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[Morrigans God son]

I don't know, I find the thought of Morrigan and Alistair being siblings funny. A mage and a templar, very fitting! Plus they hate each other with a passion. I would love to see their dialog if both ever found out they were related.

xD



Alistair: "Gross" *Swats self in a panic*

Morrigan: *Cringes inwardly* "Tis most disgusting."

[UFOash]

Do Morrigan and Alistair really hate each other?

I always thought they were just joking around.

[ximena]

I do remember Alistair referring to Morrigan as a "b*tch". If I remember correctly. I think it's the conversation where he would ask you what you think of the companions. As for Morrigan, she views Alistair as a complete fool...who she enjoys making fun of.



Now I wonder what happens if Alistair wasn't imprisoned with The Warden in Fort Drakon. Would Morrigan and Alistair be able to work with one another? Haha.

[blademaster7]

ximena wrote...

Now I wonder what happens if Alistair wasn't imprisoned with The Warden in Fort Drakon. Would Morrigan and Alistair be able to work with one another? Haha.

It's possible to have them work together as the rescue party (Alistair must not  be present when you get captured).

I don't remember how it works out, but it can happen.

[ximena]

blademaster7 wrote...

ximena wrote...

Now I wonder what happens if Alistair wasn't imprisoned with The Warden in Fort Drakon. Would Morrigan and Alistair be able to work with one another? Haha.

It's possible to have them work together as the rescue party (Alistair must not  be present when you get captured).

I don't remember how it works out, but it can happen.

Oooh. Interesting. Should probably try that next time. Haha. Thank you.

[Morrigans God son]

ximena wrote...

I do remember Alistair referring to Morrigan as a "b*tch". If I remember correctly. I think it's the conversation where he would ask you what you think of the companions. As for Morrigan, she views Alistair as a complete fool...who she enjoys making fun of.

Now I wonder what happens if Alistair wasn't imprisoned with The Warden in Fort Drakon. Would Morrigan and Alistair be able to work with one another? Haha.

He probably wouldn't do the dark ritual, if it was just him and Riordan.
I think he only agrees to the DR if it saves the PC. My dialog went something like this?

PC: "I won't lie to you. This ritual will produce a child."
Alistair: "You can't be serious? Wow sleep with Morrigan or die, how does someone make that kind of choice."
Alistair: "This ritual....Why would Morrigan want this sort of thing?"
PC: "Morrigan wants the soul of a old god."
Alistair: "WHAT!? Here I was thinking that this child could be an heir to the throne. Not some DRAGON GOD!"
Alistair: "I can't agree to do this. if it comes down to it, I'll take the final blow myself."
(Of course its not the right dialog, but similar.)

*PC STORMS OUT OF THE ROOM, AND DOES DR HIMSELF*

[TheBlackBaron]

ximena wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

ximena wrote...

Now I wonder what happens if Alistair wasn't imprisoned with The Warden in Fort Drakon. Would Morrigan and Alistair be able to work with one another? Haha.

It's possible to have them work together as the rescue party (Alistair must not  be present when you get captured).

I don't remember how it works out, but it can happen.

Oooh. Interesting. Should probably try that next time. Haha. Thank you.

For anybody else that's interested and doesn't have a convienient save, there's a video of the quest with the two of them.

"Must you keep poking me!?"  Heh, Warcraft references. 

Any combination of the girls is great for this, really, or anybody with Barkspawn.

[Brockololly]

ximena wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

ximena wrote...

Now I wonder what happens if Alistair wasn't imprisoned with The Warden in Fort Drakon. Would Morrigan and Alistair be able to work with one another? Haha.

It's possible to have them work together as the rescue party (Alistair must not  be present when you get captured).

I don't remember how it works out, but it can happen.

Oooh. Interesting. Should probably try that next time. Haha. Thank you.

Yeah, my last run through Origins with my canon Cousland I had Morrigan and Alistair be the rescue team. I don't think their dialogue was anything terribly special but it was funny seeing them work together.

I love that scene as it really shows just how terrible of a liar Morrigan is- she is quite terrible at trying to deceive the guards.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
I love that scene as it really shows just how terrible of a liar Morrigan is- she is quite terrible at trying to deceive the guards.

Actually with Sten (and others, like Oghren and Zevran I think), she can lie pretty well and does decieve the guards.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
I love that scene as it really shows just how terrible of a liar Morrigan is- she is quite terrible at trying to deceive the guards.

Actually with Sten (and others, like Oghren and Zevran I think), she can lie pretty well and does decieve the guards.

Yeah, I guess its mostly when Morrigan is dressed up as a Chantry priest that she totall fails at convincing anyone- good ol' Chantry Morrigan haha.

