16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Morrigans God son]

Well, to me she certainly looks like Morrigan in a way. Same eyes and all. Do we even know if Flemeth has a permenant body, or can she just change her form whenever it pleases her. Ughhh to many unanswered questions!



But why would Morrigan slap make up around the side of her head? lol, Flemeth also has that pinkish eye feature. I wonder if she still has it in DA2....

[Brockololly]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
On the subject of gods being imprisoned, though, there is this interesting tidbit:

"And that is how Fen'Harel tricked them. Our gods saw him as a brother,
and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens
while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted him also when
he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if only the
Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They trusted
Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And Fen'Harel sealed them
away so they could never again walk among the People."

So...maybe Flemeth is akin to Fen'Harel? Perhaps also kind of in a stand-off neutral position?

That really makes alot of sense. The whole trickster side of things jives with how Morrigan said her mother has tricked her way past death and more. Then you have the whole nature of being a shapeshifter, which seems sort of tricky and deceitful, especially Flemeth being able to change human form.

[Brockololly]

Ugh...the Morrigan hate, people dismissing the Warden's role in Morrigan's story in the DA2 forums is tiresome. Yes, I think Morrigan is a good character- but this is just a common type statement when you try to state why the Warden should play an important role in the future of Morrigan's story:

Well, I think Morrigan can stand alone on her own as an interesting character- you don't think she can stand on her own? In fact, having her broaden her horizons a bit would do her more justice, I think, than having her only show up when the Warden does.

Or after I post this in a certain thread:

Riona45 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Clarification, the Warden needs to find out what Morrigan is up to, not some random new Epic Hero of Thedas. Emotional engagement and all that.

On the contrary, if Morrigan is as important to the story of the setting as the devs say she is, then it's hardly unexpected or unwarranted that she would come into contact with more than one legendary hero of the age.

/facepalm

I give up....yes, lets have disposable PC's and worthless cameos of characters that mean nothing to the equally disposable new PC. Thats engaging in my book...

Myopic people make for a Sad Morri

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Riona45]

Brockololly wrote...
I give up....yes, lets have disposable PC's and worthless cameos of characters that mean nothing to the equally disposable new PC. Thats engaging in my book...

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I meant.

Lame...

EDIT:  And I see you acted all sweet to me in the thread that post came from.  Thank you for showing me your true colors, I'm done ever dealing with you.

Modifié par Riona45, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Terra_Ex]

I've outdone myself yet again, I'm sorry...



[quote]lilmeezer wrote...
So, if there were such a beginning, and the Warden featured greatly in it, but for some reason had to exit (either through death or other reason), but passed the "baton" on to another hero, how would that make folks feel?
[/quote]
My preference for the warden's final act would be something Throne of Bhaal-esque in scale, with Morrigan/Flemeth and OGB all possibly involved so I'm thinking it's end-game material. The two stories could run concurrently I suppose, that's been done before to varying degrees of success. The way you describe it as passing the baton, if not handled well it would seem as a write-off in the opening moments of the game, plus you'd possibly have the conundrum of how to make Morrigan a rounded character without the warden. The fact that the only person Morrigan potentially connects with is the warden is the fundamental problem with continuing her arc without the warden's involvement. So yeah it's a tricky one...


[quote]lilmeezer wrote...
Or, in the hope of seeing a Morrigan/Flemeth showdown, a similar thing with Hawke/Flemeth (Warden/Morrigan vs. Hawke/Flemeth!) and folks would be able to choose sides, since people are so polarized over Morrigan and Hawke at this point. I think that would pull in gamers from the previous games, and with the intros and backstory, include new gamers who were getting into the story for the first time.
[/quote]
A situation like this would be highly desirable and would play off the information gleaned from Morri in DA:O and Flemeth in DA2. I'd say we are likely headed somewhat in this direction already with regards to Morrigan vs Flemeth.


[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
Guys, I'm tired, ticked off by sporting events of the day, and naturally acidic on the DA2 boards, and as a result I'm afraid that I might go tumbling off the edge of, ah...civilized discussion if I have to respond to the two peeps at the bottom. Would somebody mind educating them?
[/quote]
You can't cure stupid, I'm afraid.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
If it made sense, and was dealt with the necessary gravitas something like that would deserve, that would be fine. Sort of like how Terra has mentioned the notion of perhaps having more than one protagonist in DA2- maybe play half the game as Hawke, half as the Warden. Something like that.
[/quote]
I think by and large, people are altogether far too quick to disregard the warden's story as done with. Now unless Gaider was BSing in the PAX vids, the concept of continuing the wardens story was at least considered and for all intents and purposes still remains on the table. Sure you have the US (which I'll talk more on later), but there's another thing to consider - surely it's conceivable that you may at some point want to play through DA:O>DA2>onwards more than once and *gasp* make different choices to view different results as the series moves forwards.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, my hope would maybe be that after the Warden/Morrigan storyline is through, that the God Baby could become either a major NPC whose attitude is affected by how the Warden/Morrigan raised him or even as a PC. So maybe DA3 ends with Morrigan/The Warden walking off into the sunset, leaving a grown young adult Old God Kid to fulfill his destiny without his super powerful parents protecting him.
[/quote]
I'm going to maintain my stand that any ending is acceptable, even the death of both so long as it has meaning and does actually serve as a definitive ending to the arc. Warden disappearing after mirror world/stabbing/receiving the warning doesn't provide the closure most players seek.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, I sure hope you guys stay profitable long enough such that you can  continue on with Morrigan, the Warden and Old God Baby's return from  Mirror World to save the day after Hawke ends up starting World War Thedas with Flemeth knocking down sandcastles and all.
[/quote]

Well I'd like to think we're building towards something. Let's hope we can keep it awesome in the meantime, while we're still getting there.
[/quote]
[/quote]
*sigh* The guy literally lives to torture us.


