Epic long post time- brace yourselves! XD
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The further we move from the original game and characters in terms of sequels, the less of an impact Morrigan's return would have, DA3 would be the ideal time if they still want to retain (some of) the Origins fanbase. A short respite as a new PC is tolerable I suppose, particularly if it can push forward Flemeth's side of the plot, but they can't drag it out forever without answers and expect to retain interest.[/quote]
If handled properly with Hawke in DA2, that switch of POV's to Hawke to see things from Flemeth's view could be very interesting. Yet on its own its only interesting to a certain extent- it could potentially be freakin' awesome if they bring everything back together come DA3, with the Warden/Morrigan/Flemeth/OGB/Hawke converging, making what seemed disparate storylines come together. Will they do that and in a reasonable time frame though? I don't know- I hope so, but video game development is wrought with uncertainty and changes in plans.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I completely agree with your views on post-WH warden/OGB + codex, whilst I'm sure it'd be perceived as an overreaction by some it'd likely be the nail in the coffin in my eyes, the franchise is on thin ice as is with some of the questionable design decisions made for the second outing. If they could so easily relegate such an integral part of the Origins experience (noted by Gaider as the most important decision) then that speaks volumes.[/quote]
Right, I mean its easy for the devs to scoff at players that may be emotionally invested in certain characters or plot lines since they know where things are headed. Yet for us Morrigan/Warden fans, we have no clue whats down the road or if there even is a road left for the Wardens romancing Morrigan. Witch Hunt certainly implied that there is more story left for the Warden, but given some of the choices being made for DA2, who knows what DA3 will look like? If it does poorly, does that mean the devs push it farther down the ME road? Or if it does really well, do they similarly take the action RPG angle even further?
In one of the
Gamescom interviews with Ray and Greg, they did acknowledge how one of the criticisms of ME2 was that the RPG elements weren't visible enough so they would be working on enriching those for ME3. I think I must have posted that before a while ago, but they start talking about the ME2 RPG stuff at about the 40 second mark.Thats encouraging, but I'll believe it when I see it. I don't exactly trust BioWare's marketing these days. I liked Witch Hunt but the marketing claims made for it were more often than not straight up fabrications and lies- and I think that bit them in the ass when it came to inflated expectations some people had in terms of what reviewers and others expected from Morrigan in terms of answers.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Morrigan requires a leap of faith from the warden, putting trust in someone who is unsure of what the future holds (at the time), we see her grow over the course of the game. Were Flemeth playing the role of Morrigan it would surely all be an act. Morrigan's "side" is more endearing as the player experiences the trials alongside her - Flemeth's plans & betrayal, etc. Even in initial dialogue with Flemeth, the warden can sense she's not all she seems.[/quote]
Morrigan seems human and very fallible once you get through her tough outer shell in Origins. She'd like to appear as cold and enigmatic as Flemeth to outsiders I think, but once she starts falling in love with the Warden or befriending the Warden, you can see that there is more to Morrigan than simply a icy Witch of the Wilds. She certainly retains her snark and nasty streak, but she is much more than that as a character.
Flemeth may have been more human like Morrigan at some point in time, but it sure as hell seems she is no longer much in the way of a normal human being with feelings and emotions. She is rather dead set in her ways and scheming up something big.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well, Morrigan's return without any sign of the warden would be a potential nightmare scenario Barbarossa, I can hardly imagine a better way to simultaneously handwave all the player's actions regarding Morrigan and further enraging a significant fanbase than "codexing" the warden for DA3, though I am somewhat expecting that is exactly what will transpire.[/quote]
Yeah, I can't say I'd be surprised if that happened. Well, I would be surprised because surely BioWare can't be that aloof could they? Just doing something like that, especially given how WH ends would just be so mind numbingly stupid and myopic. Surely they could do it, but I'd hope they wouldn't. But yeah....maybe its time for a reminder "hope"- thats a four letter word around here after all:
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I doubt it. On a related note it'd be highly fortuitous if the Morrigan romance flags actually survive the DA2 > DA3 transition.[/quote]
Oh God.... yeah, it will be very telling to see how many of our imported choices get botched in the transfer from DAO to DA2, let alone stuff going from DAO to DA3 and beyond. Considering how they bungled Witch Hunt, a DLC where the import is essential to the whole damn thing, even after knowing that the flags were goofed for a long time since Origins came out, I just hope a toolset update is released so that we can fix the inevitable bugs and screwups ourselves. Or at least that now they've consolidated the importing process to such an extent internally so that they don't have lame brain flags like STILL_IN_LOVE hanging around. Ugh...
