Waaaa- tons of posts! I actually burned through Awakening over the past couple days. I actually managed to get everyone's approval high and actually finished Oghren's quest despite only getting +5 approval for every gift. I'll just say that burning Amaranthine and saving Vigil's Keep is 10000X more epic than saving Amaranthine. Totally killed the Architect too- my Samuel Cousland was getting all broody and nasty without Morrigan
Oh and random Morrigan observation while messing around in the toolset. I never realized that Morrigan's purple eyeshadow is actually a type of tatoo in the toolset. Its just funny as it looks very strange when you try to give Morrigan a different hair style the purple tatoo really becomes apparent.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The Morrigan arc just drew me in immediately and it has become very much a mandatory part of any playthrough and its conclusion and handling to my satisfaction is the deciding factor for me in sticking with the series. Now you can read into that as you like but BioWare can craft as many fantastic characters as they like (and I'm sure they will) but if they fail to properly conclude a significant plotline for a character of Morrigan's caliber then it says something about this particular brand of storytelling in my opinion. [/quote]
Absolutely. Just having gone through Awakening, something just felt empty about it. The characters weren't bad, but none of them had the depth of Origins and too often came off as imitations. Velanna for instance, while she clearly is not like Morrigan in many ways there are a lot of similarities in how she was written and portrayed- token skimpy clothing female mage, bit of a misanthrope, same hair, has a hard exterior that Nathaniel tries to pick away at, is mindful of her ears looking clownish (like Morrigan and her nose).
But like you said Terra, BIoWare can make great characters, but if they're just going to leave them hanging or not bother to give their storylines any proper conclusion, why should any of us bother getting invested in them?
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'll be getting DA2, sure, but at the back of my mind I'll be thinking of ways it ties in with Flemeth & Morrigan, that is the primary draw for me. Once/If they conclude Morrigan's story in a satisfactory manner that doesn't devalue everything Morri-related that came before it then I will be ready to refocus on wherever the DA series is heading, but who knows, part of me thinks its going to be a never ending story.[/quote]
Yeah, I will definitely be breaking down every scene looking for some Morrigan related clue. Hell, I got giddy finishing Awakening yesterday and getting the Morrigan epilogue slide. Like you said though, they have to finish Morrigan and the Warden's story in a way that doesn't crap all over what they've established so far. I've said it before but I'll say it again, I'd just hate to see them go with some generic Morrigan for ease of use like they went with deadbeat Dad Oghren in Awakening.
As for it being a neverending story deal, if the Warden and Morrigan survive whatever it is she has planned, having them go off into the sunset together or go back through the mirror together again would be fine. Its just when the endings are relegated to epilogue slides and throw in gotcha moments that irritate me.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
That's why I hope they will deal conclusively with Morrigan in DA3, ie: sooner rather than later. For the moment, they retain your interest on the proviso that Morri will be back, Laidlaw's description of a future game as "the Morrigan one" somewhat implies that it should conclude her role in the DA universe.[/quote]
Exactly- I know Gaider is fond of saying that closure is for suckers and he likes to leave the story with people wanting more, but there is a difference there. If they just keep milking out MOrrigan's story people will stop caring. Hell, I'd imagine a chunk of people got sufficiently ticked off with the lack of answers from Morrigan in Witch Hunt and have stopped caring. You can only dangle that carrot in front of the player only to yank it away at the last second before the player just says "Screw it." While I'm sure DA2 will be a good game on its own right, I'm mostly playing it with the notion that we'll get more Morrigan down the road, not because of anything BioWare has said or released about the game thus far.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
With seemingly no rhyme or reason, is it any wonder really that we end up with such a pessimistic outlook for the future when talking about DA3 and our fave character, Morrigan?[/quote]
No, not at all. The whole thing is that if BioWare has some roadmap or outline of where they want to take things and DA2 is a necessary stop along the way towards something grander, then by all means. So long as the stories that branch out come back to some common place sooner rather than later, then fine. But if by doing new PC each game type stories is going to simply allow for massive plot threads dangling or ignored alltogether in future installments, then I don't care for that sort of approach.