I was looking through the toolset too and found this line when you meet up with that one prisoner from Ostagar in Howe's dungeon:

They died and we left them. In the swamp. The witch. The witch!

And Morrigan says:

Do you suppose he actually saw my mother there, or is he just blaming her in his madness?

Certainly lends more to the notion that while Flemeth appeared as the harmless hag to the Warden, she probably isn't so kind to other less important people that wander into the Wilds.

[UFOash]

Brockololly wrote...

I was looking through the toolset too and found this line when you meet up with that one prisoner from Ostagar in Howe's dungeon:

They died and we left them. In the swamp. The witch. The witch!

And Morrigan says:

Do you suppose he actually saw my mother there, or is he just blaming her in his madness?

Certainly lends more to the notion that while Flemeth appeared as the harmless hag to the Warden, she probably isn't so kind to other less important people that wander into the Wilds.

What exactly is he saying there?
Who died and who left them? When is this said?

[Brockololly]

UFOash wrote...
What exactly is he saying there?
Who died and who left them? When is this said?

Its when you go in Howe's dungeon and the guy is a survivor of Ostagar- he's referring to his fellow troops that were left behind to the darkspawn.

[Shade of Wolf]

PureMethodActor wrote...

Hmm... I never played any of the Fallout games but Fallout 3, and that game I quite enjoyed. Then again I like the Elder Scrolls series, which was very similar, so yeah...

ok we seriously need to get back on topic here, and I guess its an opportunity to bring up the REALLY STUPID POINTLESS HORRIBLE random question I mentioned earlier. I have no shame at all so that is why I will proceed to ask it:

Its a Morrigan romance-themed question, so if you were just friends with Morrigan, I... guess you'll have to sit out . This question is also from a purely RP standpoint, so just think of your own answer


THE question:

Were any of your Morrigan-romancing Wardens virgins before Morrigan? If so, do you think your warden(s) would have cried after the ...ahem... joining because of the emotional effect of the act? (of course they would be too manly to show that in front of Morrigan )

The only reason I could consider this viable in anyway is because its still a statistical fact that some guys can be that emotional after their first experience. And Morrigan is quite the woman, as we all know .


If anyone actually answers this, I'll be surprised. If anyone wants to kill me after such a question, I will NOT be so surprised...

Well I think it depends on the character...I've always considered my elf Mage to be a virgin, living in the tower and all, probably even if he wasn't, although I do remember telling Alistair jokingly (I hope!) that my PC had done it ''many times''
I guess that it was more passionate than wild, but that's just me being naive

[UFOash]

Brockololly wrote...

UFOash wrote...
What exactly is he saying there?
Who died and who left them? When is this said?

Its when you go in Howe's dungeon and the guy is a survivor of Ostagar- he's referring to his fellow troops that were left behind to the darkspawn.

Ah I think I can remember this guy.
But still not sure what hes saying.
Is he saying Flemeth (or at least, "the witch") left them? or that he left them?
If the latter then what does it have to do with Flemeth?

[MoSa09]

UFOash wrote...

Ah I think I can remember this guy.
But still not sure what hes saying.
Is he saying Flemeth (or at least, "the witch") left them? or that he left them?
If the latter then what does it have to do with Flemeth?

He's survivor of Ostagar, found out in the Korcari wilds. And he speaks of the horror he's seen, the swamp and the witch.

[UFOash]

MoSa09 wrote...

UFOash wrote...

Ah I think I can remember this guy.
But still not sure what hes saying.
Is he saying Flemeth (or at least, "the witch") left them? or that he left them?
If the latter then what does it have to do with Flemeth?

He's survivor of Ostagar, found out in the Korcari wilds. And he speaks of the horror he's seen, the swamp and the witch.

Yes but does he say anything about her other than "the witch, the witch!"? is he just blabbering or what?
I was referring to this:

They died and we left them. In the swamp. The witch. The witch!

Is he saying he left the men there (either to die or for the Darkspawn to do whatever with their corpses) or is he saying he left them to Flemeth?

Is Brockolollies comment about Flemeth that he wouldn't be screaming "the witch! the witch!" if Flemeth was in the form she uses to converse with the Warden?

[MoSa09]

[quote]UFOash wrote...



He's survivor of Ostagar, found out in the Korcari wilds. And he speaks of the horror he's seen, the swamp and the witch.

[/quote]

Yes but does he say anything about her other than "the witch, the witch!"? is he just blabbering or what?
I was referring to this:

[quote]They died and we left them. In the swamp. The witch. The witch![/quote]Is he saying he left the men there (either to die or for the Darkspawn to do whatever with their corpses) or is he saying he left them to Flemeth?

