Edit: Holy crap, I just wrote a novel. This may be my longest post ever- consider yourself duly warned!
BLARGH! I just had a massive post written up.....and I clicked out of the wrong tab.
The perils of writing insanley long posts. Lets try that again.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
My preference for the warden's final act would be something Throne of Bhaal-esque in scale, with Morrigan/Flemeth and OGB all possibly involved so I'm thinking it's end-game material.[/quote]
Definitely. While of course first the Warden needs to return with Morrigan, given how WH ends and all, I'd think it only fitting that the Morrigan/Flemeth/OGB plot be probably tied to the definitive conclusion to the Warden as well.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
A situation like this would be highly desirable and would play off the information gleaned from Morri in DA:O and Flemeth in DA2. I'd say we are likely headed somewhat in this direction already with regards to Morrigan vs Flemeth.[/quote]
Yes, I'm looking forward to hopefully getting more info out of Flemeth in DA2 or at least maybe being able to see the othe side of the coin as it were. Particularly what Flemeth has to say maybe about Morrigan and the Warden after the Warden potentially killed her. Or just how much we even see of Flemeth in DA2. It would certainly be interesting if Flemeth cast doubt on Morrigan's goals and plans, maybe trying to paint Morrigan as the true monster in all of this. Lots of potential there, its a matter of BioWare doing something with it.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I think by and large, people are altogether far too quick to disregard the warden's story as done with. Now unless Gaider was BSing in the PAX vids, the concept of continuing the wardens story was at least considered and for all intents and purposes still remains on the table. Sure you have the US (which I'll talk more on later), but there's another thing to consider - surely it's conceivable that you may at some point want to play through DA:O>DA2>onwards more than once and *gasp* make different choices to view different results as the series moves forwards.[/quote]
Right, and with their telemetry data they probably have a good idea how many people that finished Origins ended up with what ending or roughly how many people did th DR vs US. So surely if about 70% of people did the DR, then they'd want to put more resources into that vs. the US endings. Which are just that really though- endings. The DR is a beginning.
I think BIoWare knows people would like to see the Warden again, well at least a good number of people would. The issue becomes how that jives with the whole voiced PC mandate it seems.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'm going to maintain my stand that any ending is acceptable, even the death of both so long as it has meaning and does actually serve as a definitive ending to the arc. Warden disappearing after mirror world/stabbing/receiving the warning doesn't provide the closure most players seek.[/quote]
Absolutely- both the Warden and Morrigan possily dying together could be an incredibly powerful ending. The tragic ending seems a bit obvious, but so long as we avoid a DR type/Plot Hammer scenario and at least can have the Warden there with Morrigan at whatever end, I'll be happy.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
*sigh* The guy literally lives to torture us. [/quote]
I thought I knew what Gaider planned. I thought what he craved were the tears of fanboys and fangirls. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. He is no developer, no writer...he is not even truly human.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
It's strange and hard to explain, something like how I dislike making alterations to the canon when restoring stuff relating to Morrigan I guess, but it's bizarre and has never held me back before...[/quote]
Yeah, Ximena does a wonderful job of balancing both sides of Morrigan, both the softer, more human side only the Warden sees, as well as the harsher, more caustic side. Its a balancing act to be sure, and in some of the fanfics I've read with Morrigan, it seems Morrigan either becomes too lovey and mushy or she turns to harsh and mean spirited. SHe has both of those personalities, but its how they're balanced by her interactions with the Warden that makes her a great character I think.
I still have my idea for a comic in my head--have it play out like Witch Hunt should have been basically. Maybe one day I'll try it out...
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'd actually like to believe that BioWare is capable of meeting the expectations they've created. Having listened to Gaider's podcast recently where he discusses world states you can draw some hope from that I suppose. The primary cause of our dissent seems to be coming from the DA2 brigade who categorically state that the warden can't come back because "their warden is dead", "they dislike the warden" and other such pearls of wisdom. It comes back to what I mentioned earlier (and what Gaider touched upon in the podcast) - the flexibility is there to go back and play through multiple times and see different consequences.[/quote]
I'd like to believe that too. Probably the one time in recent memory since Origins came out where I've really been pleasantly surprised with DA was with Witch Hunt where Ariane mentions Morrigan's Ring. Seriously, that is probably one of my favorite moments in all of DA and totally took me by surprise. Its a little thing that they certainly didn't need to have in there, but enriched the experience loads I think. Its the perfect sort of moment that falls into one of the things
Chris Avellone mentions in what makes a good RPG- having characters, story or the world react to the custom player character.
