16183 réponses à ce sujet

[UFOash]

MoSa09 wrote...

I have my doubts Morrigan can shapeshift into a dragon. Shapeshifting, as far as we know, includes studying the creature you want to turn into. So, to shapeshift into a dragon, Morrigan would have need time to study a dragon. And given her surprise and her intial reaction throughout the game when you first meet one, i doubt she has done that, either with her mother in dragon form or any other dragon. I have no doubts she is capable of that, but its not just about magical powers but opportunity.

Okay, its doubtful Morrigan can turn into a dragon I said that myself, my point was that its just as possible Morrigan is mascarading in a different form as it is for Flemeth, even if Morrigan's shapeshifting abilities are less than Flemeths she has no doubt studied Humans so by that theory Morrigan could very well be using a fake form.

Morrigan herself also talks about "batting her eyelashes" to get what she wants I'd like to believe Morrigan has a soft centre but if she were to turn out to have some sinister plans I can imagine many of the Warden characters would be in some real trouble & would walk right into it.

MoSa09 wrote...

Morrigan never advised immoral things. She advised things that sound cruel to use but make perfect sense. Abandoning Redcliffe sounds cruel, but you and Alistair are human beings, they could cannot reload and are the two remaining Wardens that need to save all of Ferelden. So while leaving Redcliffe to die might sound cruel, but in the longrun, you could save more lifes doing so than if you fight and die there. Almost all her points are like that. Hard choices, but not immoral. Of course lying is not beyond her, but well, look at your party. When it comes down to lying, she is by far not the only one who is lying to you.

Course Morrigan is no saint, but as said above, she is not cuel or immoral. Her whole romance is a matter of trust, and i trust her more than i do trust Flemeth. 

I think (don't hold me to this though) that she approves of the blood ritual in the alienage (sacrificing elven lives for increased constitution) which I would consider both immoral & unnecessary to her or the wardens ultimate goal.

Morrigan differs from other potential liars in the party (like Zevran) because she clearly has some kind of big thing coming in the future, I highly doubt Zevran (or any of the others bar the Warden) can have effects as large as the likes of Old God's & immortality.

Personally, in my main playthrough I didn't accept people I thought were immoral (like Sten).

MoSa09 wrote...
For all its worth, we awoke in Flemeth hut and Morrigan told us Flemeth saved us. And she only told the tell Flemeth told her. I agree its unlikely, but Flemeth being one of the Tevinter mages who were turned into Darkspawn when entering the black city could as well turned into her real form and told her dumb brothers to let us go and told Morrigan some lies about what happened when returning.
As said, unlikely, i just wanted to make a point that we do not really know if and how Flemeth rescued us, and i seriously doubt she did it just because she was concerned about the fate of the world. Morrigan might be lying to us, but Flemeth is playing even more sinister tricks with us, and the poor old hag living in the swamp and just wants the Darkspawn defeated to live in peace is something i do not buy.
 

Well we survived Ostagar, Morrigan didn't take credit for anything & we awoke in Flemeth's hut.
Either Flemeth saved us or someone willing to get us for Flemeth & give her the credit did, the Darkspawn don't take live prisoners.

I agree we know so little about Flemeth that practically an of these important tales could be her, but my point was just that we really no little about Morrigan too.
With Flemeth "dead"/gone we have no-one to confirm anything Morrigan says about herself or her goals.

We also have no idea why this Old God has been concieved.
Morrigan states that her mother sent her for it, whether true or not she hates & "killed" her mother so clearly this kid is important to her.
The Old God child could reveal alot about Morri/Flemeth, as I said I don't know what shes says in WH but with Flemeth's grimoires and an Old God child Morrigan could do crazy things (e.g. she could use Flemeths ritual for taking a childs body to control this old god).

Morrigan could also just be hoping to raise this child as normal, I'd like to think Morrigan has something nice to her but I can't imagine Morrigan "settling down".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
I'm just rambling now- there is one other picture I'll post:

Probably just artistic nonsense, but notice the feathers on the left. Who else wears feathers? Morrigan, and in DA2 Flemeth. What that means, if anything? I have no clue.

Those feathers are peacock feathers that are usually used to symbolise hubris, which is what supposedely caused them to turn into darkspawn. That'ss how I interpretted it anyways. 