Is Brockolollies comment about Flemeth that he wouldn't be screaming "the witch! the witch!" if Flemeth was in the form she uses to converse with the Warden?[/quote]

he's just blabbering. What do you expect? "Its Flemeth, she is an evil woman, and she told me she is just abusing some Warden for her own purpose? "

Its just some random hint, nobody pays any real attention, the thing Gaider would do to keep us speculating if thats important or, equally possible, something completely pointless.

[TheBlackBaron]

PureMethodActor wrote...
Hey, I was wondering if anyone here did a Morrigan/Wynne combination. I have a guess at what happens, but does it end up something like Morrigan disguising herself as a Circle mage and her and Wynne using that angle?

Yeah, in that case they still go dressed as Chantry priests (making it double ironic).

There's also this great exchange after bluffing past the initial pair of guards.

"Fate truly has a sense of humor - that tale should have fooled no one."

"This might be what the Chantry calls, 'the treacherous wiles of magi.'"

"Wiles? Yes, I think perhaps wiles were employed there. What a strange fate to agree with the Chantry."

"Don't think too hard on it, my dear, you'll make yourself sick."

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 07 octobre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Brockololly]

The Big Tease continues.....

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Ryuguy93 wrote...
No, DA2 will be a complety new story and Morrigan's story was completed in the Witch hunt DLC  

Oh no it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

Screw DA2, I want DA3 dammit:wizard:

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:30 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Brockololly wrote...

The Big Tease continues.....

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Ryuguy93 wrote...
No, DA2 will be a complety new story and Morrigan's story was completed in the Witch hunt DLC  

Oh no it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

Screw DA2, I want DA3 dammit:wizard:

...Does Mike just kind of trawl the DA2 forums, looking for opportune moments to toss out stuff like that?

Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Terra_Ex]

Gah, so many posts, so little time, reading walls of speculation text makes a nice change from walls of C++ though so time to reply to some posts, some of these go several pages/days back so apologies for my tardiness. Further apologies for the lack of new Morri pics, don't have the time to pose her atm

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, unless DA2 bombs and they never make another DA game again, Morrigan's story will get closure in some form, probably/hopefully DA3.

But for me, if they ignore or marginalize the events of Witch Hunt in it and try to reduce the Warden/OGB to a codex entry, thats incredibly stupid and for me, would pretty much ruin DA.

As for DA3, well, we'll probably be waiting another 2-3 years after DA2 comes out- so that means 2013 or 2014, unless  they cram Morrigan into an expack or something to DA2.
[/quote]
The further we move from the original game and characters in terms of sequels, the less of an impact Morrigan's return would have, DA3 would be the ideal time if they still want to retain (some of) the Origins fanbase. A short respite as a new PC is tolerable I suppose, particularly if it can push forward Flemeth's side of the plot, but they can't drag it out forever without answers and expect to retain interest. I completely agree with your views on post-WH warden/OGB + codex, whilst I'm sure it'd be perceived as an overreaction by some it'd likely be the nail in the coffin in my eyes, the franchise is on thin ice as is with some of the questionable design decisions made for the second outing. If they could so easily relegate such an integral part of the Origins experience (noted by Gaider as the most important decision) then that speaks volumes.


[quote]
The trust thing is invalid to the conversation, if (sounds strange but bear with me) Flemeth had been the party member, the Warden had fell for her & she had said Morrigan was evil & had to be killed, The Warden (not having heard Morri's side of the story) would have done the same as he did with Flemeth for Morrigan in reality, neither prove who was right because the Warden knows so little & is mearly trusting, as Chantry followers trust there is a maker, that they are doing the right thing but whether they are or not is purely a guess as they only hear Morrigans side in Origins.[/quote]
An interesting view, not completely without merit however Flemeth's views are hard set, the world has wronged her apparently, the Osen/Conobar backstory, she's lived for a far greater timespan than Morrigan, any potential relationship between a "young looking" Flemeth and the Warden would in my eyes be Flemeth playing him completely. Morrigan meanwhile is still impressionable and the warden can give her cause to rethink what Flemeth imprinted. Morrigan requires a leap of faith from the warden, putting trust in someone who is unsure of what the future holds (at the time), we see her grow over the course of the game. Were Flemeth playing the role of Morrigan it would surely all be an act. Morrigan's "side" is more endearing as the player experiences the trials alongside her - Flemeth's plans & betrayal, etc. Even in initial dialogue with Flemeth, the warden can sense she's not all she seems.


[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Well the developers have clearly stated, and are on record, that Morrigan will return, so no nightmare scenario there.  Whether the Warden returns, and certainly the status of the OGB...well, those are definitely big question marks, and perhaps might be relegated to reference and Codex.  You could be right, since the OGB is clearly not a common denominator among all players.