[quote]ximena wrote...
That's something we can't really compete with. There are a lot of vocal Alistair followers compared to the Morrigan ones. Hahaha.

Though one of my personal missions was to bombard the fandom with Morrigan because of the lack of Morrigan. There were only a number of Morrigan art and fanfiction when I started my "mission."  Like for fanfiction, you could
count the Morrigan fics with your ten fingers.

I'm happy to say that the number of Morrigan art has increased since then. (Though that's primarily because I bombard dA with her I think. >__> )
[/quote]
And we're very grateful for your efforts, ximena

Normally, I would write something myself and my works across various fandoms are usually pretty popular (moreso with females for some unknown reason) but with the Morrigan / Warden setup, I kind of don't want to touch it, I've got too much respect for all that setup I suppose and would rather see where the writers take it. It's strange and hard to explain, something like how I dislike making alterations to the canon when restoring stuff relating to Morrigan I guess, but it's bizarre and has never held me back before...


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Study break, so I'll try to respond to Terra's post in a more succinct fashion, no guarantees.
[/quote]
We don't do succinct in the Morri thread Brock


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
But first, its MySims Morrigan in her plane! In space!



[/quote]
Well in the veritable miasma of pessimism that is the Morri thread, this is probably the most positive Morrigan-related "news" in a while. 'Tis looking more tempting by the day in fact... (yes, yes, I jest.)


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
No, thats very true- the door has been left open for the Warden to return, Orlesian or otherwise. Its just a matter if its being left open so the Warden can come back or if its only so BioWare can troll everyone and slam that door in our faces. If WH does end the Warden's story beyond maybe a codex entry, then I'll lose a great amount of respect for BioWare as storytellers, not just game designers.
[/quote]
I'd actually like to believe that BioWare is capable of meeting the expectations they've created. Having listened to Gaider's podcast recently where he discusses world states you can draw some hope from that I suppose. The primary cause of our dissent seems to be coming from the DA2 brigade who categorically state that the warden can't come back because "their warden is dead", "they dislike the warden" and other such pearls of wisdom. It comes back to what I mentioned earlier (and what Gaider touched upon in the podcast) - the flexibility is there to go back and play through multiple times and see different consequences.

If a relatively minor thing like drunken Alistair can merit a cameo (a choice I'm guessing is dwarfed several times over by those who decided to keep Alistair sober and in-play) then I don't see why a reappearance of the warden is so far-fetched.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Right- its just that most who say the Warden's story is done point out that they'll just write off the Warden in Mirror World. WHich they could do, but as we've said, what was the point then? To just troll anyone who liked their PC woth a immensely unsatisfying ending? Because given how WH ends and baits the player with more to come and more questions than answers, simply marginalizing the role of the Warden in Morrigan's story going forward is just poor storytelling and amounts to BioWare trolling their fanbase.
[/quote]
Oh I've seen you and others fighting the good fight over on the DA2 boards, I'd join you but I don't have the patience to argue back and forth atm, especially when opposing views on the internet are rarely revised via a war of words Writing off the WH endings as the "end of the warden, deal with it" will retroactively annoy a good many people. Morrigan fans more than any other.

Like your recent debate with some guy called "Exile" I think? It's just two classic opposing views - you like the warden & Morrigan and want to put a positive spin on WH possibilities moving forward, he doesn't care for the warden and thus seeks to do the opposite. Whilst his posts are certainly better thought out than most the core issue is that you end up supporting WH as a convenient get out clause/gotcha for BioWare to easily handwave the player's character, and that sets a bad precedent, irrespective of your opinion on said character. Ultimately, should that happen it will simply prove my core problem with DA's current model.

Sure, if you did the US, that character is dead and has no further interest in any ongoing plotlines (but that was your choice to make, an alternative was presented), but the reverse is true, those of us that chose to live and follow through with that thread shouldn't be denied a fitting resolution because some players chose not to do it for a particular playthrough.

I could list just as many reasons for the warden not to return as I could for him/her to return. The list of reasons not to however support the "easy way out" for BioWare, if players want to interpret the WH endings as BioWare's convenient write-off mechanic, sure they're free to do so however they're shooting themselves in the foot at the same time, unless they like the revolving door and wafer-thin plot threads interlinking the various stories of the DA universe. Several people (not just us Morri fans) have noted that WH made them think there was more in store for the warden (and the GWs in general).

I see all sorts of nonsense on the DA2 boards - the warden can only fight blights being a recurring theme. Characters evolve over the course of the game, likewise their goals, desires and impetus (observe weakling Hawke change his lot from refugee to champion), even moreso when that development charts multiple titles, this is true of both your companions and the player character. The warden could quite easily face a non-blight threat, you spend a good deal of Origins doing precisely that. Furthermore, as we move further afield from Ferelden the distinction between a Ferelden/Orlesian warden matters less and less. Much like in BG2, the Bhaalspawn was the saviour of Baldur's Gate after halting Sarevok's plans, yet after being kidnapped and whisked away to Amn, his past deeds had little relevance.

I'd love to be one of the people that can jump on board and be delighted that my previous character has been sidelined, sadly I've seen it happen once to often before and I know which approach works for me and which provides the strongest stories in an ongoing series. I'm certainly not blind to the many impediments to utilising the warden once again, but if you're going to provide a signifcant choice in the closing moments, work to underline its (and the proposer's) importance in a DLC and then say "oh sorry, you can't have that character back because of xyz, finish the story with this character instead" you've pretty much ruined the whole thing.

