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[blademaster7]

Terra_Ex wrote...
There's no escaping the ridiculously large posts. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]For today's Morrigan pic, Morri's patience runs thin as her plans for sexytime with the warden are foiled... by Dog.

Ahaha!

Now we know why she didn't let him enter the mirror.

[Brockololly]

*Casts Resurrect spell on  Morri thread*

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
 For today's Morrigan pic, Morri's patience runs thin as her plans for sexytime with the warden are foiled... by Dog.


[/quote]
Ha- thats brilliant.and such a Dog type thing to do:lol:
Do you make all those in the toolset with the cutscene editor or something, I'm guessing?

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
 Morrigan's romance thus far at least matches BG2's best, with the difference in graphics, Claudia's voiceover and facial expressions and emotiveness factoring in it's arguably BioWare & Gaider's best work (barring bugs, key scenes that were cut and the fact that it could all be ruined if not concluded properly). Because of the fact Morrigan still has a role to play and that the warden could still play into that equation means it's arguably situated to surpass those that came before it. I did like your ealier adage - Warden or bust, that summarises it quite nicely [/quote]
Yeah, if Morrigan's story gets messed up or given short shrift somehow with her and the Warden, maybe it would be myopic to say so, but that would seriously kill my interest in DA for a while, if not alltogether. MOrrigan's story and all of its mysteries is the primary reason I'm following DA2- even though its all but a certainty Morrigan won't be present, yes, I very well may buy DA2 mostly for hints as to where her story may end up in DA3.Hell, thats why I (regretfully) rushed out to get Awakening, hoping for some hint of Morrigan- and all we got there was a borked epilogue slide.
I'm not so worried that Gaider or the writers would mess up Morrigan and the Warden's story, but more like all the other factors which go into making a game end up dictating how Morrigan's story ends up being told. But thats just gloom and doom speculation I'll refrain from^_^


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Swoo made a number of good posts extrapolating on the advantages of the Warden returning. You visit the DA2 forums and it's like the concept of a protagonist appearing in multiple titles and further character development have no chance of success (ignoring such obvious examples as say ME2 or the BG series.) It surprises me when Gaider says stuff like the Wardens are there to combat the Blight, yet despite being a warden, there's no knife to your throat forcing you to answer the call. He does cover his bases I suppose in the PAX Q & A session, but yeah a protagonist jump is usually the easy way out. Morri's words to the Orlesian warden and the Orlesian codex entries do certainly point to a increased grey warden presence in the near future... [/quote]

Oh, the DA2 forums....*sigh*..... The fundamental problem I have with cliffhangers in games or switching the protagonist while trying to set something up for the future is that there is no guarantee we'll ever get to that mythical future game where everything comes together. Its just that for every Mass Effect which was planned as a trilogy from the beginning, you've got stuff like Too Human which bombs. DA seems to be straddling the line between simply having totally unrelated games in the series with new PCs versus having some measure of continuity by keeping old characters around like Flemeth or Morrigan. So if DA2 bombs or EA slashes BioWare's budget for DA3 or they make DA an MMO, where does that leave Morrigan? Its very unlikely those would happen, but at least with ME, we know Shep's story will be resolved in ME3. WIth DA we have no clue even if Morrigan's story will be told in DA3 or if they'll milk it out longer for DA4 and beyond. Thats whats irritating to me.

The Warden has got gas in the tank still and really the only way you could look at Witch Hunt as providing closure is if we never see Morrigan or the Warden again. Otherwise, if Morrigan shows up without the Warden, thats a big WTF moment in my opinion no matter what explanation they may try to give. Hopefully BIoWare realizes that.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Maybe the amount of people who were unhappy with the switch to Hawke for DA2 has laid the groundwork for the warden to return, maybe they were toying with the idea all along, or maybe he's just teasing us with a something that will never be.[/quote]
It will be interesting to see the reception to DA2 from the more hardcore RPG fans versus the ME crowd. I'd imagine its a guaranteed 90+ metacritic from the gaming media based solely on how ME can do no wrong.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
You can only jump about so much before you have to start giving some answers to the recurring questions and if the person receiving said answers had nothing to do with it to begin with, the answers carry little weight. How does that Awakening Epilogue tie into things though, is it tying with what our theories are on WH providing common ground for all wardens to get involved in the future, he did say that we would find out, but is that going to be a codex handwave or will we see them again... [/quote]
RIght- you can provide snippets of information that maybe add another puzzle piece to put down in uncovering the mysteries surrounding Morrigan, but if the whole puzzle is solved by some other new Hero like Hawke or somebody else, it loses all the significance within the game. SUre the player may gasp and be satisifed with finding the answers, but from a RP perspective, the new PC likely wouldn't be filled in on the whole picture. SO you have that disconnect like in KOTOR2 between what the PC knows and can emote  in game versus what the player knows.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Hmmm, didn't she say that the soul would be drawn to her instead, one would assume as a mage of considerable talent (and with her knowledge of the ritual and other blood magic) that she'd know. Yet whatever transpired in the big flash of light when the Archdemon fell apparently none of the other party members caught wind of anything untoward. Perhaps, similarly to how the DR was supposed have actually involved magic (yay for cuts) this was something that got relegated to off-screen interpretation?[/quote]
Yeah it seems Morrigan just disappeared, probably when everyone was recovering from that explosion , Morrigan flew off. Although, what was that big explosion anyway?

