16179 réponses à ce sujet

[MelRedux]

*runs away giggling*

[KnightofPhoenix]

I call upon Morrigan to cast away this ugliness!



aaaah

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seeing how the US ending effectively got scrapped, Bioware might not even be sure it wants / or is capable of expanding upon the Morrigan sub-plot. It would be horrible if they don't, but we do not know that yet. They explicitly said Dragon Age will not be a trilogy like Mass Effect, in other words there probably will not be one overarching storyline.

So even if they have a vague idea of where it might go, they might know if they can actually deal with it. Gaider's comments make me pessimistic to say the least.

Now there is no doubt that the Dark Ritual (The Dark Promise as the achievement goes) has the most potential (definately much more so than the US ending). But we are not sure if they will deal with it. Let alone let our PC face thew consequences like it should be. 

I'll be curious what direction Bioware takes DA- I know they've said ad nauseum that Dragon Age is a "franchise" but what does that mean for the games? Obviously they want to reach out with books and all of that sort of thing but if DA being a "franchise" means they are only going to do one shot, standalone stories for each "sequel," my interest in DA would fade quickly. Thats not to say Bioware couldn't make some fantastic stories that way, but it would just harken back to Neverwinter Nights and that doesn't interest me that much.

The Warden's story doesn't need to be a trilogy necessarily, but if they are going to let us continue to play as the Warden, like in Awakening, then there should be a measure of significant continuity. Sure Awakening has some returning characters, but kind of like how Liara acts cold and indifferent in ME2, most of the cameos in Awakening seemed tacked on and inconsequential. If I'm going to import or continue my Warden, I want meaningful continuity otherwise whats the point?

It very well may be the case that the whole Dark Ritual was tacked on at the end- but I don't know... It seems like all throughout the game and especially through the party banter, Morrigan is built up to have these subversive or dastardly designs on the PC and so the DR and her proposal there kind of fits in. I suspect that maybe what ended up happening was hard cuts had to be made which while they worked to get the game out of the door, ended up kind of gimping the storyline, but only the folks at Bioware know for sure.

In any event, I don't think future DA games need to be part of a trilogy or anything necessarily, but it would be nice to have some closure with the Warden and Morrigan storyline before moving on to some new Epic Hero of Thedas. My dream scenario would be that maybe Bioware comes out with one more ex-pack before DA2 that returns some of the Origins companions and foreshadows or ties into the events of DA2. Then have DA2 where we can hopefully reunite with Morrigan and resolve her plot or at least most of it. Just give the Warden's story some closure, for better or worse ( and knowing Gaider it would probably be for the worse )

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Definately agree with this. The Morrigan sub-plot can only have proper closure if it's the PC who deals with it. Even if it has to be...gulp killing her 

My ideal scenario with any (hopeful!) reunion with Morrigan would maybe involve having to side with her or against her in her big mysterious plan. You figure an Old God is potentially involved so the Wardens would be rather interested in how Old God Baby was handled. Could make for some interesting player choices...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The thing is, and I am sure this has been discussed to death a hundred times, they probably will have to canonise it in order to fully and properly deal with it. A small side-quest won't cut it.
And that brings a lot of complications. So Bioware might just take the easy route and decide to ignore the DR completely. Which brings me back to the first point.   

Yea I got the feeling it was a new thing they added. That's why I am not sure they even know how they would continue it.

I wonder if by giving the players so many choices in DAO, Bioware hasn't sort of painted themselves into a corner with respect to continuing on as the Warden. If (and thats a big if) we can play as the Warden again in DA2, I wouldn't be surprised (I'd rather bet on it) that it takes place outside of Ferelden- that way the nitty gritty decisions from Origins don't come into play. But as far as certain characters being alive or dead, yeah they likely would have some canon I'd imagine.

Reading the Morrigan epilogue in Orgins though gives me a little hope that the DR won't be totally ignored. The whole " One cannot help but wonder however: What became of the child? What were Morrigan's plans? These questions must remain a mystery...for now" gives me hope that it will be resolved at least. Of course, resolution could mean that DA2 takes place 60 years in the future and MOrrigan's story is told in a codex entry, but well I hope thats just me being pessimistic.