Long story short, it's the players more than BioWare that are saying there's no possibility of the warden moving forwards, BioWare hints at the opposite in fact. WH was surprising in how much it actually offered the player who pursued the Morrigan romance so anything is possible, though it certainly doesn't hurt if you want to remind Gaider of the importance of the warden in Morrigan's story on a daily basis Brock


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Absolutely- it seems Laidlaw and Gaider know that people sort of want to get to MOrrigan's story and are trying to paint DA2 as a necessary bridge to it. Maybe it is and it will make her story all the better, I sure hope so. But seeing the consequences of the DR and letting the Warden specifically deal with Morrigan's plot is the big loose end at the close of WH and Origins.Like Laidlaw mentioned in that interview I posted a while ago, its the obvious spot to continue and yet for some reason they're not. I just hope they don't try to milk this out like any number of TV shows that go on for too long only to run out of material and unceremoniously get canceled. I hope they have a clear plan with Morrigan's plot- one which isn't ruined by the seeming need to have VO everything, thus preclusing the return of the Warden.
[/quote]
That's my problem with Gaider never wanting to give certain things a decent measure of closure. Using Hawke to further Flemeth's angle whilst simultaneously taking down the Chantry works to an extent to maintain the suspense of the Morri/Flemeth plot. It's got to come full circle sooner or later though.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
It would kill my interest in the franchise really. If you're building up to some big, huge plot climax and then at the last minute replace the PC who has the most invested in that plot with some new guy, whats the point? My worry as I've said too often now, is that BioWare simply think that the player finding out about Morrigan's plans is enough and that alone is why people want Morrigan back. Which isn't the case at all, nevermind the fact that it would be silly for Morrigan's plans to be exposed to some random new Hero but not the Warden.
[/quote]
Exactly, the questions that both male and female wardens had regarding the true purpose behind Morrigan's ritual still remain unanswered since WH provided yet more questions for the warden yet sparse answers. If WH is anything to go by, Morrigan's plans are apparently proceeding regardless of the DR so you've got your reason to bring that player character back in the future right there.

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Absolutely- WH sets things up for something great potentially. But all the signs of the gameplay mechanics and overall attitude shift in DA2 with the voiced PC and all throws doubt on to the Warden's return. Basically it comes down to Hawke representing the "New Sh*t" voiced PC and the Warden being the old school RPG.  Gaider has mentioned on the forums that their approach in DA2 is what fits in this particular story and that its not writing in stone how they'll approach things in the future, but if they actually go back to the silent PC after all this I'll be greatly surprised, but definitely elated.
[/quote]

While I'd love to take him at his word for that, I simply can't see EA backing a return to the silent PC as surely this would be perceived as a step away from the holy grail of cinematic awesomeness that is DA2. Were any such plans to emerge you'll have the newfound bro crowd bleating "zomg no voiceover!" within minutes of the revelation. So while I would like to see some hope in Gaider's words, I'm not convinced that this shift is a two way street, unless DA2's changes are not well received. Although Bethesda plods along quite happily with a silent PC, maybe if the Fallout/Elder Scrolls games can increase the party-based aspects of the game hope remains...


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
As I pointed out to Gaider in this thread, the barrier to exit is fairly low, especially with all the other games out there. Certainly BioWare wants to expand their fanbase with each subsequent release, but you have to tread a fine line between bringing new people into the fold and retaining existing fans without alienating them by changing the story/game so much so that its not what brough the original fans in in the first place.
[/quote]

I find Gaider's comments interesting regarding DA:O sales. I first got Origins for console (on the assumption that following ME BioWare's practices regarding bugs had improved since the days of BG2 - feel free to laugh now) and then later switched up to the PC version. My concern is they are altering things for the wrong reasons - ie: perhaps DA:O sold well on consoles precisely because it brought back many old school elements to players that had never experienced anything similar before? I own all platforms (though barely get time to utilise them) so I've no great preference, but its disconcerting to witness an apparent need to "amp things up/modernise" across the board so soon after the apparent "return to our roots."


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yup, and then I'm sure EA will act all shocked and surprised when DA tanks after a couple yearsof Madden like iterations, only to allow them to reboot it in a couple years, just like they're doing with Medal of Honor. Or just like they most recently ran Command and Conquer into the ground. But give that a couple years and I'm sure they'll try to reboot that. Meh.
[/quote]
Totally, they've done a fantastic job in running C&C into the ground and Red Alert is on similarly shaky ground, would have been much better left at Tib Sun or Wars. I certainly hope DA isn't being set up for the same treatment. On a strategy related note though, Shogun 2 is looking nice


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Thats just sad. The problem is that people automatically think voice>text. And thats just not the case. Maybe it works in a movie, but while video game tech is certainly better than 10 years ago, its still not close to being as refined as cinema. Text has its place and can be used to great effect in video games.
[/quote]
I feel the problem is people just don't stop to actually *think* about what they're posting. When you weigh the benefits/losses of VO against the silent protagonist option you actually need to use the old grey matter to understand what freedoms you're actually giving up. Same principle with streamlining a game for the perceived mainstream audience - what exactly do you think happens when every title conforms to this standard except to provide the same generic experience again and again. Sadly the "instant gratification" mentality pervades all, destroying even the imagination of those playing the game.  In the realm of player interaction & responses, I guess you could liken text to sandbox gameplay and VO to "on the rails" which illustrates the limitations and merits of both approaches quite nicely.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I can't help but feel like I'll end up burning through DA2 simply to get to the end to start speculating on DA3 and toss DA2 to the wayside. We'll see.
[/quote]
Well, I want to like DA2, but the information presented thus far and the manner in which it has been presented are making that difficult. Due to that and Laidlaw/Gaider's comments on Morrigan returning in a future title, (though Gaider seems to be reneging on his no Claudia Black VO for DA2 comments, which you caught nicely Brock) I'd rather speculate on that for the moment. The big thing for me in DA2 is VO, but I've said enough on that already.


