both at the beginning and end of Origins.
I think those that are shunning Morri are only succeeding in creating another Flemeth, Morri expects to be betrayed and despised, this comes across strongly in the dialog where you can betray her to the templars (cut from the game) as she falls back on Flemeth's teachings after you turn her in. By doing the opposite of what she expects, all wardens are able to give her cause to reflect on her life under Flemeth's thumb and possibly change the course of events in a future DA title.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
What about the books? What were the art resource names? I always find that odd- they sparkle like you should be able to use them, like there was supposed to be more maybe. Or its just them not disabling that effect in the cutscene....
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The books don't have any fancy names or anything, I'm just confirming that she left two books, one large and one small. Since the graphics for small props have less than stellar textures I thought it was worth clarifying what exactly she left behind. The resource names are:
-genip_book_2
-genip_book_large
Not too thrilling, eh?
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Especially with the whole drive for "accessability" and all in games now, it is worrisome that BIoWare may simply continue on with Morrigan's story with some new unrelated PC simply for the notion that it would be better for people that didn't even play the first couple games. Like you said, big consequences for actions taken by a given character should be dealt with by that same character directly- not some other random Hero. Now maybe there are further ripples from the actions of a given hero down the road, but the BIG consequences should be dealt with by the Hero that caused them. So in the case of Morrigan, if you did the DR and are dealing with OGB or if you shivved Morrigan, that exact Warden should be the one dealing with her and all the ramifications of those actions down the road.
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Well, they'd be doing themselves a disservice in doing so tbh. Your summation is perfect though, I'm fine with the ripples down the road, but things like OGB affect the both the individual player character on a personal level and potentially the world at large later. In handling a plot like that it's expected the PC who made those choices will be around to experience the changes he/she wrought. I notice this is something that seems like it will be addressed in DA2 via the timeline structure, even so the Morri/Flemeth/Warden/presumably Hawke plotline remains in play and all involved should be back for the finale imo.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Right- the ending for Witch Hunt, particularly for the Warden that romanced Morrigan is fantastic and provides a perfect ending, whereby if we never saw the Warden or Morrigan again, I'd be fine with that. But it seems apparent that Morrigan still has a large role to play in Thedas- so bringing her back but not the Warden simply leaves us right where we were before Witch Hunt again.
But I'd like to think that whatever may come with Morrigan in the future, the Wardens play a role in it somehow, someway. They certainly have laid the groundwork for it, it would seem.
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Well as we've talked about previously, that's the feeling a lot of us got from the WH ending. Like Shiori mentioned, coupling this with Gaider's subtle hints and allusions to the possibility of our wardens returning in the future, you've potentially got *an* answer, albeit not a conclusive one. I like to hope that the devs are dropping these hints with a reason in mind, but a lot of people don't seem to take the hint, which leads to exasperation on the devs' side of things.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I guess the big difference with Morrigan and Viconia is how Viconia often spelled it out about wanting to settle down and was a bit more open about her emotions and desires. Whereas Morrigan keeps her feelings bottled up and her plans hidden. But in terms of both Morrigan and Viconia warning the player of how things will turn up and having that become true- that is the case. I just hope thats not justification of screwing over the Wardens that went through the mirror with Morrigan: "Oh, Morrigan warned you it would be best if you stayed behind!" Yeah, but she also said we'd never see her again or that she'd never return to Ferelden- those didn't come true....
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Well, that's the thing, I can accept that sometimes such an ending is inevitable. However, when Gaider repeatedly writes strong, dark female characters and they always have one set outcome, it becomes tiresome. The characters themselves are outstanding, the plot-hammer outcomes, not so much. We don't know what the final verdict will be with Morrigan, but I have a suspicion there may be more than one possible outcome this time.
[quote]ximena wrote...
If the romancing Warden knows what's good for him, he wouldn't even there.
Warden: Oh hey Mo'!
Morrigan: *icy glare*
Warden: -rrigan. I meant Morrigan. *sweats profusely*
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Haha, yes I think we know who wears the trousers in that relationship
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, considering that in DA2 they're apparently giving the Dalish Welsh accents thats an even further wrinkle added to voicing the Warden should he/she return. If voicing the Warden is what it would take to bring him back as the PC, that would be ok, if less than ideal- a voiced PC is great for things like having the PC give speeches, but I find it dreadful in romances.
