16183 réponses à ce sujet

[revan11exile]

So i finally played through Witch Hunt and Morrigan and my Warden went into the Mirror World.So want i wanted to know is how many years does Morrigan and the Warden plan on saying in their,is the Mirror World going be like the Hyerbolic Time Chamber in Dragon Ball Z were if you spend 1 year in it it means 2 days in the outside world?

[Esbatty]

ximena wrote...

*ninjas in Morrigan art*



*flies out of thread*

*squeeeeeeeeeeeee*

It took me a while to connect that you're the same Ximena from Deviant Art. I spent an entire half of a graveyard shift  reading/rereading Demon Within. Good times. My boss was pissed, but good times nonetheless.

...

*ahem*

But back to the whole idea of the 10 year jump and the fact The Taint takes 20 to 30 years to kick in for the Calling. If they jumped through the mirror to go somewhere for the Old God Child and or Morrigan to have time to gather power for the return to Thedas, DA3 could see the return of the Warden (be it our Warden or the Orlesian Warden we created) either return with Morrigan/Family in tow or to meet her/them upon their return.

[TheBlackBaron]

Siduri wrote...

So, I know it's stupid to jump into a thread without reading the prior discussion, but it's 423 pages long and
I...just...caaaaaan't. I have a theory, though, that Morrigan is herself a dragon (or, rather, dragon-blooded). Has this been discussed already ad infinitum?

Yeah, there was a blog post linked a while back positing that Flemeth was a member of the Dragon Cult and
that Morrigan herself had dragon blood - that explained the golden eyes. Although it should be noted that everyday humans can have golden eyes, it's just rare for the pigments to shake down that way (it being a variant of amber eyes, themselves not very common).

Anyhow, it was an interesting read, although I personally disagreed with some of the author's conclusions.

Captain Uccisore wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Anyway, the point of my post is that I've never seen Morrigan's line in that picture before (or I can't remember it). When does she say it?

*goes back to lurking*

When you're propositoning her to spend the night (prior to her getting to the love stage, giving you a ring, and cutting off all sex - no wonder my Warden had to specifically tell Arianne they weren't married ), tell her to "get in the tent woman". That's one of a couple lines that can play.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 10 octobre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Brockololly]

Siduri wrote...

So, I know it's stupid to jump into a thread without reading the prior discussion, but it's 423 pages long and I...just...caaaaaan't. I have a theory, though, that Morrigan is herself a dragon (or, rather, dragon-blooded). Has this been discussed already ad infinitum?

Yes. Now go along and read all 423 pages, its required literature for any self respecting Morrigan fan:lol:
( I think the whole dragon blooded thing may have even been mentioned not too long (~10pages) ago? Can't recall.)

Captain Uccisore wrote...
62 hours of straight gameplay  (Awakening + other dlc included) with little sleep in between. O_O You  see what you people made me do!

Thats dedication, thats what that is. Bravo, Morrigan salutes you.

Captain Uccisore wrote...
Anyway, the point of my post is  that I've never seen Morrigan's line in that picture before (or I can't  remember it). When does she say it?

I think its one of the responses Morrigan gives if you demand her to "Get in the tent, woman." She has some other funny ones too.

Edit:'d

revan11exile wrote...
So want i  wanted to know is how many years does Morrigan and the Warden plan on  saying in their,is the Mirror World going be like the Hyerbolic Time  Chamber in Dragon Ball Z were if you spend 1 year in it it means 2 days
in the outside world?

Hmmm... well, she says that she needs time for her plan. I thin kthe presumption is that if she isn't in DA2, that knowing WH takes place 2 years from the beginning of Origins and DA2 is supposed to take place 10 years time from the beginning of Origins, the earliest they'd return from Mirror World would be 8 years post Witch Hunt.

But its possible some weird time things are going on like you mentioned- only Gaider and the writers know.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 octobre 2010 - 05:48 .

[lilmeezer]

Brockololly wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
...difficult to account for all the female  wardens, males who didn't romance Morrigan, males who ended up with
Leliana, and wardens who did the ultimate sacrifice. You cannot make  TWO major plots in a game I wouldn't think -- one for living wardens who walked through the mirror, and one for everyone else.

Thats true, but my *hope* would be to simply alter the beginning of any such game like with the Origin stories, have different beginnings based on how the game ended before.  Then just bring everything to some common point.

So, if there were such a beginning, and the Warden featured greatly in it, but for some reason had to exit (either through death or other reason), but passed the "baton" on to another hero, how would that make folks feel?