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Ha, I get the impression that if you started messing around the warden would be kicked to the curb pretty sharpish. But yes, flustered Morri is most amusing , I definitely appreciated the numerous times you get to turn the tables in her word games. [/quote]
Ha- yeah, Morrigan wouldn't take any carap from the Warden. She'd kick him out and change the locks for sure. And I love those times you can trip up Morrigan in her own wording, something we sadly won't really get to do with a voiced PC and paraphrases and emotion icons

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
If we get to the "morrigan game" though and get a totally new pc with no sign of any old friends or our warden, I won't know what to say to be honest, it'd be like throwing away all that potential.[/quote]
Given how WItch Hunt ends and how each Warden has some connection to Morrigan at this stage, they'd be simply wasting Morrigan's character and her story by tossing in a new PC during the culmination of her plot/story.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
A lot of it does depend on who the central characters are in DA3 (which depends on the events of DA2), there is a possibility there that the warden has a part to play, and Hawke is obviously involved in Flemeth's side of things. If they build up all these connections between the player character(s) and figures like Flemeth & Morrigan only to throw it all away each and every time, that approach just doesn't feel particularly cohesive to me, if they intend to bring back past protagonists though, it could work... Let's hope that Gaider's words have some weight to them.[/quote]
Yeah, bringing back old protagonists could most definitely work. I just hate the notion that it seems BioWare has that they need to jump from new hero to new hero because clearly each PC only has one story to tell. I mean, come on- sure the Warden defeated the Blight but can't major historical figures be involved in more than one major event in history? SO maybe in DA3 the Warden isn't the one taking center stage, maybe Morrigan or FLemeth or the Old God baby is, but that doesn't mean the Warden as PC should be conspicuously absent either.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Well, if the objective is to retain interest of fans of the Morri/Flemeth/Warden arc then yeah, a few references will have to be dropped. It's the culmination that's important though, as you say if after all this buildup Morri returns but there's no sign of the Warden, bah, it doesn't bear thinking about. I hope that the setup we saw in WH bodes well for the potential return of all wardens.[/quote]
The DA universe is interesting and I love the lore and all, but without the characters like Morrigan, the lore doesn't matter much and DA isn't that interesting to me. And with many of the characters, they're interesting because of their relationship with the Warden- thats how the player knows them anyway. So you toss out the Warden but still bring back an old character like Morrigan and you're back at square one.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Morrigan's "plan" was central to quelling the Blight without offing the PC/Alistair/Loghain, whilst also pushing the Morri/Flemeth/OGB plot forward. Presumably Flemeth will be manipulating Hawke in some way to advance her own goals, though we may not find out the real consequences in DA2.[/quote]
True, at the very most basic level, Morrigan is tied to the Wardens for the simple fact that OGB or not she had an interest in preserving the soul of an Old God through a blood magic Ritual via a Grey Warden. Like the Orlesian Warden's codex in Witch Hunt points out, thats good enough reason for LOTS of people to come looking for Morrigan, but especially the Wardens. 
But I'm guessing Flemeth's plans will start up in DA2, what with her leading some kind of mage army from the trailer, but that will just be the beginning of whatever it is she has planned with the big climax probably coming in DA3 (hopefully).


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Ugh, the DA2 boards, I rarely venture there for 'tis like like a font of idiocy at times. Some of the "ideas" (though you could barely call them that) of what makes a good game are truly frightening. And god forbid you make a reference to Origins, you're practically flayed alive.[/quote]
Heh- I only venture into that place to try and elicit comments from the developers. Some sane people dwell there, but not many...

The DA2 forums: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."
/Obi-Wan Kenobi'd:wizard:




[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
 Alas, those of us who believe this are probably fighting a losing battle and BW won't realise just what a good thing they had with DA:O till it's gone.[/quote]
I mean, I know Gaider posted a couple days ago maybe how the speech Alistair or Anora gives in Origins before the battle of Denerim was originally going to be given by the character, yet they scrapped that.  So sure, from a cinematic point of view a voiced PC is good for that, but again like you said, is it worth it? Sadly, it seems most people think RPG just means a game that has dialogue and a story which isn't the case at all....

Not to delve too far off topic but here is a link to an interview with Chris Avellone talking about New Vegas, which *gasp* has a silent PC!

[quote]
What, in your opinion, are the crucial elements for a good RPG these days?



