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THE Morrigan Discussion and Research Thread *Infested with Bugs Yet Again!*


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#1026
Barbarossa2010

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Master Shiori wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Both my Shephards - male and female were
decidedly underwhelmed by ME2's romance partners,

Same here. Miranda is ok for maleShep I guess... But  the romantic interests for femShep are awful. You have a cockroach, a frog... and Jacob. I  tried flirting with Jacob and Shepard was talking like a sl-ut lol

Terra_Ex wrote...
 Have you done Tali's loyalty mission yet and heard any familiar voices from the admirals?

:D

Muahahahaha!!!


Okay, don't spoil that one.  Sounds like a good one.


Just be sure to let us know if you recognize the voices. B)


Wiil do.

#1027
blademaster7

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New page. We need a pic... And since this thread is now a ME2 discussion...

Posted Image

Hot!:wub:

#1028
Guest_Trust_*

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I hadn't realized you had asked a question.  I obviously missed that and you have my apology. 
 
This sounds like a lead-in of the thousands that have hammered on blademaster and myself because we dare to possess a heretical view from community orthodoxy and; up front, I have to say that accusing a player of “misleading” on this board is a bit like handing out traffic tickets at the Daytona 500.  I fail to see the point in an accusation as such, but I’m willing to see where this goes.
 
Having said that; first of all, there is no intent to mislead.  If you dislike my comments or are suspicious of my intent, then that may have more to do with the fact that we have never spoken to each other than anything else.  I use an economy of words at this point (we are 40 pages into a combination mod/rant thread after all) since primarily I have been speaking to the same four or five players for months now, so I don’t feel the need to explain any single idea in depth (having already done so ad nauseum), assuming they understand my meaning and nuance.
 
Secondly: Technically you are correct, there are other choices, but as you have stated they are “not necessarily any better” unless of course one thinks that letting a woman you are supposedly romancing, sleep with another man is a valid choice; that was just not an option for my Warden.  If there were choices other than these, then my failure to mention them was merely an oversight probably due to them being unremarkable, rather than any intent to mislead.

I will try to recap much of what I've shared with these same individuals for months now, so let me bulletize for expedience.
 
-Morrigan presents you with a very speculative ritual to spare your life, and has withheld that information for very weak and unrealistic reasons imo. “Would you have believed me?”  Um, yes as a matter of fact my Warden would have.
 
-Said ritual will attract the “essence” of the Archdemon.
 
-My Warden was stone cold Grey Warden in personality.  At first very reluctant, tormented to leave his family to die, but later turned that energy into vengeance and became a hardcore Warden ideologue.
 
-My Warden was not well versed in the ways of magic and lore.
 
-Morrigan, while well on her way to becoming human, had not earned the level of trust required to ask for such a thing.  Killing Flemeth was a big request and my Warden reluctantly did it, but still didn’t know if he had done the wrong thing or not.  He felt like she had used him, but would wait and see.
 
-My Warden had well proved himself to Morrigan, but not vice versa.
 
-Morrigan was unstable in character and emotion in the view of my Warden.  As you well know, that does not preclude one from loving them, but it does cause one to be suspicious of that person’s intent in any given situation.  To wit:
 
      *For all of Morrigan’s talk of freedom, she had to qualms whatsoever in enslaving elves.
      *Her lack of contact with the concept of familial love was most disturbing, but you did see her at least questioning it.  She didn’t seem convinced however, at the point of the DR.
      *Survival and power trumped romantic/familial love (as far as you knew at the point of the DR).
      *Her background in general bred her to be self-interested and thus, seemingly unreliable at the point which that might be threatened.
      *She, more often than not, missed the big picture in building an alliance in favor of rushing in to complete a mission, ill-prepared or not.
      *She was impetuous to the point of flaw.
 
-In my Warden’s opinion, she had not overcome these character flaws, but he was beginning to love her because he had watched her trials and growing pains.
 
The Ritual:
 
-Options available to the Warden throughout the game, mysteriously dried up at the DR.
 
-The Ritual seemed something nearing sinister to my Warden.
 
-Morrigan’s was in essence asking my Warden to be complicit in attracting the essence of the very thing he was sworn to destroy (for all he knew-and she wasn’t going to let him think otherwise apparently). (Not realistic).
 
-Morrigan felt she owed no explanation beyond platitudes or ambiguity.  (Out of character-not realistic)
 
-No where are you given the choice to press Morrigan for information a Warden would demand to know.  (Out of character).
 