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I share your view Brock, though such an event would merely conclude my interest in the DA series and the current fantasy rpg crop that BioWare is touting. Whilst an undoubtedly myopic view for me it's pretty much mandatory for the warden to be involved (as much as possible, preferably). It's sad to say but it's certainly the kind of mistake I can envision BioWare making.[/quote]
Like I've posted several times on the DA2 forums and I'd bet Laidlaw has seen, I'm mostly interested in DA2 as a bridge to the continuation of the Morrigan/Warden story in DA3, hopefully. If Morrigan and the Warden walking off into the Eluvian was supposed to be "The End" for their story and they'd be left to legend going forward, I'd have been fine with that and happy to move on to Hawke or whatever new PC they cook up. But given that they've said Morrigan's story isn't over by a long shot, well, considering Morrigan told my Warden that they'd face the future together, if my Warden's decision to go through the Eluvian and be Morrigan and the OGB gets hand waved away, seriously, whats the point of anything in DA?
I know that sounds terribly melodramatic, but really, thats got to be one of the biggest choices you can make and they'd simply give the Warden the Viconia treatment? No thanks. Although, admittedly we're cooking up a worst case scenario of the Warden being relegated to a meaningless codex entry. What if the Warden comes back as an NPC? Or what if the by the time we get to DA3, it makes sense for whatever reason that the Warden not show up? The simple solution is to just bring the Warden back as PC, but for many reasons we've gone over, I'm skeptical as hell that'll happen despite the wishy washy injections of hope Gaider always seems to make when confronted with that question.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Regarding this quote specifically - didn't Laidlaw also say that DA2 was setting the groundwork for future plotlines (one being Morrigan's) whilst Gaider recently noted that there would be no Claudia Black voiceovers for DA2. Based on the fact we're getting Hawke for DA2, I'd rather not see Morri in DA2 at all if I'm honest.[/quote]
Oh sure, I think its this
Laidlaw interview you're thinking of that says the stuff Hawke does and the events of DA2 set the stage for the continuation of Morrigan's story. But yeah, one of the big concerns prior to Witch Hunt was that Morrigan would show up in DA2, conveniently forgetting the Warden and rushing off into Hawke's arms. So I'm happy Witch Hunt stops that from happening. Surely we'll have references to Morrigan in DA2, likely from Flemeth, but considering how Gaider said there will be no Claudia Black VO, its highly highly unlikely we'll actually see Morrigan. About the only way that we would see her would simply be some distant cameo or maybe something at the end where we see Morrigan stepping out of the Eluvian only to end on some cliffhanger or something. BUt we'll probably not see her- so long as DA2 doesn't do anything to screw Morrigan, OGB or the Warden over, I'll be happy storywise.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Oh there are some absolute gems around the time of Gaider's shakedown, back then the dream was still alive and kicking
[/quote]
Ah yes, "For over a thousand generations, the developers at BioWare were the guardians of Silent PC's and cRPGs in the Gaming World. Before the dark times... before the EA Empire."
/Obi Wan Kenobi'd
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
It makes me think of Resident Evil tbh, where the original creator literally shakes his head at the direction the series has gone in, I believe it's essential to have the original core team on board for any sequel if you want to maintain the series vision. As you've quite rightly noted, DA2 seems to be something else entirely but I'll stop there.[/quote]
Yup- the thing that people in the DA2 forums want to deny is that the 2 guys that left BioWare, Dan Tudge and Brent Knowles weren't 2 lowly guys. They were the guys responsible for pretty much the overall direction of DA prior to leaving. Thats like the President and Vice President of the US resigning and people saying thats not a big deal going forward. I'll stop there so as to not sully the Morrigan thread with DA2 ranting, lest we get locked down. If you do feel like ranting, I've taken most of my DA2 ranting to
The Happy Couch- feel free to join in when the mood strikes!