The range of character development and customization, and reactivity to
that character choice and development within the game world. The more
you can do to bring story, world, and characters into the equation, the
better, but ultimately, players want to build the character they want,
customize their character, and then have the world respond appropriately
through dialogue choices, ways to solve quests, or even NPC's reactions
to your character's purple mohawk.
[/quote]

And about New Vegas' ways in advancing the silent PC's dialogue:
[quote]
We added more skill checks for various skills (Barter, Explosives,
Sneak, Guns), displayed the success values for skill checks, added some
stupid-speak at points for low INT characters, and changed the text of
the line if your skill isn't high enough (as an example: adding [Crappy
Speech] "uh... maybe... you'd be making a mistake?" vs. [Good Speech
skill] "You pull that trigger on someone that's got NCR's full support,
you'll be making a mistake.")
[/quote]
To me, having skill based dialogue like that, adds so much more to a gaming experience than having a voiced PC.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Point 2 I can accept now that it's actually been explained properly instead of the "something awesome" mantra which arguably should have remained internal to the dev offices. Certainly you can craft a more satisfactory, engaging and visceral take on combat within the DA realm by removing things like the shuffle effect, no problems with that so long as the tactical side of things remain as is.[/quote]
So long as the combat still feels right on a PC, I'm fine if its more responsive. I mean, playing the battle of Denerim where you swing and miss as a genlock runs by and magically drops dead 10 feet away from you is goofy. So if the new combat tweaks fix that sort of thing, cool. I just hope it doesn't get overly simplified like ME2 with the leveling and skills and all that.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
On Hawke (and all the companions/plot points) I've no objections to them not revealing too much, as he says spoilers just ruin the experience, but yeah it's interesting that the Chantry's downfall is set in stone from the off. Not that I think this is a bad thing, as allowing "no canon" for everything will result in a plot that can go nowhere and will never have real consequences down the line. The big choice will likely be from when Hawke meets Cassandra (because we know its going to happen) and whatever deal she proposes.[/quote]
Yeah, I really don't want any story spoilers. But other stuff like gameplay footage or detailing the various systems is fine and given the changes, would be welcome to hear about.

As for the Chantry crumbling being predetermined, like you said, if that sort of thing happening means a better story then I'm all for it. I prefer on occassion the writers wielding the Plot Hammer or restraining player choice if it means a better story- thats why I hate the ability to kill off so many companions in Origins- given the whole "no canon" approach, at best it relegates those killable characters to cameos down the road.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
Ah, Brock 'twould be nice but we must first bathe in the glory of Hawke... But yeah, that's the new dream game
[/quote]

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 septembre 2010 - 08:14 .

[bl00dsh0t]

Hehe the thread has become an epic exchange of great rants, I approve

The whole issue we are facing in this situation remains to be the voiced protagonist. No matter how I see them trying to bring the warden back it always keeps on being the one cog in the machinery that makes my mind go into warning mode. They would need two voice actors for every race, 6 in total (8 if we factor in that the dalish have a welsh accent now), that would have to do as much if not more work as the person voicing hawke... Well I suppose we will see what happens once TOR comes out since follows a similar model with a voiced protagonist over multiple "origins". Still that is a title with a monthly fee atached and a high likelyhood of success as well courtesy of the armies of star wars fans out there. DA3, where morri's plot is most likely to continue, is largely based off of the success of DA2. This leaves us in a predicament that is most disturbing: What if DA2 gets that illusive 10 million sales figure, creating a massive support for hawke that they just cannot ignore? What then, do we get reduced to scrapping the warden yet again? Will he/she be reduced to a lame cameo in a voice that makes our ears bleed?

Sigh I am SOOO not in hope mode atm ^^

Thus the hope shall be DA2 does very well, but not too well and that the fans keep up the screaming for moar warden. Damn were gonna have to keep this thread going for at least 3-4 years xD

Modifié par bl00dsh0t, 23 septembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Shade of Wolf]

Terra_Ex wrote...

There's no escaping the ridiculously large posts. For today's Morrigan pic, Morri's patience runs thin as her plans for sexytime with the warden are foiled... by Dog.

Tee-hee-hee

[bl00dsh0t]

PureMethodActor wrote...

bl00dsh0t wrote...

Hehe the thread has become an epic exchange of great rants, I approve

The whole issue we are facing in this situation remains to be the voiced protagonist. No matter how I see them trying to bring the warden back it always keeps on being the one cog in the machinery that makes my mind go into warning mode. They would need two voice actors for every race, 6 in total (8 if we factor in that the dalish have a welsh accent now), that would have to do as much if not more work as the person voicing hawke... Well I suppose we will see what happens once TOR comes out since follows a similar model with a voiced protagonist over multiple "origins". Still that is a title with a monthly fee atached and a high likelyhood of success as well courtesy of the armies of star wars fans out there. DA3, where morri's plot is most likely to continue, is largely based off of the success of DA2. This leaves us in a predicament that is most disturbing: What if DA2 gets that illusive 10 million sales figure, creating a massive support for hawke that they just cannot ignore? What then, do we get reduced to scrapping the warden yet again? Will he/she be reduced to a lame cameo in a voice that makes our ears bleed?