[UFOash]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
I'm just rambling now- there is one other picture I'll post:

Probably just artistic nonsense, but notice the feathers on the left. Who else wears feathers? Morrigan, and in DA2 Flemeth. What that means, if anything? I have no clue.

Those feathers are peacock feathers that are usually used to symbolise hubris, which is what supposedely caused them to turn into darkspawn. That'ss how I interpretted it anyways. 

I thought he was referring to the feather things on the lower-left womans arm.
Didn't even notice the peacock feathers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
I thought he was referring to the feather things on the lower-left womans arm.
Didn't even notice the peacock feathers.

Oh that. I didn't notice that before.
Hmmm, interesting. Maybe Flemeth was a Tevinter that somehow did not transform into a darkspawn?

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Those feathers are peacock feathers that are usually used to symbolise hubris, which is what supposedely caused them to turn into darkspawn. That'ss how I interpretted it anyways. 

Ah yes, that totally went over my head! I just wonder if they're not thinking the same thing though with Morrigan- like the Tevinter magisters, she seemingly is out for power and is willing to go to great lengths to achieve such power. We don't know exactly why she is seeking such power, but like I've said before, it would seem at least they've said so with DA2, that much of DA is sort of about human weakness and kind of cautionary tales about power.

SO whether the feathers on Morrigan's shoulder are supposed to be peacock feathers or not is sort of unclear- in some of the concept art it looks like this:



And in game it looks like this:

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UFOash wrote...
I thought he was referring to the feather things on the lower-left womans arm.
Didn't even notice the peacock feathers.

Oh that. I didn't notice that before.
Hmmm, interesting. Maybe Flemeth was a Tevinter that somehow did not transform into a darkspawn?

Hmmmm... maybe... thats certainly an interesting idea! The problem with all the ideas that Flemeth was around at the time of the Tevinter mages invading the Golden City is thats a good deal longer ago than even her Origin story with Conobar and Osen.  The Magisters supposedly went into the Golden CIty in 395 Ancient and Flemeth's Origin story with Osen and Conobar I think took place in the Tower Age.. although I don't recall where I read that.

But maybe Flemeth absorbed some power from going into the Golden City and not being fully tainted plus taking a spirit with the whole Conobar episode and later taking on a demon too?

[MoSa09]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

Haha- all right lets try this again... [/quote]

seems you succeeded. And making up for those two lost but making an extra long one i see?

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, the thing is Knowles seemed a bit disspirited with BioWare getting eaten up by EA then you've got the decision to inject ME into DA. Thats nothing against Laidlaw or Darrah necessarily, but after reading Knowles' blog and thinking how former executive producer Dant Tudge left after they delayed the PC version and how other people like James Ohlen, DA's first lead designer, are working on TOR now- I'm weary of the direction they're taking DA. I just hope they really reaize why people liked DAO- many people liked DA and bought DAO because it wasn't like Mass Effect and they want different kinds of RPGs. [/quote]

I thought Mark Darrah was one of the few in charge of both DAO and DA 2? The rest of the team has changed or moved on to other projects.
I am still undecided what to think. But if all independent voices point to Mass Effectionization of Dragon Age while all still working for BW try to tell us thats not gonna happen...

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

Yeah...it will be curious to see DA2's sales in relation to Origins. Its tricky- on one hand if it does worse, well maybe that would be a sign that Origins' old school formula was an asset. Yet if it does poorly, that might mean DA pulls a Jade Empire and dies right there. But then again, given the ME-ification of DA, should Morrigan appear again, that probably means either no Warden or turning the Warden into a voiced PC, which meh.... might work, but still, would be supremely strange watching a voiced Warden try to interact with Morrigan, especially with the romance dialogue- the bane of the voiced PC, IMO.[/quote]

Actually, if my one and only concern in DA 3 will be voice acting, but Morrigan appears with the Warden, their decisions and relationship all recognized, i am a happy camper. My fears are much worse.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah...while we've got DW, we won't be hearing any Claudia Black Morrigan voice for a couple years most likely...*sigh* [/quote]

i suppose we could still replay Origins, as i do, with different gender, classes, origins and decisions, that game has still something to offer...