-No where are you allowed to persuade or intimidate. (Out of character).
 
-What information she does give are half answers, and all my Warden knew was that he was not going to get the answers he needed, “love” or not, and the Plot Gods spoke and deemed that he wasn’t allowed to press her at all.  (Out of character)
 
-Failing all checks at getting any real answer that would matter, Morrigan forced my Warden to fall back on what he did know.  He thought what Duncan would do in his situation.  He came to the conclusion that Duncan would have been appalled at him doing this thing with so little information and her skirting the few feeble attempts at find out relevant information.
 
-Instantly my Warden saw her as a threat (he really didn’t trust that whole Flemeth thing anyway and she wasn’t saying anything to really convince him; and he thought he was owed that for the request being made).  (Out of character and unrealistic)
 
-He knew he would have to slay her to prevent the Blight from becoming worse (she didn’t say anything convincing enough to persuade him and he wasn’t allowed to ask). Out of character.
 
-Then…nothing.  Bye-bye, do it, or have Alistair/Loghain do it.  If you choose to sacrifice, you get to watch her leave safe, sound, and smirking.
 
-Warden remains silent, too sheepish to ask real questions.  He looks like a chump doing it with so little knowledge of what he’s getting into-and she doesn’t have to tell…(Out of character)
 
-No shield bash, no war cry, nothing…(Out of character)
 
-That Morrigan would trust my Warden exclusively to deal with her mother, but not with the knowledge of her grand plan just didn’t ring realistic to me.
 
-Her departure (if you choose sacrifice) proves she did not love him, not in any real sense at least.  Not one thing can I, as a player, imagine that warranted her walking away (she trusted him to deal with Flemeth after all) at that point and leaving her “love” to die, when she could have easily come clean, saved her Warden and gotten what she wanted; unless of course her intent was evil-but again, while all arrows pointed to her less than selfless intent for my Warden, she skates away freely.  (Not realistic).
 
In summary, my Warden would not have stood idly by, while she hatched a plan to extend the Blight for her purposes of gaining power.  Therefore he was forced out of character to appease a plot hook.
 
Now if you are one of the legion of players that is of the opinion that the choices were spot-on and realistic in the DR then us arguing interpretive opinion based on an extremely ambiguous plot line is really not going to produce much.  But in the end, all either of us possesses is merely an opinion and the plot gods are going to do as they please, probably to the glee of the more orthodox base.
BTW, DA:O was my first RPG (shooter background) and I speak from a more populist viewpoint than hardcore RPG or dark fantasy fans.  I can only tell you why the game left me flat from what would have otherwise been a great experience. I have no expereine from BG or NWN, or even KOTOR to compare it to. 

Mass Effect is turning out to be more to my expectations.



What I also hate is that throughout the game you can't ask Morrigan what she and Flemeth are really up to, especially knowing that it actually involves your PC. I think I suspected this half the time during my first playthrough. There are party banters that give you clues, some of your teammates talk to you about it, and most importantly when Morrigan mentions that you will both regret loving each other in the end you don’t even get the option to ask why. And also to add, why can’t the PC read the two books that Morrigan wants before giving them to her. The developers really placed us up for a trap and I hope this doesn’t happen again in DA2.
 
I felt the same way in Awakening when I wasn’t able to ask the Architect more questions about him and his plans before making my decision whether to kill him or not.

#1029
Barbarossa2010

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You know, in my Warden's view it was Morrigan's burden to convince, not his to blindly accept.

#1030
Brockololly

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AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

What I also hate is that throughout the game you can't ask Morrigan what she and Flemeth are really up to, especially knowing that it actually involves your PC. I think I suspected this half the time during my first playthrough. There are party banters that give you clues, some of your teammates talk to you about it, and most importantly when Morrigan mentions that you will both regret loving each other in the end you don’t even get the option to ask why. And also to add, why can’t the PC read the two books that Morrigan wants before giving them to her. The developers really placed us up for a trap and I hope this doesn’t happen again in DA2.
 
I felt the same way in Awakening when I wasn’t able to ask the Architect more questions about him and his plans before making my decision whether to kill him or not.