If we knew that DA3 would conclude Morrigan's major storyline in DA, then I would enthusiastically buy DA2 and preorder DA3 right this second. But besides vague assurances, we have no clue what they're going to do next- maybe after DA2, they get a new idea for the PC to be Falcon and put off Morrigan's story for some other future game. Thats what I want to avoid- my patience is stretched with DA2 as is. Now of course BioWare can make any game they want, but it would be nice if they get to the payoff with Morrigan's storyline sooner rather than later- the longer they wait, the higher expectations get, whether thats their fault or not.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
You've mentioned it before Brock, but its nice to be able to read through all the possible choices, each representing the exact line you wish to deliver before making your selection, definitely preferably to the intent icons & paraphrase lucky dip system. It seems a lot of focus is on building up Hawke as badasss (Shepard) rather than supporting RP outside the scope of BioWare's defined "personalities".[/quote]
Yeah, it just seems as if the player VO is a step backwards for actual gameplay and roleplaying. And the whole fact that Hawke will be pigeonholed into sarcastic, aggressive or diplomatic is a step back- even if those personality types were present but just hidden behind the scenes in DAO, it gave the illusion of greater choice with the silent PC and text lines. Instead with DA2, you're just bringing the mechanics into daylight reminding everyone that you're playing a game, which hurts immersion IMO.
I guess it comes down to player choice versus presentation. DO you want greater choice in the game but have to use your imagination? Or do you want to be spoon fed your game/movie because you can't be bothered to read and need shiny icons to make up your mind?
Its like I brought up to Gaider in
this thread from a little while ago: How can people in the video game industry know that a more "old school" game like BG2 wouldn't sell well, when nobody is making that kind of game? Origins was as close to an old school BioWare RPG as we've had for a while and by most accounts was well received critically and commercially. So why not head more in the old school direction instead of the ME direction?
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Bearing in mind that once you do kill a companion, it's rare for anyone else to even bat an eyelid so I ask myself if it was even worth implementing.[/quote]
Right- "Oh you just murdered Leliana and Wynne at the Ashes! Oh, nobody is going to say anything? Guess I'll just loot their corpses and be on my merry way!"
/facepalm
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
OGB independant of Morrigan & Warden could work, as Brock says it would need to be executed much further down the line. However, for the reasons outlined above in the "no-canon" branch, I expect the net effect of OGB will be tied to Morrigan's plot arc though.[/quote]
I wouldn't mind that if Morrigan and the Warden's role in the DA universe conludes ina satisfactory way in DA3, then let the OGB stick around to play a role. Sadly though, the whole OGB is optional from the start so who knows how much of a role he'll even play in the first place.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
It's odd that they give us that ending in WH, essentially backing themselves into a corner - if there isn't a good chance of the warden returning? Otherwise I guarantee there will be an explosion of disapproval come DA3. [/quote]
Exactly- I justhope the WH ending wasn't just BioWare throwing Morrigan romancing Wardens a bone to go shut up so that come DA3 time they can come up with some reason why the Warden can't be there, simply so they don't have to deal with all the results of a "no canon" approach. You would think that given Witch Hunt's ending especially with the Morrigan romance, that the Warden would play an important role in anything regarding Morrigan in the future. But who knows? DA3 is a looooooooong ways away. For all we know something in DA2 may shake up all of our little DA3 speculation plans.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
In one of the PAX sessions (the text chat video iirc) Fernando Melo specifically states that some choices are "not meant" for DA2 but may apply in the future. As the only real choice with potential consequences in Awakening, I expect ramifications for that decision will appear at some point... Though as it's just an optional expansion how much of an effect remains to be seen.[/quote]
But that has me wondering though too. Really, Witch Hunt is an optional DLC too. So what does that mean, if anything? Its stuff like that which makes me hope BioWare knows what they're doing going forward and with the import system. What if some guy that romanced Morrigan but never played WH imports into DA2 and to DA3 where lets say Morrigan returns? Does that meanBIoWare comes up with default choices if you're missing DLC or what?
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Characters brought back like that just end up seeming so one-dimensional and as you say it's the warden that elicits the many facets of Morrigan that are hidden beneath the surface - her humor and wit are right up there with Shale and her softer side is only revealed to friends/lover. You need that balance in her character if she's to remain "Morrigan" and you can only have that with the warden.