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, the story and specifically Flemeth and Morrigan/Warden's story is what I'm most interested in going forward. That doesn't mean I want them to abandon everything else about Origins though. I mean, if they're going an ME route, I'm sorry,, but even besides the writing, the characters in ME2 feel hollow and shallow compared to DAO- are we going to get stuck with Morrigan making calibrations now after we exhaust all 2 lines of her dialogue?<_< [/quote]

Sorry Warden, i am calibrating my cone of cold at the moment, can we talk later...


[quote]Brockololly wrote...

I was thinking that was Morrigan casting the tree spell that killed that Templar in the comic. But even so, I think the point still stands- like you said, Flemeth has the trees come alive in The Stolen Throne too. But I always wonder about Flemeth's line "You are a perfect creature and perfect for my purpose" - Is she simply alluding to the DR there or something more? [/quote]

Not sure, but there is one thing it take for granted. Flemeth didn't raise Morrigan just because she felt lonely. Morrigan serves a purpose for Flemeth, whatever that might be. And i have my doubts Morrigan will like her final purpose Flemeth has planned for her.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Could be- I mean there is all that speculation that Flemeth may be Fen'Harel, the trickster elven god. And you've got Morrigan saying in Witch Hunt how "My mother has tricked her way past death and even more. She is no more finished than I am." [/quote]

Need to look that up it seems. That indeed makes some interesting speculation.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Seeing as DA Central is dead, I can't pull up the quote, but Gaide has said in the past that Morrigan is human. But, does that mean she is 100% human? I mean, if you're elf-blooded you're "human," maybe its the same with other things? This was speculated on in the DA2 forums, but maybe dragon form Flemeth got knocked up by a male dragon and then switched to human form to birth Morrigan- meaning Morrigan is part dragon? Maybe that explains the eyes? And maybe, like the Grey Wardens have the power of the Taint in their blood, Morrigan seeks to unlock the power thats locked in her draconic heritage? I mean, this is Dragon Age after all... [/quote]

Actually, sounds a bit too obvious for me. That has been speculated back and forth and would surprise no one. Might not be the best argument, but i believe whatever will be revealed, it will be something that has not been widely speculated.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Oh and did anyone else get the code for the DA2 Staff of Parthalan? I think its the staff Hawke uses in the trailer- you get it if you sign up for DA2 newsletter. But yeah, Staff of Parthalan? Now what does that sound like? Oh, Arlathan! And here is the the description which has all the foreshadowing subtlety of a sledgehammer:

[quote]Magic has always run strongly within the Hawke bloodline. The tales  passed down from one generation to the next tell of an ancestor named  Parthalan, a mage who long ago helped to unite Ferelden under the rule  of King Calenhad. Parthalan eventually vanished into legend, fleeing the persecution of the Chantry, but his legacy remains in the hands of his  family - along with his hope that one day, mages would achieve the  freedom that King Calenhad intended to bring to all men.[/quote]

So yeah, that plus the bit with Flemeth leading her mage army against the Templars in the trailer? Seems the whole mage freedom bit and Arlathan could play a big role. Which could easily lead to Morrigan's return in DA3 (with the Warden, dammit!) [/quote]

you read that book in Witch Hunt, right? That one describing an army of mages from Tevinter fighting the chantry? That more or less describes the same scene you can see in the DA 2 trailer what looks like a Morrigan clone army
==================================

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Now for some Flemeth/Morrigan speculation/rambling!

So in DA2, it would seem that when Hawke and family run into Flemeth on their way to Gwaren after fleeing Lothering. And Flemeth instructs Hawke to deliver a package to the Dalish, possibly the Dalish clan from Origins. Then you have the fact that Flemeth lives in close proximity to the Dalish in the Korcari Wilds. And how FLemeth can control trees, like Velanna or the Dalish. Flemeth supposedly is immortal- not unlike the ancient elves of Arlathan time. And then you have Morrigan stealing the Dalish book on the Eluvians. [/quote]

Well, Flemeth seems to survive being killed. Elves might have been immortal, but they could be killed by a blade. Flemeth seems to be different.
And i wonder how Hawke, fleeing north, can deliver a letter to a dalish clan that resides in the south of Ferelden. Of course, the clan could have been way north and travelled south later. Still sounds a little odd to me.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

