'Tis that time again, this time we've got more speculation and even a rant mixed in here somewhere... Let's see if I can beat Brock...
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
Origins was heavily criticised cause the pre-released vids gave away much of the story. Loghains betrayal, for example, was clearly visible in one of the vids months before release and spoiled a big suprise. Oghren, the secret old-favorite, was shown in the very first Awakening screen. Maybe they're just trying to avoid this now, and thats why they don't release new game footage?
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I've no desire to see spoilers however as it stands, EA scrambles to take down any videos of DA2 featuring gameplay while Bioware are reluctant even so close to release to show any footage. If they're so confident in this new amped up combat what's holding them back? Show don't tell is what it comes down to.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
It seems i really need to buy Nier anytime soon. *sigh* and for the bros, i guess i do not need to tell anyone, but just take a look at the DA 2 boards....
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You really should, Nier takes some risks and dones a lot of things very well imo. Yeah, just... don't mention the DA2 boards to me right now.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah...maybe I haven't found any but I'd love it if there was a longer hair mod sort of how Ximena draws
Morrigan with long hair. The problem with most of the longer hair mods is that they too often look really weird IMO when the hair gets to about shoulder length as its so rigid.
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Yeah, I love how ximena lets Morri's hair down for errr, certain scenes
In-game though I prefer to leave the companions as they are.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Don't know- weknow Flemeth can change human form, I'm wondering if maybe she is limited to the forms of those past daughters she has stolen in the past. So maybe she sort of eats their souls or something and that allows her to take that shape?
Instead of how Morrigan says a shapeshifter has to study a soul to copy its physical form, maybe Flemeth simply eats or consumes the soul and it merges with her super abomination form and thats what gives her power?
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that would be interesting. So instead of using her daughters to extend her life, she consumes them, and adds another human form to her collection.
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Hmmm... wasn't there something on this exact issue in-game, some story or legend that Flemeth was hunting her daughters or something (can't remember/place it right now) or am I thinking of something else?
[quote]GardenSnake wrote...
I see some sigs with Gaider quotes about Morrigan being relevant in the future, but that's what I don't get. Was all of this planned? I mean DA2 and everything. Did they sit down however many years ago they started making Origins and thought of a long term plan. Or are they making this up as they go? Because if they are, well lets just say that continuity issues are the least of my worries.
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We can't say for sure really, I'm just hoping Morrigan's story will be both relevant to DA and the warden who survived.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
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Flemeth:What has Morrigan told you, hmm? What little plan has she hatched this time? (VO note: she doesn't really want to know, but she's intrigued)
Warden: She knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan.
Flemeth: That she does. The question is, do you? (VO note: She knows very well that Morrigan has lied to the player.)
This one is interesting- is implying that Morrigan lied to the PC about Flemeth stealing bodies or that Morrigan is simply lying about her true purpose of being with the Warden- the DR?
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Yeah, that's a real puzzler, even more so in the context of one of the restored scenes where Morrigan seems sincere in her fear of Flemeth's bodysnatching.
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Morrigan: "And since you will not help me, you force me to act again. I must leave you now and... deal with Flemeth myself."
VO: icy -- the pause at the end is because she really doesn't look forward to this
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Maybe she knows or has some inkling of what is to come, and seeks to gain an advtantage/headstart over her mother, taking her out of the picture at least temporarilly? Of course, by WH, Morri seems even more daunted by whatever being she has to face in Flemeth... All paths seem to lead to her wanting to protect herself from Flemeth through power... 'tis another question that needs answering, is all.
I think the problem is like with Morrigan, too many people take everything at face value and don't want to delve any deeper. With Morrigan/Warden DR scenario there's a bunch of ways that could go and where the lies/truths begin and end still isn't clear, I'd like these topics to be explored further. As would many others, I'm sure.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
So yeah, it seems like Flemeth doesn't really care if you kill her or Morrigan takes her grimoire. Again, it almost seems like you're just playing into Flemeth's plans no matter what you do. But then of course you have that last line and the VO notes which implies Flemeth still has plans of some sort for Morrigan- she isn't going to just totally forget about her.
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Yeah, that's the impression I get, and it extends beyond just Morrigan's quest as well, that's why I brought up the revival/Flemeth issue, maybe a US warden isn't quite as free from Flemeth's snare as one would assume, I find it hard to believe she'd leave such a possibility to chance. I'll talk more about that later. Also true with the Morrigan observation, there's some implied inevitability there on Flemeth's part so it'll be interesting to see how things pan out when it comes to a head.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
The other thing that just occurred to me is how Flemeth keeps referring to song and dance in that conversation- stuff like having you dance to Morrigan's tune and all that. Probably nothing, but with the speculation that Flemeth is somehow tied to the Old Gods, it just reminded me of the Call of the Old Gods and how its referred to as a beautiful song. Some connection there? Just some more speculation fodder.