I, for one, certainly agree with you about Hawke.  His presence bodes poorly for what I was hoping for out of the franchise.  A revolving door of PCs and companions is uninteresting.
[/quote]
Well, Morrigan's return without any sign of the warden would be a potential nightmare scenario Barbarossa, I can hardly imagine a better way to simultaneously handwave all the player's actions regarding Morrigan and further enraging a significant fanbase than "codexing" the warden for DA3, though I am somewhat expecting that is exactly what will transpire. The revolving door in my eyes lowers the DA franchise from the lofty heights Origins resides in to that of a thousand other generic barely-related titles.


[quote]UFOash wrote...
Off-topic a little (only a little though), say someone has little memory or cash to throw down the darin & decides not the buy DA2, do you think DA3 (assuming it will ever come to be) will let you import straight from DA:O?

Without Morrigan, The Warden & Ferelden I'm not really sure what DA2 really has to offer, especially looking at the DA2 gameplay posted on here abit ago.[/quote]
I doubt it. On a related note it'd be highly fortuitous if the Morrigan romance flags actually survive the DA2 > DA3 transition.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
[quote]
Can we expect to see Morrigan return in Dragon Age II?

Morrigan’s story s not over even after the Witch Hunt DLC, and although I can’t go too far into it, I can say that she’s not done with this world by any stretch of the imagination.
[/quote]

*sigh* See, normally that would make me happy. But in light of the quotes from Brent Knowles on DA2 and all of the other general nonsense into making DA2 more of an action RPG like ME....ugh. Suffice it to say at this stage the only reason I'm still interested in DA overall is the story. And so help me God, if BioWare screws up the Morrigan story in th future by not bringing back the Warden and Old God Baby right alongside her, I'm done with BioWare. I'll say it again- Morrigan and the world of DA is only interesting through the perspective of the PC- namely, the Warden. You bring back Morrigan while hand waving away the Warden and thats just proof to me that BioWare is clueless.
[/quote]
I share your view Brock, though such an event would merely conclude my interest in the DA series and the current fantasy rpg crop that BioWare is touting. Whilst an undoubtedly myopic view for me it's pretty much mandatory for the warden to be involved (as much as possible, preferably). It's sad to say but it's certainly the kind of mistake I can envision BioWare making. Regarding this quote specifically - didn't Laidlaw also say that DA2 was setting the groundwork for future plotlines (one being Morrigan's) whilst Gaider recently noted that there would be no Claudia Black voiceovers for DA2. Based on the fact we're getting Hawke for DA2, I'd rather not see Morri in DA2 at all if I'm honest.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I actually was perusing the earlier stuff from around the time of DA2's announcement or when Gaider posted- oh what heady days those were!
[/quote]
Oh there are some absolute gems around the time of Gaider's shakedown, back then the dream was still alive and kicking


[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
I am not so sure i'd like that. Laidlaw seems to be the source and driving force of many ideas for DA 2 i do not like, and his all the same phrases and bro emphasis "hotrod samurai style"...

The writing is what still keeps me interested in the franchise, and after all those changes, i would prefer if at least the writers who made Origins the game it were write the remaining story as well.
[/quote]
It makes me think of Resident Evil tbh, where the original creator literally shakes his head at the direction the series has gone in, I believe it's essential to have the original core team on board for any sequel if you want to maintain the series vision. As you've quite rightly noted, DA2 seems to be something else entirely but I'll stop there.


[quote]Skyl4rk wrote...
The prospect of the Warden and OGB being dropped makes me one sad panda.  Even if he/she was just reduced to a blurb in the codex, it still  wouldn't cut it. In fact, it would feel slightly insulting imho. It's like saying, "well thank you for your hard work and dedication. Now  here's your consolation honorary mention prize." That would certainly  leave a sour taste.
[/quote]
My reaction would be the same, it'd be like a new DR in fact and it would indeed be somewhat of an insult as well as a terrible waste of a very strong plot thread. If they did that or offered some other halfhearted explanation for the warden's non-involvement in Morrigan's plotline it'd just kill my interest in the series dead. You start a gripping plot arc that draws you in, yes BioWare, I expect you to not only conclude it, but do so by utilising the player character with the strongest link to that arc.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Thats the conundrum as I see it- if we never had Witch Hunt and perhaps they relegated the Warden to a codex entry or just in passing mentioned how he never found Morrigan and they went on to do whatever they had planned with Morrigan, it would suck, first of all. But IF they have no plans for the Warden going forward and are just going to make the Warden disposable again post WItch Hunt, what was the point?
[/quote]
Hmmm, maybe to sustain this thread's endless speculation and desperate attempts to cling to the small remnant of hope for sensible & direct continuity in the DA series? But truly, if they have no intent to tie in all wardens to Morrigan's plot arc in the future then all they've done is perpetuate the lack of closure that you were left with after Origins. The plot thread still dangles just as it did and hardly progressed from DA:O to WH except to reinforce the warden's tie with Morrigan, we do have three new flags though all of which suggest to me that the warden should come back into play when Morrigan returns.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Basically, the ending to Witch Hunt, for any Warden but especially if you went through the Eluvian with Morrigan, almost neccesitates bringing the Warden back whenever Morrigan comes back, which she will. To bring Morrigan back but not the Warden and then go "Oh hey guys! Look Morrigan is back! Isn't that cool! Look how dark, grim and sexy we made her in our hot rod samurai art style! Isn't that badass!?" would just be completely missing the point.