Possibly this is one of the reasons that upon asking Morrigan whether Flemeth had something to do with the Blight as an Orlesian in Witch Hunt, Morrigan says: "Perhaps more than even you would believe." That, plus Morrigan telling the Orlesian "Go. Tell your Wardens to be wary. Tell them to watch for what is to come." makes me think that Flemeth has some deep connection to the Old Gods or the darkspawn or the Magisters or the Blights. It makes me think that the change isn't necessarily just the mages being freed, but something tied to the Taint/darkspawn too. So maybe the freeing of the mages is simply step 1 in the overall change in Thedas as part of Flemeth's plan.  [/quote]

I have my doubts Flemeth or Morrigan intend to free the mages. That might happen accidently along the way, but neither of them is bringing change to the world for that purpose.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
But thats confusing to me too. Morrigan seems very concerned over the true nature of Flemeth and tells the Orlesian in a somewhat worried tone to be wary of the change to come. Yet when she is giving her change speech, she sounds as if the change is something she wants to happen. I guess it comes down to how Morrigan/Flemeth relate to the change. Is it something Morrigan or Flemeth will be directly bringing about or is it something like a natural event, something thats coming regardless and they're just trying to use the "change" event to their own advantage and to their own ends? [/quote]

I guess Morrigan do want to change the world. So she is not concerned that change is coming, she is concerned Flemeth might lead change towards a certain direction that only serves Flemeth but no one else. A world in war, chantry fighting a different faction, a qunari invasion, maybe even the elfs seizing the opportunity to claim back what they lost? Such a world in chaos usually brings up people who take the opportunity and benefit from the chaos, heralding the change into a direction that favors only themselves.

[quote]UFOash wrote...

Okay, its doubtful Morrigan can turn into a dragon I said that myself, my point was that its just as possible Morrigan is mascarading in a different form as it is for Flemeth, even if Morrigan's shapeshifting abilities are less than Flemeths she has no doubt studied Humans so by that theory Morrigan could very well be using a fake form. [/quote]

Well, Morrigan said its impossible to shapeshift into a different kind of human form, and that she can't do that. Here we have the issue of trust again, but i do believe her, especially as nothing points out she might by lying.

[quote]UFOash wrote...
Morrigan
herself also talks about "batting her eyelashes" to get what she wants I'd like to believe Morrigan has a soft centre but if she were to turn out to have some sinister plans I can imagine many of the Warden characters would be in some real trouble & would walk right into it.[/quote]

don't know, batting your eyeslashes to get wat you want is nothing so  special. Leliana does that herself, and a female Warden can use that  power too throughout the game. At least it appears she does. There is nothing evil or sinister in that, nor does that make Morrigan special in any way.

[quote]UFOash wrote...

I think (don't hold me to this though) that she approves of the blood ritual in the alienage (sacrificing elven lives for increased constitution) which I would consider both immoral & unnecessary to her or the wardens ultimate goal. [/quote]

She approves it, but again, that ritual would give you more power, power you might need to defeat Loghain or the archdemon, power you might miss in the end that leads to failure. Don't get me wrong, the price for that power is way too high, but her arguments make sense nevertheless.

[quote]UFOash wrote...
Morrigan differs from other potential liars in the party (like Zevran) because she clearly has some kind of big thing coming in the future, I highly doubt Zevran (or any of the others bar the Warden) can have effects as large as the likes of Old God's & immortality. [/quote]

that is true, but does not change the fact that other lie as well. And if you think about it, Zev can turn against you and try to kill you if you do not manage to get his approval high enough.

[quote]UFOash wrote...
I agree we know so little about Flemeth that practically an of these important tales could be her, but my point was just that we really no little about Morrigan too. With Flemeth "dead"/gone we have no-one to confirm anything Morrigan says about herself or her goals. [/quote]

as i said, the whole Morrigan story, and especially the romance, is very much about trust.

[quote]UFOash wrote...
We also have no idea why this Old God has been concieved. Morrigan states that her mother sent her for it, whether true or not she hates & "killed" her mother so clearly this kid is important to her.
The Old God child could reveal alot about Morri/Flemeth, as I said I don't  know what shes says in WH but with Flemeth's grimoires and an Old God  child Morrigan could do crazy things (e.g. she could use Flemeths ritual for taking a childs body to control this old god).[/quote]

Well, she said the child is a herald for what is to come. I belief in the troubled times ahead, full of war, the child and its heritage is a herald, a leader in dark times, not by his power, but by his heritage, to lead the world and its people a certain way, something they could belief in and that could establish a new order by its reputation
alone. So, whoever "controls" the child, can dertemine the direction the order of this child is heading. And i belief Morrigan has different, or better ideas, for that direction than Flemeth has.