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Oh I'd say there's more than likely something there. I think some would like to downplay just how great of a role Morrigan and Flemeth potentially play in DA, it could be an arc that runs for a while, or it could span a great many games. It intrigues me far more than some of the arguments I've seen for ditching the warden at the very least.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Absolutely, Terra. If handled well, I think it would be very neat to have the Warden almost take amore advisory role with Morrigan being more of the central figure as her plot comes into focus. So it would be very interesting to have the Warden be beside her possibly affecting whether she maybe lets power get to her head or whether she is able to balance that desire. Basically, how you've treated Morrigan may result in her being your greatest enemy and a threat not unlike a Flemeth 2.0 possibly or maybe she becomes your greatest ally and more of a Savior figure.
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I concur, after WH, a mirror warden would likely be in a largely supporting role, (though that could alter depending on what exactly this change is and how it relates to GWs) which is how you could get away with his inclusion as a secondary protagonist or something similar should BioWare want to go that route. I'll put faith in the fact that there are flags attached to those WH choices they'll be used for something beyond a codex footnote and hope for the best. I'm really not certain how exactly Morrigan's return would be handled tbh, as a party member, a Flemeth style archetype, or something else... lots of possibilities and pitfalls. I think likewise with regards to Morrigan's future as a good/evil entity and it's definitely something that needs to be explored in the future.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Exactly- obviously not every choice will have big/huge consequences. But stuff like the DR should be one of those BIG things that may drastically alter how a future game plays out- for those that did it and those that turned it down.
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Oh I completely agree, but I've got a tirade on that front that I'm saving till later in the post...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I'm really hoping we have a Grey Warden companion in DA2- again, like Ariane mentioning Morrigan's ring, it would be awesome if a Warden companion in DA2 maybe mentions tales of how the Hero of Ferelden disappeared with that Witch of the Wilds. Or just being able to see a different side to the Wardens- maybe an Anderfels Warden or a Warden thats off investigating the disappearance of the Hero of Ferelden post Awakening. Little things like that can take a game from average to memorable.
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A mirror world ending specific reference of any kind would be awesome, as you know I'm a fan of the whole setup with the warden potentially "going rogue" somewhat, lots of possibilities there. It'd be interesting to have a GW companion. especially so if it could be tied in with the latter.
If by post-Awakening you mean the epilogue slide disappearance, I'm still thinking that ties in with WH and the change, so that'd presumably be toward the very end of DA2... The two could be separate, but Morri warns the GWs as a whole to be wary and then all of our wardens vanish at some point in the future... So, I'm not sure that'll be covered in DA2. I shall certainly be on the lookout for any Morri/Warden references though.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Right- its just goofy that you need to "guess" what your own response should be if its supposed to be a first person narrative. I should be confident in what my PC is saying- I should only be guessing as to how the NPC responds, not my PC. As for Deus Ex- ha- thats another game coming out early next year (Feb. 28th)- but the paraphrase system there at least mitigates the guessing if you want by showing the full text on the bottom of the screen. Here is an article on Deus Ex that talks about the dialogue system.
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Totally agree, it's ridiculous to have such an implementation, but I'm sure it's done to protect us from all that text, god forbid I have to read something in an RPG. As for Deus Ex - yeah, such a simple change to display the full text response and you've alleviated half the problem. Still, I suppose we do get some pretty icons, yay for innovation...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah....like I said in that thread, I'll eat my hat if they ever go back to a silent PC in the near future. And like I said, I have nothing againts the voiced PC in some games, but when its forced into every game along with the dialogue wheel, you can say that the ME wheel is different than DA2's, but you're really splitting hairs there. They didn't need to keep the exact format of the list necessarily, but I'd have liked to have seen them innovate with the silent PC rather than ditch it altogether.
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Precisely, we only take issue with it when we see BioWare "fixing" what clearly isn't broken by borrowing elements for their other games. Everything does not have to conform to one set standard, you stand apart from the crowd and develop distinctive IPs by making something different not consolidating everything into a series of generic clones.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Its like another instance of BioWare making changes and trying to fix things with a sledgehammer rather than a scalpel. Funny enough, here is an interview with one of the devs working on the new Deus Ex and he is specifically asked about maintaining complexity in the game:
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IGN: I keep thinking back to Bioware, and how with Dragon Age and Mass Effect they're gradually stripping away the less intuitive elements.
JJB: Yeah... I'm not gonna tell you what I really think of them doing that. But there's always a way to make something rather complicated work well. Our game director is a pragmatic, no-bull**** kind of guy and I'm really lucky to be working with him... one of his main skills is to ask what the reason is for something, and then make it usable and understandable.