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Well, I think the Origins style long single player RPG is dead. Outside of Bethesda style sandbox RPGs of course. The only way we'll see another lengthy single player RPG like DAO out of BioWare again is if they really get efficient with content creation and ditch the voiced PC or they lump it into some sort of TOR style subscription thing. They've said how TOR is the biggest thing they've ever created and how you can play it like a single player game if you want- so its basically a single player subscription based RPG, lovely. Its all about how to monetize playtime- what incentive do they have to make a 80 hour game vs. a 30 hour one when only 50% of people who finish a 30 hour game like ME2 anyway?
[/quote]
I have no interest in TOR or any MMORPG for that matter, been there, done that and I have no plans to subscribe to a "single player" mmorpg experience either.

You've touched upon another interesting point there that Gaider mentioned... somewhere before (not sure exactly where) and that's how many people actually completed DA:O. Now, based off the data they've gathered I believe Gaider said the "majority" never completed it, which is the typical result of a lengthy single player rpg outside of fans of the genre. Have we transitioned away from a lengthy 80hr title to a Mass Effect length outing for DA2 as a direct result of this gathered data? Another interesting point, if most people didn't finish the game, would there not be an assumption there that their player character would still be alive for any future sequel?


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Agreed. I don't understand their marketing as I've said countless times. WIth the initial reveal, the only people paying attention are those invested in Origins most likely. So play up how its Origins just better, not some radical new Dragon Effect game. Certainly highlight the changes, but do more than empty marketing slogans that remind people of the terrible Marilyn Manson garbage. Their marketing strategy of not showing off the game allowing crappy bootleg footage to be people's first impressions is incredibly odd. I'd expect something official this month at least- Origins had those walkthrough videos narrated by Dan Tudge come out in October 08, back when Origins was still slated for a March 09 release. Unless of course DA2 gets delayed...
[/quote]
Yeah, the apparent reluctance to show anything is odd. The Destiny trailer, while nice is completely worthless as a means to judging the game's worth or even how it's shaping up.



[quote]Brockololly wrote...





[/quote]
That was pretty funny actually [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]


[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Nevertheless its tragic she is without her fanfic support and thus I shall now make some Morrigan fic. *hangs head in shame*
[/quote]
Are things really that bad? I'll admit aside from ximena's Demons Within I've not actively scoured for fics for reasons I touched upon earlier. It's par the course for the more complex characters not to receive adequate coverage though, I remember when I was particularly active in fanfiction it was like looking for a needle in a haystack at times, so few were capable of keeping the characters in-character while pushing a story forward. I did disapprove of FF.net's decision many years back to remove fics which contained... mature elements, even those where it wasn't gratuitous felt the pinch.


[quote]Lord_Anthonior wrote...
I wonder how does Terra manage to make this screens? with the toolset and then in the game or right from the tool set? because I'm getting more and more convinced in buying the game for the pc since I only have it on ps3. I always thought that Morrigan should be sitting and resting at camp unlike the others since she has her own bonfire and apart from the rest of the camp.
[/quote]
Well, it depends on what I'm making. The general process is to create it in the toolset>preview & tweak>screenshot in game. Sometimes I'll use a predefined animation for the cutscene, other times I'll pose/animate the characters directly in 3DS Max, then bring it back into the toolset and apply some FaceFX. Sadly I'm just too busy irl atm to do much more than create some amusing still-render scenes for Morrigan on occasion, I do try to find a bit of time each day to rant/post excessively large messages though as that's somewhat cathartic. I do have some interesting stuff on the back burner though. The PC version will afford you a better experience imo, especially since the ultimate edition is dirt cheap I say go for it.


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Anywho, back to more baseless speculation!
 "There are also references in elven mythology to another race of gods, called "The Forgotten Ones," the enemies of the elven pantheon".

"There are references in elven mythology to another race of gods: gods of evil, with whom the gods of the elven pantheon fought an endless war. These gods are now known as the Forgotten Ones, and for good reason as even the hahrens, or elven elders, know little to nothing about them. According to legend they, along with the elven pantheon, were trapped away from the world at around the time of the fall of Arlathan. "

Hmmm. Supposing that the Forgotten ones are not the Old Gods (when were the old Gods supposedely trapped by the Maker?).
Could Flemeth be one of those forgotten ones?
[/quote]
Where's this from, I know I've seen it before not too long ago but I can't place it...


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I do wonder if we'll ever even get a clear answer at all as to Flemeth's true nature or if they'll simply pull a Witch Hunt with most of the Morrigan/Flemeth stuff going forward and constantly tease something more, but never provide any meaningful answers.
[/quote]
Rhetorical question, Brock?


[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Its my understanding that Flemeth gives Hawke a package to deliver to the Dalish clan that was from the Origin story in DAO. Apparently that clan has now moved north into the Free Marches where Hawke is headed.
[/quote]
I'm having a slow day (I'm having a downright awful day tbh, but that's besides the point) but is this clan the same one that Morrigan steals the book from?


[quote]Brockololly wrote...