Modifié par MoSa09, 03 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Morrigans God son]

The most likely thing we'll get with Morrigan and the godbaby, is nothing but references. That's my guess. Probably the same with Flemeth after DA2. BioWare will wipe the slate clean again, and start anew. ( Which I wouldn't mind since they have already took away the warden, so who cares about Hawke right? )



I'll stop now, before I give yall nightmares.

[naledgeborn]

Want to throw up a Morrigan banner in the sig. Figured this is the place to ask for help.

[MoSa09]

naledgeborn wrote...

Want to throw up a Morrigan banner in the sig. Figured this is the place to ask for help.

you know how to include a picture like this one into your post so it gets displayed?

[naledgeborn]

Sadly nope. is it displayed by html or a link?

[MoSa09]

naledgeborn wrote...

Sadly nope. is it displayed by html or a link?

just click quote on my post with the pic. In the text box, you'll see an option called "BBCode". Click it and you see the codong. That way, you can see how omahes are posted and displayed. The only thing you have to do to post your own image is to replace a link of a picture of your own between the coding you see there.

the coding is *img*link*/img*

you just need to replace the * with a [ or a ]. It will get easier to understand once you see the code in the post

Modifié par MoSa09, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:07 .

[naledgeborn]

MoSa09 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Sadly nope. is it displayed by html or a link?

just click quote on my post with the pic. In the text box, you'll see an option called "BBCode". Click it and you see the codong. That way, you can see how omahes are posted and displayed. The only thing you have to do to post your own image is to replace a link of a picture of your own between the coding you see there.

the coding is *img*link*/img*

you just need to replace the * with a [ or a ]. It will get easier to understand once you see the code in the post

Got it thanks. Is there a thread with a couple Morri banners?

[MoSa09]

naledgeborn wrote...

Got it thanks. Is there a thread with a couple Morri banners?

there are some in this thread, but this has been a while, so you have to browse a bunch of pages back to find them. There a few just personal ones (like the first in my sig), but there are a few you might like and want to try. Or make one of your own

[UFOash]

I guess your right, it is largely about trust.

We don't really have much choice but to trust her as shes really the only one talking on these subjects, considering her "power is everything" ideology though I doubt this kid will be taught to "help the world".

Everything Morrigan knows is from Flemeth, I bet it'll either be some kind of evil leader or the PC for a future DA.
I don't know though, I find it quite hard to trust Morrigan entirely, especially because other than Morrigans biased view Flemeth doesn't seem much/any worse.

[Brockololly]

UFOash wrote...
We don't really have much choice but to trust her as shes really the only one talking on these subjects, considering her "power is everything" ideology though I doubt this kid will be taught to "help the world".

Well, if you don't trust her don't do the DR.
I think part of the notion with Morrigan is that sure, she was raised by Flemeth but part of the possibility with the Warden in a relationship with her is that the Warden can show her that love is not necessarily a weakness and you can sort of get through to her more human side. She still cares about power and all, but its not as if Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt is the same Morrigan you started out with in the Korcari Wilds.

UFOash wrote...
Everything Morrigan knows is from Flemeth, I bet it'll either be some kind of evil leader or the PC for a future DA.
I don't know though, I find it quite hard to trust Morrigan entirely, especially because other than Morrigans biased view Flemeth doesn't seem much/any worse.

Again, everything Morrigan knows is from Flemeth until she sets out with the Warden and sees the world at large through her own eyes. Making the OGB some evil force would be the worst and most tired possible way to handle the OGB plotline. They could do that, but it would be incredibly lame.

Sure you may not trust Morrigan entirely, but I sure as hell trust her more than Flemeth. Flemeth NEVER gives the PC a straight answer on anything. Flemeth is a complete mystery.

[naledgeborn]

Flemeth is as cryptic if not more than Eloni Zenovia. "The sky grows dark, but lo here comes the dawn" comes to mind lol. Can't trust her. I'm one of the few that's willing to go out on a limb and trust Morrigan however. No doubt she was raised by Flemeth who's been supposedly sh!tted on by the world for centuries (or so she says), but the second she steps into Lothering that perspective is tainted. Traveling with the Warden for 2 years changed her. What cements my position on this is the Broken Circle quest. If her approval is low and you try to convince her she could've been a Circle Mage she responds in a b!tchy fashion. If her approval is high or LI she'll agree and start questioning Flemeth's views.