With respect to Morrigan and Flemeth being mysterious- I like that about them and it makes them intriguing characters, but I think that at the end when you get to the Dark Ritual scene the player, especially if the PC is romancing or is friends with Morrigan, deserves some more answers. Its like a TV show that keeps creating mysterious storylines but you never get any resolution with them. So right now the mystery of Morrigan's motives are an obvious cliffhanger and hook for the next game but we need some solid answers in DA2- if they just keep feeding us more mysteries without any resoution, eventually you'll just get tired of it all.

#1031
Barbarossa2010

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BTW Blademaster, when are you going to register Awakenings?  Your avatar looks naked.  Is that some sort of silent protest?Posted Image

#1032
blademaster7

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You know, in my Warden's view it
was Morrigan's burden to convince, not his to blindly accept.

Exactly.
All of the sudden you are the one with his back against the wall. It
should have been the other way around. I don't really want to stretch
the issue here. You know how I feel.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

BTW Blademaster, when are you going to register Awakenings?  Your avatar looks naked.  Is that some sort of silent protest?Posted Image

Never! Not after that stupid "community" announcement. I won't let them know that I bought their crappy XP. Ha!

#1033
Master Shiori

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AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

What I also hate is that throughout the game you can't ask Morrigan what she and Flemeth are really up to, especially knowing that it actually involves your PC. I think I suspected this half the time during my first playthrough. There are party banters that give you clues, some of your teammates talk to you about it, and most importantly when Morrigan mentions that you will both regret loving each other in the end you don’t even get the option to ask why. And also to add, why can’t the PC read the two books that Morrigan wants before giving them to her. The developers really placed us up for a trap and I hope this doesn’t happen again in DA2.
 
I felt the same way in Awakening when I wasn’t able to ask the Architect more questions about him and his plans before making my decision whether to kill him or not.


True. The developers seem to have gone out of their way to make both Flemeth and Morrigan as mysterious as possible.

Even with what little information we have gathered during the game, we can't really seem to separate the fact from fiction, the truth from lies.

Recently I've gone through all the banter Morrigan has with other companions and found something curious. No matter who she's talking to or what subject is being discussed, Morrigan always finds a way to avoid revealing anything about herself or her views.

A good example is her discussion with Leliana regarding the Maker. When asked if she believes in the Maker, Morrigan will reply that she does not, but will never actually explain what she does believe in. She could be easily mistaken for an atheist if she didnt have an interest in preserving the Old God's soul.

The more I think about both Flemeth and Morrigan in DA:O, the more I'm convinced that the devs have an important story planned for both of them and wanted to keep them as mysterious as possible to avoid leaking any spoilers.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 21 avril 2010 - 10:06 .


#1034
Barbarossa2010

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BTW, I just got my chance to knock the shlt out of Zaeed on a Paragon interupt. It was a hard smash too! That's all I was waiting for. I'm happy now!

#1035
Master Shiori

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

BTW, I just got my chance to knock the shlt out of Zaeed on a Paragon interupt. It was a hard smash too! That's all I was waiting for. I'm happy now!


More goodies will come before you're done with that mission ;)

#1036
Brockololly

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You know, in my Warden's view it was Morrigan's burden to convince, not his to blindly accept.


Absolutely- and I don't think she did a very good job of it, at all. I think most of the problem here is that the Warden has pretty much already blindly accepted most of what Morrigan has spit out ( killing Flemeth and beleieving her story about Flemeth's body snatching) and now Morrigan is just kind of expecting the Warden will blindly do her bidding again.

So she expects the Warden to not only have a baby with her, but to have some sort of bizarre Old God Baby and on top of that she stipulates that the Warden will never see his kid (ever) and on top of that the PC will never see his love, Morrigan, ever again and on top of that(!) she won't even give a reason as to why she wants to do this whole Ritual beyond some very flaky and very vague notion of the child being a symbol of Freedom. Ok?

Yeah I kind of doubt Morrigan is just going to chill with her OGB in some hut raising a snotty little kid (she states in the game that she even hates kids!) so that the OGB can just learn about the world. She's pragmatic above all else and she obviously has a very specific plan for the OGB and we as the players never have the chance to even remotely call Morrigan out on this.

Obviously based on Aimo's comic from a while back, Gaider and the writers had more planned for the Ritual scene which might have made it make a bit more sense. Its too bad it got cut. As it stands now, the whole thing just seems out of character for the romanced version of Morrigan and the limited dialogue choices make it seem way too obvious that its not Morrigan holding back info but rather Bioware holding back info because they want the Dark Ritual the big plot hook for DA2.