Whether you gut stabbed Morrigan or went through the portal with her, those consequences need to be dealt with by the Warden, anything else comes across as cheap, stupid and clueless as to why some people want Morrigan back. You bring Morrigan back but not the Warden and that sure as hell isn't my Morrigan.
[/quote]
Again, Brock - I'd likely play it once to see just how exactly BioWare had managed to squander such a potentially great story, then likely just pretend the series concluded with WH. As we've said on countless occasions, it's the player's warden PC that has a relationship with Morrigan, be it love, friendship or hatred and bringing her back alone for a new player character to deal with seems like a failed attempt at fan-service at best. It borders on some of the crossover JRPGs I've played with cameos from well known characters; yes it's nice that they're there yet there's no depth or connection between them and the PC you now control and hence the cameo character is just "there" for the sake of it.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
[quote]Skyl4rk wrote...
I'm not sure if it’s been mentioned before, but did anyone else get the  feeling during Morrigan's “change” speech that the fate of the old gods  are being foreshadowed here? In the part where she says, “…sometimes  change is what sets them free”, I suddenly thought of the old gods and  the taint. I know she’s referring to the people of Thedas, but could  this also apply to the old gods being freed from their prison and/or the taint? What do you guys think?
[/quote]

Thats a good point- I've thought she could be referring to the Old Gods in some way, but always figured the "Change is what sets them free" part referred to the people of Thedas, not necessarily the Old Gods. But it possibly makes more sense if its the Old Gods she is referring to given the possiblity of the Old God baby and everything. I mean, whatever that change is it would seem to be something the Wardens should be mindful of, as she specifically tells the Orlesian to have the Wardens on guard. And the Wardens have a pretty close connection to the Old Gods, what with the Blights and all. Lots of cool possibilities there though.
[/quote]
That's certainly an interesting take on it, as always though it's so vague it could mean anything and is likely subject to change regardless of how we speculate on it. As Brock says, lots ways that could go.


[quote]Deckers wrote...
At any rate, the interview many pages back with Laidlaw had abated my fear of codex entry 'deaded' warden in mirror world or otherwise, the recent light shedding on the ex-lead designer's reasons for leaving however have rained on that parade.
[/quote]
Heh, such is life on the BioWare boards, for every bit of good news you see, moments later some other revelation will manifest restoring the tear-inducing equillibrium of having no idea where the series is heading.


[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
Hah, I was actually browsing my own posts from the very beginnings of the this thread and some speculation to friends of mine on another forum. It's almost upsetting how far off the mark I was with speculation regarding post-Awakening content, DA2, "the Warden isn't done", etc. I was absolutely convinced an expansion, if not a sequel, set in Orlais was coming up next.[/quote]
We all were, there was a fantastic prediction of where the DA series and that plotline could lead on a blog post post somewhere entitled "Dark Ritual Not Disappointing In Context To Potential Sequel Plotline, An Opinion & Reality Check"

http://gameinformer....an-opinion.aspx

The article was written on the assumption that we'd be retaining our warden for DA2, a logical leap since it was touted as the spiritual successor to BG, yeah... Anyway, 'twas a great read (at the time) and representative of what a good number of us thought was going to happen, it had a decent framework at the very least. Whilst I still think Morrigan's plotline is perfectly salvageable post-WH it's essential in my eyes that the warden be a part of it otherwise the whole thing was set up for nothing.


[quote]ximena wrote...
And I say yes to the rant collection too. Maybe we could call it "The Morrigan Fan's (Pessimistic) Manifesto."
[/quote]
Aye, then Gaider can swing by and slap a "myopic" stamp on the front of it.


[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
Tbh, i am not so fond of Awakening. The plotline, the characters, the quests, it all felt incomplete and more "business" like. I mean, in Origins, you could see and almost feel everywhere that this game was written by people who loved it as much as i do, and who put all their love of fantasy and rpgs into the game. Thats what made Origins so great. Awakening, to me, felt more like someone trying to recreate Origins, but completely lacking the passion for the game.
[/quote]
It was like being whisked away somewhere, throughout the whole thing my warden's internal thought processes basically equate to - "Don't want to be here, the sooner I deal with these peons piddling problems, the faster I can get back to what I want to do." Rather than the Origins setup where you become a warden out of necessity, in Awakening you were basically told - go here, do this. Your warden lost all of his allies and without them it was a pretty hollow experience, even moreso when compounded with the new dialogue system, sparse character development and the "find the pixel" attitude to starting conversations. And to think some saw this mechanic as a "step forward" - it boggles the mind.