Just looking around the internet and chatting with friends that have played Origins, almost always the first thing that comes up in regard to a possible sequel is Morrigan and the Old God Baby. Some people want to kill Morrigan the first chance they'd re-unite with her while others would likely want their PC to have steamy witch sex with her upon reuniting. The fact that there is that level of divergence in opinion on Morrigan yet people feel strongly about her either way is a great thing for Bioware and IMO, they would be absolute knuckle-heads to to just pass up on such a reunion which could be rife with drama and dare I say it... be "emotionally engaging!"

[Barbarossa2010]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But from her perspective, she did try to save your life and that was the only guaranteed option. It was a very Morrigan thing to do to leave after your Warden refused to be saved (from her perspective). 
Like I said before, imo, any outright expression of love during the DR would have been interpretted as BS by my Warden. 

Perhaps she could have said that she loved your Warden just before leaving? Possible, but I don't imagine Morrigan doing that. It would seem as if she is begging or wants to be pitied. And Morrigan would never want this.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I'll certainly agree that her character is definitely interesting.  Here we are after 6 months still chatting it up.  You are just much more satisfied (or accepting?) of the outcome than I.

Satisifed that it turned tragically, yes. The fact the epilogue had me in tears is satisfying, as in the romance plot, despite some flaws, was handled extremily well imo (I never had a story, least iof all a romance, bring me on the verge of depression).

Accepting? I do not know yet, that will depend entirely on how Bioware will deal with it.

Exactly.  The responsibility is always on the Warden.  Morrigan never is forced (and you certainly have no say in the matter; you can't kill her; you can't slap her when she advocates enslaving elves; hell, even when you send her away she comes back) to accept responsibility for anything.  It is the Warden who must adapt, never Morrigan.  As it is, her "love" confession only comes after she gets what she wants (what, two or three days after the Ritual?).

Ah yes, tragedy.  Certainly a genre I have little love for.  Imbibed way too deep from the Shakespearean well in a Jesuit school.  Goes a long way in explaining our differing interpretations. I can certainly understand why others might have a differing opinion/interpretation than I from that perspective. 

And to think that DA:O was my first role player!  I am only glad that I found Mass Effect. Much closer in meeting my expectations in a long video game.  I was much more comfortable in Shepard's skin than the Grey Warden Barbarossa's (ironic, huh?), but I do wish that the role playing elements were a little more serious.  But I guess you can't have everything.

And yes, definitely an emotional epilogue (although I don't know if" sorrow and regret" were what my Warden was supposed to have or not).

Edit: for format.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 22 avril 2010 - 01:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Brockolloly (do you mind if I call you Brolly BTW )
I agree on all your points.
And yea my ideal scenario would be to give us the choice to either side with or against Morrigan, once her plan is made clear. But even if one stands against her, the romance must still be delt with. Would make it a lot more tragic  

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
 As it is, her "love" confession only comes after she gets what she wants (what, two or three days after the Ritual?).

Which is why I think it's sincere. If she was lying, she would have expressed love before and used that to her advantage.
But it really depends on interpretation. The way I understand Morrigan as a character leads me to believe that her love is sincere. Of course that love is not devoid of self interest and it could be seen that part of her love is the fact that your Warden does give her what she wants (I personally do not think love is completely sefless either, so I would have a similar conception of love).

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
And to think that DA:O was my first role player!  I am only glad that I found Mass Effect. Much closer in meeting my expectations in a long video game.  I was much more comfortable in Shepard's skin than the Grey Warden Barbarossa's (ironic, huh?), but I do wish that the role playing elements were a little more serious.  But I guess you can't have everything.

Mass Effect is a great game and it does have a somewhat more epic edge to it. However, and that is not to degrade ME, I felt DA to be much more emotionally engaging and meaningful, in addition to being more complex. But I enjoy both tremendously for their respective strengths.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 avril 2010 - 01:13 .