#1037
KnightofPhoenix

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Brockololly wrote...
 As it stands now, the whole thing just seems out of character for the romanced version of Morrigan and the limited dialogue choices make it seem way too obvious that its not Morrigan holding back info but rather Bioware holding back info because they want the Dark Ritual the big plot hook for DA2.


It's obviously the latter. Bioware is not going to give away a potential plotline and thus ruin whatever shock value or twist it might bring. Alternatively, Bioware might not even be sure what to do with this, so decided to remain vague for the time being.

I would have preferred if she had slightly more to reveal when romanced, but that's what we have. And despite all the mystery, I personally do not regret making the ritual decision. For now.  

#1038
Barbarossa2010

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Brockololly wrote...

Obviously based on Aimo's comic from a while back, Gaider and the writers had more planned for the Ritual scene which might have made it make a bit more sense. Its too bad it got cut. As it stands now, the whole thing just seems out of character for the romanced version of Morrigan and the limited dialogue choices make it seem way too obvious that its not Morrigan holding back info but rather Bioware holding back info because they want the Dark Ritual the big plot hook for DA2.


Agreed. Some sort of contextual information would have been appreciated for her romancers if no one else. 

#1039
Brockololly

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Master Shiori wrote...

A good example is her discussion with Leliana regarding the Maker. When asked if she believes in the Maker, Morrigan will reply that she does not, but will never actually explain what she does believe in. She could be easily mistaken for an atheist if she didnt have an interest in preserving the Old God's soul.

The more I think about both Flemeth and Morrigan in DA:O, the more I'm convinced that the devs have an important story planned for both of them and wanted to keep them as mysterious as possible to avoid leaking any spoilers.


Thats what I think too- Morrigan and Flemeth are being set up for something. We just have no clue right now other than it likely involves the Old God Baby. I mean even if you kill Flemeth Morrigan will tell you she'll be back and Morrigan is the only unkillable companion- I think the writing is on the wall.

I think its just a fine line that the writers are going on between keeping Morrigan mysterious and simply frustrating people with their obvious attempts at not revealing anything. Eventually you've got to let people in on the mystery or else what is the point? There has to be some payoff in the end- and I just hope that the Warden can be the one to uncover whatever it is Morrigan and Flemeth are brewing and not some other random Epic Hero of Thedas.

#1040
blademaster7

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Brockololly wrote...

So she expects the Warden to not only have a baby with her, but to have some sort of bizarre Old God Baby and on top of that she stipulates that the Warden will never see his kid (ever) and on top of that the PC will never see his love, Morrigan, ever again and on top of that(!) she won't even give a reason as to why she wants to do this whole Ritual beyond some very flaky and very vague notion of the child being a symbol of Freedom. Ok?

Yeah I kind of doubt Morrigan is just going to chill with her OGB in some hut raising a snotty little kid (she states in the game that she even hates kids!) so that the OGB can just learn about the world. She's pragmatic above all else and she obviously has a very specific plan for the OGB and we as the players never have the chance to even remotely call Morrigan out on this.

The first paragraph makes me wanna laugh and cry at the same time. :mellow:

That's exactly what I didn't like.

If we were watching a movie, then you will probably see a cinematic with Morri and the PC having a long chat but with no sound... and then the screen goes blank.

If we were reading a book then Morri would probably tell the PC a "secret" and then disappear the next day.

Unfortunately, this kind of writing doesn't work for roleplaying games. It's a terrible thing to write in a game in fact.  The whole meaning of the word "roleplaying" is the fact that you are a part of the story. You are not just a spectator.

#1041
Brockololly

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blademaster7 wrote...

If we were watching a movie, then you will probably see a cinematic with Morri and the PC having a long chat but with no sound... and then the screen goes blank.

If we were reading a book then Morri would probably tell the PC a "secret" and then disappear the next day.

Unfortunately, this kind of writing doesn't work for roleplaying games. It's a terrible thing to write in a game in fact.  The whole meaning of the word "roleplaying" is the fact that you are a part of the story. You are not just a spectator.


Yeah, I mean even the type of scenes you mentioned might work in other video games but in an RPG where the player is directly controlling the dialogue and action of the PC? No- its a cheap way to stir interest in the "mystery."

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's obviously the latter. Bioware is not going to give away a potential
plotline and thus ruin whatever shock value or twist it might bring.
Alternatively, Bioware might not even be sure what to do with this, so
decided to remain vague for the time being.

