Sadly I have no new bespoke Morri pics this time to accompany the wall of text, so you shall have to make do with a generic pic. Savor it and steel yourself for the text that follows.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Ha- thats brilliant.and such a Dog type thing to do
Do you make all those in the toolset with the cutscene editor or something, I'm guessing?
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Aye, all done in cutscenes in the toolset, couldn't think of new one to make in time for today's post though.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Heh- I only venture into that place to try and elicit comments from the developers. Some sane people dwell there, but not many...
The DA2 forums: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."
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Brock, you are the appointed representative of Morrigan (and the warden) on the DA2 boards and I applaud your bravery.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, if Morrigan's story gets messed up or given short shrift somehow with her and the Warden, maybe it would be myopic to say so, but that would seriously kill my interest in DA for a while, if not alltogether. MOrrigan's story and all of its mysteries is the primary reason I'm following DA2- even though its all but a certainty Morrigan won't be present, yes, I very well may buy DA2 mostly for hints as to where her story may end up in DA3.Hell, thats why I (regretfully) rushed out to get Awakening, hoping for some hint of Morrigan- and all we got there was a borked epilogue slide.
I'm not so worried that Gaider or the writers would mess up Morrigan and the Warden's story, but more like all the other factors which go into making a game end up dictating how Morrigan's story ends up being told. But thats just gloom and doom speculation I'll refrain from
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I won't lie, a huge part of my enjoyment of Origins came from Morrigan, from the very first playthrough to my latest. I came to DA:O with no knowledge of it, its characters or world other than BioWare was creating the "spiritual successor" to BG2. That, and BioWare's pedigree as a developer sold me. The Morrigan arc just drew me in immediately and it has become very much a mandatory part of any playthrough and its conclusion and handling to my satisfaction is the deciding factor for me in sticking with the series. Now you can read into that as you like but BioWare can craft as many fantastic characters as they like (and I'm sure they will) but if they fail to properly conclude a significant plotline for a character of Morrigan's caliber then it says something about this particular brand of storytelling in my opinion.
I'll be getting DA2, sure, but at the back of my mind I'll be thinking of ways it ties in with Flemeth & Morrigan, that is the primary draw for me. Once/If they conclude Morrigan's story in a satisfactory manner that doesn't devalue everything Morri-related that came before it then I will be ready to refocus on wherever the DA series is heading, but who knows, part of me thinks its going to be a never ending story.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
The fundamental problem I have with cliffhangers in games or switching the protagonist while trying to set something up for the future is that there is no guarantee we'll ever get to that mythical future game where everything comes together. Its just that for every Mass Effect which was planned as a trilogy from the beginning, you've got stuff like Too Human which bombs. DA seems to be straddling the line between simply having totally unrelated games in the series with new PCs versus having some measure of continuity by keeping old characters around like Flemeth or Morrigan. So if DA2 bombs or EA slashes BioWare's budget for DA3 or they make DA an MMO, where does that leave Morrigan? Its very unlikely those would happen, but at least with ME, we know Shep's story will be resolved in ME3. WIth DA we have no clue even if Morrigan's story will be told in DA3 or if they'll milk it out longer for DA4 and beyond. Thats whats irritating to me.
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You're right on the money Brock, it only takes one failure and the whole ship sinks, along with all the plot lines and characters you're invested. Clearly not a winning situation for anyone - devs nor players. That's why I hope they will deal conclusively with Morrigan in DA3, ie: sooner rather than later. For the moment, they retain your interest on the proviso that Morri will be back, Laidlaw's description of a future game as "the Morrigan one" somewhat implies that it should conclude her role in the DA universe.
As you've touched upon, an underlying issue is the lack of clarity on where things are going, which Gaider seems to revel in, yet causes fans to speculate in a negative way - believing that key threads like Morrigan will white wash their choices in Origins and we'll be a given a new PC to finish up. ME3 will presumably finish Shepard's role, with DA you finish the game with a whole bunch of new questions piled on you in the last few hours of play, then you get the "Hawke 4 DA2!" revelation followed thereafter by WH reinforcing those key DA:O questions and adding new ones. As Morrigan would say, it's maddening. With each branch of the DA tree seemingly pulling in a separate direction - one promising answers, Gaider/WH hinting at possibile continuity of the Warden, DA2 apparently setting the stage for something yet seemingly supporting the idea we'll get a new protagonist with each outing. With seemingly no rhyme or reason, is it any wonder really that we end up with such a pessimistic outlook for the future when talking about DA3 and our fave character, Morrigan?