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Oh totally, we're not alone in noting that BioWare is forcing the jigsaw pieces to fit, and hurriedly sawing off the edges to facilitate it. I suppose one benefit is you get more than 6 choices, now if we could only see the blasted text we might be getting somewhere.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
But thats my impression of all the exaggerated portions amount to- just fast paced hack and slash over the top gory combat. Meh. I don't think they really amount to anything storywise, which makes their inclusion kind of baffling. The game is short enough and yet you're basically using a potentially innovative device to just pad some combat time? And well, yeah, the combat just looks silly- take gymnast Rogue Hawke for example.[edit: took down the link in interest of not getting this thread locked- its easy enough to find on youtube or just PM me for the link)
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I snagged the vid earlier today, I usually save a local copy whenever they surface on youtube for inspection later
Yeah, it's odd because I'm assuming they're trying to push the streamlined combat for the fabled console audience's benefit, yet this business with leaked footage getting pulled every other day and no official gameplay vids available is bizarre tbh. Surely if you've allowed people to play an early build you have enough confidence in at least that section of the game to show something to the public at large.
Yeah, if that's all the exaggerated narrative amounts to then its merely a fancy name for a gaudy game mechanic imo, I'll be extremely underwhelmed if it's usage doesn't extend past that obvious implementation.
Also, this new playable characer... why exactly does he/she have "missions." Surely in the world of DA one would refer to them as "quests"... Are we to have a jarring "Mission Complete!" screen ala Mass Effect 2 every time we finish a quest?
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, its sad as I too though the ability to click on a companion and strike up a conversation anywhere was a major step forward from previous BioWare games. Again, a better solution would have been to let you click and start conversations anywhere but perhaps have the more meaningful ones better paced out. It definitely is jarring though when you click on a companion like in Awakening and they simply give yousome generic bark back.
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Yeah, I forgot about spacing out the conversations. I assume that will apply to some extent by way of the framed narrative timeskip approach, thereby avoiding the problem with exhausting all dialogue options too quickly. A generic bark or "appropriate comment" for me is a fairly unintuitive approach, especially as it will be contrasted in a less than favourable light by homebase dialogue and interaction.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Again, I think it largely is due to the voiced PC and wanting everything to be cinematic. You're sacrifing freedom to have the devs hand hold you by making it such that the only conversations you have will have the camera going all over to ensure its "cinematic" enough. Gaider even mentioned in that thread they wanted to avoid the "Talking HEad Syndrome" of DAO- which I think is pretty stupid really- you generally look at someone when you talk to them no? I f the dialogue and VO is good thats plenty to keep me interested in the conversation- I don't need to be distracted by silly camera movements that end up with the camera zoomed in on Miranda's butt like in ME2. Bad cinematics can ruin a conversation just as much as bad dialogue or VO.
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Absolutely, so long as we can have these epic awesome moments of Hawke pacing around, slamming his fist into a nearby table whilst the dynamic camera focuses on "the important things" I'm sure everything will be fine. Well, you've hit the nail on the head Brock, now we've successfully elimated text and no-voiceover from the problematic equation that is the silent PC, the next problem is these conversations are just too darn lengthy, we need some cinematic awesomeness in there so we don't get bored.
As you say though Brock, I truly relish Origins as you could truly immerse yourself solely in conversation for significant lengths of time, especially whilst in camp. Make things too "cinematic" and you run the risk of detracting from what is supposed to be the focus- the dialogue itself. It's distracting if nothing else.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah- its a sad state of affairs for most single player games. NOt to go too far off topic, but within EA just take Dead Space 2. I'm not so sure they quite get why the first was fairly well received- its not because it was action packed, its because it was a horror game. And yet with DS2, you just see how they're "amping up" the action, but don't worry- they're keeping what people loved from the first Dead Space. Hmmm.. sound familiar? Then you have this interview at Gamasutra on how EA is expanding the Visceral label into all action games, forcing multiplayer into every title. Ugh... I just increasingly wish that games would just sell the single player and multiplayer seperately. I like some multiplayer centric games like L4D or the old Battlefield games, but most of the time I play for the single player and there is no way to justify a $50 or $60 purchase on a days worth of game.And it seems you're seeing that mentality seep into RPGs now too.
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What can I say, really? It wouldn't be the first instance where they completely miss what made the first outing special. DeadSpace struck a perfect balance, especially on Hard mode - death was always just around the next corner, ammo was scarce, you could feel the tension in the air. You don't need an full frontal onslaught every five minutes in a horror title, it works against the conservation aspect that used to be integral to the genre. As for multiplayer, yeah I'll just say I hope I don't see it in DA - ever. We've already got to knuckle under with these changes, the prospect of something like meaningful conversations or even a romance whilst accompanied by the average Xbox LIVE denizen - no thanks. Everything has its place and there's no need for multiplayer in every game.