So, while you "could" push Morrigan's story forward without the warden, the end result will undeniably be a change for the worst, likely utterly destroying everything they created in Origins in the process. It would certainly turn me off to the series moving forwards.[/quote]
Bingo, Terra. They most certainly could bring back a generic, noob friendly Morrigan sans Warden, but that wouldn't be the Morrigan I'd want to see back in DA. I'm sure they could come up with some good storyline with her alone, but I'd only be marginally interested in it since my emotional investment in Morrigan's story is through the Warden. Basically, you bring back Morrigan but not with the Warden is some way, then what was the point of bringing Morrigan back anyway, especially given how WH can end?
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Personally I feel that "no-canon" for all simply denies the playerbase at large what could become fantastic plot threads.[/quote]
Unless BioWare really devotes the resources to that sort of thing, the whole non canon approach just results in shallow game with little consequence. That said, I'm hoping the framed narrative with time jumps will help DA2 in that regard in seeing meaningful consequences of Hawke's actions. But still, how much of an effect is Hawke even having if we know the game ends with the world at war and the Chantry crumbling already?
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The reason I worry is Bioware have missed the mark before and gone of on some bizarre tangent. Take the move from BG and its expansion to NWN and it's expansions. It was like going from pure gold to, well, a less precious metal, a far cry from the splendor of what came before. Meanwhile, right under their noses Mass Effect plods along happilly, utilising the same protagonist and pulling off stuff like LoTSB - would that have worked if it was some other protagonist interacting with Liara - I think not. [/quote]
Exactly- I can remember finishing up BG2 and Throne of Bhaal and then seeing what BioWare was working on next, Neverwinter Nights. "Oh its primarily a multplayer game? Huh..." I know many people liked NWN for the modules but even if you got into the single player campaign, they went off in a different direction with the first expansion then seemingly tried to tie things back together in the second expansion, what with Aribeth being dead and all. Thats my concern with DA- that in order to get that continuity with certain characters between games, the character development you've built up gets Plot Hammered or marginalized to fit the story of the new game.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
If there is a need to "set the stage" so to speak, fair enough but for a lot of people Morrigan forms a fairly large part of their net enjoyment of DA, if it isn't dealt with the finesse it deserves then I'd imagine a fair few of us will be left somewhat perturbed. The acknowledgement of Morrigan's plotline as important and the march toward the disconnected "let's throw away the companions" for each new game are at odds in my eyes.[/quote]
Heh- "somewhat perturbed." There will be full on nerd rage if unsavory Warden/Morrigan shenanigans goes down. I think it all comes down to how much resources BioWare puts into maintaining Morrigan as a result of our choices in Origins and WH. Do they continue that thread or do they only tenuously touch on it while endorsing some generic version of Morrigan for sake of keeping things accessible to new players?
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
If Bioware truly consider WH as the end of the road for Morrigan interacting with the warden and deem it as final closure then they'd wide of the mark imo. Time skips to dance around these problems likewise will not impress me, nor will Morri telling a new protagonist, "'Tis true, I knew the hero of Ferelden, he/she stabbed me." be a satisfactory outcome to the choice in WH.[/quote]
Precisely, Terra. The reviews from most major reviewing outlets pretty much universally blasted Witch Hunt, in large part because the heavily advertised part of the DLC-Morrigan- was only in it for about 5 minutes. And she pretty much evaded all of the supposed answers we were supposed to have coming. So especially if you didn't romance her, the whole thing plays out like a $7 commercial/teaser for DA2.
The consequences of dealing with Morrigan, whether it be her romance, friendship or stabbing her, NEED to be dealt with ny the Warden directly involved in those things. If we simply see the version of Morrigan thats been affected by those things but not through the eyes of the Warden, thats just sucking the life out of her story, IMO.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote..
My current mockup looks pretty nice, Morri closes her eyes as she leans in and opens them slowly as they end the kiss. I'm gonna adjust the skeleton's a bit in Max before releasing it otherwise Morri's arm clips through massive armor shoulders (probably the reason why they cut the animation short in vanilla). I also have some nice ideas for some new kiss variants for Morri so I might give that a shot when I get the chance.[/quote]
Nice! Sometime before DA2 comes out I'll have to try a full rogue playthrough so I'll have to use your updated version then.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
But anyway, they left Dog behind for a reason .
[/quote]
You know its sad- assuming Mabari's only live a normal dog's life time, if Morrigan and the Warden are gone for about 8 years or so, Dog might be dead by the time they return! And the Warden didn't even say goodbye!
[quote]lilmeezer wrote...
