AlanC9 wrote...
Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I have argued for months that my real issue with the game was that my Warden was forced so violently out of character at the DR,
You never answered my question in the other thread, or if you did I missed it. How exactly is your Warden forced out of character? I guess I wasn't around when you were pushing this idea intensively. Pity we can't search the way we could on the old board.
And how come you say...
.. just chump time or sacrifice your Warden. Just two sh!++y choices.
I had more choices than that, and presume you did too. Not necessarily any better than the ones you mentioned (depends on your Warden), but why be misleading?
I hadn't realized you had asked a question. I obviously missed that and you have my apology.
This sounds like a lead-in of the thousands that have hammered on blademaster and myself because we dare to possess a heretical view from community orthodoxy and; up front, I have to say that accusing a player of “misleading” on this board is a bit like handing out traffic tickets at the Daytona 500. I fail to see the point in an accusation as such, but I’m willing to see where this goes.
Having said that; first of all, there is no intent to mislead. If you dislike my comments or are suspicious of my intent, then that may have more to do with the fact that we have never spoken to each other than anything else. I use an economy of words at this point (we are 40 pages into a combination mod/rant thread after all) since primarily I have been speaking to the same four or five players for months now, so I don’t feel the need to explain any single idea in depth (having already done so ad nauseum), assuming they understand my meaning and nuance.
Secondly: Technically you are correct, there are other choices, but as you have stated they are “not necessarily any better” unless of course one thinks that letting a woman you are supposedly romancing, sleep with another man is a valid choice; that was just not an option for my Warden. If there were choices other than these, then my failure to mention them was merely an oversight probably due to them being unremarkable, rather than any intent to mislead.
I will try to recap much of what I've shared with these same individuals for months now, so let me bulletize for expedience.
-Morrigan presents you with a very speculative ritual to spare your life, and has withheld that information for very weak and unrealistic reasons imo. “Would you have believed me?” Um, yes as a matter of fact my Warden would have.
-Said ritual will attract the “essence” of the Archdemon.
-My Warden was stone cold Grey Warden in personality. At first very reluctant, tormented to leave his family to die, but later turned that energy into vengeance and became a hardcore Warden ideologue.
-My Warden was not well versed in the ways of magic and lore.
-Morrigan, while well on her way to becoming human, had not earned the level of trust required to ask for such a thing. Killing Flemeth was a big request and my Warden reluctantly did it, but still didn’t know if he had done the wrong thing or not. He felt like she had used him, but would wait and see.
-My Warden had well proved himself to Morrigan, but not vice versa.
-Morrigan was unstable in character and emotion in the view of my Warden. As you well know, that does not preclude one from loving them, but it does cause one to be suspicious of that person’s intent in any given situation. To wit:
*For all of Morrigan’s talk of freedom, she had to qualms whatsoever in enslaving elves.
*Her lack of contact with the concept of familial love was most disturbing, but you did see her at least questioning it. She didn’t seem convinced however, at the point of the DR.
*Survival and power trumped romantic/familial love (as far as you knew at the point of the DR).
*Her background in general bred her to be self-interested and thus, seemingly unreliable at the point which that might be threatened.
*She, more often than not, missed the big picture in building an alliance in favor of rushing in to complete a mission, ill-prepared or not.
*She was impetuous to the point of flaw.
-In my Warden’s opinion, she had not overcome these character flaws, but he was beginning to love her because he had watched her trials and growing pains.
The Ritual:
-Options available to the Warden throughout the game, mysteriously dried up at the DR.
-The Ritual seemed something nearing sinister to my Warden.
-Morrigan’s was in essence asking my Warden to be complicit in attracting the essence of the very thing he was sworn to destroy (for all he knew-and she wasn’t going to let him think otherwise apparently). (Not realistic).
-Morrigan felt she owed no explanation beyond platitudes or ambiguity. (Out of character-not realistic)
-No where are you given the choice to press Morrigan for information a Warden would demand to know. (Out of character).
-No where are you allowed to persuade or intimidate. (Out of character).
-What information she does give are half answers, and all my Warden knew was that he was not going to get the answers he needed, “love” or not, and the Plot Gods spoke and deemed that he wasn’t allowed to press her at all. (Out of character)
-Failing all checks at getting any real answer that would matter, Morrigan forced my Warden to fall back on what he did know. He thought what Duncan would do in his situation. He came to the conclusion that Duncan would have been appalled at him doing this thing with so little information and her skirting the few feeble attempts at find out relevant information.
-Instantly my Warden saw her as a threat (he really didn’t trust that whole Flemeth thing anyway and she wasn’t saying anything to really convince him; and he thought he was owed that for the request being made). (Out of character and unrealistic)
-He knew he would have to slay her to prevent the Blight from becoming worse (she didn’t say anything convincing enough to persuade him and he wasn’t allowed to ask). Out of character.
-Then…nothing. Bye-bye, do it, or have Alistair/Loghain do it. If you choose to sacrifice, you get to watch her leave safe, sound, and smirking.
-Warden remains silent, too sheepish to ask real questions. He looks like a chump doing it with so little knowledge of what he’s getting into-and she doesn’t have to tell…(Out of character)
-No shield bash, no war cry, nothing…(Out of character)
-That Morrigan would trust my Warden exclusively to deal with her mother, but not with the knowledge of her grand plan just didn’t ring realistic to me.
-Her departure (if you choose sacrifice) proves she did not love him, not in any real sense at least. Not one thing can I, as a player, imagine that warranted her walking away (she trusted him to deal with Flemeth after all) at that point and leaving her “love” to die, when she could have easily come clean, saved her Warden and gotten what she wanted; unless of course her intent was evil-but again, while all arrows pointed to her less than selfless intent for my Warden, she skates away freely. (Not realistic).
In summary, my Warden would not have stood idly by, while she hatched a plan to extend the Blight for her purposes of gaining power. Therefore he was forced out of character to appease a plot hook.
Now if you are one of the legion of players that is of the opinion that the choices were spot-on and realistic in the DR then us arguing interpretive opinion based on an extremely ambiguous plot line is really not going to produce much. But in the end, all either of us possesses is merely an opinion and the plot gods are going to do as they please, probably to the glee of the more orthodox base.
BTW, DA:O was my first RPG (shooter background) and I speak from a more populist viewpoint than hardcore RPG or dark fantasy fans. I can only tell you why the game left me flat from what would have otherwise been a great experience. I have no expereine from BG or NWN, or even KOTOR to compare it to.
Mass Effect is turning out to be more to my expectations.
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