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I find it dreadful for immersion, period. If I'm playing an rpg I don't care what someone sat next to me thinks about conversional flow, because they are not "playing" the game. In a serious rpg immersion is the key not sitting around basking in the wow factor of "teh awesome VO of lady-killer Shepard". And yes, as you say, it kills any sense of personal connection in the romance department.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
In short she'd explain her history with Flemeth and maybe say why she wants to stop her. The player is the one who shares this with Morrigan and is forced to work with her towards a common goal. That doesn't mean he/she is aware of all her plans, just as the Warden wasn't aware of the DR when he recruited Morri.
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The problem with that is it's retreading old ground. If Morri is telling a new PC about how Flemeth tried to steal her body and whatnot, the player already knows this information. It serves no purpose for players who've been with the series since its inception and possibly undermines the player's role in DA:O since she's giving a rundown to some random guy. In essence it's wasted VO lines.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
Oh, I agree that not having the Warden deal with Flemeth in DA3 would be disappointing, especialy if he had a close relationship with Morrigan.
I'm hoping all these hints that David is throwing aroud mean we'll get to play as the Warden again.
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Indeed, that is my hope as well. Hints have been dropped and brows have been raised. My main concern is if you chose the mirror world ending then the warden most definitely should at the very least be there.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
In it was a short refference to Witch Hunt where it was confirmed that Morrigan is the most popular character from Origins.
Just something to give us Morri fans a reason to smile.
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As if there was ever any doubt
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
1) Hawke's family will be an important part of DA2 story.
2) Flemeth's package to the Dalish is supposed to set off a chain of events that culminate in Chantry's downfall.
3) Qunari invasion will happen somewhere midgame and is the event that has Hawke becoming the champion of Kirkwall.
4) Tactical camera view in combat on PC is still there, but you cannot zoom out as far as you could in Origins.
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1 & 4 are known to me.
I'm wondering if Sten might make an appearance at some point... Also, if we left him in his cage in Lothering will he be there in DA2...
I wonder if Hawke will have reason to fight Flemeth at any point in DA2...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Another avatar change! Angry Orlesian dog time! This guy totally gutted Morrigan with the murder knife[/quote]
Gah, switch back!
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
As far as her telling anyone about her and the Warden, I can't think of any scenarios where that would play out realistically without having to say Morrigan's character has changed drastically since we last saw her. I mean in Origins, other party members like Wynne or Leliana or Alistair ask about the Warden and Morrigan and almost every single time she'll deflect the question or say its not love but simply passion shared between equals or something. But even that she only shares because its likely the other party members know about it, what with everyone living in camp and all.
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Agreed. It would seem forced and cheapen both her character and the romance were she to do so.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Noto veer off into a rant, but voicing the PC is just a tremendous waste of resources IMO. I'd much rather they try other approaches to fix any shortcomings of the silent PC not being emotive enough- maybe switch to a first person view in dialogue so you don't see the PC's blank face if thats perceived to be a problem. Or maybe use a voice selectively like with the combat shout outs when its necessary like speeches. All I know is that most likely I won't be able to enjoy DA2 as deeply as Origins because of the player VO.
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Didn't they originally say it'd cost too much to fully voice over the PC for Origins. But now, all is fine and well for DA2, but what's this- game length takes a hit alongside immersion. As you say, there are other avenues to explore before writing off the silent protagonist.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I don't know about that necessarily. If I'm not mistaken, isn't ME3 going to start you off at whatever level your Shep ended in ME2? I thought that was partly why they reset Shep in ME2. I know in BG1 you only went up to level 9 or so...didn't you start about there in BG2?
I'm just thinking though, it gets old starting at level 1 with a new PC every single game. It seems that the way they're restructuring the skill/spell tree, it will possibly allow for more balanced upper level combat. And story wise if DA3 is when stuff is hitting the fan and Thedas is engulfed in war with the Chantry crumbling, Flemeth doing who knows what and Morrigan and Old God Baby stepping back on stage, I'd like to be a higher level guy from the onset and not have to kill rats and poison spiders before trudging into the big action.
Hell, even in DA2 in the exaggerated portions you're essentially starting the game out as an upper level god like character, so there is some precedence.
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Yep, BG2 started you at around the same level you finished BG1 at. The problem with the assumption that each game should start from level 1 and have a new protagonist is then DA becomes just like any other series of rpgs that you can just pick up and run through. I'd like to think that in-game tutorials have evolved to the point that one could pick up a game and get into it without having to be at level 1. To be continuously forced back down to low level combat for every DA outing and taking a peasant from rags to riches easily becomes tiresome. Taste of Power also disproves this to an extent regardless.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, they just pulled that very thing off in Witch Hunt- simply have the First Warden order you to search for Morrigan or Flemeth to investigate theri role in the Blight or whatever "change" they're part of. Wardens have the freedom to go anywhere, so its not that much of a stretch story wise. Or even have the Warden off doing something unrelated to Morrigan when it becomes apparent that Morrigan plays an important role.