Too bad the timeline doesn't seem like it will allow for a descendant of our Warden (whether it be OGB, non-OBG or some other child, adopted or blood) to then become main character alongside Morrigan and therefore able to have a similar relationship with her that the Warden did. Such a timeline would also prevent, due to Morrigan aging, other main characters having Morrigan as a romance option, keeping that for the Warden.

Or, in the hope of seeing a Morrigan/Flemeth showdown, a similar thing with Hawke/Flemeth (Warden/Morrigan vs. Hawke/Flemeth!) and folks would be able to choose sides, since people are so polarized over Morrigan and Hawke at this point. I think that would pull in gamers from the previous games, and with the intros and backstory, include new gamers who were getting into the story for the first time.

[TheBlackBaron]

http://social.biowar...index/4988817/3



Guys, I'm tired, ticked off by sporting events of the day, and naturally acidic on the DA2 boards, and as a result I'm afraid that I might go tumbling off the edge of, ah...civilized discussion if I have to respond to the two peeps at the bottom. Would somebody mind educating them?

[revan11exile]

Brockololly wrote...

Siduri wrote...

So, I know it's stupid to jump into a thread without reading the prior discussion, but it's 423 pages long and I...just...caaaaaan't. I have a theory, though, that Morrigan is herself a dragon (or, rather, dragon-blooded). Has this been discussed already ad infinitum?

Yes. Now go along and read all 423 pages, its required literature for any self respecting Morrigan fan:lol:
( I think the whole dragon blooded thing may have even been mentioned not too long (~10pages) ago? Can't recall.)

Captain Uccisore wrote...
62 hours of straight gameplay  (Awakening + other dlc included) with little sleep in between. O_O You  see what you people made me do!

Thats dedication, thats what that is. Bravo, Morrigan salutes you.

Captain Uccisore wrote...
Anyway, the point of my post is  that I've never seen Morrigan's line in that picture before (or I can't  remember it). When does she say it?

I think its one of the responses Morrigan gives if you demand her to "Get in the tent, woman." She has some other funny ones too.

Edit:'d

revan11exile wrote...
So want i  wanted to know is how many years does Morrigan and the Warden plan on  saying in their,is the Mirror World going be like the Hyerbolic Time  Chamber in Dragon Ball Z were if you spend 1 year in it it means 2 days
in the outside world?

Hmmm... well, she says that she needs time for her plan. I thin kthe presumption is that if she isn't in DA2, that knowing WH takes place 2 years from the beginning of Origins and DA2 is supposed to take place 10 years time from the beginning of Origins, the earliest they'd return from Mirror World would be 8 years post Witch Hunt.

But its possible some weird time things are going on like you mentioned- only Gaider and the writers know.

I also wonder if Morrigan and the Warden will age in the Mirror World?

[lilmeezer]

revan11exile wrote...
I also wonder if Morrigan and the Warden will age in the Mirror World?

And does the taint still have the same effect on the Warden in the mirror world?

Modifié par lilmeezer, 10 octobre 2010 - 06:28 .

[Brockololly]

lilmeezer wrote...
So, if there were such a beginning, and the Warden featured greatly in it, but for some reason had to exit (either through death or other reason), but passed the "baton" on to another hero, how would that make folks feel?

If it made sense, and was dealt with the necessary gravitas something like that would deserve, that would be fine. Sort of like how Terra has mentioned the notion of perhaps having more than one protagonist in DA2- maybe play half the game as Hawke, half as the Warden. Something like that.

lilmeezer wrote...
Too bad the timeline doesn't seem like it will allow for a descendant of our Warden (whether it be OGB, non-OBG or some other child, adopted or blood) to then become main character alongside Morrigan and therefore able to have a similar relationship with her that the Warden did. Such a timeline would also prevent, due to Morrigan aging, other main characters having Morrigan as a romance option, keeping that for the Warden.

Well, my hope would maybe be that after the Warden/Morrigan storyline is through, that the God Baby could become either a major NPC whose attitude is affected by how the Warden/Morrigan raised him or even as a PC. So maybe DA3 ends with Morrigan/The Warden walking off into the sunset, leaving a grown young adult Old God Kid to fulfill his destiny without his super powerful parents protecting him.

TheBlackBaron wrote...

http://social.biowar...index/4988817/3

Guys, I'm tired, ticked off by sporting events of the day, and naturally  acidic on the DA2 boards, and as a result I'm afraid that I might go  tumbling off the edge of, ah...civilized discussion if I have to respond to the two peeps at the bottom. Would somebody mind educating them?

Meh...its that "Asai" character...no offense but he's been around a while and you'd think Morrigan came through some interdimensional portal and crapped in his face every day  with the hate he spews towards an imaginary character. No possibility for any discussion there. Best be to just move along. Don't waste your typing skills and your time.