And I think EA trying to "label" everything is part of the problem, a game cannot stand on its own because apparently it must conform to some predefined set of misguided criteria. Ugh... I do want a Mirror's Edge sequel though, on a totally random note.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I just feel like the framed narrative is going to end up forcing things along too much, like Awakening did. I mean, with ME2 I played that through about 3 or 4 times in the first 2 months I had it. Haven't touched it since- because I know I've done everything there is outside of the DLCs. With Origins, I've been going slowly through again and just found out about those Slim Couldry quests- this is probably my 5th or 6th time through and I'm still finding little things.
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Well, again we can only go off what we've heard and most of what we've heard is about combat. I'm wondering how a shorter game will feel "more epic" and the implementation of timeskips can be haphazard in my experience. Like with ME2, the world is so... structured that there is an element of railroading the player about the environment. It's all business and you just head from A to B more or less, rinse and repeat.
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Yeah- that act has gotten really old, from both Flemeth and in WItch Hunt with Morrigan's non answers- not due to any story reason that we know of but mostly because the writers said so.
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Yeah, closure is for suckers apparently, as I suppose, are answers.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Great...I can just picture it now- Warden steps through portal walks along side Morrigan, sees OGB , then -BOOM- instagibbed, Unreal Tournament style. *Cue Gaider's evil laughing*
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Heh, you read my mind Brock. Though with what I've witnessed on that "Am I the only one who's disappointed" thread, I think the one's who are out to screw us over are our fellow "fans" rather than the devs, I'll elaborate more on that shortly...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Exactly, Terra. Presumably BioWare won't be overhauling the combat in every DA game, so eventually doing the whole "Start from humble beginnings and work your way to Champion!" deal gets tired.
If DA3 is about Morrigan/Flemeth's plans hitting along with the change and the world at war, I'd very much prefer playing as the Warden or Hawke- higher level guys that have had some role in getting the world to that point, rather than some new scrub yet again. And if the world is going to hell in a handbasket in DA3, presumably you'd be facing stronger foes, so what better chance to showcase the higher levels. If there is one thing the new skill system should allow its more flexibility in that sense so you don't end up like Awkening with too many abilities too soon, since you can augment specifc abilities this time. I'd orefer it if we stop leveling up at like level 15 or so in DA2- kind of ike BG1, it gives you more chance for growth in the future.
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Yep, that is exactly my contention, there's little to distinguish the series from any other unrelated series of sequels and it becomes highly illogical for a "peasant" to be tackling problems of Flemeth's magnitude (who presumably won't be playing around anymore). I'd be in complete support of such an approach with regard to your comment on the skill system, by Awakening it was basically hit 0-9 to win. But that's a game design issue that needs to be addressed, the ability augmenting though whilst potentially allowing for deeper customisation could turn out to be a ME2 style affair. And yeah, a level cap is fine, provided the character in question will return in the future.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I've thought of that too- the Warden could have very well been dead and Flemeth did something to bring them back but in the process did something which furthered her aims by resurrecting them? My Warden looked mighty dead with an arrow in the face, so that must have been some healing Flemeth employed. With you're dealing with Flemeth, Old Gods and all that, yes, I'd say the conventional rules can be significantly bended or broken perhaps.
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Precisely Brock, plots within plots, that is the very definition of Flemeth as I see it. Will people complain if such reasoning was used to bring the warden back, probably. Did she really take some altruistic action in saving the wardens in order to quell the Blight... I think sufficient doubt has been cast on that theory. Did she then decide to place all her eggs in one basket and gamble on the success of Morrigan, that seems a stretch to me as well considering VO notes indicate Flemeth suspects that Morrigan may turn on her or strike out on her own in the future. As I see it, the Flemeth/Morri arc is the current overarching plot (at least for the moment) and by being saved by Flemeth, the warden is involved in that web. You'd have to be blind to the importance of this arc considering Gaider's comments to Brock and Hawke's immediate entanglement with Flemeth in DA2.
Ok, rant time now because this week is apparently anti-Morrigan and anti-Morrifan week and our outrageous desires for closure in a future title must be quelled by all means necessary. I've separated my rant-specific stuff here, along with the pertinent quotes.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yup- being stuck with drunkard Oghren drove my Cousland to go all angsty nd burn Amaranthine and kill the Architect. If anything bad comes of that, he blames Oghren.
