There's no escaping the ridiculously large posts. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]For today's Morrigan pic, Morri's patience runs thin as her plans for sexytime with the warden are foiled... by Dog.
[quote]ximena wrote...
Terra, I love your screens.
Especially the one she's sitting beside Dog. Yours too Brock. But then all Morri screens are awesome.
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Indeed they are
[quote]ximena wrote...
As for DW Morrigan...........
Hm. I'm glad you like my depiction of her. xD; *resists the urge to say more*
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ximena, you have a keen understanding of the plight of the romancing warden as well as an appreciation for Morrigan's brilliance, 'tis a pleasure to read it, but please - no spoilers. As a side note you also happen to be a very talented artist [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Dog has such a herp derp face- awesome screen with Morri and Dog
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Haha, Dog's just happy to be sat near Morrigan, blissfully ignorant of Morri's torrent of verbal abuse. I made another one since the Morri thread is on the backburner atm [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Right- part of what makes Morrigan such a great romance character is he fact that for better or worse, she is also a plot related character, so romancing her takes the romance (which are generally side quest sort of deals) and sticks that into the main plot really. Like you said Terra, its like BG2 with Bodhi or like KOTOR if you romanced Bastila and all after she goes to the Dark side. I enjoy Leliana's romance fine, but it just lacks that certain gravitas that Morrigan's has due to Morrigan's plot heavy role.
So to just have BioWare ditch the Warden as baggage for Morrigan going forward so she can keep moving along the plot would feel terribly weak and disappointing to say the least.
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Failure to conclude Morrigan's story in a satisfying manner would be more than a disappointment for me Brock and I'm guessing you feel the same way. I've played and enjoyed all the romances in DA but it's the way that Morri's is entwined with the main plot (and the Flemeth sub plot) that sets it apart from the others. It truly is well executed considering it is an optional part of the game. Morrigan's romance thus far at least matches BG2's best, with the difference in graphics, Claudia's voiceover and facial expressions and emotiveness factoring in it's arguably BioWare & Gaider's best work (barring bugs, key scenes that were cut and the fact that it could all be ruined if not concluded properly). Because of the fact Morrigan still has a role to play and that the warden could still play into that equation means it's arguably situated to surpass those that came before it. I did like your ealier adage - Warden or bust, that summarises it quite nicely
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
A million, zillion times YES. Seriously, I think Swoo said it a while back that the end of Origins for the Warden is like ending Star Wars with A New Hope and saying Luke knows all there is to know about the Jedi and call it a day. I mean, (unless you did the US), you're the Hero of Ferelden, the only living Warden to ever survive killing the Archdemon, the only Warden living to have stopped a Blight, but basically a total noob when it comes to any sort of decorum in what it means to be a true, by the letter Warden.
I know Gaider has said that the Wardens' role is to simply stop the Blights, but what do they do in between? We know the Wardens in the Anderfels are de facto rulers up there. I would love to have the Warden get called up to Weisshaupt and have to explain his actions to a panel of Wardens or something. Have the whole range of Wardens, from the duty bound, hardcore Wardens that want to kill Morrigan to some more lax Wardens that maybe want nothing to do with the whole killing darkspawn thing and want to be a Warden for the power that bestows in the Anderfels to maybe Wardens that would be more unconventional and take risks to stop the Blights by allying with the Architect or something. So much potential with the Warden and learning more about the Wardens in general that I think its silly to simply pigeon hole them into only being active during a Blight.
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Swoo made a number of good posts extrapolating on the advantages of the Warden returning. You visit the DA2 forums and it's like the concept of a protagonist appearing in multiple titles and further character development have no chance of success (ignoring such obvious examples as say ME2 or the BG series.) It surprises me when Gaider says stuff like the Wardens are there to combat the Blight, yet despite being a warden, there's no knife to your throat forcing you to answer the call. He does cover his bases I suppose in the PAX Q & A session, but yeah a protagonist jump is usually the easy way out. Morri's words to the Orlesian warden and the Orlesian codex entries do certainly point to a increased grey warden presence in the near future...
Maybe the amount of people who were unhappy with the switch to Hawke for DA2 has laid the groundwork for the warden to return, maybe they were toying with the idea all along, or maybe he's just teasing us with a something that will never be. You can only jump about so much before you have to start giving some answers to the recurring questions and if the person receiving said answers had nothing to do with it to begin with, the answers carry little weight. How does that Awakening Epilogue tie into things though, is it tying with what our theories are on WH providing common ground for all wardens to get involved in the future, he did say that we would find out, but is that going to be a codex handwave or will we see them again...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I really liked that moment with Edric looking on wih Morrigan flying off /images/forum/emoticons/crying.png I always wondered though- how does Morrigan know the DR worked? I mean, did she dust herself off after the big explosion thing and realize "Oh, I've got an Old God soul in my belly now. Kthxbai!"