[Barbarossa2010]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Brockolloly (do you mind if I call you Brolly BTW )
I agree on all your points.
And yea my ideal scenario would be to give us the choice to either side with or against Morrigan, once her plan is made clear. But even if one stands against her, the romance must still be delt with. Would make it a lot more tragic  

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
 As it is, her "love" confession only comes after she gets what she wants (what, two or three days after the Ritual?).

Which is why I think it's sincere. If she was lying, she would have expressed love before and used that to her advantage.
But it really depends on interpretation. The way I understand Morrigan as a character leads me to believe that her love is sincere. Of course that love is not devoid of self interest and it could be seen that part of her love is the fact that your Warden does give her what she wants (I personally do not think love is completely sefless either, so I would have a similar conception of love).

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
And to think that DA:O was my first role player!  I am only glad that I found Mass Effect. Much closer in meeting my expectations in a long video game.  I was much more comfortable in Shepard's skin than the Grey Warden Barbarossa's (ironic, huh?), but I do wish that the role playing elements were a little more serious.  But I guess you can't have everything.

Mass Effect is a great game and it does have a somewhat more epic edge to it. However, and that is not to degrade ME, I felt DA to be much more emotionally engaging and meaningful, in addition to being more complex. But I enjoy both tremendously for their respective strengths.

I understand your perspective to be sure.  She and I are not alike.  As you well know, however, that does not dissuade "love."

Agree that ME is less emotionally engaging, well..other than that I'm the savior of the universe complex I now have, but the epic edge more than compensates.  We see that the same for sure.

[Brockololly]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Ah yes, tragedy.  Certainly a genre I have little love for.  Imbibed way too deep from the Shakespearean well in a Jesuit school.  Goes a long way in explaining our differing interpretations. I can certainly understand why others might have a differing opinion/interpretation than I from that perspective. 

And to think that DA:O was my first role player!  I am only glad that I found Mass Effect. Much closer in meeting my expectations in a long video game.  I was much more comfortable in Shepard's skin than the Grey Warden Barbarossa's (ironic, huh?), but I do wish that the role playing elements were a little more serious.  But I guess you can't have everything.

Tragedy is all well and good and surely a way to get someone's emotions into a story, but I think having tragedy in an RPG driven by player choice needs to  make sure that the tragedy itself is also driven by player choice, not just some static plot element. I don't know if I'd say Morrigan's romance is full on tragedy- bittersweet, heart breaking sure.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
@ Brockolloly (do you mind if I call you Brolly BTW )

By all means!

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I agree on all your points. And yea my ideal scenario would be to give us the choice to either side with or against Morrigan, once her plan is made clear. But even if one stands against her, the romance must still be delt with. Would make it a lot more tragic  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png

That would be the "good" kind of tragedy though, I'd say- the kind that puts you between a rock and a hard place. Do you choose your lover and forsake your blood-bound duty as a Grey Warden or do you betray your love? In either case though the choice would be up to the player, not some preordained choice by the writers wielding their Plot Hammer.

I know Bioware has mentioned a zillion times how DA is not generic Tolkien-esque High Fantasy but that its "Dark Heroic Fantasy" but has anyone here read "Children of Hurin" by Tolkien? Man, you want to talk about a downer- you think the ending for Origins is depressing, Children of Hurin just busts out some old school Greek tragedy. Really good book if you like Tolkien, but goes to show that Tolkien could do the whole "dark fantasy" thing pretty good too. I really hope there isn't anything as grim as Children of Hurin in future DA games:crying:

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Agree that ME is less emotionally engaging, well..other than that I'm
the savior of the universe complex I now have, but the epic edge more
than compensates.  We see that the same for sure.

Yeah I think the depth of the characters in DAO is what made me really enjoy the game as much as I did , while with ME2  I'd say the characters are better than ME1  ( love Mordin!) but still not as fleshed out as those in DAO.