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
The Warden has got gas in the tank still and really the only way you could look at Witch Hunt as providing closure is if we never see Morrigan or the Warden again. Otherwise, if Morrigan shows up without the Warden, thats a big WTF moment in my opinion no matter what explanation they may try to give. Hopefully BIoWare realizes that.
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I agree, a Morrigan fan could take the WH ending as a good ending if we never see her again (which would likely require DA2 to bomb). There's something about Bioware's current approach that is causing players to think up these doom and gloom scenarios and it shouldn't be that way in my eyes. We shouldn't have to worry about BW handwaving stuff like that, yet past experience deems it the only logical course of action. Bringing Morrigan back without having the warden in the picture would strike me as a very foolish thing to do though, as I'll elaborate on throughout this post.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
And about New Vegas' ways in advancing the silent PC's dialogue:
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We added more skill checks for various skills (Barter, Explosives, Sneak, Guns), displayed the success values for skill checks, added some stupid-speak at points for low INT characters, and changed the text of the line if your skill isn't high enough (as an example: adding [Crappy Speech] "uh... maybe... you'd be making a mistake?" vs. [Good Speech skill] "You pull that trigger on someone that's got NCR's full support, you'll be making a mistake.")
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To me, having skill based dialogue like that, adds so much more to a gaming experience than having a voiced PC.
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Yes, this is exactly the kind of approach we need to propel the silent protagonist forward - diverse choices that are reactive to the player's build. You've mentioned it before Brock, but its nice to be able to read through all the possible choices, each representing the exact line you wish to deliver before making your selection, definitely preferably to the intent icons & paraphrase lucky dip system. It seems a lot of focus is on building up Hawke as badasss (Shepard) rather than supporting RP outside the scope of BioWare's defined "personalities". I think those that strongly advocate player VO as mandatory need to expand their gaming horizons as they don't seem to grasp the limitations it imposes on the choices available to the player.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
As for the Chantry crumbling being predetermined, like you said, if that sort of thing happening means a better story then I'm all for it. I prefer on occassion the writers wielding the Plot Hammer or restraining player choice if it means a better story- thats why I hate the ability to kill off so many companions in Origins- given the whole "no canon" approach, at best it relegates those killable characters to cameos down the road.
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We've talked about the merits and pitfalls of killing companions before and the only definite end result from implementing such a feature is weaker/no plot potential moving forwards. Bearing in mind that once you do kill a companion, it's rare for anyone else to even bat an eyelid so I ask myself if it was even worth implementing.
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Hehe the thread has become an epic exchange of great rants, I approve
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Hmmm, not rants, merely some highbrow observations and hopes for the future
Compared with some of the true rants a few hundred pages back this is pretty easygoing, I'd say.[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote..
If the Chantry splits and there's a massive civil war (and holy war) as a result, and a Blight is added on top of that, it's going to be the 5th Blight + Ferelden Civil War seem like nothing.
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Hmmm, intriguing...
[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote..
BTW, can the OGB be independent of both Morrigan and the Warden?
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OGB independant of Morrigan & Warden could work, as Brock says it would need to be executed much further down the line. However, for the reasons outlined above in the "no-canon" branch, I expect the net effect of OGB will be tied to Morrigan's plot arc though.
[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I was at first a bit put off by VATS (being a purist and all), but found it quite entertaining once I got used to it. Nothing quite like cinematic head shots. The game confirmed for me the need for a silent PC. Now if Bethesda/et al can integrate a little romance and NPC character development into their games (Fawkes' well of dialogue dried up in about 45 seconds), then I think they might make the "perfect" game. While Bioware certainly has it all over the other guys in this regard, they have a steep learning curve to traverse in order to appeal to their fans naturally occuring heightened expectations for games revolving solely around a story. DA literally has moments of story-telling brilliance (the payoff being, of course, less game) that are shattered by really dumb story elements, plot hammers or glitches that leave you WTF-ing and virtually swearing not to play the next iteration (the problem here for BW is that eventually you will hold yourself to that vow). The methodology they've opted for in game development virtually requires a natural continuity and progression between episodes and they suck so bad at it (well, at least on the DA side of the house). No matter how much they have themselves sold on Hawke, he doesn't fit in with the depth and immersion they seem so resolute in delivering to players yet are so singularly unable to capitalize on. Breaking the continuity between the games is so immersion killing to me and I just don't get this notion of fixing what ain't broke (Warden vs. Hawke). When you have success, you reinforce it. Course changes are too risky with an established player base. So for now, I prefer Bethesda's approach (less story-more game) until BW-DA can get their story-telling s#i+ together.
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I'm glad you enjoyed both Oblivion & Fallout 3, they're both great games, I'm looking forward to New Vegas myself, haven't been following it closely though so I hope there won't be any unpleasant surprises.