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
My reaction would be the same, it'd be like a new DR in fact and it would indeed be somewhat of an insult as well as a terrible waste of a very strong plot thread. If they did that or offered some other halfhearted explanation for the warden's non-involvement in Morrigan's plotline it'd just kill my interest in the series dead. You start a gripping plot arc that draws you in, yes BioWare, I expect you to not only conclude it, but do so by utilising the player character with the strongest link to that arc.[/quote]
Bingo, Terra. Witch Hunt left things fairly well off for Morrigan and the Warden. For that I'm grateful. Yet, I don't expect it to be all happy fun times from here on out. But at least give the Warden the chance to be with Morrigan during the inevitable turmoil to come and don't simply handcuff the player into accepting some contrived reason for the Warden's absence when in reality the reason for the Warden not being there is either because they don't want to put the effort into continuity or they can't make the Warden a voiced PC since thats BIoWare's shtick now.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
But truly, if they have no intent to tie in all wardens to Morrigan's plot arc in the future then all they've done is perpetuate the lack of closure that you were left with after Origins. The plot thread still dangles just as it did and hardly progressed from DA:O to WH except to reinforce the warden's tie with Morrigan, we do have three new flags though all of which suggest to me that the warden should come back into play when Morrigan returns.[/quote]
The writing is certainly on the wall as to suggest the Warden's continued involvement in Morrigan's story, whether an Orlesian, friendly, enemy, or lover. Of course we came up with plenty of seemingly plausible reasons for how DA2 should have been with the Warden and Morrigan and look how that turned out....meh.
And like you've said, handwaving away the Warden simply leaves you right where you were after the DR ending, hell its even worse than that really.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Again, Brock - I'd likely play it once to see just how exactly BioWare had managed to squander such a potentially great story, then likely just pretend the series concluded with WH. As we've said on countless occasions, it's the player's warden PC that has a relationship with Morrigan, be it love, friendship or hatred and bringing her back alone for a new player character to deal with seems like a failed attempt at fan-service at best. It borders on some of the crossover JRPGs I've played with cameos from well known characters; yes it's nice that they're there yet there's no depth or connection between them and the PC you now control and hence the cameo character is just "there" for the sake of it. [/quote]
Bringing Morrigan back without the Warden would show to me that BioWare just doesn't "get it" with respect to why people like characters. They don't like the characters in a vacuum, they like the characters in relation to how they've interacted with your PC. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily want some new DA2 NPC to be stuck with the Warden in DA3 for the hell of it.
If news broke that DA3 brought back Morrigan in a major way but the Warden was no where to be found, I sure as hell wouldn't buy it at launch and at best during a dirt cheap Steam sale. Most likely I'd just read about the story or watch the inevitable youtube videos. I know its fashionable to express outrage and "boycott" games and such but honestly, the barrier to exit the DA franchise is really, really low. I don't buy a ton of games each year, but even Origins, I've spent well over $100 on that between DLC and Awakening and the core game. There are certainly other games I could have spent that money on and certainly many, many games coming out next year I'm looking forward to just as much. And I think thats why its important to keep DA a traditional RPG- if it came down to say DA2 or ME3, I'd take ME3- I don't need DA to become some action RPG knock off.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
We all were, there was a fantastic prediction of where the DA series and that plotline could lead on a blog post post somewhere entitled "Dark Ritual Not Disappointing In Context To Potential Sequel Plotline, An Opinion & Reality Check"
http://gameinformer....an-opinion.aspxThe article was written on the assumption that we'd be retaining our warden for DA2, a logical leap since it was touted as the spiritual successor to BG, yeah... Anyway, 'twas a great read (at the time) and representative of what a good number of us thought was going to happen, it had a decent framework at the very least. Whilst I still think Morrigan's plotline is perfectly salvageable post-WH it's essential in my eyes that the warden be a part of it otherwise the whole thing was set up for nothing.[/quote]
Yeah, I remember that post....*sigh* Like Laidlaw mentioned in that interview above, I almost think BioWare is trying to be too clever in avoiding the seemingly "obvious" plots for development moving forward. You can only milk things out like Morrigan's plot for so long before it loses all momentum. I mean, it would be like after The Empire Strikes Back, you have instead of Return of the Jedi, the epic tale of random Ewok's Rise to Power on the mean streets of Kashyyk, but oh! You have a cameo from Darth Vader in there too, because clearly the fans' love for Vader was simply because he was the big bad villain not the fact that in the last movie he was revealed to be Luke's dad.....ugh.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]ximena wrote...
And I say yes to the rant collection too. Maybe we could call it "The Morrigan Fan's (Pessimistic) Manifesto."
[/quote]
Aye, then Gaider can swing by and slap a "myopic" stamp on the front of it.[/quote]
Seal of Approval, no?