Sigh I am SOOO not in hope mode atm ^^

Thus the hope shall be DA2 does very well, but not too well and that the fans keep up the screaming for moar warden. Damn were gonna have to keep this thread going for at least 3-4 years xD

You're completely right. I for one, have been trying to get discussions going on several appropriate threads over who could be voice actors for each race/gender combination. I for one only have a good idea for male elf.

And I seriously hope that DA2 gets success, but at the very most, the same sales numbers as DAO, because anything more than that would mean to Bioware that Hawke is more of successful character than the warden, and that would have me worried as far as Morrigan's story goes. As long as DA2 gets the same, or slightly less, sales than DAO, then I truly believe the Warden will come back for more plot/character development with Morrigan.

Indeed, but the problem is that in the end the question is not whether DA2 outsells DAO or not, but whether it is more profitable or not. And the problem is that DA2 most probably will be more profitable since it has a lower starting investment. I.e. the engine is only a modified version of DA1's and the damn thing did not take over half a decade to make. By any means DA2 has to outsell DAO in order for there even being a chance that the series returns. Investors do not exactly jump on the bandwagon when they see lower sales for the sequell than the original  

To get back to topic before the evil chris appears to strike with the thread closer of doooooom: 

If the chantry now completely collapses in DA2 and flemeth does amass an army of some sort what kind of conflict could lead into the reappearance of morrigan, the warden and the ogb? My somewhat flawed prediction is that it somehow is related to the awakening of the last 2 archdemons at once, that results in thedas being a conflict zone with a handfull of factions: 

Chantry "remnants", flemeths mage army, the qunari, the wardens as well as 2 factions of darkspawn: One led by the two archdemons and one led by the architect, or if the architect was slain his diciple that seems most likely to take over his work (he was mentioned a few times in the architects journals in the silverite mines). The premise would then be to choose the faction to ally yourself with, with the predicament of some of the choices irking morri quite a bit (i.e. flemeth or the chantry, and perhaps the qunari since they are not exactly in tune with morrigans freedom principle ;D)

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Love reading the rants, but boy does my index finger hurt from the mouse wheel. Regarding the return of the Warden I have pretty much given up on that idea would love to eat crow on it though in the future.



My only solace right now is that I went in the mirror with her, so I will at least deserve some recognition or mention. I doubt I will get to "play" as me, but I would certainly like to know that I am actually contributing to Morrigan's plans instead of um well doing dishes and changing diapers in mirror world.

[Barbarossa2010]

@Blademaster, Brock and Terra_Ex:

OFF TOPIC:

Just a few random and barely coherent thoughts since prompted by discussion of New Vegas.

I am so looking forward to FO New Vegas. I finished FO3 (well, if you really can ever finish it) and every shred of DLC and can only say that this is the form of role playing designed for players in my niche (whatever that is): role-playing/obsessive inventory-stats managment AND guns. I was a little disappointed when I had to off my very cool PC at the end for the good of the Wasteland, but it seemed natural; but then viola! in comes Broken Steel and it was good to be Jesus!

I was at first a bit put off by VATS (being a purist and all), but found it quite entertaining once I got used to it. Nothing quite like cinematic head shots. The game confirmed for me the need for a silent PC. Now if Bethesda/et al can integrate a little romance and NPC character development into their games (Fawkes' well of dialogue dried up in about 45 seconds), then I think they might make the "perfect" game. While Bioware certainly has it all over the other guys in this regard, they have a steep learning curve to traverse in order to appeal to their fans naturally occuring heightened expectations for games revolving solely around a story. DA literally has moments of story-telling brilliance (the payoff being, of course, less game) that are shattered by really dumb story elements, plot hammers or glitches that leave you WTF-ing and virtually swearing not to play the next iteration (the problem here for BW is that eventually you will hold yourself to that vow). The methodology they've opted for in game development virtually requires a natural continuity and progression between episodes and they suck so bad at it (well, at least on the DA side of the house). No matter how much they have themselves sold on Hawke, he doesn't fit in with the depth and immersion they seem so resolute in delivering to players yet are so singularly unable to capitalize on. Breaking the continuity between the games is so immersion killing to me and I just don't get this notion of fixing what ain't broke (Warden vs. Hawke). When you have success, you reinforce it. Course changes are too risky with an established player base. So for now, I prefer Bethesda's approach (less story-more game) until BW-DA can get their story-telling s#i+ together.

All I can say, after playing Oblivion and FO3 (by your suggestion BTW), is that my assimilation is complete into the RPG genre. Is this where I have to confess I have over 200 hours in Fallout 3 on a single game and still have stuff to do?

ON TOPIC:

First of all I have to jump on the "there is no Morrigan without the Warden" bandwagon. Seemingly in line with Brock, Terra_Ex and Blademaster, to me it absolutely is a threshold for my participation in the franchise in the future. While there is definitely some resolution to a huge plot issue in WH, Morrigan really doesn't work, in my view, without the Warden. She might have been raised by Flemeth, but she is literally animated (and given substantial meaning in terms the player can relate to) by her time with the Warden.