Ugh...the Morrigan hate, people dismissing the Warden's role in Morrigan's story in the DA2 forums is tiresome. Yes, I think Morrigan is a good character- but this is just a common type statement when you try to state why the Warden should play an important role in the future of Morrigan's story:
[quote]Well, I think Morrigan can stand alone on her own as an interesting character- you don't think she can stand on her own? In fact, having her broaden her horizons a bit would do her more justice, I think, than having her only show up when the Warden does. [/quote]
Or after I post this in a certain thread:
[quote]Riona45 wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Clarification, the Warden needs to find out what Morrigan is up to, not some random new Epic Hero of Thedas. Emotional engagement and all that. [/quote]

On the contrary, if Morrigan is as important to the story of the setting as the devs say she is, then it's hardly unexpected or unwarranted that she would come into contact with more than one legendary hero of the age.[/quote]
/facepalm

I give up....yes, lets have disposable PC's and worthless cameos of characters that mean nothing to the equally disposable new PC. Thats engaging in my book...

Myopic people make for a Sad Morri

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

[/quote]
The arguments of the haters are so easily crushed 'tis barely worth playing the big bad wolf and toppling the house of straw/sticks that they hide within.

On the first quote (is that a genuine quote btw): Morrigan is a loner by nature and has stood on her own for a good long while before meeting the warden, it's the damn interaction with the warden once you get past the stonewall that make her interesting. And for whom does the barrier come down for, oh yes, the Warden. Characters of Morrigan's ilk are interesting through your PC who breaks through to that character, the ice melts for that character alone, while you would likely see something of a shift in her attitude toward others, she's nowhere near trusting of anyone but the warden to talk as openly as she did in Origins. Thus, no Warden, no depth.

On the second quote:
I saw that and had to laugh, somewhat covered by the above (you've got the disconnection of the player having info the character doesn't and there's no point in retreading old ground) so they'd rather support the exact problem people complained about with Morrigan in the DR & WH - lack of answers. This is a good thing and should be continued forever? I think not.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Riona45]

"Arguments of the haters?" Who says I'm a hater? It's it just because I don't agree with something Brockololly said?

To me, you're the one who's coming off as a "hater," laughing at someone you don't know just for the hell of it.

Modifié par Riona45, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:22 .

[Terra_Ex]

Riona45 wrote...

"Arguments of the haters?" Who says I'm a hater? It's it just because I don't agree with Brockololly said?

Touchy today aren't we. "Haters" in this instance was referring to an ongoing private discussion between several members of the thread. You weren't the subject of this remark.

[Riona45]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Touchy today aren't we. "Haters" in this instance was referring to an ongoing private discussion between several members of the thread. You weren't the subject of this remark.

Umm, I was quoted in two posts, and you're being rude to me right now, so why shouldn't I assume I'm a subject--if not the only one--of these remarks?

Modifié par Riona45, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[lilmeezer]

My apologies, double post, argh!

Modifié par lilmeezer, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:48 .

[lilmeezer]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Anywho, back to more baseless speculation!
 "There are also references in elven mythology to another race of gods, called "The Forgotten Ones," the enemies of the elven pantheon".

"There are references in elven mythology to another race of gods: gods of evil, with whom the gods of the elven pantheon fought an endless war. These gods are now known as the Forgotten Ones, and for good reason as even the hahrens, or elven elders, know little to nothing about them. According to legend they, along with the elven pantheon, were trapped away from the world at around the time of the fall of Arlathan. "

Hmmm. Supposing that the Forgotten ones are not the Old Gods (when were the old Gods supposedely trapped by the Maker?).
Could Flemeth be one of those forgotten ones?

Hmmm.. now was Fen'Harel one of the Forgotten Ones too? Sounds about right...interesting....

I do believe that the Old Gods were already imprisoned before the fall of Arlathan though. In any event there seem to be parallels between the Elven Gods and the Old Gods. I do wonder if we'll ever even get a clear answer at all as to Flemeth's true nature or if they'll simply pull a Witch Hunt with most of the Morrigan/Flemeth stuff going forward and constantly tease something more, but never provide any meaningful answers.

Fen'Harel was one of the elven gods, but he was a trickster and plotted betrayel and whatnot. The codex says that although he was one of their gods, he could also walk among the "Forgotten Ones" since they knew of his nature.

On the subject of gods being imprisoned, though, there is this interesting tidbit:

"And that is how Fen'Harel tricked them. Our gods saw him as a brother,
and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens
while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted him also when
he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if only the
Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They trusted
Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And Fen'Harel sealed them
away so they could never again walk among the People."

So...maybe Flemeth is akin to Fen'Harel? Perhaps also kind of in a stand-off neutral position?

Like the Native American coyote stories (and Fen'Harel is appropriately shown in his statues in a dog form)! 

Wikipedia article on Coyote as Trickster

Some Coyote stories are mixed in here:

Native American Lore Index

Modifié par lilmeezer, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:30 .

[Terra_Ex]

Well, you can infer that if you wish, I'm not going to argue with you about it. The first part was an allusion to said private discussion, much as I imagine Brock's original opening paragraph most likely was, which happened to lead into your quote. Apologies if you were offended by that or my follow up comment. I could hardly brand you as a hater based on the quoted text now could I?



The two noted paragraphs marked as addressing quotes one and two are certainly my thoughts on those respective issues however.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Terra. It's in the DA wikia.

And the size of my posts here make me feel inadequate lol

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Terra. It's in the DA wikia.
And the size of my posts here make me feel inadequate lol

At least you're brave enough to post. I feel so intimidated by everyone's gigantic posts here... ...

[Riona45]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Well, you can infer that if you wish, I'm not going to argue with you about it. The first part was an allusion to said private discussion, much as I imagine Brock's original opening paragraph most likely was, which happened to lead into your quote. Apologies if you were offended by that or my follow up comment. I could hardly brand you as a hater based on the quoted text now could I?

The two noted paragraphs marked as addressing quotes one and two are certainly my thoughts on those respective issues however.