Edit: Ha- I see Gaider put him in his place, haha:

David Gaider wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Wow.
You realiza that voicing such a strong opinion about a character is only going to confirm in the writers' minds that they did something very,  very right when they created Morrigan?

Irony's such a b1tch, isn't it? Such venom for someone he claims not to care about. Tsk.

lilmeezer wrote...
Or, in the hope of seeing a Morrigan/Flemeth showdown, a similar thing with Hawke/Flemeth (Warden/Morrigan vs. Hawke/Flemeth!) and folks would be able to choose sides, since people are so polarized over Morrigan and Hawke at this point. I think that would pull in gamers from the previous games, and with the intros and backstory, include new gamers who were getting into the story for the first time.

Absolutely- that would be great.

FWIW, Gaider posted a bunch in this thread about the sales and such of DAO vs. ME and that side of things and I kindly reminded him how awesome a Morrigan/Warden/Flemeth/Old God Baby game could be:

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote..
]Well, I sure hope you guys stay profitable long enough such that you can  continue on with Morrigan, the Warden and Old God Baby's return from  Mirror World to save the day after Hawke ends up starting World War Thedas with Flemeth knocking down sandcastles and all.

Well I'd like to think we're building towards something. Let's hope we can keep it awesome in the meantime, while we're still getting there.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 octobre 2010 - 06:53 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Brockololly wrote...

lilmeezer wrote...
So, if there were such a beginning, and the Warden featured greatly in it, but for some reason had to exit (either through death or other reason), but passed the "baton" on to another hero, how would that make folks feel?

If it made sense, and was dealt with the necessary gravitas something like that would deserve, that would be fine. Sort of like how Terra has mentioned the notion of perhaps having more than one protagonist in DA2- maybe play half the game as Hawke, half as the Warden. Something like that.

If we stick with the common "OGB as protaganist" thoery, if we advanced far enough in time you might play as the Warden basically training his son/daughter (I can't imagine a BioWare game not at least allowing gender choice, so that's an okay retcon in my book) and showing him the ropes. Then at some point he succumbs to the Taint and you take over as Bhaalspawn Mk. II.

lilmeezer wrote...
Too bad the timeline doesn't seem like it will allow for a descendant of our Warden (whether it be OGB, non-OBG or some other child, adopted or blood) to then become main character alongside Morrigan and therefore able to have a similar relationship with her that the Warden did. Such a timeline would also prevent, due to Morrigan aging, other main characters having Morrigan as a romance option, keeping that for the Warden.

Well, my hope would maybe be that after the Warden/Morrigan storyline is through, that the God Baby could become either a major NPC whose attitude is affected by how the Warden/Morrigan raised him or even as a PC. So maybe DA3 ends with Morrigan/The Warden walking off into the sunset, leaving a grown young adult Old God Kid to fulfill his destiny without his super powerful parents protecting him.

...Probably should have read farther, since that's more or less what I just said above...ah well.

TheBlackBaron wrote...

http://social.biowar...index/4988817/3

Guys, I'm tired, ticked off by sporting events of the day, and naturally  acidic on the DA2 boards, and as a result I'm afraid that I might go  tumbling off the edge of, ah...civilized discussion if I have to respond to the two peeps at the bottom. Would somebody mind educating them?

Meh...its that "Asai" character...no offense but he's been around a while and you'd think Morrigan came through some interdimensional portal and crapped in his face every day  with the hate he spews towards an imaginary character. No possibility for any discussion there. Best be to just move along. Don't waste your typing skills and your time.

But...but...Brock! Somebody is wrong on the Internet!

Also I ended up having to wait for a download on something, so...

lilmeezer wrote...
Or, in the hope of seeing a Morrigan/Flemeth showdown, a similar thing with Hawke/Flemeth (Warden/Morrigan vs. Hawke/Flemeth!) and folks would be able to choose sides, since people are so polarized over Morrigan and Hawke at this point. I think that would pull in gamers from the previous games, and with the intros and backstory, include new gamers who were getting into the story for the first time.

Absolutely- that would be great.

FWIW, Gaider posted a bunch in this thread about the sales and such of DAO vs. ME and that side of things and I kindly reminded him how awesome a Morrigan/Warden/Flemeth/Old God Baby game could be:

I think it's undeniable that would be awesome - the problem, of course, is that BioWare would essentially have to shape two campaigns, or perhaps more like one and a half - some "missions" might be exclusive to one side or the other, while they might play others from opposite viewpoints; RTS's do this all the time.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 10 octobre 2010 - 06:58 .

[ximena]

@Esbatty

Hahaha. Glad you had a good time even if your boss got angry.