[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
Or Gaider is getting his revenge. Throughout most of the recent year, he was mocking us if we really imagined Morrigan and Warden marrying, buying a house, get a bunch of children and live a happy ever after. So, the while mommy Morrigan is gone, daddy Warden stays behind in his little fairy mirror realm and takes care of the kids. And while we complain about the lack of our Wardens, he's dies of laughing telling us "i always warned you you should not desire this but you didn't listen, so now you have what you wanted".
[/quote]
Well, I can only think of maybe one or two posters that genuinely seemed to desire such a conclusion, and they were summarily dealt with in one of Gaider's public dressing down posts. I'd like to think that there are enough hints to point toward a certain PC making a comeback but there's more than enough evidence that points the other way as well...


[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Well, you shudder (as I do) because you intuitively know what "think like a general, fight like a Spartan" forebodes for the franchise:  dumbing-down, watering-down, and economizing by "streamlining" many of those pesky RPG "non-essentials" that younger players don't have the attention span for.  Add to that the fact that we now have a voiced protagonist, simplified (I'm sorry, "streamlined") dialogue, no Warden, no Morrigan, no returning companions and (basically) a stand-alone story that relies very little on the events from Origins, and your shudder turns to facepalm.  My other shudder moment is when I constantly hear, "you push a button and something happens."

[/quote]
I daresay such a slogan attracts the "wrong sort" of player to the franchise, a knock on effect of which is a game by game shift further away from what made the original great in order to cater to the new found saviors of the franchise.

Couldn't agree more with the "something awesome happens" comment. I'd apply that kind of design philosophy to a game like say, Bayonetta, an action-oriented title where something awesome does indeed happen when you push a button. Traditionally, I expect something very different from a BioWare product - a lengthy, well written, engaging storyline, married with the hope of continuity - not the style over substance shift that I'm observing in DA2. With a BioWare title, the "something awesome" should be coming through the quality of the narrative and characters, not via blood splatters, visual flair, massive damage, voiceovers and a "cinematic experience" totalling half the length of its predecessor.


[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
In short, you're worried (as I am) that we're looking at a "streamlining" process like we saw from ME1 to ME2 which focuses on new and younger players, to the detriment of the current fan base.  But at least in ME2 there was a real attempt to bridge ME1 players into the ME2 story by bringing your companions back, or at least letting you interact with some of them in a meaningful way, not to mention the PC returns.  We will have nothing approaching meaningful from Origins in DA2, since Hawke is the new greatest man/woman in the universe...I mean, the Warden is sooo last year afterall.

I come from Bro-ville, I liked Origins precisely because it wasn't that. Pity really.
[/quote]
Ah, but will Hawke's actions have any meaning either, we know the Chantry falls, do's the hows and whys of what actually happened even matter? And yes, you're a shining example of how people can be brought back from the "dark side" and become enraptured by a traditional rpg, you've even taken it a step further and become a pc gamer, we're all very proud of you


[quote]ejoslin wrote...
The writers have heard the complaints, and have basically said, "Deal with it." DA2 is for a different audience than DA1 was for; I'm not sure why they went this route, but they did. It's kind of sad, because if DA:O had not been the absolutely amazing success it had been, with the younger crowd complaining, perhaps DA2 would not be dumbed down. Or perhaps it would not be made at all.
[/quote]
I agree completely, however where are these "complaints" (that instigated the changes) coming from exactly. I would have thought that the Origins sales spoke for themselves and I see precious few threads across the net focusing on "ZOMG, no co-op/teh combat sucks, too much text, etc" so presumably some connection was made that since Mass Effect was popular, DA must be brought more in line with that framework. It's a shame really, but the wheel, its "intention" icons and of course VO will completely detach me from Hawke from the off.


[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
Try telling that to a member of No Mutants Allowed. Fallout 3 has a broken base that makes our own communitie's split over DA2 look like a minor hairline fracture.
[/quote]
Both sides have valid points, but without Bethesda acquiring the rights, Fallout would still be a dead series. Considering the timespan between Fallout 2's release and Fallout 3 you could justify most of the changes. Crucially though, the first person narrative was maintained, so the PC you embody is still "you." VATS was a naturally progression from the targetting system of F1 & 2 and the feel of the environment was still distinctly "Fallout."