Look, I'm not dumb, I'm responding to what I'm reading.  Brockololly quoted me after a short rant about haters and then suggested that I'm "myopic" (very different from his "polite" response in the actual thread, suggesting that he felt it safe to bash me here--I'm interested in DA2, so I couldn't possibly care about DA:O, right?).  You responded to a quote from me saying you read it and "had to laugh," which suggests contempt.  And you were rude to me when I asked why I was being lumped in with these supposed "haters."  If you truly didn't mean any of this, why use quotes from me?

At this point I really don't care whether or not either of you disagree with what I wrote, I'm just annoyed that you responded to it in such a rude way, right on this forum.  If you want to have a good laugh at something I wrote, please do so in private.  I didn't want to start anything here, but if people openly bash me I am going to defend myself.

Modifié par Riona45, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:48 .

[Terra_Ex]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Terra. It's in the DA wikia.
And the size of my posts here make me feel inadequate lol

Ah, thanks Knight, I'll be doing some reading up on that tomorrow. And yeah, you've not graced us with a sizeable post for some time [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Terra. It's in the DA wikia.
And the size of my posts here make me feel inadequate lol

At least you're brave enough to post. I feel so intimidated by everyone's gigantic posts here... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Ah, but you have fun contests on the Leli thread, here we're apparently competing for the longest post/rant. But if you ever feel like ranting, feel free. I'm gonna stop for today as I fear my foul mood is spilling over into the thread[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

Riona, you're stepping into a thread with a large number of long running in-jokes, "myopic" being one of them. You'll find me and Brock to be highly cynical though not necessarilly serious in everything we write and you'll find members of this thread have strong opinions on certain issues so we'll be employing high impact opening statements, its just the way of the thread. I can appreciate some of this may come across harshly in the inflection free world of the internet, not everything is going to be sugar coated I'm afraid and similarly not everything is meant as a personal attack.

[Zjarcal]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Terra. It's in the DA wikia.
And the size of my posts here make me feel inadequate lol

At least you're brave enough to post. I feel so intimidated by everyone's gigantic posts here... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Ah, but you have fun contests on the Leli thread, here we're apparently competing for the longest post/rant. But if you ever feel like ranting, feel free. I'm gonna stop for today as I fear my foul mood is spilling over into the thread[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

Hey, competing for the longest post/rant is a lot of fun! At least it is for those of us reading the posts. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:25 .

[ximena]

Ohgod Jesus Christ. (Ugh. Excuse the redundancy this time.)

What's with the hostility this week?


*searches for something that can bring warm feelings*

Okay. Failed at the moment. XD Excuse me.


@Riona

We really did have a private discussion. Well kinda since it's not so private. It can be found in my profile if you wish to see. It refers to another person.

Brock and a couple of people here (including me) at this thread feel strongly for the warden coming back to deal with Morrigan. Why? Dealing with Morrigan as the Warden brings the most emotional engagement. Ugh.

A new character could do it. It would be fine. It would okay. But we're just saying that if the warden was brought back to be the one to deal with all the choices he/she made regarding Morrigan, it would feel much more engaging. Because what you're dealing is what that character - the warden - chose. There's a direct connection there. That connection weakens with another character.

To sum it up: A new character could do it. But the warden, not the orlesian one, would provide the most connected experience. Just my view. It's in the devs' hands.

And to dissect Brock's post to show you that he wasn't referring to you as a hater:

"Ugh...the Morrigan hate, people dismissing the Warden's role in Morrigan's story in the DA2 forums is tiresome."

The former phrase refers to a different thread. The one with "Morrigan to return along with the fade."

Then he starts talking about the warden being brought back to deal with Morrigan.


Sorry for the hostility. This week started with a lot of Morrigan hate.

And yes. "Myopic" is kinda an inside joke in this thread.





So does anyone need any hugs?

Modifié par ximena, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

ximena wrote...

We really did have a private discussion. Well kinda since it's not so private. It can be found in my profile if you wish to see. It refers to another person.

Brock and a couple of people here (including me) at this thread feel strongly for the warden coming back to deal with Morrigan. Why? Dealing with Morrigan as the Warden brings the most emotional engagement. Ugh.

A new character could do it. It would be fine. It would okay. But we're just saying that if the warden was brought back to be the one to deal with all the choices he/she made regarding Morrigan, it would feel much more engaging. Because what you're dealing is what that character - the warden - chose. There's a direct connection there. That connection weakens with another character.

To sum it up: A new character could do it. But the warden, not the orlesian one, would provide the most connected experience. Just my view. It's in the devs' hands.

So does anyone need any hugs?

I could also be included even if I wasn't earlier on the thread I can be now hehehe, my signature, status, game profile and development in the game info aaand I'm a big DW fan so yes, it's quite obvious.

I wonder if they continue the story with Morrigan and the warden how will they come back and where will they appear, it has to be through an eluvian again... but its way too soon to know at the moment.

And regarding hugs...I could use some too and cough cough cough some DW too cough cough cough

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 12 octobre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Esbatty]

*raises hand*



...



Ah thank the Maker my days off are here, this is my last shift of the week 'til thursday. Anywho, on a Morrigan related note:



Flemeth gives me this "Loki" vibe since Mary Kirby has already stated that there are two faces of human Flemeth the hag and the seductress, Morrigan's statement that Flemeth has tricked her way past death, and her general dealing with Ferelden's people of power (Maric, Warden). But one thing that bothered me was her "telling Maric the future". Flemeth can't actually see into the future or divine anything like that... rather she told him things she has put into motion.



I get the feeling she freed The Architect. For all we know he told her his plan or maybe she inspired his plans to seek out and "Free and Old God", instead the Old God was tainted, the ARchdemon rises anew, and thus the blight was triggered. This gives her the oppurtunity get Morrigan hooked up with anewly minted Grey Warden for that chance at freeing the soul of the Old God.