Morrigan without the Warden is a concept dead on arrival. As I've said before, she is my second favorite character in Dragon Age. But, who she is and how I relate to her is 100% determined by my favorite. In my view the revolving door doesn't work in Dragon Age. The Origins experience was too personal in the interactive sense. Many characters are absolutely forgettable and none of the DLC companions remains in my mind. It is the Warden and his Origins companions that are memorable, and to flush that sort of immediate buy in for a sequel is unfathomable to me. So, we'll see where DA3 goes. DA2 I have no doubt will be interesting and even fun to play, but I predict it will lack the sheer force of impact of Origins and will feel quite meh and anti-climactic by comparison. BTW, I'd love to know the data or telemetry that supports our view of Warden/Origins companions-centric Thedas. I have a gut feeling it is not near as unpopular as we might be led to believe.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 24 septembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[Jarlof Seoul]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Love reading the rants, but boy does my index finger hurt from the mouse wheel. Regarding the return of the Warden I have pretty much given up on that idea would love to eat crow on it though in the future.

My only solace right now is that I went in the mirror with her, so I will at least deserve some recognition or mention. I doubt I will get to "play" as me, but I would certainly like to know that I am actually contributing to Morrigan's plans instead of um well doing dishes and changing diapers in mirror world.

Yeah, my mouse wheel gets some good usage scrolling through this thread too. Concerning return of the Warden (hmmm! now that I think of it, that sounds like a catchy title for DA3), the beauty of the situation is that if things stay as is its cool for the Morri Romancers. If the Warden returns, indeed I'll break out the champaigne.

[MKDAWUSS]

bl00dsh0t wrote...

Chantry "remnants", flemeths mage army, the qunari, the wardens as well as 2 factions of darkspawn: One led by the two archdemons and one led by the architect, or if the architect was slain his diciple that seems most likely to take over his work (he was mentioned a few times in the architects journals in the silverite mines). The premise would then be to choose the faction to ally yourself with, with the predicament of some of the choices irking morri quite a bit (i.e. flemeth or the chantry, and perhaps the qunari since they are not exactly in tune with morrigans freedom principle ;D)

I don't think the Architect's remnants are going to be powerful enough to be their own faction TBQH. I think they'll be on both sides of the Blight - some will be aiding the Darkspawn, and the rest will be aiding the darkspawn's enemies.

If the Chantry splits and there's a massive civil war (and holy war) as a result, and a Blight is added on top of that, it's going to be the 5th Blight + Ferelden Civil War seem like nothing.

[Giggles_Manically]

The devs already said that they wont be following the architects plot line anymore.

It ended at awakening.



For DA2 at least.

[MKDAWUSS]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...


First of all I have to jump on the "there is no Morrigan without the Warden" bandwagon. Seemingly in line with Brock, Terra_Ex and Blademaster, to me it absolutely is a threshold for my participation in the franchise in the future. While there is definitely some resolution to a huge plot issue in WH, Morrigan really doesn't work, in my view, without the Warden. She might have been raised by Flemeth, but she is literally animated (and given substantial meaning in terms the player can relate to) by her time with the Warden.

I think there can be a "Morrigan without the Warden" - some of that may stem from the relative 1SFA of the DR and "The Reunion," along with the Orlesian Warden (let's face it, the Orlesian Warden has hardly any connections to Morrigan in comparison to the Hero of Ferelden) - but it would require a slight change of character, similar to what happened with Oghren in Awakening. While it would show Morrigan's independence (if that's the right word), it would also take away that significant aspect to her that is the Warden (be it romance, friendship, or just someone who's along for the ride).

Morrigan without the Warden is a concept dead on arrival. As I've said before, she is my second favorite character in Dragon Age. But, who she is and how I relate to her is 100% determined by my favorite. In my view the revolving door doesn't work in Dragon Age. The Origins experience was too personal in the interactive sense. Many characters are absolutely forgettable and none of the DLC companions remains in my mind. It is the Warden and his Origins companions that are memorable, and to flush that sort of immediate buy in for a sequel is unfathomable to me. So, we'll see where DA3 goes. DA2 I have no doubt will be interesting and even fun to play, but I predict it will lack the sheer force of impact of Origins and will feel quite meh and anti-climactic by comparison. BTW, I'd love to know the data or telemetry that supports our view of Warden/Origins companions-centric Thedas. I have a gut feeling it is not near as unpopular as we might be led to believe.

I agree that the revolving door of companions is something that's not working anymore, but at the same time, it's something BioWare sort of backed themselves into when you can kill or shoo companions off, becoming a permanent "exit stage left" regardless of what happens to that character or between you and that character. But then again, the only companion characters who still (IMO) have useful screentime would be Morrigan and the monarch of Ferelden (I know Anora wasn't a companion, but...). The remaining LIs might have some, but it'd be more dependent on the Warden than Morrigan and the monarch.

BTW, can the OGB be independent of both Morrigan and the Warden?