But yeah, you had the personal side of things with my Warden wanting to go with Morrigan and meet his son and help them out, but also the aspect that Flemeth is a threat to all Thedas and Morrigan is seemingly the key to opposing her or at least finding out more about Flemeth.
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Yeah, I've seen some comments about how bringing the warden back would harm the "fantasy ending" an individual has cooked up in their head post-epilogue slide. Now, discounting the fact that the warden disappearing in the Awakening slide means that probably gets shattered anyway, I'll just share my thoughts on the Morrigan romance and Awakening and go into a bit more detail as to why LI and RPing reasons aren't necessarilly automatically ruined if the warden returns and why the aforementioned shouldn't be used as excuses to keep the warden out of DA3:
My warden wanted to search for Morrigan immediately after DA:O, instead he was ordered to deal with events in Amaranthine, the silent PC setup allowed me to work with that whilst retaining that mindset; he certainly wasn't happy to be there but the Morrigan romance or my desire to follow her wasn't intrinsically preventing Awakening from taking place. Along the same lines you could receive letters from LI's or have a special scene with Alistair if he was your LI. Being set on a certain path doesn't have to destroy the roleplaying reasons you've developed in your mind, while Awakening's implementation was sloppy (primarilly through budget) this still holds true. My warden's relationship and desire to follow Morrigan wasn't harmed by Awakening, delayed slightly perhaps, but tbh that added something to the Awakening experience, it added an impetus to the experience, without the prospect of following her on the horizon, my warden's future was looking to be a decidely bleak picture. Similarly, if the warden were to return in the future, as demonstrated here, that doesn't mean it invalidates everything that came before it and craps over whatever motivation your player character has. If you've created an unsupportable dream fantasy for your warden ignoring both the Origins and Awakening slides that suggest it's not over yet then you've only yourself to blame.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Right- the US is afairly one way street and an end to your story, while you probably take the DR to survive and face the consequences of such an action, not to just be written off and effectively treated like the US Wardens.
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To be honest Brock, it's starting to **** me off with the constant warring between "fans" whenever the subject of the warden returning or the DR actually meaning something is broached on the DA2 board. To the point where I could really rage about how certain posters claim to know the mind of the devs and assert that the warden/morrigan/flemeth/ogb could never feature in any significant way, yet the US (and whatever convoluted reasoning an individual has thought up for their non-involvement in the writer-dictated plot) "must", naturally, be enforced on pain of death (pun intended). Ugh... I was very close to making a post on the matter on the "disappointed" thread on the DA2 boards, but any logical reasoning based on in-game material posted there is apparently a non-argument, so there you have it. I know we engage in some pessimism here but some people seem to have made it their personal mission to sour any threads that would like a conclusion to this arc, adopting a stance that they will win out through sheer obstinance.
There's just such a total lack of mutual respect for other peoples choices on the part of the players, coupled with the notion that (if certain posters are to be believed) BioWare "couldn't possibly include" the warden/Morrigan/OGB in the same plotline in DA3. As you say, it seems everything "must" be watered down to the extent that you might as well do the US anyway because clearly expecting some kind of follow up to the DR that involves your PC is a cardinal sin. Yeah, the "fanbase" over there just plain annoys me. Do some people want to endorse the "easy way out" approach for the DA series. I suppose that mindset will prevail until it affects some aspect of the plot that they are invested in. We're not demanding that BioWare resurrect all US wardens, or that all wardens should follow Morrigan, we're just stating that evidence is there in-game that could point towards all wardens getting involved in the future. Much like how Shepard joins Cerberus in ME2, your personal extended fantasy of travelling Thedas post-Blight (or w/e floats your boat) doesn't take precedence over the overarching plot. It's self evident that at a bare minimum a romancing warden should at least be present alongside Morrigan based on the WH ending, that desire is supportable via an in-game flag but that's not what I want to discuss here.
With some of them it's like they're literally skipping from foot to foot in glee, chuckling because they got "their" ending, which is naturally far more important than anyone else's and to cap it off, they'd deny the DR and the surviving warden any meaning by virtue of it being "difficult to implement" or negating the US (which it doesn't) or not fitting with a fantasy they have concocted in their mind about how their warden is now a farmer (or something equally unquantifiable in game) and would choose not to involve himself/herself. Words fail me tbh, I was always of the school of thought the devs dictated where the story went and you were given the flexibility to roleplay within reasonable bounds. We're in the unfortunate situation where BW has Morrigan fans over a barrel with the promise that she'll return in the future. Thus, we can't cook up our fantasies of skipping through fields of daisies with her like other players can with their respective LIs. We have an investment in her plot and want some meaningful payoff that features the player character in some way, I fail to see what's so insidious about this that it apparently "cannot be done" in spite of the skeleton framework that's already starting to take shape. If you dare to suggest that perhaps the Awakening epilogue or WH foreshadows something for the living warden, why you're just destroying the hopes and dreams of a whole generation apparently.