They've certainly kept the door open on the Hero of Ferelden though and all Wardens for that matter. If anything though, WH provides more reasons why the Warden could come back than why they wouldn't.Maybe thats just the optimist in me thinking.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
If a relatively minor thing like drunken Alistair can merit a cameo (a choice I'm guessing is dwarfed several times over by those who decided to keep Alistair sober and in-play) then I don't see why a reappearance of the warden is so far-fetched. [/quote]
Right- surely BIoWare has all the telemetry on such choices and if they're looking to be all resource thrifty, they'd likely see that (I'd guess) more people did the DR than the US and would spend their resources accordingly when going forward with the whole "no canon" approach. And besides, the US is an ending to a story. The DR is a beginning.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Oh I've seen you and others fighting the good fight over on the DA2 boards, I'd join you but I don't have the patience to argue back and forth atm, especially when opposing views on the internet are rarely revised via a war of words
Writing off the WH endings as the "end of the warden, deal with it" will retroactively annoy a good many people. Morrigan fans more than any other.[/quote]
The ending to WH already annoyed a great many people- many with their annoyance only allayed by the notion that thats not the true end to the Warden or Morrigan.
But yeah, I'll try to limit my posts to developers in the DA2 mess....I believe there is some saying about arguing on the internet....
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Whilst his posts are certainly better thought out than most the core issue is that you end up supporting WH as a convenient get out clause/gotcha for BioWare to easily handwave the player's character, and that sets a bad precedent, irrespective of your opinion on said character. Ultimately, should that happen it will simply prove my core problem with DA's current model.[/quote]
Exactly. There are a million and one ways to kill off or write off a character. At least if they're going to bury the Warden, give him something to do to rival the US and not just give him/her the Viconia treatment. Like you said, if thats how they intend to treat their characters going forward, then I have no interest in that sort of story telling.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Sure, if you did the US, that character is dead and has no further interest in any ongoing plotlines (but that was your choice to make, an alternative was presented), but the reverse is true, those of us that chose to live and follow through with that thread shouldn't be denied a fitting resolution because some players chose not to do it for a particular playthrough. [/quote]
Absolutely, and thats the thing people conveniently forget when bringing up the "no canon" approach. Its always how "My Warden is dead!" as if that precludes the Warden from EVERYONE's future game. I'd go so far as to say that the success/failure of BioWare's love of the "no canon" hinges on how they handle the DR- if they just marginalize the consequences of this either by ditching the Warden or ignoring the OGB, then whats the point?
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I could list just as many reasons for the warden not to return as I could for him/her to return. The list of reasons not to however support the "easy way out" for BioWare, if players want to interpret the WH endings as BioWare's convenient write-off mechanic, sure they're free to do so however they're shooting themselves in the foot at the same time, unless they like the revolving door and wafer-thin plot threads interlinking the various stories of the DA universe. Several people (not just us Morri fans) have noted that WH made them think there was more in store for the warden (and the GWs in general).[/quote]
Yeah, WH I think got a terrible reception because it was marketed as the epic conclusion to Morrigan and the Warden's story, but of course we know that Morrigan's story isn't over. So yeah, if WH was it for the Warden but Morrigan is still going on- thats beyond lame. But I'd like to think BioWare is better than that.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I see all sorts of nonsense on the DA2 boards - the warden can only fight blights being a recurring theme. Characters evolve over the course of the game, likewise their goals, desires and impetus (observe weakling Hawke change his lot from refugee to champion), even moreso when that development charts multiple titles, this is true of both your companions and the player character. The warden could quite easily face a non-blight threat, you spend a good deal of Origins doing precisely that. Furthermore, as we move further afield from Ferelden the distinction between a Ferelden/Orlesian warden matters less and less. Much like in BG2, the Bhaalspawn was the saviour of Baldur's Gate after halting Sarevok's plans, yet after being kidnapped and whisked away to Amn, his past deeds had little relevance.[/quote]
Precisely.