But the thing with ME2 was that the loyalty missions really helped to get you to relate to the squadmates more. So that by the time you get to the Suicide mission, I cared about who lived and died (unlike my total apathy for the fates of those in Awakening).

And the suicide mission itself is totally emotionally engaging- I was on the edge of my seat totally geeking out during that, pure awesome sauce. I think thats the beauty of ME- it makes you feel like you're an intergalactic badass while DAO makes you feel like a badass one second but knees you in the balls to bring you back down the next.

Modifié par Brockololly, 22 avril 2010 - 01:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I haven't read that one. The thing about Origins being tragic is that I was personally engaged and I felt like I was the Warden. So when tragedy struck, I felt like I was a victim so to speak and not just a spectator. But yea I will defiantely give the Children of Hurin a look. Thanks Brolly!

[Axekix]

Hi guys!  Morrigan is awesome

K bye!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...

Hi guys!  Morrigan is awesome

K bye!

Words of wisdom indeed

[Nonvita]

Brockololly wrote...

Tragedy is all well and good and surely a way to get someone's emotions into a story, but I think having tragedy in an RPG driven by player choice needs to  make sure that the tragedy itself is also driven by player choice, not just some static plot element. I don't know if I'd say Morrigan's romance is full on tragedy- bittersweet, heart breaking sure.

Actually, I think tragedies are most often based around circumstances that are out of the protagonists' control. Despite the fact that the player can manipulate most everything else about the world around them, there are some things that they simply cannot prevent. Morrigan leaving, to me, is tragic in the same sense that Romeo and Juliet is tragic; just as they were bound by their heritage and surroundings, so too is Morrigan bound by outside pressures. While her emotions clearly grow and the relationship is extremely meaningful, there is no way to change the fact that her priorities are in direct opposition to the relationship. It doesn't feel like just a plot device to me, and it's certainly not of a different vein than the plot devices used in the greatest tragedies ever written.

[Brockololly]

Nonvita wrote...

Actually, I think tragedies are most often based around circumstances that are out of the protagonists' control. Despite the fact that the player can manipulate most everything else about the world around them, there are some things that they simply cannot prevent. Morrigan leaving, to me, is tragic in the same sense that Romeo and Juliet is tragic; just as they were bound by their heritage and surroundings, so too is Morrigan bound by outside pressures. While her emotions clearly grow and the relationship is extremely meaningful, there is no way to change the fact that her priorities are in direct opposition to the relationship. It doesn't feel like just a plot device to me, and it's certainly not of a different vein than the plot devices used in the greatest tragedies ever written.

Yeah, I don't disagree about tragedies involving things out of someone's control- in Morrigan's case though I'd just like to know what those circumstances were. WIth respect to Morrigan leaving , sure its tragic in that she is seemingly being compelled to leave by outside forces or some sense of duty but for me at least, a couple things undermine Bioware's attempt at making it tragic like you say.

First, we have no clue what is compelling Morrigan to leave/flee the PC- we can speculate that its an attempt to escape her feelings of love towards the PC or maybe she is part of a Dragon cult or something. Unlike say Romeo and Juliet where we know why they were star crossed lovers and can see the motivations at play, we can guess why Morrigan leaves but not knowing her motivations in leaving the Warden makes the whole thing a bit contrived IMO. Its like at the Gates of Denerim you tell Morrigan you'll follow her and all she says is something to the effect of "that would not be wise." To which my PC would love to respond "Why?" Alas, we're never given the chance to learn anything about why Morrigan feels compelled to go...

I guess Morrigan does hint all throughout the game that the romance won't end well, so there is a bit of foreshadowing there regarding her departure.  I mean in Romeo and Juliet for example, we clearly know that Montagues
and Capulets don't mix, so when the tragedy hits there we understand the reasons why. But for me, after getting over the initial shock and sadness of Morrigan up and leaving, it seems too contrived and blatantly sequel-bait that we never get to know her motivations for leaving. And without knowing why she is compelled to leave and why she says the Warden can never see the Old God Baby or herself again,  instead of getting caught up in the tragedy of the moment, I got pulled out of the game by the lack of explanations there which stuck out like a sore thumb.