@thread

Oh god. Why do you guys go on long post mode when I'm busy and can't reply my own long replies? XD

Anyway, because I can't reply anything of substance (again) I'm just gonna post a Morrigan comic by another artist:




by eisu

Modifié par ximena, 10 octobre 2010 - 12:16 .

[Morrigans God son]

I would seriously draw some Morrigan art if I could, but I wouldn't like to blind you guys for life. I'll leave the Morrigan art to Ximena, Great job!

Anyways, we have a huge problem gloomy Morrigan lovers & supporters. There is a current crisis on FanFiction. It is filled with Alistair stories! And not nearly enough Morrigan lol. ( Breaking news! )

Modifié par Morrigans God son, 10 octobre 2010 - 12:41 .

[tool_bot]

 

I think I've talked to much smack about Morrigan in gaming forums. Must lighten the karmic load.



by LiquorArt

[ximena]

Morrigans God son wrote...



Anyways, we have a huge problem gloomy Morrigan lovers & supporters. There is a current crisis on FanFiction. It is filled with Alistair stories! And not nearly enough Morrigan lol. ( Breaking news! )

That's something we can't really compete with. There are a lot of vocal Alistair followers compared to the Morrigan ones. Hahaha.

Though one of my personal missions was to bombard the fandom with Morrigan because of the lack of Morrigan. There were only a number of Morrigan art and fanfiction when I started my "mission."  Like for fanfiction, you could
count the Morrigan fics with your ten fingers.

I'm happy to say that the number of Morrigan art has increased since then. (Though that's primarily because I bombard dA with her I think. >__> )

[Morrigans God son]

ximena wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...



Anyways, we have a huge problem gloomy Morrigan lovers & supporters. There is a current crisis on FanFiction. It is filled with Alistair stories! And not nearly enough Morrigan lol. ( Breaking news! )

That's something we can't really compete with. There are a lot of vocal Alistair followers compared to the Morrigan ones. Hahaha.

Though one of my personal missions was to bombard the fandom with Morrigan because of the lack of Morrigan. There were only a number of Morrigan art and fanfiction when I started my "mission."  Like for fanfiction, you could
count the Morrigan fics with your ten fingers.

I'm happy to say that the number of Morrigan art has increased since then. (Though that's primarily because I bombard dA with her I think. >__> )

Morrigan would be proud of you!

Anyways I was strolling through FanFiction there, and the amount of Alistair is maddening! I suppose his fan girlies write stories until their little hearts burst lol.

I vote that Brock puts the ranting aside long enough to write us a good Morrigan FanFiction!

[tool_bot]

The only Morrigan fanfic I've really liked so far is A is for Apostate on fanfic.net. Does anyone know any other good ones?

[Morrigans God son]

tool_bot wrote...

The only Morrigan fanfic I've really liked so far is A is for Apostate on fanfic.net. Does anyone know any other good ones?

http://www.fanfictio...rbs_of_Arastani

http://www.fanfictio...ge_Black_Warden

That guy who writes these brilliant Morrigan FanFictions is a hero. Maker bless him.

[tool_bot]

Thanks, will get to reading.

[Brockololly]

ximena wrote...

Oh god. Why do you guys go on long post mode when I'm busy and can't reply my own long replies? XD

Anyway, because I can't reply anything of substance (again) I'm just gonna post a Morrigan comic by another artist:




by eisu

Hahaha- thats a brilliant comic! Hahaha- I love the herpderp stupid Warden responses- like if you romance Leliana you can act dumb as a rock telling her about your journal and all when she wants to sleep with you. And Sten looks awesome there

ximena wrote...
I'm
happy to say that the number of Morrigan art has increased since then.
(Though that's primarily because I bombard dA with her I think.
>__> )

And thank goodness for that! *high fives Ximena for awesome Morrigan art*

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 octobre 2010 - 01:34 .

[ximena]

I also like WritingOutTheStorm's works. And ah... beanball. The last chapter of BW was golden. xD Proofed a couple of chapters for him in the past.

EDIT: *highfives Brock back*

Modifié par ximena, 10 octobre 2010 - 01:41 .

[Brockololly]

This one on deviantart made me


Also by eisu

[Morrigans God son]

ximena wrote...

I also like WritingOutTheStorm's works. And ah... beanball. The last chapter of BW was golden. xD Proofed a couple of chapters for him in the past,

Yep. I enjoyed Warden's Keep. It was a good little read.
Yes...The last chapter....Cheese! Dang The Warden is in for a rough night.

[IndigoWolfe]

*Wait, no never mind.*

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 10 octobre 2010 - 04:01 .

[ejoslin]

TheBlackBaron wrote...