The thing that sucks in my view is that had DA2 been in Orlais with the Warden, how awesome would that be? First you'd be a Warden and able to see more "true" Wardens at a place like Montsimmard. Then maybe you'd be recognized as a Fereldener by the Orlesians, maybe even as the Hero of Ferelden or maybe not. But I think that works well in introducing a new world like Orlais too, as it would not only be all new to the PC but also to the player.
But all the BG2 comparisons are apt- much like all the Bhaalspawn were different, you could have shown other Wardens dealing with being a Warden in different ways via their personalities and such. Or having characters chage and develop as time went on. So much wasted potential in not following through with having DA2 with the Warden in Orlais, tracking down Morrigan. *sigh*
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'm certainly not blind to the many impediments to utilising the warden once again, but if you're going to provide a signifcant choice in the closing moments, work to underline its (and the proposer's) importance in a DLC and then say "oh sorry, you can't have that character back because of xyz, finish the story with this character instead" you've pretty much ruined the whole thing. [/quote]
Exactly. And thats what it would amount to if you toss in some new PC for the culmination of Morrigan's story. IMO, it would totally turn me off to DA.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
That's my problem with Gaider never wanting to give certain things a decent measure of closure. Using Hawke to further Flemeth's angle whilst simultaneously taking down the Chantry works to an extent to maintain the suspense of the Morri/Flemeth plot. It's got to come full circle sooner or later though.[/quote]
RIght, its like Gaider said a couple days ago when I posted one of my trademark "Have DA3 be with Morrigan/Warden/OGB/Flemeth blurbs" where Gaider said something like how they're building towards
something and hope to keep it interesting in the meantime.I just can't shake the feeling that DA2 seems like a side quest while waiting to get back to the real deal.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
So while I would like to see some hope in Gaider's words, I'm not convinced that this shift is a two way street, unless DA2's changes are not well received. Although Bethesda plods along quite happily with a silent PC, maybe if the Fallout/Elder Scrolls games can increase the party-based aspects of the game hope remains...[/quote]
And I was even reading about the new Deus Ex game coming next year (early next year I think too- more competition for DA2)- and how they're having a dialogue wheel like BioWare, but *gasp* allowing the player to see the full text choices too! I have no idea how that would work, but still, it seems as if BIoWare is hung up on all this cinematic mumbo jumbo and less caring about making an actual RPG.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
My concern is they are altering things for the wrong reasons - ie: perhaps DA:O sold well on consoles precisely because it brought back many old school elements to players that had never experienced anything similar before? I own all platforms (though barely get time to utilise them) so I've no great preference, but its disconcerting to witness an apparent need to "amp things up/modernise" across the board so soon after the apparent "return to our roots."[/quote]
Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed DAO precisely because compared to other RPGs out there, there aren't any party based tactical combat RPGs around. The gameplay may have been deemed "old school" but amidst all the copy cat action games out now, Origins was unique. Now at least, even if DA2 sort of functions like Origins, they've seemingly changed the look of the combat to such an extent that it
looks like a generic hack and slash, and not even a very good one at that. (Reading the comments on that video will make your head explode at the console stupidity, wow...have fun with your new audience BioWare!)
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
On a strategy related note though, Shogun 2 is looking nice
[/quote]
Very nice indeed. If DA was to blend any genre with RPG, I would have hoped it to have been RTS. Of course since the consoles are BIoWare's audience that won't happen, but even the iso view combat is akin to an RTS. And being able to command larger armies in a Total War type way in the DA world woud be amazing.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
In the realm of player interaction & responses, I guess you could liken text to sandbox gameplay and VO to "on the rails" which illustrates the limitations and merits of both approaches quite nicely.[/quote]
Right, one gives you freedom and choice in how to approach things while the other holds your hand and limits your imagination.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well, I want to like DA2, but the information presented thus far and the manner in which it has been presented are making that difficult. Due to that and Laidlaw/Gaider's comments on Morrigan returning in a future title, (though Gaider seems to be reneging on his no Claudia Black VO for DA2 comments, which you caught nicely Brock) I'd rather speculate on that for the moment. The big thing for me in DA2 is VO, but I've said enough on that already.[/quote]
Yeah, same feelings here. Although I don't know what Gaider was getting at with saying they hadn't even said if Morrigan was in DA2 or not in that one thread. If they do force her in there minus the Warden, ugh....