I would have
preferred if she had slightly more to reveal when romanced, but that's
what we have. And despite all the mystery, I personally do not regret
making the ritual decision. For now.  


It could very well be the case that Bioware doesn't know where they're going with the whole Morrigan storyline, but IMO given how long they spent on building up the lore of DA, I'm pretty sure Gaider and the devs have at least a vague notion of where Morrigan's story may end up.

The whole DR scene is just a bit maddening- its arguably one of the more important scenes in the game for the Warden and yet its very static and almost just a cutscene where the Warden can hardly interact or convince Morrigan of revealing anything insightful about her plans. Its a bit frustrating but its just kind of a reality that in most games the endings end up seeming rushed or abridged- Origins isn't too bad in this regard (awakening is!) but I wish devs would spend more time and $$ on the ends to their games.

I don't regret having my Cousland do the Ritual but like you said KnightofPhoenix, thats a bit of a conditional response. If the ritual and Old God Baby turn out to be bad for Thedas, I'm ok with that. How I view the whole DR ending is going to be dependent on whether or not the Warden can deal with any consequences resulting from the Ritual and not just some other Epic Hero of Thedas. The Warden created the OGB, he should be able to be the one dealing with it and Morrigan should the time come for that.

#1042
Master Shiori

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
 As it stands now, the whole thing just seems out of character for the romanced version of Morrigan and the limited dialogue choices make it seem way too obvious that its not Morrigan holding back info but rather Bioware holding back info because they want the Dark Ritual the big plot hook for DA2.


It's obviously the latter. Bioware is not going to give away a potential plotline and thus ruin whatever shock value or twist it might bring. Alternatively, Bioware might not even be sure what to do with this, so decided to remain vague for the time being.

I would have preferred if she had slightly more to reveal when romanced, but that's what we have. And despite all the mystery, I personally do not regret making the ritual decision. For now.  


Nice to see you join us here Knight.

A while back (on page 30 if I'm not mistaken) one of our fellow Morrigan fans said that if you read the various interviews Bioware devs gave during the DA:O's production, you can see how they seem to have changed quite a few things.

Apparently, the ultimate sacrifice was intended to be the default ending for Origins, but somewhere during the development process Bioware (most likely due to Mass Effect and how well the fans there greeted the idea of using the same char in sequals) decided to change it and allow for our Warden's story to continue.

My guess is that this is where the whole dark ritual and god child idea came to be. Morrigan and Flemeth were used by the writers as a plot hook that would allow our Warden to cheat death.

Morrigan's romance makes perfect sense until the Dark Ritual, when things start to feel strangely out of place. Most likely she was originally envisioned to accompany the Warden simply to help him stop the Blight (since Flemeth herself says that even she wouldn't be able to survive it), she could fall in love with the Warden if the player wished to pursue the relationship, but her speeches about the relationship ending badly were actually adressing the issue that the Warden was destined to die slaying the Archdemon, not that Morrigan would leave him after getting pregnant. Most likely she was supposed to leave the Warden before the final battle, as to avoid having to witness him make the sacrifice.

Instead, the devs added the Dark Ritual as a new prefered ending and introduced the whole "sire a child with the soul of an old god" plot which turned Morrigan from just another companion into what is probably the most important plot character in the whole game, and thus created a vital connection between Origins and the sequal.

This change of plan is even more evident in Awakening if you consider that the expansion was originally supposed to be the tale of Orlesian Warden Commander, and actually plays out a lot smoothly as such. If the import option was added later when the game was largely done, then the fact that we get almost the same dialogue from Oghren, Alistair and Wynne regardless of whether we're playing as our Origins Warden or as Warden from Orlais makes much more sense. It was probably too late to redo the whole dialogue at that point so they just added a few extra lines.

It would also explain why Loghain's cameo is the only dialogue that fits perfectly, since it would have had to be newly recorded instead of just edited.

The fact that the epilogue slides for imported Warden are very different the the Orlesian epilogue further proves that things may have been change to allow for continuation of the story.

#1043
KnightofPhoenix

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Brockololly wrote...
 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's obviously the latter. Bioware is not going to give away a potential
plotline and thus ruin whatever shock value or twist it might bring.
Alternatively, Bioware might not even be sure what to do with this, so
decided to remain vague for the time being.