Yeah, there was a blog post linked a while back positing that Flemeth was a member of the Dragon Cult and
that Morrigan herself had dragon blood - that explained the golden eyes. Although it should be noted that everyday humans can have golden eyes, it's just rare for the pigments to shake down that way (it being a variant of amber eyes, themselves not very common).

Anyhow, it was an interesting read, although I personally disagreed with some of the author's conclusions.

I personally have yellow eyes -- golden if you must, but they're very very yellow ringed with green and a tiny bit of green around the pupil.

Ummm, ok, that along with very dark hair and a liking of purple eye makeup is about all I have in common with Morrigan.
Anyway, yellow eyes do not a dragon make.  I know for a fact that I have no dragon blood! Hah, moving along now!

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[Brockololly]

Study break, so I'll try to respond to Terra's post in a more succinct fashion, no guarantees.

But first, its MySims Morrigan in her plane! In space!




[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'm sorry but BioWare knew what they were setting up with the Morrigan DR>Morrigan Leaves scenario. Laidlaw promises more Morrigan, Gaider hints at the possibility of more warden and WH implies the importance of both in a future plot thread, irrespective of their relationship. BioWare creates these expectations and then plays this game of cat and mouse with the fans. To be clear it's about more than just the romance side of things. Morrigan has more plot relevance than the other LI do in the future, period. It's the greater plotline that she & the warden are embroiled in that is the draw. These things are not exclusive to a male warden romancing her, like it or not the Warden is caught in a larger plot involving Flemeth, Morrigan and seemingly Hawke as well now. Taking WH as an example, if I'm writing a story and at the end of page 146 the protagonist stabs someone, only on page 147 someone else is dealing with the consequences while the protagonist never heard of again, well, unless its a elaborate scheme to frame someone, it's poor storytelling in my eyes.[/quote]

WORD.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
On ME3, BioWare's usual response to criticism of game mechanics is to introduce a wrecking ball to said mechanic and replace it with something completely different, so I'm not sure how RPG-esque ME will turn out to be. Witch Hunt marketing was definitely off the mark, but my expectations couldn't have been any lower at the time so I wasn't affected.[/quote]
Thats very true about the changes and thats in part what concerns me about DA2. BG2 was agreat sequel as it built off of BG1 and made things bigger and better, while ME2 cut things down and stripped everything down. It seems as if they're going the mE2 route for DA2 rather than the BG2 route which is too bad.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well, I like to think that here in the Morri thread we have certainly entertained & developed possible bridging theories/threads that could support all wardens returning in the future. Again, if WH is the last time we see the warden then Morrigan's gift serves no purpose, stabbing Morrigan serves no purpose (as she survives anyway) and the mirror world ending obviously is pointless. Whilst my posts of late are laced with pessimism I do retain some measure of hope (quivering in the corner of my heart I'd imagine) that the WH endings & what Gaider said about the "disappearing Warden" in Awakening will actually have bear fruit in the future. It's fairly unanimous that WH is far from a definite end to the Warden's story, so I can only surmise that it serves as the beginning of a common thread to possibly bring the warden back. So why the consensus seems to be "this is the end to my warden's story, wtf!?", I'm looking at it from the perspective that the door is being definitively left open.  My posts probably display far more doom & gloom than hope though.[/quote]
No, thats very true- the door has been left open for the Warden to return, Orlesian or otherwise. Its just a matter if its being left open so the Warden can come back or if its only so BioWare can troll everyone and slam that door in our faces. If WH does end the Warden's story beyond maybe a codex entry, then I'll lose a great amount of respect for BioWare as storytellers, not just game designers.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Yeah, it's a bit of a puzzler to be sure. Things like say Morrigan's epilogue slide in both Origins & Awakening - it's a known bug, the devs even touched upon it when we were concerned about how WH would recognise the romance while Awakening did not. Yet despite this taking all of two seconds to fix, it never has been. The size of the epilogue file or its associated scripts isn't exactly breaking any title update limits on the Xbox/PS3 side of things so yeah, I don't know what's going tbh. There's nothing I've seen of DA2 thus far that would interest me enough to invest time fixing stuff though (and the players shouldn't have to fix the game regardless) plus the addition of a voiced PC essentially kills the notion of any extensions to the main campaign, but I agree there certainly should be a toolset update.[/quote]
The much quicker dev cycle for DA2 worries me with the bugs though too. Sure, being a smaller game or at least shorter should hopefully help in making a bug free game, but from Origins to Awakening to Witch Hunt, those have all had a multitude of bugs ranging from small yet significant story bugs to game breaking story bugs like WH to game breaking bugs like the Silverite Mines. And their rationale for no fixing certain things is worthless - not fixing the Blackblade armor in Awakening because it would go past the MS allowed patch size? Ugh....