[soundchaser721]

PureMethodActor wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

First of all I have to jump on the "there is no Morrigan without the Warden" bandwagon. Seemingly in line with Brock, Terra_Ex and Blademaster, to me it absolutely is a threshold for my participation in the franchise in the future. While there is definitely some resolution to a huge plot issue in WH, Morrigan really doesn't work, in my view, without the Warden. She might have been raised by Flemeth, but she is literally animated (and given substantial meaning in terms the player can relate to) by her time with the Warden.

Morrigan without the Warden is a concept dead on arrival. As I've said before, she is my second favorite character in Dragon Age. But, who she is and how I relate to her is 100% determined by my favorite. In my view the revolving door doesn't work in Dragon Age. The Origins experience was too personal in the interactive sense. Many characters are absolutely forgettable and none of the DLC companions remains in my mind. It is the Warden and his Origins companions that are memorable, and to flush that sort of immediate buy in for a sequel is unfathomable to me. So, we'll see where DA3 goes. DA2 I have no doubt will be interesting and even fun to play, but I predict it will lack the sheer force of impact of Origins and will feel quite meh and anti-climactic by comparison. BTW, I'd love to know the data or telemetry that supports our view of Warden/Origins companions-centric Thedas. I have a gut feeling it is not near as unpopular as we might be led to believe.

I agree with this. For me, the Warden and Morrigan go hand-in-hand. I will be very sad if they don't continue the Morrigan and Warden story, especially if Morrigan returns alone with just footnotes of our Morrigan-romancing Wardens.

The devs have hinted at the Warden returning in the future of the Dragon Age franchise as a presence. Lets keep hoping that isn't just talk and that we see Morrigan and him standing side-by-side upon their glorious return

I agree with both statements, and it seems to me like DA2 is setting up to be the biggest rooster tease in gaming. Right now I'm trying to consider it with the possibility of the warden making a dramatic return in DA3 which might and might not happen. Its incredibly tough to say what will happen after DA2 and the fact is, anything can happen really. They could pull another "gut it " scenario they pulled with DA2 and have a completely different protagonist again although at that point i think it would start getting real redundant very quickly. That being said, I'm glad morrigan won't have a voiced role in DA2. Seeing her with Hawke would just be completely gut-wrenching and thankfully the Witch Hunt ending gave us some closure on that. 

[soundchaser721]

soundchaser721 wrote...

PureMethodActor wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

First of all I have to jump on the "there is no Morrigan without the Warden" bandwagon. Seemingly in line with Brock, Terra_Ex and Blademaster, to me it absolutely is a threshold for my participation in the franchise in the future. While there is definitely some resolution to a huge plot issue in WH, Morrigan really doesn't work, in my view, without the Warden. She might have been raised by Flemeth, but she is literally animated (and given substantial meaning in terms the player can relate to) by her time with the Warden.

Morrigan without the Warden is a concept dead on arrival. As I've said before, she is my second favorite character in Dragon Age. But, who she is and how I relate to her is 100% determined by my favorite. In my view the revolving door doesn't work in Dragon Age. The Origins experience was too personal in the interactive sense. Many characters are absolutely forgettable and none of the DLC companions remains in my mind. It is the Warden and his Origins companions that are memorable, and to flush that sort of immediate buy in for a sequel is unfathomable to me. So, we'll see where DA3 goes. DA2 I have no doubt will be interesting and even fun to play, but I predict it will lack the sheer force of impact of Origins and will feel quite meh and anti-climactic by comparison. BTW, I'd love to know the data or telemetry that supports our view of Warden/Origins companions-centric Thedas. I have a gut feeling it is not near as unpopular as we might be led to believe.

I agree with this. For me, the Warden and Morrigan go hand-in-hand. I will be very sad if they don't continue the Morrigan and Warden story, especially if Morrigan returns alone with just footnotes of our Morrigan-romancing Wardens.

The devs have hinted at the Warden returning in the future of the Dragon Age franchise as a presence. Lets keep hoping that isn't just talk and that we see Morrigan and him standing side-by-side upon their glorious return

Ah crap, double post:(

Modifié par soundchaser721, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:34 .

[Brockololly]

[quote]bl00dsh0t wrote...
 By any means DA2 has to outsell DAO in order for there even being a chance that the series returns. Investors do not exactly jump on the bandwagon when they see lower sales for the sequell than the original [/quote]
Right- given how much time they put into DAO's development, they're planning on swinging a profit in the long run with DA as a franchise- hence probably why DA2 is turning around so quickly.

[quote]bl00dsh0t wrote...
If the chantry now completely collapses in DA2 and flemeth does amass an army of some sort what kind of conflict could lead into the reappearance of morrigan, the warden and the ogb? [/quote]
I'd guess something to do with the Old Gods? Or maybe just something Flemeth does which Morrigan feels she needs to come back to stop Flemeth?

[quote]bl00dsh0t wrote...
The premise would then be to choose the faction to ally yourself with, with the predicament of some of the choices irking morri quite a bit (i.e. flemeth or the chantry, and perhaps the qunari since they are not exactly in tune with morrigans freedom principle ;D)[/quote]
Heh- sounds like that would make a good DA RTS. It seems the world will be at war in DA3, but what that means in terms of the game and Morrigan will likely largely depend on who the PC is.