The sheer crap being touted there is astounding, even when the devs themselves have been very careful not to confirm anything on the matter except for, oh yes, that the Morrigan/Flemeth/OGB/Warden is hopefully building towards something. So despite the lead writer saying that, fellow players would still seek to deny us closure. Maddening, you're not even afforded the chance to discuss the potential future for such a plot thread anymore...
On the one hand no-canon is used to defend their US choice or support why their surviving warden wouldn't follow Morrigan or care for any conceivable issue the writers could devise to bring the warden back into play (reasons which quickly extend into completely unsupportable territory), yet apparently this affords a Morrigan fan no such luxury, and the inclusion of the warden in DA3 would utterly destroy their game, despite the apparent setup and hints from the devs. The surviving warden apparently cannot have any place in a future plotline, furthermore his/her final interactions with Morrigan should apparently be shoehorned into a DLC (again) and we know how well that went down last time - I'm sorry but you cannot relegate the DR warden to offscreen when the Morri arc reaches it's apex, and that's going to occur during the main campaign, not in a DLC. As for the notion that by selectively "skipping" Awakening/WH you can bypass the plotlines and expect no default choice to be assumed - what kind of approach to storytelling would that be? Is this some branch off from the "pix or it didn't happen" internet mentality? I fail to see the logic in that I'm afraid, such an approach would just render everything post-origins utterly pointless, bringing us once again in line with a US ending...
Take things like how WH can end; the foreshadowing of Flemeth & the change, the warning given to all wardens. It doesn't make sense to have these variables in play or deliver these points to the warden if the warden is never to appear again. If WH is the end of the warden, why bother to make a distinction between the player's choice at the end, there's simply no point in doing so unless BioWare do intend for it to matter as we move forwards. So yeah, people assume too much with the "BioWare can't do xyz because the world would end," attitude, bah.
In the context of Laidlaw's comments regarding Morrigan and Gaider's statement that both choices will be recognised and that we're building towards something (said within the context of Brock's mention of Morrigan/Flemeth/OGB/Warden) I think some individuals have a serious case of selective hearing and attempt to mask it behind some psuedo-highbrow reasoning of how the DR and its components cannot ever have a significant impact despite dev hints to the contrary.
Player rationale through roleplay to justify their actions is unfortunately unquantifiable in the game. A game will never be able to support the myriad reasoning for why an individual player would/would not choose a particular course of action and so it must become irrelevent by necessity of moving the plot forward. Such as our desire to follow Morrigan immediately after Origins - this isn't supported because of the existence of Awakening. It doesn't mean however that my roleplaying motivations are destroyed by being set on the course Awakening provides. What can be used however are the plot flags, that's what will be used to define the worldstate. Your personal fantasy of running a bakery with xyz in idyllic bliss after the epilogue didn't matter in Awakening and it certainly won't matter moving forwards, that flexibility is afforded to you outside of the gamespace but can be countermanded at the whim of the writers at any time, with the plot flags set in your gamestate providing a way for that character's story to blend into a new plot. To underline this for the final time, Awakening foreshadows an event for all living wardens that will likely utterly destroy your personal fantasy. (It doesn't seem to be the calling or Gaider would have likely stated that's what it was) The notion that the DR warden is permanently out of the picture because he/she settled down or you've dreamed up a new quest for him is flawed through in-game evidence and Gaider's comments on the issue.
And that's really my problem, over on the DA2 boards certain people seem to think that because on the face of it the US is a dead end the DR and a living warden should amount to nothing past an epilogue slide as well out of narrative convenience to BioWare, descending on any discussion threads like a pack of jackals. You can't take this approach and still tout a no-canon, choices matter front for your product (and to their credit, BioWare haven't stated that they're going to do this), it works both ways I'm afraid and one choice cannot inherently limit the other if this framework is to be successful. It's really not that complex to branch two ways to allow some variance, many games have done this and then had some common point of convergence. So, yeah, like I said to Brock above, the "fans" are causing the rift in my eyes. While me and Brock have talked about how maybe keeping the primary effects of a big choice within the "owning game" may be the way to go, the fact remains that Morrigan will remain a bone of contention until it's resolved and while things may be quiet now, if that plotline amounts to very little by way of the US possibly shackling the DR's potential then in my mind you've just disregarded a major choice and I think the Morrigan fans will suddenly become a hell of a lot more vocal come DA3 if that happens.