I would have
preferred if she had slightly more to reveal when romanced, but that's
what we have. And despite all the mystery, I personally do not regret
making the ritual decision. For now.  


It could very well be the case that Bioware doesn't know where they're going with the whole Morrigan storyline, but IMO given how long they spent on building up the lore of DA, I'm pretty sure Gaider and the devs have at least a vague notion of where Morrigan's story may end up.


Seeing how the US ending effectively got scrapped, Bioware might not even be sure it wants / or is capable of expanding upon the Morrigan sub-plot. It would be horrible if they don't, but we do not know that yet. They explicitly said Dragon Age will not be a trilogy like Mass Effect, in other words there probably will not be one overarching storyline.

So even if they have a vague idea of where it might go, they might know if they can actually deal with it. Gaider's comments make me pessimistic to say the least.

Now there is no doubt that the Dark Ritual (The Dark Promise as the achievement goes) has the most potential (definately much more so than the US ending). But we are not sure if they will deal with it. Let alone let our PC face thew consequences like it should be.  

Brockololly wrote...
The whole DR scene is just a bit maddening- its arguably one of the more important scenes in the game for the Warden and yet its very static and almost just a cutscene where the Warden can hardly interact or convince Morrigan of revealing anything insightful about her plans. Its a bit frustrating but its just kind of a reality that in most games the endings end up seeming rushed or abridged- Origins isn't too bad in this regard (awakening is!) but I wish devs would spend more time and $$ on the ends to their games.


Agreed. And if I didn't understand Morrigan's character (at least I think I do), I would have thougt she is a manipulative **** in that scene (like so many people seem to think. I do not). The scene was handled poorly in the context of a romance. Morrigan had only one or two sentences to talk about it.  

Brockololly wrote...
I don't regret having my Cousland do the Ritual but like you said KnightofPhoenix, thats a bit of a conditional response. If the ritual and Old God Baby turn out to be bad for Thedas, I'm ok with that. How I view the whole DR ending is going to be dependent on whether or not the Warden can deal with any consequences resulting from the Ritual and not just some other Epic Hero of Thedas. The Warden created the OGB, he should be able to be the one dealing with it and Morrigan should the time come for that.


Definately agree with this. The Morrigan sub-plot can only have proper closure if it's the PC who deals with it. Even if it has to be...gulp killing her Posted Image

The thing is, and I am sure this has been discussed to death a hundred times, they probably will have to canonise it in order to fully and properly deal with it. A small side-quest won't cut it.
And that brings a lot of complications. So Bioware might just take the easy route and decide to ignore the DR completely. Which brings me back to the first point.   


EDIT: Thanks MasterShiori!

Yea I got the feeling it was a new thing they added. That's why I am not sure they even know how they would continue it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2010 - 11:12 .


#1044
Barbarossa2010

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Brockololly wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

If we were watching a movie, then you will probably see a cinematic with Morri and the PC having a long chat but with no sound... and then the screen goes blank.

If we were reading a book then Morri would probably tell the PC a "secret" and then disappear the next day.

Unfortunately, this kind of writing doesn't work for roleplaying games. It's a terrible thing to write in a game in fact.  The whole meaning of the word "roleplaying" is the fact that you are a part of the story. You are not just a spectator.


Yeah, I mean even the type of scenes you mentioned might work in other video games but in an RPG where the player is directly controlling the dialogue and action of the PC? No- its a cheap way to stir interest in the "mystery."

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's obviously the latter. Bioware is not going to give away a potential
plotline and thus ruin whatever shock value or twist it might bring.
Alternatively, Bioware might not even be sure what to do with this, so
decided to remain vague for the time being.

I would have
preferred if she had slightly more to reveal when romanced, but that's
what we have. And despite all the mystery, I personally do not regret
making the ritual decision. For now.  


It could very well be the case that Bioware doesn't know where they're going with the whole Morrigan storyline, but IMO given how long they spent on building up the lore of DA, I'm pretty sure Gaider and the devs have at least a vague notion of where Morrigan's story may end up.

The whole DR scene is just a bit maddening- its arguably one of the more important scenes in the game for the Warden and yet its very static and almost just a cutscene where the Warden can hardly interact or convince Morrigan of revealing anything insightful about her plans. Its a bit frustrating but its just kind of a reality that in most games the endings end up seeming rushed or abridged- Origins isn't too bad in this regard (awakening is!) but I wish devs would spend more time and $$ on the ends to their games.

