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[Esbatty]

Jarlof Seoul wrote...

I would enjoy a "rogue" (in Chantry/Templar eyes) Warden plot. It has potential.

I always thought that was an interesting point to Alistair's recruitment story. The fact that The Chantry didn't want to let go of control of Maric's son to Duncan when the time came to rescue him from being under Lyrium control. The fact the Chantry was gonna make a big to do about it... it would've been an interesting fight. The Grey Warden's universal recruitment versus The Chantry's presence in nearly every nation.

[Bruddajakka]

Esbatty wrote...

EDIT: Chapter 6, Part 2 of 3, "Forsaken" is now up for the ongoing story In the Land Of Ever.

***

One thing I found very interesting said by Gaider is that Morrigan represents Thedas. Its a place that is in conflict with itself. Morrigan shows that she can be swayed, she still has her agenda - her destiny in the change to come, but still The Warden whether male or female, friend or lover or even foe, can have an effect on her and the views she has.

So be it that Morrigan best represents the world of Dragon Age, a world in conflict, so the Old God Child represents... what exactly? Since its existence is wholly dependant on the actions of The Warden. I mean without The Warden existing we know that Alistair fails, Morrigan and the rest die horribly. So the Warden is the catalyst for the change to happen. Yes The Architect triggered the Blight by exposing an imprisoned Old God to the taint, but without The Warden to halt The Blight thered be no Ferelden. The Archie would have a foothold in Thedas and a horde of ghouls and captured females turned Broodmothers to overrun Thedas.

Morrigan and Flemeth need the Wardens to not only stop the blight that has changed The Status Quo of Ferelden but also stirred up Orlais, The Free Marches, etc. The Dalish and the Dwarves were also effected. I mean The Blight was coming at the worst possible time. Ferelden needed a hero, an icon, a champion... Cailan wanted not only to be The King but also The Hero, and clearly he was not. He was simply "The Son of", Loghain was indeed a Hero that Ferelden needed at the time but his time had passed he was more a fixture and a cog in the royal machine. A big cog but still he was just part of the court.

So when it comes down to it, Morrigan is Thedas, The Warden is the Catalyst for the coming change. The way I see it the change has to involve The Chantry because its the only near universal thing other than magic that is across the whole of Thedas and since The Chantry controls the Templars and the Templars control the Mages, the Chantry needs to go. It no longer reflects what Andraste stood for. And for all we know Andraste was Flemeth or an Old God made flesh. Which brings to mind The Old God Child. Whether it was born or not - its presence or lack thereof - to help Shepard the change (heh, Shepard)... would have to be the biggest deciding factor in how Thedas handles the change.

With Morrigan, again, is like Thedas... the Warden is the catalyst for the change... the Chantry (or Thedas' view of magic) as what needs to be changed... and the OGC as the focus for the new direction.

The Old God Child is either born of the Hero Ferelden, born of the King of Ferelden, or simply is born of the Therin bloodline... nevertheless its heritage is defintely intertwined into the history of Ferelden be it recent or its long storied past.

So the Dark Ritual whether it happens or not IS a huge factor, the hugest factor. With Dragon Age 2 we're gonna see 10 years worth of dominos knocking about and nice thing about it is there are 3 lines of intersecting dominos, morrigan's, the warden's, and flemeth's. As they've said before Hawke is simply a mortal man or woman who becomes The Champion of Kirkwall. They become important, Flemeth puts him or her on that road, much like The Warden, but this time the package ain't Fresh Warden Seed rather its an ... actual package.

Again Flemeth's a trickster, she's sneaky and underhanded, a shapeshifter and old as hell. So by having Hawke on hand to be manipulated into doing what she wants incase of a dead warden or wandered off warden or a kind of son-in-law warden, she makes Hawke into another finger into another pie.

So far we know the Qunari are back and badder than ever, their weakness (other than baked goods) is magic since they are technologically inclined and storied warriors, so by coming to the Free Marches and startin' sh*t while The Chantry is undergoing turmoil due to The Templars and Circle of Magi, now is the moment for the Qun to strike. If the Chantry can't organize the Mages to hold back the Qunari forces - well the Qunari will come and reeducate or kill everyone in their way.

So much like Flemeth used The Blight and the Darkspawn - which weakened and rearranged Ferelden - as her springboard into changing the world the Qunari are her next big threat to help weaken the Chantry. So that leaves Rivain, the Anderfels, uhh... Orlais (which the epilogue slides tell us Morrigan pregnant or otherwise dips into the Empress' Court). With Rivain being more religiously free and the Anderfels being Warden Central (right?) I think Morrigan and Flemeth have all their bases covered.