[Brockololly]

naledgeborn wrote...
Traveling with the Warden for 2 years changed her. What cements my position on this is the Broken Circle quest. If her approval is low and you try to convince her she could've been a Circle Mage she responds in a b!tchy fashion. If her approval is high or LI she'll agree and start questioning Flemeth's views.

Very good point.

People like to paint Morrigan as some cruel and evil person alot of times and while she may be quite harsh in her views on certain things, she has a reason for them in her upbringing with Flemeth. And you can convince her to question her views too- like you mentioned with the mages. She is a far more complex character than many give her credit for.

It would just be a shame if in DA3 or whenever we don't have the Warden around to continue that character development with Morrigan.

[UFOash]

Brockololly wrote...
Well, if you don't trust her don't do the DR.
I think part of the notion with Morrigan is that sure, she was raised by Flemeth but part of the possibility with the Warden in a relationship with her is that the Warden can show her that love is not necessarily a weakness and you can sort of get through to her more human side. She still cares about power and all, but its not as if Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt is the same Morrigan you started out with in the Korcari Wilds.

Fair enough, but Morrigan offers all Wardens no matter how they've treated her the chance to do the DR.
I like Morrigan don't get me wrong its just when it comes to things like this or her purpose in being with the Warden she seems quite determined.

She obviously has some plan for the child & considering she was planning to do it before she joined you I'd imagine her plans for it are either those Flemeth told her to or a variation of those more suited to Morrigan.

Brockololly wrote...
Again, everything Morrigan knows is from Flemeth until she sets out with the Warden and sees the world at large through her own eyes. Making the OGB some evil force would be the worst and most tired possible way to handle the OGB plotline. They could do that, but it would be incredibly lame.

Sure you may not trust Morrigan entirely, but I sure as hell trust her more than Flemeth. Flemeth NEVER gives the PC a straight answer on anything. Flemeth is a complete mystery.

Yes I agree that is annoying, there is definately something else to Flemeth but it may not necessarily be bad.

Morrigan has a nice personality I guess once you talk to her more but Morrigan has another part of her that already knows what shes going to do & nothing is going to change that.

She knew all along that she would be asking the Warden to do the DR when the time was right, I believe she already knows exactly what shes going to do regarding the baby & what she plans to in the near future at least.

Morrigan is great but she definately has plans what they are we can only wait & see.

[naledgeborn]

The way I look at it she's inexperienced. It's funny that for an apostate one could say that she's just as caged to Flemeth's views as a circle mage is to the tower and the chantry. And yes I will lose all hope in Bioware if the Warden/Morrigan/OGB story bites the dust. Sort of like Kotor but that was Obsidian's/LA's fault..

[MoSa09]

UFOash wrote...

Yes I agree that is annoying, there is definately something else to Flemeth but it may not necessarily be bad.

Morrigan has a nice personality I guess once you talk to her more but Morrigan has another part of her that already knows what shes going to do & nothing is going to change that.

She knew all along that she would be asking the Warden to do the DR when the time was right, I believe she already knows exactly what shes going to do regarding the baby & what she plans to in the near future at least.

Morrigan is great but she definately has plans what they are we can only wait & see.

Well, the same is true for Morrigan. There is something else to her we do not know, but it doesn't have to be bad.

And unlike Flemeth, Morrigan is no centries old abomination, a legend to frighten kids and grown ups alike, with magical powers beyond anything imaginable, blackmailing the king of Ferelden, and a killing record that could probably rival the Wardens

[UFOash]

Brockololly wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
Traveling with the Warden for 2 years changed her. What cements my position on this is the Broken Circle quest. If her approval is low and you try to convince her she could've been a Circle Mage she responds in a b!tchy fashion. If her approval is high or LI she'll agree and start questioning Flemeth's views.

Very good point.

People like to paint Morrigan as some cruel and evil person alot of times and while she may be quite harsh in her views on certain things, she has a reason for them in her upbringing with Flemeth. And you can convince her to question her views too- like you mentioned with the mages. She is a far more complex character than many give her credit for.