My point is, just because one warden's story was wrapped up nicely in an epic US moment or another is ruling Denerim doesn't mean that "the warden" can't play a role in another player's story as we move forwards. He/she doesn't have to be the central/sole protagonist to accomplish this. The notion of world states and game states exists to allow divergence within the no-canon setup, to reflect, build upon and develop unique stories. A bit more mutual respect from all parties towards each others choices without the assumption that BioWare couldn't possibly craft a story that respects all decisions would go a long way to avoiding the nonsensical arguments on the aforementioned thread. Personally, I think there have already been enough compromises regarding scenes involving Morrigan getting cut from the game (or reduced to a one size fits all) and I would hate for further examples of this to manifest in the future. It's all at the whims of the writers and not a few individuals trying to shout down any optimists for the future.
I hope you enjoyed that mini-rant on why I facepalm whenever I see a warden/DR-related topic on the DA2 boards and how some posters apparently have greater knowledge as to what is acheivable than the developers themselves. As you've mentioned Brock, if certain people had their way, the warden who did the DR will have about as much prospective functionality post DR as a corpse. And now I'm gonna stop ranting, perhaps this belongs in the DA2 thread that inspired it but then I may as well direct it at the nearest wall for all the good it'd do. I don't mean to tar all players with the same brush as we have some very level headed posters here on the boards but 'tis most frustrating of late.
/end rant
Now back to some more speculation:
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I doubt the Chantry is totally destroyed or anything but maybe its on the verge of collapse or simply has maybe lost its influence in areas where Flemeth and her Mage Army has been active? But you're right- Cassandra is likely trying to find practical info not just knowledge for the sake of knowledge.
[/quote]
I agree, I'm guessing Hawke's big decision will come when we reach those closing moments, and it will be a big one, maybe sealing the Chantry's fate/something to do with mages... Any potential meeting between those two is likely the point of no return though, DA2's DR essentially. It'll certainly divide the fanbase once again...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
So maybe that explains her whole High Dragon shifting too and maybe goes back to Flemeth perhaps being tied to the original Wardens- maybe she has the sould of Dumat in her abomination self too? Who knows...
[/quote]
Gaider knows, but he just won't tell us.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Oh, I think Origins was more criticized for its goofy Marilyn Manson marketing more than anything. Still, the game is coming out in less than 5 months and all we have are a handful of screenshots- yet they're fine with pushing preorders for the "signature edition" and all that just fine on a game no one has any "real" footage of.
[/quote]
It's being sold on the back of cinematic awesomesauce I guess? I would have thought it a logical priority to showcase the product you're attempting to sell before detailing a signature edition...
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
I've been rolling up all kinds of Wardens and running through origin and gender changes to see all the different kinds of reaction, and honestly, I've deleted all of them and stuck with Vann Cousland and Renard Amell my damn human warrior and mage. Both end up romancing Morrigan. Well I got it into my head to go back into old saves and make some different decisions so now I have "bizarro" versions of Vann and Renard running around. So far Vann married Anora and became King-consort, and wow was I really surprised at Morrigan's reaction. She really couldn't give a sh*t if Anora knew if Vann was unavailable but that line Morrigan gives "Things seem to have a way of working themselves out" was just so melancholy. I honestly felt bad by allying with Anora like that, inspite of it being purely political. Hell I even saved Loghain and damn if he isn't pretty good Father-in-Law.
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The concept of separate origins was nice, however once you got out of the "origin prologue" area the distinction between wardens was minimal. There could have been some merit in spending less time on the origins and more time polishing/finishing/including important scenes that ended up getting cut from the game *looks at Morrigan*. The Cousland is probably the best overall for me, simply because there's a decent amount of acknowledge and tie-in in the game - primarilly Arl Howe & Nathaniel in Awakening, the connection is much stronger with a Cousland. None of my wardens care enough about Ferelden or politics to want to be mired in that particular cesspit for longer than necessary, Anora/Alistair and co can sort that mess out however they see fit. Sitting about on a throne isn't doing much about the death sentence over my head either, whereas following a path of power alongside Morri could have its dividends.
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Bizzaro Renard will get his time to shine once Microsoft gets off its ass and pushes through the Witch Hunt fix so I can complete my entire original Renard's run. (Its a bad sign when the dog you spent time to save at Ostagar, who saved you some time by dropping food in your lover's underwear cache, and helped you slay the Archdemon, runs up to you and suddenly needs to be named again).
[/quote]
Ah, I believe my 360 wardens are currently stuck in the friend zone courtesy of everybodies favourite flag, the important ones have been reborn on the PC platform though so they can live on.