But there is some neat news on the dialogue system and companions having homes kind of like BG2 in
this thread. So no Awakening style environmental dialogue at least, thank goodness. I'm still worried we'll get Garrus "I'm making calibrations!" situations though. And it seems you can't really click on the companions to start dialogue at any time like Origins. hmmm....
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Now, based off the data they've gathered I believe Gaider said the "majority" never completed it, which is the typical result of a lengthy single player rpg outside of fans of the genre. Have we transitioned away from a lengthy 80hr title to a Mass Effect length outing for DA2 as a direct result of this gathered data? Another interesting point, if most people didn't finish the game, would there not be an assumption there that their player character would still be alive for any future sequel?[/quote]
Well, the thing is that with ME2, Casey Hudson mentioned some of the telemetry they gathered from that not too long ago and even there where the average completion time for ME2 was I think 33 hours, only 50% of people finished it. So I don't dare to think that that gives them the incentive to make things even shorter than 30 hours, lest you ened up with a 5 hour Modern Warfare rubbish.
I just think its stupid to cut down on game length so much, especially in a single player game. Its not like there is multplayer to keep people playing. If you make the game long and with good replayability, then I may be playing it still when you release DLC- that along with mods is what kept me interested in Origins for so long and surely why I ended up buying some of the DLC. BUt with something like ME2, I burned through that several times over in the first month or so and plus the lack of "emotional engagement" due to HERPDERP Shepard, I don't feel at all compelled to buy any of the DLC, no matter how good I keep hearing it is.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The PC version will afford you a better experience imo, especially since the ultimate edition is dirt cheap I say go for it.[/quote]
Yeah, the Ultimate Edition is a steal at $50 for everything. Makes me wonder if I should just hold out for the inevitable ultimate edition of DA2....
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I do wonder if we'll ever even get a clear answer at all as to Flemeth's true nature or if they'll simply pull a Witch Hunt with most of the Morrigan/Flemeth stuff going forward and constantly tease something more, but never provide any meaningful answers.
[/quote]
Rhetorical question, Brock?[/quote]
No, genuine. I can totally see them leaving us in the dark as to the hows and whys of Morrigan and Flemeth's plans but simply letting us see the results. Some mystery is good, but it seems as if BioWare is holding out too much thus far.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'm having a slow day (I'm having a downright awful day tbh, but that's besides the point) but is this clan the same one that Morrigan steals the book from?[/quote]
No- I believe that the Clan Flemeth wants Hawke to deliver the package to is the one from the Dalish Origin which moved north to the Free Marches. Thats different from Ariane's clan which is the one Morrigan stole the book from.
[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Morrigan is a loner by nature and has stood on her own for a good long while before meeting the warden, it's the damn interaction with the warden once you get past the stonewall that make her interesting. And for whom does the barrier come down for, oh yes, the Warden. Characters of Morrigan's ilk are interesting through your PC who breaks through to that character, the ice melts for that character alone, while you would likely see something of a shift in her attitude toward others, she's nowhere near trusting of anyone but the warden to talk as openly as she did in Origins. Thus, no Warden, no depth. [/quote]
Quoted for TRUTHB)
[quote]lilmeezer wrote...
Like the Native American coyote stories (and Fen'Harel is appropriately shown in his statues in a dog form)!
Wikipedia article on Coyote as TricksterSome Coyote stories are mixed in here:
Native American Lore Index[/quote]
Very nice find! No doubt I'd bet the writers do draw some inspiration from stories and such like those when coming up with stuff in DA.
[quote]Zjarcal wrote...
Hey, competing for the longest post/rant is a lot of fun! At least it is for those of us reading the posts. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie][/quote]
Heh....I wonder what the actual longest post is on this thread....My "review" of Witch Hunt was pretty damn long as I remember it...
[quote]ximena wrote...
Sorry for the hostility. This week started with a lot of Morrigan hate. [/quote]
Nobody likes MorriHate, least of all Morrigan
[quote]ximena wrote...
So does anyone need any hugs?