Here's the link: Under the Stony glare of Eleni Zinovia
And the relevant info in the post (emphasis added is my own):
[quote]SirShreK wrote...
This Woman knows what the future holds. One can assume that she does not lie.
She fortells the Change that Morrigan warns the Warden of , in a manner not unlike Cassandra. She also cryptically signifies that the Veil tears in the Circle basement are caused by something much more dangerous than simple chance.
Furthermore she clues in to the idea that a Maker deity may in fact exist!
"Weep not for me, child. Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And thus shall I endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again."
Any thoughts and theories out there about what she means by the change?
[/quote]
Responses from the Dev's:
[quote]Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Good catch, SirShrek.
I'll give you this: there's something to Eleni's prophecies. They're not completely random. What she's talking about, though? Well...you'll have to wait and see.[/quote]
and
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]Dr. wonderful wrote...
She CAN predict the future, and she sees something that will rock Dragon age to the core.
[/quote]
Well, they
could just be vague predictions that a writer tossed in there which could potentially be ascribed to
anything in the future. Which makes us look prescient, like we had it planned all along.
Or it could be about
something specific. And you will see Eleni again.
Scary, huh?
[/quote]
And of course, Gaider wouldn't share more:
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Tell me at least that Morrigan's whole "change" speech was actually alluding to something specific we'll hopefully be seeing in a future DA game and not just vague prophecy speak #503 that can be attached on to anything in the future?[/quote]
I could tell yout that, but would you believe me? I could just be patting you on the head and whispering sweet nothings in your ear so you'll bring me a cookie. You got nothin'.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Heh- yeah, that statue is up to something. The dialogue she has in Witch Hunt goes like this:
"The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The shadow will consume all." So, was she simply referring to the Tears in the Veil? Maybe some of the Change coming to Thedas has to do with something like merging the Spirit world of the Fade with the earthly world of Thedas, so that the Maker's worlds are unified? Thats pretty far fetched but you never know. Or the "darkness" being mentioned is Flemeth's true form- something worse than a mere abomination?
[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
I mean, am I completely crazy here, or is my viewpoint on the romance just as valid as others? Are the reasons for my viewpoint legitimate or am I some freak who needs to take his appreciation of Morrigan elsewhere (joking about that, I'd still obviously support Morrigan here, I just wouldn't bring this up again if I was shut down).
[/quote]
Morrigan is obviously a very independent strong willed woman, but at the same time, she is very much stunted emotionally. So part of it I think is that sure, on the surface she is the tough woman that can deal with everything herself . She likes dictating terms to the Warden, giving him the ring and potentially rescuing him from Fort Drakon. The thing is though that for her whole life, that survivalist, hard edged mentality was forced on her by Flemeth and hse hasn't had the chance to realize other aspects of her inner self- sort of the fogotten girl with the Golden Mirror.
So while in many ways Morrigan sort of wears the pants in the relationship, its not one sided. On the contrary, Morrigan likes it when the Warden teases her right back and is the whole "miserable bastard" routine.There is certainly a bit of the whole damsel in distress element- having to saly a dragon (Flemeth) to keep Morrigan safe. And certainly Morrigan does not want a one sided relationship- she views it as one between equals.
So I guess, I'd say its not a relationship thats clear cut one way or the other. Part of Morrigan is the emotionally unsure girl with the Golden Mirror thats discovering the world for the first time and still enthralled with shiny baubles. Thats the more vulnerable Morrigan, the more human Morrigan with doubts and flaws, the Morrigan that needs the Warden to rescue her from her evil dragon Mother Flemeth. That Morrigan is the one the Warden only sees when she has let her guard down. Then you've got the armored up Morrigan thats been taught everything by Flemeth, stating that survival has meaning, power has meaning yet love is a weakness, despite never having loved before that point so she is simply regurgitating Flemeth's indoctrination. Yet, in the end , Morrigan is a duty bound person with the DR and proves that even though she is in love with the Warden, she has to do something important to her even if it means forgoing her personal desires to be with the Warden. But of course all seems to potentially end as well as hoped for that realtionship in WItch Hunt.
But this all just gets back to what Terra and others have said- the Morrigan the Warden knows, the one that lets her guard down, is only known to the Warden. It would be a shame if that character development is dropped going forward by kicking the Warden off of the stage.
Modifié par Brockololly, 27 septembre 2010 - 02:33 .
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