So yeah she's not soothsayer but rather she's letting people onto small parts of her overarching plan. But Morrigan, her daughter by blood or by machination, she indulges. Flemeth encourages her independent nature but quells the unecessary humanizing... empthatic tendencies in her. By smashing the mirror Flemeth is teaching her not to love herself, her purpose her duty is to get strong, stay focues. Flemeth not teaching her the subtleties of interactions, people skills, make sure she doesn't form attachments, leaving Morrigan without peers. By bedding men left and right and killing them afterwards she's teaching her that men are easily manipulated, base creatures, that are useful and necessary but quite disposable.



The Orlesians may be enamored with The Game but Flemeth is the damn Gamemaster, Flemeth is shaping the world to fit her own ends and Morrigan is pawn in all this but like any good game of chess a pawn can indeed become Queen.



So Dragon Age 2 we get to see a decade's worth of Flemeth's efforts coming to fruition. The Blight up ends the common folk's lives, shifts the power balance, if the Warden makes the US Morrigan's first thing she does is get in good with the Orlesian Imperial Court. If either warden performs the Dark Ritual Morrigan hauls tail over the frost back mountains baby on board. Dark Ritual is turned down but a male warden touched her even once, baby on board. So all in all she gets the hell outta Ferelden after the Siege of Denerim. Witchhunt has her coming back but its just another step in the plan, probably her own plan since Flemeth is not what Morrigan thought she was. It defintely troubles her to no end.



I could defintely see Dragon Age 3 being the rest of that decade and maybe beyond with Morrigan gathering power of her own to survive or take part or counter Flemeth's master plans. I know I defintely want to know whats beyond the mirror. What is beyond the land that sits at the edge of life and death, what places exists beyond spirits and dreams? What does Morrigan consider "safe"?



Okay consider me inspired.

[ximena]

Esbatty wrote...



So yeah she's not soothsayer but rather she's letting people onto small parts of her overarching plan. But Morrigan, her daughter by blood or by machination, she indulges. Flemeth encourages her independent nature but quells the unecessary humanizing... empthatic tendencies in her. By smashing the mirror Flemeth is teaching her not to love herself, her purpose her duty is to get strong, stay focues. Flemeth not teaching her the subtleties of interactions, people skills, make sure she doesn't form attachments, leaving Morrigan without peers. By bedding men left and right and killing them afterwards she's teaching her that men are easily manipulated, base creatures, that are useful and necessary but quite disposable.

The Orlesians may be enamored with The Game but Flemeth is the damn Gamemaster, Flemeth is shaping the world to fit her own ends and Morrigan is pawn in all this but like any good game of chess a pawn can indeed become Queen.

I suddenly am reminded of that one line Flemeth says about being curious with what Morrigan would do once she is out of the wilds. (Said after offering Morrigan to the warden's cause.) I have a feeling she knew Morrigan would have an oppurtunity to break the indoctrination Flemeth drilled into her. (I.E. The warden getting through her shell and showing her what being human is. Though she combats this and thus retreats to her shell albeit confused of the feelings it has brought upon her.)

Can Morrigan really be a Queen though? Or is she just foolishly trying to fight something that's beyond her? 

So Dragon Age 2 we get to see a decade's worth of Flemeth's efforts coming to fruition. The Blight up ends the common folk's lives, shifts the power balance, if the Warden makes the US Morrigan's first thing she does is get in good with the Orlesian Imperial Court. If either warden performs the Dark Ritual Morrigan hauls tail over the frost back mountains baby on board. Dark Ritual is turned down but a male warden touched her even once, baby on board. So all in all she gets the hell outta Ferelden after the Siege of Denerim. Witchhunt has her coming back but its just another step in the plan, probably her own plan since Flemeth is not what Morrigan thought she was. It defintely troubles her to no end.

After  The Warden "disposes" of Flemeth, I think one of  Morrigan's plan was trying to find something that can shield her from Flemeth who would probably come after her body. But Nooooooooooo. Flemeth isn't what she seems to be. *cue some dark music* It troubles her, but then she seems to be happily talking about this change. XD

I could defintely see Dragon Age 3 being the rest of that decade and maybe beyond with Morrigan gathering power of her own to survive or take part or counter Flemeth's master plans. I know I defintely want to know whats beyond the mirror. What is beyond the land that sits at the edge of life and death, what places exists beyond spirits and dreams? What does Morrigan consider "safe"?

Okay consider me inspired.

I too want to see what this mirror world is. Is it the black city? Or is it somewhere else - a place only known to a few?  

So many questions and we have to wait for a couple of years to get most of it answered.


@Lord Anthonior

Haha. What? Did I hear someone say DW? Working on it though slowly. Still have to deal with uni.

[Lord_Anthonior]

ximena wrote...

@Lord Anthonior

Haha. What? Did I hear someone say DW? Working on it though slowly. Still have to deal with uni.

Hahaha, I didn't realized I coughed that loud   I know about the uni, just thought it was a good moment to cough and mention it hehehe, I mentioned something about photoshop and after effects on your deviant art page about lightsabers and rotoscoping so I know those programs takes a lot of time and even more when its for school.

I think I remember in a thread in the wikia that the only eluvian I remember is located in soldier's keep but if they return along with their son, where could it be?

I like there is so much story to tell in dragon age and Morrigan and the warden can still have a fair share of it since they are important characters in shaping Thedas history and their own.

As for Flemeth, she is a real puzzle of what are her plans and the means to accomplish them and if the warden can do something about it so to give freedom to Morrigan.

[ximena]

Hmm. I seem to be very active with posting this time.