It would just be a shame if in DA3 or whenever we don't have the Warden around to continue that character development with Morrigan.

naledgeborn wrote...

The way I look at it she's inexperienced. It's funny that for an apostate one could say that she's just as caged to Flemeth's views as a circle mage is to the tower and the chantry. And yes I will lose all hope in Bioware if the Warden/Morrigan/OGB story bites the dust. Sort of like Kotor but that was Obsidian's/LA's fault..

You defend Morrigan's views then present the ability to change her as evidence that she is good?

I personally thought her views on the Circle hit the money, it was her speech that convinced me to kill Wynne (and I kinda liked her), not me convincing Morrigan that the chantry & circle are good.

If you want a chantry cheerleader Leliana is waiting, if you like to right the wrong girl thats all well and good but Morrigans views are actually quite acceptable.
Morrigans ability to change her views (which I was unaware os till you mentioned it) sounds like an uncharacteristic lack of belief in what she believes.

She states in Broken Circle that the Circle Mages are blind & that they do as they're told, never questioning that "Blood Magic" or Apostates aren't nessesarily bad.

Apostates are one of the main things I agree on Morrigan with.
Flemeth isn't necessarily wrong was my point, but these views are Morrigans views also so its peculiar that sides must be taken.

Off the subject that post I thing Brockololly posted is it just me or do Templars take a bollocking from everyone!?
Poor guy was just doing his job.

Modifié par UFOash, 03 octobre 2010 - 09:12 .

[naledgeborn]

UFOash wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
Traveling with the Warden for 2 years changed her. What cements my position on this is the Broken Circle quest. If her approval is low and you try to convince her she could've been a Circle Mage she responds in a b!tchy fashion. If her approval is high or LI she'll agree and start questioning Flemeth's views.

Very good point.

People like to paint Morrigan as some cruel and evil person alot of times and while she may be quite harsh in her views on certain things, she has a reason for them in her upbringing with Flemeth. And you can convince her to question her views too- like you mentioned with the mages. She is a far more complex character than many give her credit for.

It would just be a shame if in DA3 or whenever we don't have the Warden around to continue that character development with Morrigan.

naledgeborn wrote...

The way I look at it she's inexperienced. It's funny that for an apostate one could say that she's just as caged to Flemeth's views as a circle mage is to the tower and the chantry. And yes I will lose all hope in Bioware if the Warden/Morrigan/OGB story bites the dust. Sort of like Kotor but that was Obsidian's/LA's fault..

You defend Morrigan's views then present the ability to change her as evidence that she is good?

I personally thought her views on the Circle hit the money, it was her speech that convinced me to kill Wynne (and I kinda liked her), not me convincing Morrigan that the chantry & circle are good.

If you want a chantry cheerleader Leliana is waiting, if you like to right the wrong girl thats all well and good but Morrigans views are actually quite right.

She states in Broken Circle that the Circle Mages are blind & that they do as they're told, never questioning that "Blood Magic" or Apostates aren't nessesarily bad.

Apostates are one of the main things I agree on Morrigan with.

Off the subject that post I thing Brockololly posted is it just me or do Templars take a bollocking from everyone!?
Poor guy was just doing his job.

Apostates vs Chantry is not the point. The point is that she changes. Flemeth is no longer infallible. So maybe Morrigan doesn't want to see the world burn anymore. And yes, muthaf- the chantry. I'm cool with Andraste and all that just not the bloodsuckers profiteering off of her. I'm the dude that killed Kolgrim and HD but sent Genetivi packing in Haven. 

[UFOash]

naledgeborn wrote...

UFOash wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
Traveling with the Warden for 2 years changed her. What cements my position on this is the Broken Circle quest. If her approval is low and you try to convince her she could've been a Circle Mage she responds in a b!tchy fashion. If her approval is high or LI she'll agree and start questioning Flemeth's views.

Very good point.

People like to paint Morrigan as some cruel and evil person alot of times and while she may be quite harsh in her views on certain things, she has a reason for them in her upbringing with Flemeth. And you can convince her to question her views too- like you mentioned with the mages. She is a far more complex character than many give her credit for.

It would just be a shame if in DA3 or whenever we don't have the Warden around to continue that character development with Morrigan.

naledgeborn wrote...