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
It's just as you say though, Morrigan's story continues beyond DA:O and by extension (through WH) so does the Warden's irrespective of a romance or not simply through Morrigan's warning and gift, although many seem blind to this it does seem a rather convenient hook to use to bring the warden back in the future, certainly allaying concerns that WH was not a fitting end for all wardens.[/quote]
Right- its just that most who say the Warden's story is done point out that they'll just write off the Warden in Mirror World. WHich they could do, but as we've said, what was the point then? To just troll anyone who liked their PC woth a immensely unsatisfying ending? Because given how WH ends and baits the player with more to come and more questions than answers, simply marginalizing the role of the Warden in Morrigan's story going forward is just poor storytelling and amounts to BioWare trolling their fanbase.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
An important question is how long is meant by "not by a long shot." I think it'd be very easy for BioWare to overplay their hand with Morrigan - let's face it there's a million different pitfalls on the road to closure of that thread. Is Morrigan's thread to run in tandem with Flemeth's? Will this chart the entire conceivable series of games (and run the risk of never being closed or will we get answers sooner rather than later and move onto new mysteries?[/quote]
Absolutely- it seems Laidlaw and Gaider know that people sort of want to get to MOrrigan's story and are trying to paint DA2 as a necessary bridge to it. Maybe it is and it will make her story all the better, I sure hope so. But seeing the consequences of the DR and letting the Warden specifically deal with Morrigan's plot is the big loose end at the close of WH and Origins.Like Laidlaw mentioned in that interview I posted a while ago, its the obvious spot to continue and yet for some reason they're not. I just hope they don't try to milk this out like any number of TV shows that go on for too long only to run out of material and unceremoniously get canceled. I hope they have a clear plan with Morrigan's plot- one which isn't ruined by the seeming need to have VO everything, thus preclusing the return of the Warden.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
To the point though, the mirror world is a decision as viable as any other, we can also make a reasonable assumption that DA has a large portion of male players who will have romanced Morrigan, handwaving that doesn't strike me as an informed choice.[/quote]
Definitely- I can only guess, but I imagine that BIoWare knows by looking at their telemetry how many people do the DR or romanced Morrigan. SO if those numbers are significant, I'd assume they may want to pay attention to that fanbase. Which they did in Witch Hunt, bugged as it may have been. The thing is, do they understand why people liked/hated Morrigan- it was through her interactions with the Warden and her character development.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
An NPC warden would be an okayish trade off, not 100% sure on how they'd pull it off successfully without fan outcries of "my warden wouldn't do/say that." At its worst you could have the warden as a silent NPC I suppose, a almost comical homage to the "old way" but that'd likely annoy more than a few people. The warden as the PC, or a multi-protagonist setup would be the optimal solution in my eyes, particularly if Morrigan & Flemeth are increasing their own power as the series progresses, having to go from lvl1 with a new PC each time will be far from appealing. [/quote]
Yeah, a voiced Warden or NPC Warden would seem odd. And no doubt would really tick off many people, never mind the fact that they'd have to reconcile the various races and genders of each possible Warden VO. A silent Warden as an NPC would be stupid really- the Warden in Origins is only "silent" in the sense that you're reading the dialogue in your head- in the game world he/she isn't silent at all. Its not like Gordon Freeman, which is what many of the pro VO people seem to think.

Like you said, the multi protagonist set up with the Warden returning as a semi-high level character would be fantastic. Although, hell, I'd prefer it just as the Warden being the lone PC, but a multi PC approach could work too.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Gaider is fairly swift to shoot down things that aren't going to happen and the sheer number of times he's mentioned the possibility (and significant number of fans who've expressed the same desire) make me think that maybe there's something there... Not sure you'd really gain anything through sustaining false hope except the fans eventual animosity.[/quote]
Thats true. Thinking about things though, any possible return of Morrigan concerns me in the sense of keeping things "accessible" for that mythical new gamer BioWare seems to be courting. Would they "standardize" MOrrigan's character for the sake of introducing her to those that didn't play DAO? Its like how Laidlaw says they're keeping DA2 combat easy to start out, will they dumb down the existing lore too?