For me, especially with Fallout 3, they have a great setup with the silent protagonist, but they don't focus enough on the story and companions side of things (both these features were more prominent in Fallout 1 & 2) which makes the inhabitants of the game world pretty much throwaway material. Broken Steel, you're supposed to be a member of Lyon's Pride, but Sarah Lyons spends the duration out cold and the other key squad members are rarely seen.
I believe there was an interview with one of the Fallout 3 devs where they stated it was a mistake to off the PC right at the end (due to the backlash they received iirc) and similarly in DA, whilst I like the way WH ends for Morri romancers, it is hardly a definitive end for *any* warden. It does however provide some hope in that they haven't completely cut it off or kept the warden out, ie: they haven't wasted Morrigan's potential, they have succeeded however in reaffirming the need for the Warden in Morrigan's ongoing story, at least in my eyes.
since we're slightly off-topic, I highly recommend you play Nier, if you enjoyed Morrigan's complexity and snark you'll likely appreciate Kainé, another well written, strong female character - be sure to complete the game at least twice though (you'll see why). The music is absolutely phenomenal as well.
[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
First of all I have to jump on the "there is no Morrigan without the Warden" bandwagon. Seemingly in line with Brock, Terra_Ex and Blademaster, to me it absolutely is a threshold for my participation in the franchise in the future. While there is definitely some resolution to a huge plot issue in WH, Morrigan really doesn't work, in my view, without the Warden. She might have been raised by Flemeth, but she is literally animated (and given substantial meaning in terms the player can relate to) by her time with the Warden.
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This is why I love your posts Barbarossa, you hit all the key points in one fell swoop and don't mince words, another classic post. I honestly don't think I could have put it any better than you have.
I'm with you, for me how they handle Morrigan's future involvement in DA and how they close her arc are crucial factors in determining my continued enjoyment of the series. It's odd that they give us that ending in WH, essentially backing themselves into a corner - if there isn't a good chance of the warden returning? Otherwise I guarantee there will be an explosion of disapproval come DA3.
Don't get me wrong, for now since we got WH, I'll ride the DA2 wave, but as you say things have to come full circle; threads like Morrigan's have to be resolved using the Warden in some capacity - ideally as protagonist but you *might* be able to handle it if they're an NPC, but there would be a lot of pitfalls to consider with that approach.
[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
The devs already said that they wont be following the architects plot line anymore.
It ended at awakening.
For DA2 at least.
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In one of the PAX sessions (the text chat video iirc) Fernando Melo specifically states that some choices are "not meant" for DA2 but may apply in the future. As the only real choice with potential consequences in Awakening, I expect ramifications for that decision will appear at some point... Though as it's just an optional expansion how much of an effect remains to be seen.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
[quote]]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I think there can be a "Morrigan without the Warden" - some of that may stem from the relative 1SFA of the DR and "The Reunion," along with the Orlesian Warden (let's face it, the Orlesian Warden has hardly any connections to Morrigan in comparison to the Hero of Ferelden) - but it would require slight change of character, similar to what happened with Oghren in Awakening.
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For the love of God and all that is holy, please God no. I'm playing through Awakening now and my passionate hatred for what they did to Oghren is just off the charts. If they simplified Morrigan's character like that they no doubt would simply reset her to the purely evil, sarcastic Witch stereotype. And while Morrigan's snarkiness is definitely a reason why I love her as a character, you need that other side to her which she only shows to the Warden to have her the memorable character she presently is.
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^This. Perfectly illustrates why they shouldn't do it. As Brock & Barbarossa stated, it's the interactions with the Warden that make Morrigan who she is, she's defined in our eyes through the warden. Oghren in Awakening was like a completely different character (to the extent that it actually made me start to dislike him).
Characters brought back like that just end up seeming so one-dimensional and as you say it's the warden that elicits the many facets of Morrigan that are hidden beneath the surface - her humor and wit are right up there with Shale and her softer side is only revealed to friends/lover. You need that balance in her character if she's to remain "Morrigan" and you can only have that with the warden.
So, while you "could" push Morrigan's story forward without the warden, the end result will undeniably be a change for the worst, likely utterly destroying everything they created in Origins in the process. It would certainly turn me off to the series moving forwards.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Which is why I hate how you can kill off so many characters in Origins. Couldn't they have just let you injure them badly instead of killing them off often with no consequence? Just seems like a waste really- I'd gladly give up some immediate choice like killing off companions if it meant keeping story options open down the road. Now you basically end up with any killable characters only coming back to establish certain "roles" like Wrex did as Krogan leader in ME2. Unless BioWare wants to sink resources into it, any killable character will never get a unique role or personal character development again in future titles.