I don't regret having my Cousland do the Ritual but like you said KnightofPhoenix, thats a bit of a conditional response. If the ritual and Old God Baby turn out to be bad for Thedas, I'm ok with that. How I view the whole DR ending is going to be dependent on whether or not the Warden can deal with any consequences resulting from the Ritual and not just some other Epic Hero of Thedas. The Warden created the OGB, he should be able to be the one dealing with it and Morrigan should the time come for that.


You know as it is, for all the reasons I'm too tired to repeat, I still say she is a threat (conditionally).  There was no reason to think otherwise based upon the knowledge you had at hand.  Yes, we know she calls you "My Love" at the Gates of Denerim, BUT my Warden was not privy to such knowledge at the DR.  In truth, had she confessed her love at the DR (a perfect time for her to do so for a romancing Warden [especially if you are about to deny her due to her half-answers], and would have tipped the scales decidedly in her favor) it would not have been so bad, and I probably could have accepted the neutering of my Warden's character, even if she had to leave.  But as it was, she came across cold, crass and entirely unentitled to ask for such a thing, and even asks "her love" to convince one of her buddy's to screw her if he (for very good Grey Warden reasons) denies her.  Yuck!

All I can say is they better scramble for a good reason for all this, because the bullshlt bar is fairly high for me.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 21 avril 2010 - 11:19 .


#1045
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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

You know, in my Warden's view it was Morrigan's burden to convince, not his to blindly accept.


Well, the only thing I can say about that is that she is honest during the DR. I mean, if you are romancing her than she could have just seduced you, have sex and leave with the demon child without you ever knowing anything about it. But no, she actually tells you her plans and gives you a choice. At least its something to consider.

Modifié par AwesomeEffect2, 21 avril 2010 - 11:26 .


#1046
KnightofPhoenix

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...
  In truth, had she confessed her love at the DR (a perfect time for her to do so for a romancing Warden [especially if you are about to deny her due to her half-answers], and would have tipped the scales decidedly in her favor) it would not have been so bad, and I probably could have accepted the neutering of my Warden's character, even if she had to leave


I see it from a different perspective. Because it was precisely the perfect time to start expressing her love, I would have thought she is BSing. It would have been too convenient to express her love for the first time when she wants something of that importance from you.

The fact that she continues to avoid expressing outright love, is what made my Warden know that she does love him. Had she expressed her love before and during the DR, he would have thought that she was doing this only because she wanted something from him.

And indeed, if Morrigan was cold hearted, she should have had no problem expressing love before, as that would have been advantageous for her and her plan. But she didn't (even when it's in her interest) because I believe that she really does love the Warden and is afraid of that.

But that's my own personal interpretation of the character. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2010 - 11:22 .


#1047
Barbarossa2010

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
  In truth, had she confessed her love at the DR (a perfect time for her to do so for a romancing Warden [especially if you are about to deny her due to her half-answers], and would have tipped the scales decidedly in her favor) it would not have been so bad, and I probably could have accepted the neutering of my Warden's character, even if she had to leave


I see it from a different perspective. Because it was precisely the perfect time to start expressing her love, I would have thought she is BSing. It would have been too convenient to express her love for the first time when she wants somethign from you.

The fact that she continue to avoid expressing outright love, is what made my Warden know that she does love him. Had she expressed her love before and during the DR, he would have thought that she was doing this only because she wanted something from him.

And indeed, if Morrigan was cold hearted, she should have had no problem expressing love before, as that would have been advantageous for her and her plan. But she didn't (even when it's in her interest) because I believe that she really does love the Warden and is afraid of that.

But that's my own personal interpretation of the character. 


But you still are accepting the Ritual on faith and trust; something she had yet to earn from my Warden, while he had gone above and beyond in the converse.  And to see just how cold she is, deny her the Ritual (which was really the only choice my Warden had).  That's beyond cold and I can envision (at present) no good reason for it.

Anything would have been better than what we got: virtual silence and (EDIT: where answers were given), ambiguity. 

But, like you, that's just my take on it.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 21 avril 2010 - 11:39 .


#1048
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Barbarossa2010 wrote...
But you still are accepting the Ritual on faith and trust; something she had yet to earn from my Warden, while he had gone above and beyond in the converse. 