[quote]PureMethodActor wrote...
THE question:

Were any of your Morrigan-romancing Wardens virgins before Morrigan? If so, do you think your warden(s) would have cried after the ...ahem... joining because of the emotional effect of the act? (of course they would be too manly to show that in front of Morrigan.)
[/quote]
Heh, highly doubtful methinks [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie].

[quote]UFOash wrote...
Do Morrigan and Alistair really hate each other?

I always thought they were just joking around.
[/quote]
Most definitely. There's even a Gaider quote floating around somewhere where he mentions that Morrigan despises him.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
The reception to DA2 will be interesting if its as Mass Effected up as it would seem. Its going to be compared to ME by reviewers but ME2 scored very well with most reviewers and I think DA2 will be compared negatively to it in some quarters for sort of losing the identity DA established with Origins. Surely some people will like it, but the sales will be interesting- I just don't think BioWare realizes that the Bros they're courting don't give a hoot about a game with Wizards and Dragons- no matter how much blood and ME they put into it.  Its just not going to happen. And if they successfully alienate the people that liked Origins, well bravo, DA is likely dead in water.
/pessimism

And I know Gaider posted recently that what they're doing in DA2 isn't the end all be all of how they'll approach games going forward, but I think its pretty damn clear BioWare's new shtick is voice acted everything which is just stupid beyond belief. Here is what Gaider posted not too long ago:

[quote]We're not apologetic about these changes, as we think there are things  about Origins that needed improvement. Maybe not the same things some of you thought, but there you are. There are also things about Origins we  kept and loved, and some of the things we changed we might even return  to in the future-- this is one project, not a Manifesto of RPG Intent  for all the world to bow down before. [/quote]
I'm not taking any hope away from that as a return to silent PC though- I think that ship has sailed sadly.

[/quote]
I've seen a fair few unbiased publications raising some eyebrows at the direction taken in DA2. Whilst there is certainly a need for an iterative development cycle in created a sequel and to take an objective look at the product you've developed (moreso now than back in the days of BG2) a general rule of thumb is not to alienate or otherwise aggravate your existing fanbase. The way certain things were presented - Hawke (BW's defined character) is the "most important" haven't done them any favours.

On Gaider's stuff- the first two lines are just generic "this is the DA2 vision, deal with it" spiel so nothing new there. And in true Gaider fashion, he balances it out immediately after by saying "maybe we'll go back." While Gaider is certainly one of the most active devs on the boards, I'd say the final decisions are out of his hands and more in the hands of EA and what kind of game they want to finance. As you mentioned, it'll come down to sales and yeah I can't see the silent PC making a comeback, so that ship took quite a few of BioWare's staple features with it when it sailed. Sadly BioWare has become enamoured with a voiced protagonist and for me, the many losses across all areas of gameplay aren't worth a few gains in the cinematic experience department.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
This article from one of the audio designers at Media Molecule sums up my thoughts on ME vs. DAO player VO nicely. (This is the abominable youtube video mentioned in the blog post).
[/quote]
Good god, someone should forward that to BioWare. The article is absolutely spot on. We flocked to DA:O because of it's silent protagonist setup,
allowing you to easily assume the role of the warden, affording us one of the most successful story-intensive experiences of the decade. The
"progression" from this is to take away from that sense of immersion it seems...


I also enjoyed the following commentary about the "text adventure" aspects of DA:O-
[quote]
Was this dialogue meant to be Scooby-Doo bad as part of some in-joke at Bioware that they’d all rather be making intelligent text adventures than spoon-fed talkies with hastily written and recorded dialogue that treats the audience for their adult rated games like children? Who knows? But I found this “text adventure” sequence magical – the voices, sounds and images I experienced whilst reading about and interacting with that spirit were better than anything else I found in the entire game. Point is, this wasn’t just a simple text adventure – interacting with the visuals, music, sound (that ambiguous yet suggestive whispering voice!) and text all added up to something which cannot be experienced in any other medium (including most games).[/quote]
... which is something Barbarossa should be experiencing if he makes it through Nier (though in that case it's more "sound novel" as the sound and music adapt to the words on screen.) I absolutely cannot overstate how powerful pure text can be for evoking an emotional response from the player, something "VO for everything" works against. Sometimes the best results come from looking back and building on those foundations, rather that trying to amp everything up to the max for the "modern crowd."


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I guess its mostly when Morrigan is dressed up as a Chantry priest that she totally fails at convincing anyone- good ol' Chantry Morrigan haha.

I was looking through the toolset too and found this line when you meet up with that one prisoner from Ostagar in Howe's dungeon:
[/quote]
Loved that part - the guard's like "you expect me to believe you're a priest?" leaving Morrigan with little recourse [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie].

[quote]UFOash wrote...
Is he saying he left the men there (either to die or for the Darkspawn to do whatever with their corpses) or is he saying he left them to Flemeth?