The way I look at it she's inexperienced. It's funny that for an apostate one could say that she's just as caged to Flemeth's views as a circle mage is to the tower and the chantry. And yes I will lose all hope in Bioware if the Warden/Morrigan/OGB story bites the dust. Sort of like Kotor but that was Obsidian's/LA's fault..

You defend Morrigan's views then present the ability to change her as evidence that she is good?

I personally thought her views on the Circle hit the money, it was her speech that convinced me to kill Wynne (and I kinda liked her), not me convincing Morrigan that the chantry & circle are good.

If you want a chantry cheerleader Leliana is waiting, if you like to right the wrong girl thats all well and good but Morrigans views are actually quite right.

She states in Broken Circle that the Circle Mages are blind & that they do as they're told, never questioning that "Blood Magic" or Apostates aren't nessesarily bad.

Apostates are one of the main things I agree on Morrigan with.

Off the subject that post I thing Brockololly posted is it just me or do Templars take a bollocking from everyone!?
Poor guy was just doing his job.

Apostates vs Chantry is not the point. The point is that she changes. Flemeth is no longer infallible. So maybe Morrigan doesn't want to see the world burn anymore. And yes, muthaf- the chantry. I'm cool with Andraste and all that just not the bloodsuckers profiteering off of her. I'm the dude that killed Kolgrim and HD but sent Genetivi packing in Haven. 

Perhaps I went off the point there yes.

Your point is Morrigan can move off the ideas Flemeth taught her & follows either the Warden's or whoever's ideas or morals if convinced properly, as I understand it.

My point was Flemeth's aren't necessarily wrong, just like you protect Morrigan (or at least MoSa09 does) you must realise those are also Flemeth's ideals.

Perhaps its because Flemeth isn't an attractive female, perhaps its because she isn't a party member like Morrigan and you can't reach beneath her facade or discover her in depth, or perhaps its the stories Morrigan & others tell of "The Witch of the Wilds" but Flemeth is treated as an Archdemon while Morrigan is treated as the misunderstood princess despite the huge amount they have in common.

Also something I thought of after reading poster/comic Brock posted where Flemeth is teaching Morrigan, why would Flemeth go to all the trouble of teaching Morrigan all this if she intended to take Morri's body, good ammunition for the argument that Flemeth never intended to steal Morrigan's body.

The trust thing is invalid to the conversation, if (sounds strange but bear with me) Flemeth had been the party member, the Warden had fell for her & she had said Morrigan was evil & had to be killed, The Warden (not having heard Morri's side of the story) would have done the same as he did with Flemeth for Morrigan in reality, neither prove who was right because the Warden knows so little & is mearly trusting, as Chantry followers trust there is a maker, that they are doing the right thing but whether they are or not is purely a guess as they only hear Morrigans side in Origins.

FYI about Andraste I think from what you hear in the temple Andraste seems a bit intolerant too, the Tevinter Imperium had done no more bad than Orlais & Fereldan had in their pasts, its utter destruction seems a bit of a harsh punishment not to mention the guy who is supposed to do the "good thing" by accepting being cuckolded.

Modifié par UFOash, 03 octobre 2010 - 09:46 .

[MoSa09]

UFOash wrote...


My point was Flemeth's aren't necessarily wrong, just like you protect Morrigan (or at least MoSa09 does) you must realise those are also Flemeth's ideals.

I am not protective, and my opinion has nothing to do with her looks. I had those kind of arguments a hundreds times before, and in the end, it all comes down to this:

There is reason to trust Morrigan, and there is reason not to trust Morrigan. What you do is your choice and part of the game and its choices.

There is reason not to trust Flemeth. Maybe there is reason to trust Flemeth, and i am sure she could provide some, though i am certain she would just laugh when you ask her.But in game, i've found no reason to trust her.

You have to make a choice and pick one. I am fairly certain DA 2 and Flemeth will show us the flip side of the coin, and she will offer many explanations to trust her and not Morrigan, as this time around Morrigan cannot defend herself.  And in DA 3, its all about choosing.

But in Origins, i made mine because of reasons. You don't have to agree upon them, and of course i could be wrong, but not i am not protective or just caring about the looks.

Origins is about choices, and if you believe Morrigan or not is one of them. If you made a good or a bad decision will be revealed later, if at all.

Modifié par MoSa09, 03 octobre 2010 - 09:59 .