Of course, it's only based on faith and trust (and hopes). I do not deny that. She had earned my Warden's trust, as he believed they thought alike in many ways. Plus, there was a whole set of reasons why my Warden accepted to do the DR, which I won't explain here. But my Warden definately did not plan to die, he wanted to be Prince Consort and the only way to guarantee that he doesn't have to sacrifice himself is to do the DR. Everything else is based on hopes / risk taking. Which he is willing to make.

I understand completely if other wardens wouldn't. (especially since your Warden is a hardcore Warden. So I too see no reason why he should accept).

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
And to see just how cold she is, deny her the Ritual (which was really the only choice my Warden had).  That's beyond cold and I can envision (at present) no good reason for it.

Anything would have been better than what we got: virtual silence and ambiguity. 

But, like you, that's just my take on it.


I do not think it is as as cold as it could be. She could have very well said nothing to your Warden, had sex with him, done the ritual and no one would have been the wiser. But she didn't do that, she wanted your Warden to know and agree with it.  

Then she made the threat of leaving if you don't do this. So she was kind of bound to her threat (she would have looked stupid if she stayed after threatening to leave).
Not saying it's good. But so far, the way I see Morrigan is that she is far from being cold-hearted (which would have made life easier for her). 

But I guess it's the beauty of the character that she can be seen in so many ways.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2010 - 11:43 .


#1049
Barbarossa2010

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
But you still are accepting the Ritual on faith and trust; something she had yet to earn from my Warden, while he had gone above and beyond in the converse. 


Of course, it's only based on faith and trust (and hopes). I do not deny that. She had earned my Warden's trust, as he believed they thought alike in many ways. Plus, there was a whole set of reasons why my Warden accepted to do the DR, which I won't explain here. But my Warden definately did not plan to die, he wanted to be Prince Consort and the only way to guarantee that he doesn't have to sacrifice himself is to do the DR. Everything else is based on hopes / risk taking. Which he is willing to make.

I understand completely if other wardens wouldn't. (especially since your Warden is a hardcore Warden. So I too see no reason why he should accept).

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
And to see just how cold she is, deny her the Ritual (which was really the only choice my Warden had).  That's beyond cold and I can envision (at present) no good reason for it.

Anything would have been better than what we got: virtual silence and ambiguity. 

But, like you, that's just my take on it.


I do not think it is as as cold as it could be. She could have very well said nothing to your Warden, had sex with him, done the ritual and no one would have been the wiser. But she didn't do that, she wanted your Warden to know and agree with it.  

Then she made the threat of leaving if you don't do this. So she was kind of bound to her threat (she would have looked stupid if she stayed after threatening to leave).
Not saying it's good. But so far, the way I see Morrigan is that she is far from being cold-hearted (which would have made life easier for her). 

But I guess it's the beauty of the character that she can be seen in so many ways.


That would have been her final love lesson in my view.  And a great time for it.  That confession of love still smoldering in her, might have been well spent at the DR than sending her love off to his death without his never knowing.

I'll certainly agree that her character is definitely interesting.  Here we are after 6 months still chatting it up.  You are just much more satisfied (or accepting?) of the outcome than I.

#1050
KnightofPhoenix

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Then she made the threat of leaving if you don't do this. So she was kind of bound to her threat (she would have looked stupid if she stayed after threatening to leave).
Not saying it's good. But so far, the way I see Morrigan is that she is far from being cold-hearted (which would have made life easier for her). 

But I guess it's the beauty of the character that she can be seen in so many ways.


That would have been her final love lesson in my view.  And a great time for it.  That confession of love still smoldering in her, might have been well spent at the DR than sending her love off to his death without his never knowing.


But from her perspective, she did try to save your life and that was the only guaranteed option. It was a very Morrigan thing to do to leave after your Warden refused to be saved (from her perspective). 
Like I said before, imo, any outright expression of love during the DR would have been interpretted as BS by my Warden. 

Perhaps she could have said that she loved your Warden just before leaving? Possible, but I don't imagine Morrigan doing that. It would seem as if she is begging or wants to be pitied. And Morrigan would never want this.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I'll certainly agree that her character is definitely interesting.  Here we are after 6 months still chatting it up.  You are just much more satisfied (or accepting?) of the outcome than I.


Satisifed that it turned tragically, yes. The fact the epilogue had me in tears is satisfying, as in the romance plot, despite some flaws, was handled extremily well imo (I never had a story, least iof all a romance, bring me on the verge of depression).

Accepting? I do not know yet, that will depend entirely on how Bioware will deal with it.