Is Brockolollies comment about Flemeth that he wouldn't be screaming "the witch! the witch!" if Flemeth was in the form she uses to converse with the Warden?
[/quote]
Just another allusion to Flemeth not being all she seems, I'd say. Much like the two failed warden candidates she so readily dismisses, I imagine she has little time for those who aren't of use to her.



[quote]Brockololly wrote...

The Big Tease continues.....

[quote]Mike Laidlaw wrote...

[quote]Ryuguy93 wrote...
No, DA2 will be a complety new story and Morrigan's story was completed in the Witch hunt DLC  [/quote]

Oh no it wasn't. Not by a long shot.

[/quote]
Screw DA2, I want DA3 dammit[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

Hmmm...
well going off what he said regarding Witch Hunt, he knows what Morri
fans want (the warden's continued involvement in the Morri/Flemeth arc)... the question is does this understanding extend to DA3...

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 08 octobre 2010 - 12:45 .

[TheBlackBaron]

David Gaider wrote...

RubiconI7 wrote...
-From
the previous point, we can deduce that what they learned from Origins
and what they will learn from DA2 will be inherently different in some
ways and not so fundumentally diferent in other ways.

Now, can we
theorize that since this is a new direction, if they find out that it
does not work as well as before, or they find that something else may
work better, they will be able to dish out better products?

Since
this is only one game concerning the world of Thedas and the series
focuses on the world instead of any one character (Mass Effect),
shouldn't we stop and think about how taking new directions benefits
Bioware making better games instead of how this one DA2 may screw up in spectacular ways before we have even played it yet?

It's
true, DA3 could indeed be very different from DA2. No doubt some of the
things we try will work, others will not work as well as we hoped.
Still more, our circumstances may again change forcing us to do things
differently regardless of how well we thought they worked. That's how
the cookie crumbles.

That's...ominous. EA may not be the same as they once were, but that certainly brings back memories of the "Evil Empire" days.

Naturally some people will say "well we're
telling them that we don't like how it works so they'll change it, if
not now than for the future". We can only take those with a giant grain
of salt, of course, since they're judging this based on their idea of
features that have very little to do with the game we're making. It'll
be easier to have reasoned feedback once the game is actually in their
hands, though truth be told I imagine (on these forums, anyhow) it will
be largely the same in character-- people who hate it, and people who
love it, and never the twain shall meet. Some people will be so
determined to hate it that they'll only feel justified by seeing what
they despise come to life, some people will be won over, some people
will be disappointed and come here with heartfelt lamentations of how
they once loved us but never again, and some people will be overjoyed...
and there will be new fans, as well, who will wonder what all the fuss
is about.

But that's how it goes. It's very dramatic of course
but that's what these forums are always like. Every single feature or
issue will make or break the entire experience, people throwing
themselves on their swords in anguish writing purplish posts of
despair... well, you know. Such is how it goes. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Not
to make light of it, really, but the whole polarizing aspect does seem a
bit strange if you sit back and actually think about it. As it is, of
course we'll see for ourselves how things work out and how the changes
are received (not only on these forums but, you know, other places as
well) and maybe even have a few thoughts of our own on the direction
we'd like to go with the series ("we" meaning us as a company, my part
of it is pretty small).

That's kind of how it rolls with internet forums, though. Every single detail is either a massive improvement over the crappy original, or has ruined forever a flawless masterpiece.

Anyhow, I suppose you could qualify that last sentence as more Gaider teasing.

[Esbatty]

Brockololly wrote...

I was wondering where I heard it and its actually in the friendship talk she gives a male Warden:

I have been with men physically, those who lusted after me and even professed love... but friendship with a man? I did not know 'twas even possible.

My warden, if given this line whilst in the romance, upon having heard this line would be preparing to raise the Korcari Wilds to the ground seeing as he can't do the same to Lothering. And he is a "Chantry Board's biggest supporter" kinda guy.

Warden: Alright, here are those poultices you wanted... *hestitates* did you sleep with that dark haired woman?
Villager: Uhm, no.
Warden: Good *hands them over*

Warden: Alright little boy I found your- *hesitates* did you sleep with that dark haired woman?
Little Boy: I miss my mommy.
Warden: Well she's dead, now stop evading my questions.

Warden: So I killed all the ban- did you sleep with that dark
Morrigan: I maybe experienced in the ways of physical pleasure but I am -NOT- a ****.
Warden: Right, 'cause ****s charge for their services.
Morrigan: ... *ZAP*
Warden: I'm a toad aren't I?
Alistair: I warned you.
Warden: Don't let Dog eat me.
Alistair: He bit me the last time I tried to take his food.
Warden: Tell her I'm sorry and that I'll start taking bribes again.