![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Your warden lost all of his allies and without them it was a pretty hollow experience, even moreso when compounded with the new dialogue system, sparse character development and the "find the pixel" attitude to starting conversations. And to think some saw this mechanic as a "step forward" - it boggles the mind.[/quote]
Thats one of my concerns for DA2- first, that the framed narrative ends up pushing you along too much. To make an analogy, lets view Origins as a restaurant. You sit down, can order when you're ready, no pressure from the server, have a nice appetizer (Origin story), a fulfilling main course that is not only yummy but filling and you even get a nice desert and an after dinner mint (playable epilogue). Fantastic. Awakening on the other hand is like all of a sudden the restaurant is under new management with many of the same chefs, but where the server is getting all up in your face pressuring you to order, so you order, get your meal and its ok, nothing special, but even before you're finished, the server takes your plate and gives you the bill and shoves you out the door. The food (story)may have been ok, but everything just felt too damned rushed and was in no way filling or satsfying leaving you wanting more. The question is, is DA2 under new management?
/brilliant anaolgy, I know:blink:
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Couldn't agree more with the "something awesome happens" comment. I'd apply that kind of design philosophy to a game like say, Bayonetta, an action-oriented title where something awesome does indeed happen when you push a button. Traditionally, I expect something very different from a BioWare product - a lengthy, well written, engaging storyline, married with the hope of continuity - not the style over substance shift that I'm observing in DA2. With a BioWare title, the "something awesome" should be coming through the quality of the narrative and characters, not via blood splatters, visual flair, massive damage, voiceovers and a "cinematic experience" totalling half the length of its predecessor. [/quote]
The funny thing is that of all the things they could have adopted from ME to bring over to DA, its NOT the continuity of the main character into a sequel. Ugh.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I agree completely, however where are these "complaints" (that instigated the changes) coming from exactly. I would have thought that the Origins sales spoke for themselves and I see precious few threads across the net focusing on "ZOMG, no co-op/teh combat sucks, too much text, etc" so presumably some connection was made that since Mass Effect was popular, DA must be brought more in line with that framework. It's a shame really, but the wheel, its "intention" icons and of course VO will completely detach me from Hawke from the off.[/quote]
As I've said many times, I enjoyed ME1 and ME2 although not as much as I enjoyed DAO. They're all enjoyable games precisely for the fact that they are all very different types of RPGs.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I've seen a fair few unbiased publications raising some eyebrows at the direction taken in DA2. Whilst there is certainly a need for an iterative development cycle in created a sequel and to take an objective look at the product you've developed (moreso now than back in the days of BG2) a general rule of thumb is not to alienate or otherwise aggravate your existing fanbase. The way certain things were presented - Hawke (BW's defined character) is the "most important" haven't done them any favours.[/quote]
Right- BioWare's "streamlining" is almost akin to a bad meme. We don't know if thats exactly what will happen to DA2, but the marketing sure as hell isn't doing them any favors.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
While Gaider is certainly one of the most active devs on the boards, I'd say the final decisions are out of his hands and more in the hands of EA and what kind of game they want to finance. [/quote]
And thats why the departure of Dan Tudge and Brent Knowles, those very sort of upper level guys making the big decisions on DA, worries me so much. Especially given that the only output under the new leadership has been Awakening and the DLC.... eeek. Pretty much, Darrah is the guy now that'll have the say as to what sort of game and what sort of story Gaider writes- he provides the overview and its up to Gaider and the writers to fill it in.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
This
article from one of the audio designers at Media Molecule sums up my thoughts on ME vs. DAO player VO nicely. (This is the abominable
youtube video mentioned in the blog post).
[/quote]
Good god, someone should forward that to BioWare. The article is absolutely spot on. We flocked to DA:O because of it's silent protagonist setup, allowing you to easily assume the role of the warden, affording us one of the most successful story-intensive experiences of the decade. The "progression" from this is to take away from that sense of immersion it seems... [/quote]
Yup, that article just hits every point about why the silent PC is best in a first person narrative, which I think they're trying to paint Hawke's story as.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I also enjoyed the following commentary about the "text adventure" aspects of DA:O-
*snip*
I absolutely cannot overstate how powerful pure text can be for evoking an emotional response from the player, something "VO for everything" works against. Sometimes the best results come from looking back and building on those foundations, rather that trying to amp everything up to the max for the "modern crowd." [/quote]
Exactly- I have vivid memories of the part where you found the Arcane Warrior spirit and its stuff that no cutscene or movie could have made as memorable. The same thing in ME1 when you found that ancient orb that described what I think were the Protheans visiting ancient earth. That was unexpected and awesome. I just find it funny that Gaider and other devs wag their finger at posters on here for wanting MOAR! and yet it would seem all BioWare is doing is blindly buying into MOAR! by voice acting everything and not using it as a tool to be used in moderation.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Just another allusion to Flemeth not being all she seems, I'd say. Much like the two failed warden candidates she so readily dismisses, I imagine she has little time for those who aren't of use to her.[/quote]
Yup, or like in The Stolen Throne with all of the dead people strung up outside her hut. She's only a nice old lady to the Wardens cause she is scheming something up, just as she did with Maric and Loghain and will with Hawke.