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Hmmm, didn't she say that the soul would be drawn to her instead, one would assume as a mage of considerable talent (and with her knowledge of the ritual and other blood magic) that she'd know. Yet whatever transpired in the big flash of light when the Archdemon fell apparently none of the other party members caught wind of anything untoward. Perhaps, similarly to how the DR was supposed have actually involved magic (yay for cuts) this was something that got relegated to off-screen interpretation?
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Too true- flustered, jealous Morrigan is the best though /images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png Aimo does a magnificent job with her version of jealous Morrigan:
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Ha, I get the impression that if you started messing around the warden would be kicked to the curb pretty sharpish. But yes, flustered Morri is most amusing , I definitely appreciated the numerous times you get to turn the tables in her word games.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Thats a definite possibility. It remains to be seen how big of a role Flemeth plays in DA2 at least in terms of her interactions with Hawke. WIll she only have a role as big in Origins or larger? How much would she tell Hawke about Morrigan? But you highlighted the problem with the multiple PC approach while still dealing with one storyline- it messes with any ability to roleplay your character honestly, really. I mean when Hawke meets Flemeth, in game Hawke would have no clue who that is, but we sure as hell know who Flemeth is.
It seems that that sort of metagaming if you like, is just going to be par for the course with DA though, especially if they keep switching PCs with every game. On one hand its neat to see things from a different POV and maybe learn things that your Warden might have never had the chance to learn, but still, it will be weird from a dialogue perspective as Hawke first meeting Flemeth would conceivably be all "Who are you!?" yet the player isn't batting an eye, just going "Oh, its Flemeth again..."
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Yeah, the more you jump around the worse it gets, you the player have all this knowledge that you shouldn't have. Moreso since Gaider seems to delight in not concluding plotlines so he can leave the player wanting more. If we get to the "morrigan game" though and get a totally new pc with no sign of any old friends or our warden, I won't know what to say to be honest, it'd be like throwing away all that potential. Meta-gaming conerns aside, what they're doing by switching to Hawke to further the plot and set the stage for future stories is a good thing, provided you conclude things like the Morri plot with the warden, for reasons reiterated several times over across the last few pages.
A lot of it does depend on who the central characters are in DA3 (which depends on the events of DA2), there is a possibility there that the warden has a part to play, and Hawke is obviously involved in Flemeth's side of things. If they build up all these connections between the player character(s) and figures like Flemeth & Morrigan only to throw it all away each and every time, that approach just doesn't feel particularly cohesive to me, if they intend to bring back past protagonists though, it could work... Let's hope that Gaider's words have some weight to them.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I'm guessing any foreshadowing/ build up to Morrigan's plans or her return will sort of become clear perhaps once we see how the Chantry collapses and what Flemeth is up to. Its still not clear in my view what Morrigan's relationship with Flemeth actually is- she obviously fears her, yet at the same time, is her goal to simply kill Flemeth? Or how does the "change" fit in to things?
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I think at least part of her long term goals are to free herself from Flemeth (simply to protect herself) and truly "killing" her is apparently not a task undertaken lightly. Her reasoning for wanting Flemeth dead may have changed by WH though since Morrigan has apparently acquired additional info on Flemeth's identity and plans... IS there a dalish connection there? Morrigan spent time with the dalish, seemed to have acquired two separate books and Ariane clearly has knowledge that is presumably passed down her clan. Did she happen upon information on Flemeth whilst researching the Eluvian, something in one of those books that is passed to the warden at the end of WH... I think the change is something that will likely take place after the events of DA2, from the way Morri talks it sounds like it's important that she's is there when it occurs, imo countering Flemeth likely plays a part, but as you've mentioned it's pretty vague.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
If Morrigan is going to play a big role in the future though, they'll need to at least do enough to keep her absence in the player's mind- whether thats by referencing the Eluvian or via Flemeth or having Morrigan make a cliffhanger cameo stepping out of an Eluvian with Warden and OGB in tow to end the game, who knows...
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Well, if the objective is to retain interest of fans of the Morri/Flemeth/Warden arc then yeah, a few references will have to be dropped. It's the culmination that's important though, as you say if after all this buildup Morri returns but there's no sign of the Warden, bah, it doesn't bear thinking about. I hope that the setup we saw in WH bodes well for the potential return of all wardens.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, well Cassandra is a Seeker/Inquisitor so from one of Gaider's PAX chats he basically said they're like super elite Templars that answer only to the Divine in Orlais. So Hawke has obviously gotten the attention of the very highest levels of the Chantry. I can't help but think it ties back in with Hawke unknowingly helping Flemeth's plans though....
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Morrigan's "plan" was central to quelling the Blight without offing the PC/Alistair/Loghain, whilst also pushing the Morri/Flemeth/OGB plot forward. Presumably Flemeth will be manipulating Hawke in some way to advance her own goals, though we may not find out the real consequences in DA2.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, its been mentioned before, but I wonder to what extent Flemeth is pulling the strings on everything. DId she actually want the Warden to kill her in Origins as a means to further her own plans- effectively pulling off some big Xanatos Gambit?