[Nonvita]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, I don't disagree about tragedies involving things out of someone's control- in Morrigan's case though I'd just like to know what those circumstances were. WIth respect to Morrigan leaving , sure its tragic in that she is seemingly being compelled to leave by outside forces or some sense of duty but for me at least, a couple things undermine Bioware's attempt at making it tragic like you say.

First, we have no clue what is compelling Morrigan to leave/flee the PC- we can speculate that its an attempt to escape her feelings of love towards the PC or maybe she is part of a Dragon cult or something. Unlike say Romeo and Juliet where we know why they were star crossed lovers and can see the motivations at play, we can guess why Morrigan leaves but not knowing her motivations in leaving the Warden makes the whole thing a bit contrived IMO. Its like at the Gates of Denerim you tell Morrigan you'll follow her and all she says is something to the effect of "that would not be wise." To which my PC would love to respond "Why?" Alas, we're never given the chance to learn anything about why Morrigan feels compelled to go...

I guess Morrigan does hint all throughout the game that the romance won't end well, so there is a bit of foreshadowing there regarding her departure.  I mean in Romeo and Juliet for example, we clearly know that Montagues
and Capulets don't mix, so when the tragedy hits there we understand the reasons why. But for me, after getting over the initial shock and sadness of Morrigan up and leaving, it seems too contrived and blatantly sequel-bait that we never get to know her motivations for leaving. And without knowing why she is compelled to leave and why she says the Warden can never see the Old God Baby or herself again,  instead of getting caught up in the tragedy of the moment, I got pulled out of the game by the lack of explanations there which stuck out like a sore thumb.

Ahh yes, I see your point. But as much as I'd love to discuss further right now, my brain is far too scattered to form a coherent argument. So for the moment, let me just throw a lovely screenshot in here as a distraction and quietly sneak out the back door...

Morrigan, you're beautiful.



(On another note, I've become jealous to discover that several of my cousins are blessed with very exotic, Morrigan-esque beauty. Why do genetics hate me so?)

[KnightofPhoenix]

This is a modded Morrigan, no? If so, it's fake and not as beautiful as the original

[Nonvita]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is a modded Morrigan, no? If so, it's fake and not as beautiful as the original

Says the man who posted a modded Morrigan pic up-page.

Actually I think her vanilla appearance in game is terrible. The concept art is absolutely gorgeous, but they took her characteristics and exaggerated them too far. But hey, if you like her that way, then good on you, Ser Knight.

[blademaster7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is a modded Morrigan, no? If so, it's fake and not as beautiful as the original

Agreed. I don't understand why people use mods. Vanilla Morrigan is just fine... Maybe I'm saying it because the face model grew on me(as with all the characters really).

[Terra_Ex]

blademaster7 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is a modded Morrigan, no? If so, it's fake and not as beautiful as the original

Agreed. I don't understand why people use mods. Vanilla Morrigan is just fine... Maybe I'm saying it because the face model grew on me(as with all the characters really).

Gah, so much beauty on one page, sadly marred by Ali's presence

I too am fine with the vanilla face models, imo, if you change them they're no longer the same character... just the way I feel. In other positive news, the first version of the mod will be up later today (got lectures all day sadly) so look forward to that. I'll also see about responding to some of the fantastic posts from the past hours.

[blademaster7]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Gah, so much beauty on one page, sadly marred by Ali's presence

[blademaster7]

Terra, is your mod compatible with ejoslin's Zevran dialogue fix?



I noticed that you didn't restore the missing dialogue at the gates.



I also picked up some other things that need addressing, but I'll tell you later. We don't wanna delay the release now, do we?

[Master Shiori]

Terra_Ex wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is a modded Morrigan, no? If so, it's fake and not as beautiful as the original

Agreed. I don't understand why people use mods. Vanilla Morrigan is just fine... Maybe I'm saying it because the face model grew on me(as with all the characters really).