[/quote]
Who doesn't like hugs!?:happy:
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Flemeth gives me this "Loki" vibe since Mary Kirby has already stated that there are two faces of human Flemeth the hag and the seductress, Morrigan's statement that Flemeth has tricked her way past death, and her general dealing with Ferelden's people of power (Maric, Warden). But one thing that bothered me was her "telling Maric the future". Flemeth can't actually see into the future or divine anything like that... rather she told him things she has put into motion.[/quote]
Very much so on Flemeth being similar to Loki. Hmmm..Flemeth's ability to see into the future or at least make it seem that way is interesting. I actually started reading The Stolen Throne over again and I'll re-read The Calling, but doesn't Flemeth say something to Maric along the lines of Loghain betraying him, each time worst than the last? Sort of implying Loghain's eventual betrayal at Ostagar? How would Flemeth have been able to control that if she doesn't have some future telling ability?
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
I get the feeling she freed The Architect. For all we know he told her his plan or maybe she inspired his plans to seek out and "Free and Old God", instead the Old God was tainted, the ARchdemon rises anew, and thus the blight was triggered. This gives her the oppurtunity get Morrigan hooked up with anewly minted Grey Warden for
that chance at freeing the soul of the Old God.[/quote]
Well, I guess if Flemeth essentially created the Architect who in turn created the Blight, which in turn resulted in Loghain "betraying" Cailain, Maric's son? If Flemeth had some hand in the Architect's intelligence, that could link together with what Morrigan tells the Orlesian in Witch Hunt that Flemeth had more to do with the Blight than the Warden would even believe.
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
The Orlesians may be enamored with The Game but Flemeth is the damn Gamemaster, Flemeth is shaping the world to fit her own ends and Morrigan is pawn in all this but like any good game of chess a pawn can indeed become Queen.[/quote]
Oooooh! I like that!
Morrigan does seemingly want the power that Flemeth wields, maybe not the abomination aspect, but she certainly wants to unlock the power within Flemeth's grimoires. So sure, Morrigan would want to be the most powerful Witch of the Wilds, if given the chance, I think. I think her description in the toolset pretty much says as much:
[quote]
Morrigan was raised in the marshes by her sorceress mother, Flemeth, and had little contact with society proper.
She and Flemeth have a relationship more like servant and master than like mother and daughter.
She fears being rendered powerless (magically or personally).
Morrigan lacks the will to care about most things enough to excite herself over them. Her primary concern is her survival. She has a difficult time relating to other people, and feels extremely vulnerable outside of the marsh. Her sense of humor is dark and twisted, and she finds the most morbid things amusing.
Her primary goal is to gain skills and knowledge and become a powerful sorceress in her own right. She believes that having a child with the PC's blood will give her access to this power.[/quote]
And then there is that one banter between her and Zevran where he hints at her wanting to kill Flemeth to basically become THE Witch of the Wilds, which she of course denies.
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
I could defintely see Dragon Age 3 being the rest of that decade and maybe beyond with Morrigan gathering power of her own to survive or take part or counter Flemeth's master plans. I know I defintely want to know whats beyond the mirror. What is beyond the land that sits at the edge of life and death, what places exists beyond spirits and dreams? What does Morrigan consider "safe"?[/quote]
All good questions. Its far out to speculate on DA3, but I do wonder whether maybe they start DA3 from the end of Witch Hunt and use sort of a framed narrative approach or something to show the passage of time.
Excellent post though!
[quote]ximena wrote...
I suddenly am reminded of that one line Flemeth says about being curious with what Morrigan would do once she is out of the wilds. (Said after offering Morrigan to the warden's cause.) I have a feeling she knew Morrigan would have an oppurtunity to break the indoctrination Flemeth drilled into her. (I.E. The warden getting through her shell and showing her what being human is. Though she combats this and thus retreats to her shell albeit confused of the
feelings it has brought upon her.)
Can Morrigan really be a Queen though? Or is she just foolishly trying to fight something that's beyond her? [/quote]
Yeah, I was thinking of that line of Flemeth being curious as to what Morrigan would do with her freedom. So I guess did Flemeth expect the Warden to kill her? Did she know Morrigan would try to kill her? It almost seems like its not the first time Morrigan has tried.
As for Queen Morrigan, I don't know that she'd want to literally rule over anyone. Thats just not her personality or the type of power she would want. Her desire for power is more to do with having the power necessary to survive in the world and take care of herself. So that seemingly means being the most powerful mage she can be. But I just worry/think perhaps she may be getting in over her head. That Flemeth will be constantly one step ahead of her.
[quote]ximena wrote...