[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Okay so the premise is the Archdemon's tainted soul tries to jump into the non-empty Warden's tainted body which also contains a soul. The two souls can't occupy the same space to *poof* both souls are bye-bye. Since souls go to place "beyond the fade" and at the end of Witch Hunt that is exactly where Morrigan goes. Maybe thats exactly what she wants instead of giving her a child with the Soul of an Old God, an Ultimate Sacrifice Warden's Soul-Old God Soul hybrid is what she is after instead. Its happened 4 times already but this *just* happened so the hybrid-soul is "fresh" and simply needs to be brought back to the mortal realm. There is power in the Old God's soul but instead of being free of the taint, thanks to the Warden's soul, its rather resistant. Instead of being "The Archdemon" or "The Warden" its rather a neutral party now being neither beholden to the taint but nor free of it either. So while an Old God Child would be free of the taint the Hybrid would not. It'd ultimatly be what The Architect wanted.
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Seems feasible enough to me, that's what I was getting at with the Flemeth angle, a US warden could still unwittingly be playing into her hand, which becomes all the more believable as we note she has a penchant for "bumping into" important characters in Thedas. of course since a fair few people like to take everything at face value, bringing back the US warden even in this way would naturally be crapping all over their choice.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
pretty colors, no text? DA 2 should be your game then? Then again, the first screen are not that colorful...
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In order to become a Morrigan acolyte, there's a minimum word count that all your posts must meet, and a monthly essay has to be submitted to retain the title. If you want to see some really lengthy posts then imagine a scenario why the Morrigan arc was concluded in a less than satisfactory manner - then you'd see some truly lengthy material.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
None i know of, and i have the impression it will still take a while before we get some real in-game footage, let alonbe some real news. The website of DA 2 is indeed quiet. Does anyone rmember when the old DAO website started to reveal companions? DA 2 release is not that far away anymore. And while all the devs are complaining people are biased cause the interpret the few informations they have, no information is released. Kinda schizophrenic...
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what I want to know is how long is DA2 going to be in active QA. I can picture the "What comes my friend?" moments already.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
It would be cool if in DA 3, the Warden is some kind of Duncan, a legendary warrior recruiting the new hero, guiding him and get him on his way. Perhaps without dying soon, and having a beautiful raven-haired witch by his side, but i guess you know what i mean
[/quote]
And there you go, yet another possible way to involve the warden in Morrigan's story where appropriate without the mass sacrilege Morrigan fans apparently wish to inflict on the DA community.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
I know it sounds like blasphemy, but i am looking forward to progressing the DA story without needing to worry what they will do to her now. Will she even be present,. If not, i am disappointed. If yes, damn, what do we have to endure now? Playing a Dragon Age game setting up her grand story while no need to worry if anything bad could happen to her or the Warden, sounds not that bad...
[/quote]
The consensus (based on Gaider's no Claudia VO comment and Laidlaw saying DA2 is setup for future plotlines, including Morri's) is that she won't be present. I believe Laidlaw told Brock however that she would definitely be referenced (or at least implied it). Like we've said before, WH for the romancing warden and friendly wardens is a perfectly serviceable conclusion for now. It's DA3 where the possibilities and our fears now lie. And yeah, if certain people would stop belittling the DR and the potential importance of the warden, we'd be fairly happy to refocus on DA2 for now.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
For some strange reasons, i loved to talked to them every where in Origins, and i greatly missed it in Awakening, but it didn't bother me in Mass Effect that you could not do it.
I hope they rethink that. It doesn't even have to be much. They could expand on the Awakening concept. Click on them, talk to them, and let them say something about the environment, the dungeons, the fights or whatever fits the situation. A few lines of dialogue that are appropriate there. As you can ask Leliana what she knows about the area you're in.
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Ironically, my friends major complaint with ME2's companions was the lack of party banter whilst out and about, DA:O made the ME crews interactions look hollow by comparison. And yeah, I completely agree, its just an oversimplification that reduces your companions to a push button mechanic tbh.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
In the head? If i remember correctly, the Warden was hit in the right shoulder, and the one getting hit in the head some anonymous guard, who, well, was bound to die anyway.
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Can't remember tbh, could still have been maimed after passing out however, all I'm saying is maybe there's something there, it was some time before you awoke after all...
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
According to BW, it was not your dog, but a dog, since they were unable to import your dog and his name. For whatever reason...
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Yeah, there's a whole lot of stuff that BioWare apparently can't import... for varying reasons.
[quote]MoSa09 wrote...
lore-wise, that is true. But from a technical point of view, they were not able to import him. So he is just a dog you can give the same name as the one you hand, and who will be given a codex entry to enforce this illusion of having back your old dog again. But i am probably splitting hairs here.
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Considering the major bug that slipped through the net, Dog got off pretty lightly, at least his sexual exploits were recognised in the DLC.
Modifié par Terra_Ex, 16 octobre 2010 - 04:07 .
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