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By extension that means that *anything* that has some semblance of player choice attached to it will likely never have a serious impact moving forward, such plot threads continuity and affect on the story will likely be tenuous at best. It's an inherent weakness of "no-canon" and iirc BW/Gaider stated they don't want to focus on developing content that won't be available to all players, hence do choices really matter if we're forever held back by this and the need not to alienate newcomers... Personally I feel that "no-canon" for all simply denies the playerbase at large what could become fantastic plot threads.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I know Gaider posted a little while back on the telemetry data and how they can see who did what in what playthrough and all that. So they know how many people did the US versus DR and all that. I just hope they take any of that raw data and can make the proper decisions from it and don't somehow misinterpret it. Like I said earlier, BioWare knows that Morrigan is a popular character and knows that people want to see her story and her plans through to conclusion. But its not enough to just bring Morrigan back- everyone's love/hate of Morrigan thus far is through the Warden. And if you bring back Morrigan but not the Warden, BioWare just doesn't get it. Morrigan and her character development is done via the Warden- to finish her story without the Warden playing a role alongside her is just myopic.
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The reason I worry is Bioware have missed the mark before and gone of on some bizarre tangent. Take the move from BG and its expansion to NWN and it's expansions. It was like going from pure gold to, well, a less precious metal, a far cry from the splendor of what came before. Meanwhile, right under their noses Mass Effect plods along happilly, utilising the same protagonist and pulling off stuff like LoTSB - would that have worked if it was some other protagonist interacting with Liara - I think not.
Bearing in mind the often strange directions they sometimes go in, I maintain hope and fear in equal measure and the only reason these concerns exist is Bioware creating expectations and then not meeting them. Laidlaw stated people were expecting DA2 to pick up the Morrigan plotline and this is true (aside from the ADHD crowd). If there is a need to "set the stage" so to speak, fair enough but for a lot of people Morrigan forms a fairly large part of their net enjoyment of DA, if it isn't dealt with the finesse it deserves then I'd imagine a fair few of us will be left somewhat perturbed. The acknowledgement of Morrigan's plotline as important and the march toward the disconnected "let's throw away the companions" for each new game are at odds in my eyes.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I don't know that I'd necessarily MOrrigan is DOA without the Warden, but given how things ended in Witch Hunt with the romancing Warden possibly going through the Eluvian with her, to have Morrigan come back with no sign of the Warden just doesn't work. At all. My COusland went searching all over Thedas for Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with her, only to get Plot Hammered off screen, robbing him of being with Morrigan during the biggest moments of her life? Yeah, I'm not buying that. Yet sadly screwing the Warden over like that would be damn similar to BioWare killing off Viconia in an epilogue slide in BG2.
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Morrigan's story concluding without the warden's involvement potentially negates the whole point of WH for all wardens. Look at it this way, at the end of WH, Morrigan warns the warden of Flemeth's impending threat and the change that is coming. If we never see/play as the warden again after this point then what exactly was the point of that - purely a nod toward DA2? Just like how Morrigan leaves with OGB in tow in Origins, the forewarning of Flemeth's future threat demands (or at least signposts) a follow up. So they replaced they Origins cliffhanger with a new one.
The general consensus across the board seems to be that WH is not a finite conclusion to the warden's story and tbh I agree and hope it isn't. Morri romancers are somewhat happy but we're all but convinced that it can't and shouldn't end there, it comes back to the marketing again I suppose, in tandem with the "secrets revealed" it was also touted as "your warden's final quest." Now, that on the surface potentially implies absolute closure, which WH does not provide, it closes the Origins chapter but reinforces the expectation of all wardens still having a part to play. I think that combined with Morri's question dodging are responsible for much of the negative press it attracted. Now, I don't know if WH truly is hinting at the possibility of a return for the warden or if we're just reading too much into it and Gaider's recent comments on the subject, some clarification on just what exactly is in the gift that Morrigan left and whether it's plot relevant would help (again why give the warden a gift if he/she is never to be seen again). If Bioware truly consider WH as the end of the road for Morrigan interacting with the warden and deem it as final closure then they'd wide of the mark imo. Time skips to dance around these problems likewise will not impress me, nor will Morri telling a new protagonist, "'Tis true, I knew the hero of Ferelden, he/she stabbed me." be a satisfactory outcome to the choice in WH.
In literature the end of WH would read to me as "to be continued". In Bioware's current model, who can say.
Modifié par Terra_Ex, 24 septembre 2010 - 10:34 .
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