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
And we come to the simple, logical and imo completely reasonable desire of most fans of Morrigan - to participate in the climax of that thread as the warden, be it as a friend/lover or her enemy. If you have all this build up and foreshadowing of something big with Morrigan & Flemeth throughout both DA:O & DA2 and the primary proponents aren't all assembled at its culmination, there's a pretty major flaw in the narrative imo.[/quote]
It would kill my interest in the franchise really. If you're building up to some big, huge plot climax and then at the last minute replace the PC who has the most invested in that plot with some new guy, whats the point? My worry as I've said too often now, is that BioWare simply think that the player finding out about Morrigan's plans is enough and that alone is why people want Morrigan back. Which isn;t the case at all, nevermind the fact that it would be silly for Morrigan's plans to be exposed to some random new Hero but not the Warden.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well with WH, that plot arc (whilst somewhat revised from what I suspect was originally planned) could still go ahead. That's what I'm hoping at least one of the goals of WH was and yes, a handwave now would be worse than leaving it at the Origins ending. I'll just say, Morrigan's story is still easily salvageable into a fantastic arc, DA2's insights from Flemeth could even make it stronger, but it's all about how they handle Morrigan's return that makes or breaks it.[/quote]
Absolutely- WH sets things up for something great potentially. But all the signs of the gameplay mechanics and overall attitude shift in DA2 with the voiced PC and all throws doubt on to the Warden's return. Basically it comes down to Hawke representing the "New Sh*t" voiced PC and the Warden being the old school RPG.  Gaider has mentioned on the forums that their approach in DA2 is what fits in this particular story and that its not writing in stone how they'll approach things in the future, but if they actually go back to the silent PC after all this I'll be greatly surprised, but definitely elated.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
^This. As you've said before, merely saying "Hey, Morrigan's back" really isn't going to cut it. First you've got the Morri-haters who will be outraged that the object of their hatred is back in Dragon Age, then you have the yes-men who go along with whatever BioWare does and praise it as the gospel. And then you have the Morrigan fans, presumably significant in number who will have high expectations when she does return. If the warden isn't there then I can't see how they can really give her the depth of character we saw in DA:O without rewriting her entire persona. So will it be the one size fits all Morrigan for the sake of convenience or will BioWare go the extra mile?[/quote]
Right, if you're bothering to make a Morrigan centric title without the Warden, who exactly are you marketing that to? Seriously, you'd be alienating a large chunk of the fanbase no doubt. It just wouldn't make sense without the Warden's absence seeming contrived and essentially sucking the emotional engagement out of such a title.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Much like I gladly moved away from BioWare after BG2:TOB, the NWN model & multiplayer focus did nothing for me and I only came back into the fold fairly recently. Will the lack of my purchase have any impact - not a chance, I simply like to choose products that meet my expectations.[/quote]
As I pointed out to Gaider in this thread, the barrier to exit is fairly low, especially with all the other games out there. Certainly BioWare wants to expand their fanbase with each subsequent release, but you have to tread a fine line between bringing new people into the fold and retaining existing fans without alienating them by changing the story/game so much so that its not what brough the original fans in in the first place.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Precisely, diversity is what it's all about - you build upon the unique strengths of each series rather than trying to make everything the same. Sadly, EA likes everything to be generic, conforming to a set template so it can be carbon copied and repackaged for a given year.[/quote]
Yup, and then I'm sure EA will act all shocked and surprised when DA tanks after a couple yearsof Madden like iterations, only to allow them to reboot it in a couple years, just like they're doing with Medal of Honor. Or just like they most recently ran Command and Conquer into the ground. But give that a couple years and I'm sure they'll try to reboot that. Meh.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'm gonna mention Nier again (forgive me) but there was an interesting discussion on another forum between several "intelligent" posters and a typical "bro." Now, this particular scene in Nier reads literally like a book (for reasons that are apparent in-game), it's part of the genre jumping that happens mid-game and obviously it provides you with a unique angle on a character's feelings mid-game that can only be conveyed via the written word. The bro simply could not accept that what was accomplished in a text-based scene could not have been accomplished by a cutscene, in fact he almost demanded that everything be delivered to him via spoken cutscenes (sound familiar?) It was truly a sad display as he was torn apart post by post, 'twas most amusing though.[/quote]
Thats just sad. The problem is that people automatically think voice>text. And thats just not the case. Maybe it works in a movie, but while video game tech is certainly better than 10 years ago, its still not close to being as refined as cinema. Text has its place and can be used to great effect in video games.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Wield that power Brock and make it happen! I wouldn't say it's too early really, the Chantry's collapse could have some major ripples across the world for sure that could extend beyond DA2, I think that's separate to Morri's "change" though.[/quote]
Yeah, I can't help but feel like I'll end up burning through DA2 simply to get to the end to start speculating on DA3 and toss DA2 to the wayside. We'll see.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Hmmm, it's possible I suppose. Of course, if it is succesful, EA will likely push for the one year dev cycle for all future DA projects, and we'll get the shorter DA2 style outings forever more, rather than the truly lengthy DA:O/BG2 epics.[/quote]
Well, I think the Origins style long single player RPG is dead. Outside of Bethesda style sandbox RPGs of course. The only way we'll see another lengthy single player RPG like DAO out of BioWare again is if they really get efficient with content creation and ditch the voiced PC or they lump it into some sort of TOR style subscription thing. They've said how TOR is the biggest thing they've ever created and how you can play it like a single player game if you want- so its basically a single player subscription based RPG, lovely.:pinched:Its all about how to monetize playtime- what incentive do they have to make a 80 hour game vs. a 30 hour one when only 50% of people who finish a 30 hour game like ME2 anyway? Of course there are reasons but thats probably where they're coming from. Personally, the only reason I played some of the DA DLC is because I was still messing with mods and replaying Origins since it was a long game. With ME2, I haven't touched any of the DLC because I just don't feel compelled to having burned through it several times quickly after launch.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Yeah, I think Awakening really does give the warden the last push he needs to just say "screw it". Fergus is still around to deal with Cousland business regardless and it's time for the warden to put himself first come WH in my eyes.[/quote]
Definitely- thats certainly how I RP'd my canon Cousland. Did his Wardenly duties but towards the end just said F*** it- burn Amaranthine, kill the Architect and go all emo and brooding while storming off to search for Morrigan and his OGB. He's done plenty for Ferelden and people like Alistair/Anora and Fergus can certainly deal with things while he gets his own personal affairs in order.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
On a side note, I've just become insanely hyped for New Vegas. I've intentionally not followed its progress much and thought I'd see where it was up to earlier today - didn't realise we're so close to release and it looks pretty damn good. I'm contemplating not playing it till the end of the semester though or it'll suck up so much time that my studies will suffer.[/quote]
Same here- New Vegas will have to wait  till semester's end.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
But who's she gonna take that anger out on? Will she become the schoolyard bully and unleash merry hell on the nearest "generic voiced Dragon Age protagonist" come DA3 or will it quite rightly be saved up for those naughty wardens who wronged her? Hmmm, is there are parallel there with Flemeth's story maybe, or is it being used as the sole deciding factor as to whether we get nice/nasty Morrigan in the future?[/quote]
Very true. I could see them just having that decision result in her being generic evil Witch of the Wilds with a new PC, which would probably be the "accessible" way to reintroduce Morrigan in DA3 or whenever. But the possible parallel to Flemeth would be interesting- sort of like Luke in Return of the Jedi- does he fall to the Dark Side like his father or make his own path?