After The Warden "disposes" of Flemeth, I think one of Morrigan's plan was trying to find something that can shield her from Flemeth who would probably come after her body. But Nooooooooooo. Flemeth isn't what she seems to be. *cue some dark music* It troubles her, but then she seems to be happily talking about this change. XD[/quote]
Well, Flemeth may still steal bodies. I think before, Morrigan though that immortality and the body snatching was the worst thing about Flemeth but there is something beyond that.
But yeah, it is odd in WItch Hunt how Morrigan is talking all fearful and distressed about Flemeth then seemingly shifts topics to the "change" coming tothe world, where she is talking as if its some positive thing or at least something she would welcome. So does Morrigan support this change? But then why would she warn the Orlesian about it? Unless Flemeth has some role in it too? Or maybe Flemeth will try to use the change for her own ends?
[quote]ximena wrote...
I too want to see what this mirror world is. Is it the black city? Or is it somewhere else - a place only known to a few?
So many questions and we have to wait for a couple of years to get most of it answered.[/quote]
Yeah, a much better cliffhanger would have even to have just shown both Morrigan and the Warden or even just Morrigan going through the portal and either just show a reaction shot of the Warden/Morrigan on the other side or to just give us a brief glimpse, but still not explain anything. Would have been more satisfying than simply seeing them leave.
It could be the Black City though- I guess technically it may be beyond the Fade, since its technically inaccessible from the Fade even though you can see it. But what would Morrigan be seeking there with Old God Baby?
Too many questions....questions which DA2 probably won't even answer...grrrrrr.
[quote]ximena wrote...
Ah. I think I could understand that, Terra. Would have not touched it too were it not for the urge and calling to bombard the fandom with Morrigan. XD You see at that time I decided I had to do it myself, it was more like, "What?! ONLY THIS?! NEED. MOARRR." That and the game left much to be desired.[/quote]
You rock, XimenaB) Morrigan fans the world over salute you!
If I was more motivated I'd try my hand at some Warden/Morrigan stuff but well..... maybe in the future.....
[quote]ximena wrote...
There could always be secret eluvians in a ruin somewhere though. I suddenly had an image in my head about Morrigan finding a Griffon in mirror world and bringing it back with her. Epic re-entry? Hell yes.
(That would need a bigger eluvian though.) XD[/quote]
Oh Hell yeah.
Hahaha- With DA2 playing up their "hot rod samurai" "amped up" art style I just suddenly pictured Morrigan busting out of the Eluvian on a griffon like the movie poster for that old animated movie Heavy Metal- hahahaha:
:lol:
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Thats the thing its like Flemeth is "time sharing" Morrigan with The Warden (male warden specifically? I forget) when she says "You can have her... for a time." I remember thinking 'Oh no you didn't'. You're right though, Flemeth doesn't need Morrigan "indocrinated" to suit Flemeth's plans. Flemeth seems to be very flexible allowing for betrayals and changes in loyalty and what not but she's been around for long ass time. I hate to say it but she's like Batman, she's planned most, if not all,contingencies.[/quote]
Yeah, for all we know Flemeth has things set up in one big Xanatos Gambit, so having the Warden kill her and have Morrigan go off on her own was what she planned from the start.
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Leliana evens speaks of the Witch of the Wilds legend existing even in the forests of Orlais. So maybe Flemeth is running a franchise and didn't "meat suit" all her daughters. "Go be fruitful and multiply my lovelies, we'll need many to make the world change." Something like that.[/quote]
Could be- Zevran also makes mention of a tale of a Witch of the Wild in one of the swamps in Antiva. So it definitely could be that there are more of Morrigan's "sisters" out there as Zevran alludes to. Maybe in DA2 thats what Flemeth is doing? Assembling an army of Witches of the Wild, like she supposedly did against Cormac in legend?