[quote]Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
My only solace right now is that I went in the mirror with her, so I will at least deserve some  recognition or mention. I doubt I will get to "play" as me, but I would  certainly like to know that I am actually contributing to Morrigan's  plans instead of um well doing dishes and changing diapers in mirror world.[/quote]
Yeah, ideally we'd play as the Warden but at the very least the Warden needs to play some role in Morrigan's final plan and not be written off.

[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
So for now, I prefer Bethesda's approach (less story-more game) until BW-DA can get their story-telling s#i+ together. [/quote]
Yeah, I enjoyed Fallout 3 and am looking forward to New Vegas. At least with Fallout 3 though, the world was fantastic but  I thought the story and characters were entirely forgettable. And yet it seems BioWare wants DA all about the world, like Fallout 3, and are entirely overlooking the fact that its the characters that make the Thedas come alive.

[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
She might have been raised by Flemeth, but she is literally animated (and given substantial meaning in terms the player can relate to) by her time with the Warden. [/quote]
Totally agree, Barbarossa.

Thats the case with Morrigan and all the other characters too- you associate with the characters and companions through the Warden. And with a character like Morrigan, her entire character development is accomplished through the view of the Warden and you take that away and you no longer have the Morrigan that everyone has grown to know.


[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Morrigan without the Warden is a concept dead on arrival. As I've said before, she is my second favorite character in Dragon Age. But, who she is and how I relate to her is 100% determined by my favorite.[/quote]
Spot on.

I don't know that I'd necessarily MOrrigan is DOA without the Warden, but given how things ended in Witch Hunt with the romancing Warden possibly going through the Eluvian with her, to have Morrigan come back with no sign of the Warden just doesn't work. At all. My COusland went searching all over Thedas for Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with her, only to get Plot Hammered off screen, robbing him of being with Morrigan during the biggest moments of her life? Yeah, I'm not buying that. Yet sadly screwing the Warden over like that would be damn similar to BioWare killing off Viconia in an epilogue slide in BG2.

[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
In my view the revolving door doesn't work in Dragon Age. [/quote]
It certainly doesn't work when you have massive, character specific plot threads flapping in the breeze, begging for continuity and conclusion.

[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
DA2 I have no doubt will be interesting and even fun to play, but I predict it will lack the sheer force of impact of Origins and will feel quite  meh and anti-climactic by comparison. [/quote]
Yeah, Hawke's story may end up being good, but like ME with Shep for me, I have the feeling I may enjoy DA2 but it won't stick with me like Origins has. It'll be like a nice summer action movie- all style and fluff with very little substance that while enjoyable is ultimately forgettable.

[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
BTW, I'd love to know the data or telemetry that supports our view of Warden/Origins companions-centric  Thedas. I have a gut feeling it is not near as unpopular as we might be led to believe.[/quote]
I know Gaider posted a little while back on the telemetry data and how they can see who did what in what playthrough and all that. So they know how many people did the US versus DR and all that.  I just hope they take any of that raw data and can make the proper decisions from it and don't somehow misinterpret it. Like I said earlier, BioWare knows that Morrigan is a popular character and knows that people want to see her story and her plans through to conclusion. But its not enough to just bring Morrigan back- everyone's love/hate of Morrigan thus far is through the Warden. And if you bring back Morrigan but not the Warden, BioWare just doesn't get it. Morrigan and her character development is done via the Warden- to finish her story without the Warden playing a role alongside her is just myopic.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I think there can be a "Morrigan without the Warden" - some of that may stem from the relative 1SFA of the DR and "The Reunion," along with the Orlesian Warden (let's face it, the Orlesian Warden has hardly any connections to Morrigan in comparison to the Hero of Ferelden) - but it would require slight change of character, similar to what happened with Oghren in Awakening. [/quote]
For the love of God and all that is holy, please God no. I'm playing through Awakening now and my passionate hatred for what they did to Oghren is just off the charts. If they simplified Morrigan's character like that they no doubt would simply reset her to the purely evil, sarcastic Witch stereotype. And while Morrigan's snarkiness is definitely a reason why I love her as a character, you need that other side to her which she only shows to the Warden to have her the memorable character she presently is.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
While it would show Morrigan's independence (if that's the right word), it would also take away that significant aspect to her that is the Warden (be it romance, friendship, or just someone who's along  for the ride).[/quote]
Exactly. You take out the Warden and you'll be left with a version of Morrigan that isn't necessarily the one we want to see again. It wouldn't be the Morrigan thats fueled this thread to go on for hundreds of pages. In that case they'd be bringing back Morrigan for no one in particular and kill off her character development, IMO.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I agree that the revolving door of companions is something that's not working anymore,  but at the same time, it's something BioWare sort of backed themselves into when you can kill or shoo companions off, becoming a permanent "exit stage left" regardless of what happens to that character or between you and that character.[/quote]
Which is why I hate how you can kill off so many characters in Origins. Couldn't they have just let you injure them badly instead of killing them off often with no consequence? Just seems like a waste really- I'd gladly give up some immediate choice like killing off companions if it meant keeping story options open down the road. Now you basically end up with any killable characters only coming back to establish certain "roles" like Wrex did as Krogan leader in ME2. Unless BioWare wants to sink resources into it, any killable character will never get a unique role or personal character development again in future titles.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
BTW, can the OGB be independent of both Morrigan and the Warden?
[/quote]
Hmmm... assuming its like a normal kid mostly, I'd imagine its like any other kid and won't be able to be independent until its grown up a bit. Which would mean fast forwarding 20 years or so, which isn't something I want in DA3 really.