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Yep, that was part of the point of WH as I see it. Morrigan warns all wardens about Flemeth and the coming change, thus you have a canon reason for all wardens to get involved in a future DA entry.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
It probably would be cheaper to just stick with one PC, but as far as resources go, whats the point of the exaggerated narrative sections in DA2? Thats pretty much fluff. So maybe switching between a new PC and an established one like the Warden wouldn't be too much of a stretch if BioWare is looking to continually innovate.
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Yeah, I brought that up earlier, the idea of exaggerations is a novel concept in both terms of gameplay and storyline consistency and I'd like to see similar experiments in the future. Having more than one protagonist could easily provide a way for the warden to come back without having him/her as the sole focus of the game.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I kind of doubt they'd do it, but DA3 hasn't been dream crushed yet like DA2 has, so we can come up with wonderfully myopic ideal versions of the game only to be massively disappointed all over again once details come out in a couple years
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Spoken like a true Morri fan Brock. We've got the flags, the hints, the cliffhanger, the fact that WH ties all wardens into Morri's plot arc... but we had some of these things before, at the end of Origins.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Good stuff Shiori! Was it a quote from BioWare directly about Morrigan being the most popular?
I 'm just hoping that BioWare realizes part of the reason for Morrigan's popularity is because of her role and interaction with the Warden. She is an awesome character on her own, but its in her relationship with the Warden and with the DR, the OGB and all of those mysteries that makes her truly popular, I think.
So I just hope BioWare doesn't simply bring back Morrigan with no sign of the Warden in DA3 and go " Hey guys Morrigan is back! Isn't that great? Oh, the Warden? Ummm... yeah...not sure what happened to that guy..."
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This, a thousand times over.
As we've said earlier and as is plainly evident to all in this thread- people's enjoyment of Morrigan came from interacting with her via the Warden. Simply placing her into a new setting, I can't see it working. BioWare would have to be supremely short-sighted to miss this though after hitting the mark on a personal level with WH.
What sets Origins apart for any other rpg in the past decade is the depth of character development between the player character and their companions. Once you remove the existing PC from that equation and continue to use a companion you can run into all sorts of problems. The only reason I (and most of you) actually bother to read & write these ridiculously long posts is because we actually do care about the series and want it to succeed. If it falls flat how many years till we get something of Origins' caliber again?
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Kind of figured the Qunari invaded and thats how Hawke gets his title....But while thats kind of interesting, the main reason I'll be playing DA2 is for Flemeth's role and her story and how that could tie in with Morrigan. So long as they're going to string that plot along, thats my primary interest in DA.
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The main reason I'm sticking with it despite the jumping around between protagonists not being particularly to my liking is the Morri/Flemeth arc (aided by the fact that the ball was not dropped in WH). To me, that was the most interesting and enduring aspect of DA:O. Between Gaider and Laidlaw expounding on how DA2 is setting things up for the future I am hoping that they can do justice to concluding Morrigan's story without screwing over Morrigan fans. If the warden isn't involved then honestly, who are they making the "morrigan game" for and what purpose does it serve?
It's a perpetual annoyance because the whole Warden/Morri/Flemeth/Hawke? thing sits on a knife edge, one wrong step and more than one group of fans will be outraged. If Morrigan is the "most popular" then I'd say it's pretty damn important to treat that plot like gold dust and listen to what the fans want.
[quote]Gennojo Ryuga wrote...
Maybe it's not so much out of fear of the chantry but more out of spite/revenge. Maybe the chantry wronged Flemeth a long time ago and as a result she is hell bent on getting payback.
She could also be disgusted with what the chantry represents, but I don't see her as a "FOR THE MAGES" type of person.
Flemeth is driven by her own goals, whether revenge, more power or simply because she can.
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I though Brock's post a few pages back on the Tevinter angle (which also worked in the imagery on one of her grimoires) was the most likely explanation for Flemeth's interest in the Chantry.
In DA2 I also find it interesting the info they've given away so far, we can presume that Hawke did not/can not die if he is to be "the most important person" we also know that he has a hand in bringing down the Chantry. It's interesting that these things are set in stone right from the off...
Modifié par Terra_Ex, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:14 .
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