And certainly I'd hope that our interactions with Morrigan and Flemeth cause for some diverging narrative.
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Definitely, Ariane's comments on the Woman of Many Years having being slain numerous times in the past implies that Flemeth has being involved in significant events in history in the past, as a shapeshifter she could assume any guise so maybe she pulls the recluse card after playing her part in whatever event is happening at the time, idling away hundreds of years till the next major event... Maybe she does gain something by "dying". It's interesting that Flemeth's "death" coincides with a Blight and immediately after it she's taking an active hand in DA2... There's a definite vibe that history is repeating itself, plus Flemeth has at least some prophetic view of the future. We're always being fed tidbits on Flemeth, but never enough to draw a finite conclusion. You either trust Morrigan or not, and even she doesn't have the full story (though she certainly has more knowledge of her than anyone else). Again, it forms part of the reasoning for why I'd always choose to help Morrigan against Flemeth, iirc didn't Gaider confirm that Morri wasn't out to screw you over?
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well I'm guessing Hawke is in Kirkwall when the Qunari invade and thus thats how he gets the name Champion of Kirkwall? A good point though on what that package could possibly be and if thats the catalyst that sets everything in motion...
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Well, it could be nothing or it could be viewed as Flemeth setting Hawke on his march toward destiny, just as she did with the Warden.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Along those lines you have this post by Laidlaw yesterday which among other things (justifying player VO..meh) seems to hint that the world ends up in a bad place at the end of DA2 regardless of what we do- I guess the Chantry crumbling and Thedas plunging into World War is as much a foregone conclusion as killing the Archdemon was in Origin?
[quote]Mike Laidlaw wrote...
1. Look into various posts from Mr. Gaider for details, but effectively what having a voiced character will do is let you hear your character. The writing team's the same, the philosophy's the same, and there's some things we can do with a voiced character (like cutting someone off, or getting involved in debate, or making inspiring speeches) that we simply could not do with a silent character.
2. Make it look and play a lot better. People get pretty riled about "action," but the simple truth is that this is still Dragon Age under the hood, it's just paying more attention. No more silly shuffling into position, no more "lag" as your character takes what feels like forever to fire an arrow of slaying. You want something dead? Your characters will hop to it. And look more stylish in the process.
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Ugh, the DA2 boards, I rarely venture there for 'tis like like a font of idiocy at times. Some of the "ideas" (though you could barely call them that) of what makes a good game are truly frightening. And god forbid you make a reference to Origins, you're practically flayed alive.
But, that aside, and since we do so enjoy the VO debate in the Morri thread, a little interlude:
Regarding point 1 -
On Hawke giving speeches, etc - this is all well and good but you have to consider what you're throwing away when you impose stuff like that on the player. For every gain you get from a VO, you lose something of equal (or greater value) from a silent protagonist.
Take Shepard's pep talk to the normandy's crew when preparing to confront the reapers - he/she has this little speech and the player's total contribution to the whole scene is what exactly? Allowing Shepard to select between two branches at maybe 3 intervals in the conversation. In making the player character give a speech, you are taking a huge amount of control away from the player and likely assuming a great deal, regardless of how BW claim DA2 will track your personality traits choices, its still supposition on the part of the writer's. Alas, those of us who believe this are probably fighting a losing battle and BW won't realise just what a good thing they had with DA:O till it's gone.
Point 2 I can accept now that it's actually been explained properly instead of the "something awesome" mantra which arguably should have remained internal to the dev offices. Certainly you can craft a more satisfactory, engaging and visceral take on combat within the DA realm by removing things like the shuffle effect, no problems with that so long as the tactical side of things remain as is.
On Hawke (and all the companions/plot points) I've no objections to them not revealing too much, as he says spoilers just ruin the experience, but yeah it's interesting that the Chantry's downfall is set in stone from the off. Not that I think this is a bad thing, as allowing "no canon" for everything will result in a plot that can go nowhere and will never have real consequences down the line. The big choice will likely be from when Hawke meets Cassandra (because we know its going to happen) and whatever deal she proposes.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Can we not just skip ahead to the part where the world is in trouble and war's a-coming? With Morrigan, OGB and the Warden to save the day?
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Ah, Brock 'twould be nice but we must first bathe in the glory of Hawke... But yeah, that's the new dream game
Modifié par Terra_Ex, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:48 .
Retour en haut
Though I occassionally let loose spoilers to the people I have on my MSN messenger list. XD
I always wondered though- how does Morrigan know the DR worked? I mean, did she dust herself off after the big explosion thing and realize "Oh, I've got an Old God soul in my belly now. Kthxbai!"
Aimo does a magnificent job with her version of jealous Morrigan:
'd by Ximena!