[quote]Morrigans God son wrote...
Right so...Morrigan's story is not over but...She won't be appearing in DA2? So does that mean DA3? I thought they didn't know if there would be a DA3 yet, geeez. Anyways I hope Morrigan will be with the warden when she does show up. Otherwise I'll be like WTF? [/quote]
Amen. There will be WTF?'s across the world over if such a dark day decends. Maker help us all.
[quote]bl00dsh0t wrote...
The only thing that "Morrigan's story isn't over" means is that if DA2 does well we might have a snowballs chance in hell to see her again in DA3 ;D They could come back with the same crap again in DA3 where Morrigan needs to ally herself with new pc nr. 3 and most likely will be romancable xD
Man I am soo not in a good mood today
Keep up the epic ranting folks, quite a joy to read while i lurk in the thread hoping for the allmighty brockmeister to find us moar morrigan related quotes
[/quote]
Haha- no new Morrigan quotes necessarily, although you have me to blame per Laidlaw for not having any new DA2 gameplay videos. And I also apparently wield great power as I inadvertantly caused the game to be
delayed until 2014 :
[quote]Mike Laidlaw wrote...
[quote]CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Start nagging the PR department to let you show it then, sure fire way to end the debate. Plenty of games get trailers months and sometimes years before release. We're 5 months out, I would think you guys would have something you're ready to show by now.
[/quote]
It would have been out by now, but we push it back a day everytime Brock says that we should show gameplay, so, at this rate you will see it in ..... *does some quick math*....2014.
[/quote]
And another tidbit is the most recent
BioWare DA2 podcast, where Gaider is interviewed. Its good stuff, as Gaider goes into some new stuff like confirming that the Dalish in question regarding the package Hawke needs to deliver per Flemeth are indeed the same Dalish clan from Origins who have now moved north to the Free Marches.
And then you have this exchange where Gaider brings up the whole "Change" thing from Witch Hunt (
transcript courtesy of SirOccam--> VW= Victor Wachter, DG= David Gaider)
[quote]
VW: As the Dragon Age--specifically "the Dragon Age," not necessarily the franchise, but the fictional concept of the Dragon Age...refers to an era in the history of the world of Thedas--as we go through multiple games, and even, I guess, multiple installments of other media, is there an overarching theme that will play itself out over multiple games?
DG:
Well, we have certain, I would say "slow-burning", plots that are building up to something. I think lots of people even who just played Origins can get a sense of that, perhaps. But as the story goes in the world, at the beginning of the Dragon Age, that's when dragons reappeared, and the feeling was that it was a portent for massive change in the coming Age. And I think that is really essentially what the theme is. For those people who played [Witch Hunt] recently, it's something that got brought up in that story, that there is change coming, and we don't mean that in a sort of tongue-in-cheek way. We mean it in a very literal sense. One of the whole reasons that we were excited about creating our own IP is that it opens up the possibility of us doing something that we weren't able to previously. When you're working in someone else's intellectual property, you have to sort of keep it intact, because it's theirs, right? You can't go and sort of kick down the sandcastle, but as far as we're concerned, what's the point of building a sandcastle unless you get to kick it down?[/quote]
Now thats interesting. I don't know though, doesn't it seem a bit too soon to be metaphorically knocking down the sandcastle? We've hardly seen Thedas yet. I 'm wondering just how BIG this change is- something earthly like just the Chantry collapsing or something otherworldly like a massive tear in the Veil letting the Fade come through and merge or some sort of WoW Cataclysm type event that maybe geographically shakes up Ferelden or something? Or is it the return of the Old Gods?
Like I've said before lets just skip to DA3 dammit!!!!
And here is "Lets make kissy face" Morrigan:):
Modifié par Brockololly, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:57 .
Guest_PureMethodActor_*
Retour en haut