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I do find this somewhat amusing. DA2 has in my mind moved from being a definite pre-order (which it was when I first finished Origins since DA2 would presumably be picking up in Orlais) to several rungs down the ladder of interest, to be honest I can't think of a single other instance in my gaming career where this has happened. Every subsequent reveal has done more to distance DA2 from DA:O (whether intentionally or not). So right there, you've got your current fanbase shrinking and a lot of it could have been avoided were more care taken in the initial reveal stages.[/quote]
Agreed. I don't understand their marketing as I've said countless times. WIth the initial reveal, the only people paying attention are those invested in Origins most likely. So play up how its Origins just better, not some radical new Dragon Effect game. Certainly highlight the changes, but do more than empty marketing slogans that remind people of the terrible Marilyn Manson garbage. Their marketing strategy of not showing off the game allowing crappy bootleg footage to be people's first impressions is incredibly odd. I'd expect something official this month at least- Origins had those walkthrough videos narrated by Dan Tudge come out in October 08, back when Origins was still slated for a March 09 release. Unless of course DA2 gets delayed...

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
 Laidlaw and friends certainly like to dangle the Morrigan carrot, but it can only go so far. If I see DA slipping fully into that NWN mold of throwaway heroes and companions (and we're already on the precipice) replete with Morrigan sinking into the embrace of aforementioned generic new DA3 protagonist then the hook is worthless and you've lost a chunk of the audience.[/quote]
Amen, Terra.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The top and bottom of the matter is this - Morrigan's return will go over the head of new players so they're not relevant in that sense, as we've gone into great detail about before, her return will have the largest impact on long-term players who've been with the series since DA:O, for differing reasons. For the maximum impact it's got to feature a certain player character in some capacity or all this waiting has been for nothing. [/quote]
Exactamundo! You bring Morrigan back with a new PC and given her personality and character development in Origins, you may as well just make Morrigan a completely new character. She can certainly stand on her own as a character, but given how WH ends and how its only been the Warden interacting with her in any meaningful way thus far, its stupid to not have the Warden there when she is presumably in the most important part of her life and her "plan."

And since Flemeth is also part of the Morrigan thread, I'll just add this awesome comic from Aimo:):

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 octobre 2010 - 11:26 .