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
With a male warden who loves Morrigan having him come with her allows her a modicum of "What she wants". Morrigan wasn't allowed to "love Flemeth". When Morrigan asks about your mother and you give the line "I love my Mother... blah blah blah." she honestly tells you, in private in camp, that a part of her wishes she could feel the same way. So her beloved crosses into the mirror with her, she advises before "its best you not come with" probably because of the things she's going to be doing he might not agree with in quest for power for herself or herself and their child.[/quote]
Very good points. That line she makes about maybe it being best for the Warden and herself to stay behind- I wonder if thats in part connected to what she tells the Orlesian to be on the lookout and for the Wardens to be wary. Maybe Morrigan knows something that the Wardens will be needed in Thedas when either Flemeth gets going or the change comes and she thinks that the Hero of Ferelden should stay behind to lead the Wardens in that? Or it could be like you said, and Morrigan may either have to do things the Warden may find unpleasant in her path to power or something like she may have to put herself in extreme danger, and she wouldn't want the romancing Warden to try and stop her from doing something risky in pursuit of power.
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
She's all about the freedom, yet she is chained to her duty thanks to Flemeth. Morrigan wants love but Flemeth denied her this. She finds it either in friendship or romantic love with The Warden. What Morrigan wants and what Morrigan needs are different things so she's basically of two minds on her place in the world.[/quote]
Thats wonderfully said. It fits Morrigan perfectly as you can see that conflict between her personal desires to be loved by the Warden and what she feels compelled to do with her plan- you see it in her leaving after the DR and again in Witch Hunt when you can ask her what she wants and she says in a very emotionally conflicted tone: "What I want....is unimportant now."
[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What
I am mainly worried about is not Morrigan fighting something that might be beyond her (though that is a concern, for both her and the OGB). It's rather Morrigan potentially exceeding the limits. She speaks of change, she speaks of forced change where men will fight it and presumabely die, before accepting it. Now I trust Morrigan, but I also know her. And when she said that, I was skeptical and worried. I don't mind her accumulating more power, but knowing her, I thought that power might become too dangerous. [/quote]
Exactly my feelings too, KoP. My Warden has been there to protect Morrigan in the past and the stuff she is dealing with is some rather high level stuff- super abomination Flemeth, some portal to another world, Old God souls- thats some heavy stuff. And my Warden would be damned if he was just going to sit around while Morrigan and his kid might be getting into trouble.
Like I've said, I could see BioWare writing this such that Morrigan gets in over her head with whatever she is dealing with and maybe gets in too deep in her quest for power. Maybe it backfires somehow?
[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And that's a major reason why I went with her. Threw away everything, all the power and titles I accumulated, all the plans I had for Ferelden.It was an incredibly hard choice. But I realised that Morrigan, in her attempt to do whatever it is she is planing, we will need a humanising moderating influence. Now I am far from being a moral absolutist, but I personally try to seek moderation in everything. And I think Morrigan needs that. [/quote]
Absolutely- much as Morrigan was sort of the devil whispering in the Warden's ear at times in Origins, in the time to come, the Warden may be the angel (or devil) whispering in Morrigan's ear, affecting her plan.
[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Another reason I went there is to help her raise the OGB. Just like Morrigan needs a mdoerating influence, so too does the OGB. I presume that he's going to grow up to be quite powerful. Perhaps even more powerful than Morrigan even after she gets the power she seeks now. He too will need to be raised in a moderate fashion and while I do think that Morrigan softened up, I still don't see her being capable of raising the child on
her own.[/quote]
Completely agree too. I'd wager those Wardens that did the DR and then stabbed Morrigan, that Morrigan sure as hell is going to raise that kid a bit differently than if you left on good terms- in that case I wouldn't be surprised if stabbing her is sort of her moment akin to Flemeth having Connabar kill Osen- the moment when she felt betrayed by the world. But on the flip side, hey- if Morrigan is all super important plan person, somebody has to bake the bread and paint the shed!
[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
For those who left with Morrigan, why did you do it? Did you think it was a hard choice?[/quote]
My Cousland left for most of the same reasons you stated. By the time Awakening was over he felt like had given his all to Ferelden and the Wardens many times over and he needed some time to get his own affairs in order. So when it came time to make his decision, he knew he left Ferelden in the best way he could have, Fergus had things under control in Highever, he wasn't going to let Morrigan go when who knows what she might need help with in Mirror World and he didn't want to be a deadbeat dad like that drunkard Oghren.
[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And that's possible the longest post I've written since I can't remember [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]
[/quote]
Same here!
And if you;ve seen the leaked DA2 videos you probably notice the odd zombie/googly eyes everyone seems to have. Amazingly I seem to have found an image of Morrigan from DA2! Amazing!
Modifié par Brockololly, 12 octobre 2010 - 09:18 .
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