Terra_Ex wrote...

And we're very grateful for your efforts, ximena

Normally, I would write something myself and my works across various fandoms are usually pretty popular (moreso with females for some unknown reason) but with the Morrigan / Warden setup, I kind of don't want to touch it, I've got too much respect for all that setup I suppose and would rather see where the writers take it. It's strange and hard to explain, something like how I dislike making alterations to the canon when restoring stuff relating to Morrigan I guess, but it's bizarre and has never held me back before...

Ah. I think I could understand that, Terra. Would have not touched it too were it not for the urge and calling to bombard the fandom with Morrigan. XD You see at that time I decided I had to do it myself, it was more like, "What?! ONLY THIS?! NEED. MOARRR." That and the game left much to be desired.

Lord Anthonoir wrote....
Hahaha, I didn't realized I coughed that loud /images/forum/emoticons/lol.png I know about the uni, just thought it was a good moment to cough and mention it hehehe, I mentioned something about photoshop and after effects on your deviant art page about lightsabers and rotoscoping so I know those programs takes a lot of time and even more when its for school.

Ah so it was you. I swear some of my readers there should also say "oh by the way... this is also (insert name here) from the forums." XD Worry not though, I have free time starting thursday. Only have to study a couple of things then it's freeedoommm.

I think I remember in a thread in the wikia that the only eluvian I remember is located in soldier's keep but if they return along with their son, where could it be?

There could always be secret eluvians in a ruin somewhere though. I suddenly had an image in my head about Morrigan finding a Griffon in mirror world and bringing it back with her. Epic re-entry? Hell yes. (That would need a bigger eluvian though.)  XD

Modifié par ximena, 12 octobre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Esbatty]

I suddenly am reminded of that one line Flemeth says about being curious with what Morrigan would do once she is out of the wilds. (Said after offering Morrigan to the warden's cause.) I have a feeling she knew Morrigan would have an oppurtunity to break the indoctrination Flemeth drilled into her. (I.E. The warden getting through her shell and showing her what being human is. Though she combats this and thus retreats to her shell albeit confused of the feelings it has brought upon her.)

Thats the thing its like Flemeth is "time sharing" Morrigan with The Warden (male warden specifically? I forget) when she says "You can have her... for a time." I remember thinking 'Oh no you didn't'. You're right though, Flemeth doesn't need Morrigan "indocrinated" to suit Flemeth's plans. Flemeth seems to be very flexible allowing for betrayals and changes in loyalty and what not but she's been around for long ass time. I hate to say it but she's like Batman, she's planned most, if not all, contingencies.

Leliana evens speaks of the Witch of the Wilds legend existing even in the forests of Orlais. So maybe Flemeth is running a franchise and didn't "meat suit" all her daughters. "Go be fruitful and multiply my lovelies, we'll need many to make the world change." Something like that.

Can Morrigan really be a Queen though? Or is she just foolishly trying to fight something that's beyond her?

 
Thats the thing Flemeth is moving the pieces around, she's the player, she's not a piece. And in Chess almost every piece is expendable... even The Queen, because you can always make another pawn Queen. Morrigan with or without the Old God Child is privvy to some of Flemeth's plans. But by crossing the mirror Morrigan is going to hide out or travel to gain power to survive or fight or participate in what is to come.

With a male warden who loves Morrigan having him come with her allows her a modicum of "What she wants". Morrigan wasn't allowed to "love Flemeth". When Morrigan asks about your mother and you give the line "I love my Mother... blah blah blah." she honestly tells you, in private in camp, that a part of her wishes she could feel the same way. So her beloved crosses into the mirror with her, she advises before "its best you not come with" probably because of the things she's going to be doing he might not agree with in quest for power for herself or herself and their child.

After  The Warden "disposes" of Flemeth, I think one of  Morrigan's plan was trying to find something that can shield her from Flemeth who would probably come after her body. But Nooooooooooo. Flemeth isn't what she seems to be. *cue some dark music* It troubles her, but then she seems to be happily talking about this change. XD

Thats duty speaking. Thats "Big Picture" Morrigan giddy of the change that is to come. Change is coming, change is good is part of Morrigan's "only the strong shall survive" world view. To Morrigan its ridiculous that the Elves were trounced not once but twice by Humanity. To Morrigan the caste system sucks amongst the dwarves because it takes alot of boning or a damn miracle to rise in your station. She's all about the freedom, yet she is chained to her duty thanks to Flemeth. Morrigan wants love but Flemeth denied her this. She finds it either in friendship or romantic love with The Warden. What Morrigan wants and what Morrigan needs are different things so she's basically of two minds on her place in the world.

I too want to see what this mirror world is. Is it the black city? Or is it somewhere else - a place only known to a few?  

So many questions and we have to wait for a couple of years to get most of it answered.

Gaider needs to give us The Young Morrigan Chronicles. Wait... no, scratch that. I don't think I want to know about those dudes she's boned over time. Its upsetting. To uhh... my inner Warden. Yeah. *cough*

@Lord Anthonior

Haha. What? Did I hear someone say DW? Working on it though slowly. Still have to deal with uni.

And take your time with Demons, i'm a firm believer in not rushing greatness.

[Morrigans God son]

Riona45 wrote...

"Arguments of the haters?" Who says I'm a hater? It's it just because I don't agree with something Brockololly said?

To me, you're the one who's coming off as a "hater," laughing at someone you don't know just for the hell of it.

Riona, we just don't want a character scraped everytime BioWare makes a new sequel. Continuation is important to some players.

DA:O - Warden.
DA2 - Hawke.
DA3 - Santa Claus.
DA4 - Shepard junior.
The hanging plots would be maddening.