[quote]soundchaser721 wrote...
I agree with both statements, and it seems to me like DA2 is setting up  to be the biggest rooster tease in gaming. [/quote]
Thats very true- I'm sure Hawke's story will be good, but dammit I'm invested in DA because of Morrigan and the Warden's story.


[quote]soundchaser721 wrote...
Seeing her with Hawke would just be completely gut-wrenching and thankfully the Witch Hunt  ending gave us some closure on that. 
[/quote]
Oh man, yes, at least with Witch Hunt we don't have to worry about Hawke sweeping Morrigan off her feet while the Warden tirelessly and hopelessly searches the ends of Thedas for his lost love. Thank goodness.

Modifié par Brockololly, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Brockololly]

Resurrecting the Morri thread!

Courtesy of Tutchangers on deviantart

Keep it short and simple this time:
At the Eluvian Morrigan says:

"I have gone to great lengths to find and activate this portal. ....But this portal can only be used once more. Achieving even this much was...difficult."

The way she pauses before she says "difficult" makes me wonder if there is anything more to that? I mean, what exactly did Morrigan have to do to activate the portal? I just get the feeling with Morrigan and much of her dialogues that she is making some sort of sacrifice or taking big risks to carry out her plan.

[blademaster7]

@Barbarossa: Glad you enjoyed the games. I can't believe you played  Oblivion, Fallout and Mass Effect only because we told you to. Jesus, man, what the hell have you been playing? CoD? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

If you have a half decent PC you should definitely check out some of the mods of Oblivion and Fallout.

Brockololly wrote...

Wasn't she supposed to toss a fireball at us? Out of character!  SHE SAID NOT TO FOLLOW!

Modifié par blademaster7, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[Skyl4rk]

double post (dammit!)

Modifié par Skyl4rk, 24 septembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Skyl4rk]

Brockololly wrote...


Keep it short and simple this time:
At the Eluvian Morrigan says:

"I have gone to great lengths to find and activate this portal. ....But this portal can only be used once more. Achieving even this much was...difficult."

The way she pauses before she says "difficult" makes me wonder if there is anything more to that? I mean, what exactly did Morrigan have to do to activate the portal? I just get the feeling with Morrigan and much of her dialogues that she is making some sort of sacrifice or taking big risks to carry out her plan.

It could mean a lot of things.  Sacrifice, as you say, is one thing.  Or it could simply be the process of activating the Eluvian is, in itself, difficult. Or maybe "difficult" in a sense that she knows how close the Warden is and there is that conflicting part of her that wants to stay and be with him whereas the other (duty-bound) knows that she has to go through the mirror and shouldn’t wait any longer. She’s come so far only to undo everything she’d worked for because of her feelings for the Warden, and once again she’s in that position where she would have to suppress her emotions…which would be difficult considering how strong they would be for the Warden who romanced her.  So, her saying those words could be a way to further display the change from cold, hardened, cynical Morrigan to the grown little girl with the golden mirror who’s capable of caring for another.
 
Another way of looking at it would be that maybe throughout her whole journey in researching, finding, and activating the Eluvian, she might’ve gained some important knowledge that might’ve unsettled her. Maybe something about the Black City or the Tevinter Mages who entered it?  It really could be anything.
 
I’m actually more interested in where this Eluvian takes you. But if I have to guess, it would be the Mass Effect universe. Morrigan’s duty lies in deciding the fate of Tali’Zora vas Whatevershipsheresidesat.

BTW, congrats on going 400+ pages! Now that's dedication!

[kag666]

It will take me awhile to read 400 pages so sorry if this has been mentioned...

I really liked in Witch Hunt where Morrigan finally kissed my character with closed eyes, I just hope it actually meant she was now fully in love, rather than DA:O where it was a mix of love/just using him for the D.R..

Nice touch Bioware!

[Skyl4rk]

Yes, kissing with eyes open was a bit...creepy. It was kind of like "I'm kissing him but I'm lookin' at you."

[Gennojo Ryuga]

Wow so much to read and so little time



Anybody got an eta for the console patch or does no one know yet?

[Brockololly]

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...
Anybody got an eta for the console patch or does no one know yet?

Last update I saw was from Fernando posting yesterday here. Seems they've submitted the patch to MS and Sony and are waiting to hear anything from them about release dates.

[Gennojo Ryuga]

Thanks Brock, I'll continue to lurk and enjoy the discussion now