Gah, so much beauty on one page, sadly marred by Ali's presence

I too am fine with the vanilla face models, imo, if you change them they're no longer the same character... just the way I feel. In other positive news, the first version of the mod will be up later today (got lectures all day sadly) so look forward to that. I'll also see about responding to some of the fantastic posts from the past hours.

Yay!! Looking forward to trying it out Terra

[Terra_Ex]

blademaster7 wrote...

Terra, is your mod compatible with ejoslin's Zevran dialogue fix?

I noticed that you didn't restore the missing dialogue at the gates.

I also picked up some other things that need addressing, but I'll tell you later. We don't wanna delay the release now, do we?

The gates dialog is in the same file that ejoslin has been making changes to and Charsen is part way through implementing Gatekisses into, rather than conflicting with their ongoing work in that area, I'm releasing what I've done so far, and will hopefully be working with them to get the missing dialog back into my mod, alongside Charsen's restored kisses. I'm in constant contact with them via PM to ensure everything is co-ordinated so all issues relating to the gate scene will be fixed in a later release. As I said, the most critical parts of her dialogue are restored, and I don't want to pressure Charsen into rushing his work, and certainly couldn't achieve what he's doing in any kind of reasonable timeframe.. But sure, let me know if you've found more issues and I'll set about fixing them.

[blademaster7]

Oh, well...

The "So what do I have to do to get on your good side?" discussion should not be available if you already slept with her. Maybe not even available if the romance is active in it's latter stages(70+ approval). In vanilla, you can bring it up whenever you want(even at 100 love).

That was supposed to be a pre-romance flirting.... can you put a flag or something?

Speaking of flags... a few dialogue options during the DR need revision. i have a few suggestions about that but if you're not willing to change anything, then I will forget  it.

Modifié par blademaster7, 22 avril 2010 - 10:53 .

[blademaster7]

I read the comments about the subject of confessing love during the DR. Allow me to throw in my 2 cents.

She was more than welcome to be in your room and yet it seemed that she "sneaked" there. And then she gives you her business-like speech. It was obvious to me that her speech was rehearsed(as it should).

I agree with the notion that it would make her love a total BS if she said "I love you take me now". I'm sure barbarossa didn't mean it that way.

I would have preferred it was something in-between.

Wouldn't be better if she started talking and then pausing every now and then? Stutter a bit, and then her voice starts trembling? Show as a woman that is deperately trying to hide her feelings in her speech BUT show them in her facial expressions. Eh?

That's all I wanted.

Aimo's comic kinda makes up for it I guess. Gaider admitted that she was "supposed" to be sitting on your bed trying to figure out was she was supposed to say. But alas, we're stuck with the version of Morrigan we met back in the korcari wilds.

[Terra_Ex]

blademaster7 wrote...

Oh, well...

The "So what do I have to do to get on your good side?" discussion should not be available if you already slept with her. Maybe not even available if the romance is active in it's latter stages(70+ approval). In vanilla, you can bring it up whenever you want(even at 100 love).

That was supposed to be a pre-romance flirting.... can you put a flag or something?

I'll check it out tonight when I get back, might already have fixed this but not put it in the readme.

blademaster7 wrote...

Speaking of flags... a few dialogue options during the DR need revision. i have a few suggestions about that but if you're not willing to change anything, then I will forget  it.

By all means, please list any stuff that you think should change for the DR here and I'll have a look at it when I get home.

As it stands, the known "issues" that won't be addressed in the initial release are:
-gate kisses, since Charsen has kindly offered to do this.
-dialog fixes to party_events city gates scene in denerim, since I'd rather wait for ejoslin & Charsen to finalise their work on this area rather than creating a potentially conflicting version of my own.
-kiss scene in the dark ritual, I don't consider this of critical importance at this time, I honestly haven't tried putting it in yet but I'd rather get the initial release out there now which addresses the most important stuff.

Each of these should hopefully be address in a later revision of the mod.