Wow I am rambling. So yeah... make of that what you will. But I am excited for Dragon Age 2 and for anything more than can give me into a glimpse into the other parts of Thedas. Because the more we know about Thedas the more we'll learn about Morrigan.

That's rather nicely thought out, and I agrre with a lot of it. Also reminds me I was going to name one of my character Shepard Cousland, but decided I rather liked Aeden.

[Brockololly]

Terra's epic post requires a response!



[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
In the spirit of keeping some semblance of positivity in the Morri thread, I'll try to keep my responses to the rant-related stuff from several pages back to a minimum. [/quote]

Bah! Positivity? In the Morrigan thread? THIS IS THE MORRIGAN THREAD!  *dons Hawke/300 beard and does slow motion kick of Positivity down bottomless pit*

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Yeah, while there are some noteworthy mods that completely redo character appearances, once you do that (for me) they just aren't the same character anymore. [/quote]
It comes down to the fact that I spent dozens of hours looking at a specific character, hearing a specific voice coming out of a very specific face. And you change that face yet retain the voice? Its just off putting and weird.

Of note, one of the character artists on DA2 braved the forums to shed some light on returning characters in this thread:

[quote]SonFrancisco wrote...

[quote]nijnij wrote...

Now I was a bit surprised myself when I saw the new Flemeth.........
........... apart from the clothes, she didn't change that much. She just looks, well... more powerful (slightly younger).
[/quote]

Kicking that brat out of the house really did wonders for her don't ya think?  Toss on a change of clothes, a long bath, a full nights rest and a touch of makeup....its like she were only a hundred years old again! (I  really don't know how old she is)


[quote]Generally speaking, I don't mind changes in art direction (I don't think the  armors should necessarily look the same for example since they were a  bit too generic in DA:O IMO) as long as they're not utter retcons. [/quote]

We've redone the armors across the board to fit with the new art style (no  more women with linebacker wide shoulders!) so they won't be wearing the same models they wore in the first. But they would probably wear
something similar and identifiable if their look was signature. Like how the templar armors are different stylistically, but still look like templar armor.

To address some of the concerns about returning  characters though, upgrading the heads was a huge goal among us  character artists. We didn't choose to improve everyones look just  because of the art style, but because we revamped the head system  entirely. We've redone textures completley to be less stretchy and more  detailed and worked very hard to make these brand new face meshes  animate spectacularly better than before. But we are aware of the  attachment value of particular characters from DA:O and the need for  consistency, so we're being very careful about re-introducing familiar  faces. 

Minor characters who didn't get the same polish in the  first one but became breakout stars in the second, (Isabela) get  overhauls to give them the uniqueness and appeal that their characters  deserved. So they now stand out among the rest.

For major  characters who might return, they would remain the same structurally and cosmetically. Especially the humans, unless the the art director or  design/writing deem it otherwise. We really want cameos to be recognized at a glance or familiar under scrutiny. That said, no matter how much  we might try, due to the new head system and the art style, the lighting engine and camera work, they may not look 100% identical. Its  unfortunate, but we hope they'll at least be recognizable. For the races that have been stylized, such as the dwarves and elves, the changes  will be apparent but we hope to keep their cosmetic features the same (hair, eye color and tattoos)

We put a lot of effort into  creating the star characters of DA:O, we love them as much as you all  do. If they happen to get a makeover, it will get the same amount of  care, love and attention to detail that went into them originally and we hope you'll agree with us that it was for the better.
[/quote]

[quote]SonFrancisco wrote...
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Yeah, I'm just curious (and this isn't necessarily aimed at you) why if there were plans on bringing back certain characters, there wasn't some  functionality built into the new head morph system to utilize some of  the Origins faces, at least structurally speaking? I'd just hate to have some returning human character like an Alistair, Nathaniel Howe, or  Morrigan show back up and only be able to recognize them based on their  hair style or only after they open their mouth and you recognize the  voice actor.............

[/quote]

Fortunately we have our  methods of approximating one to the other and getting it close, should  we need to. That's what i was referring to, in part, about not being  100% identical but still sharing the structural and cosmetic  similarities and being recognizable. However, putting all the points  about why they might look different aside, when dealing with two models  of varying poly counts and vertex numbers its a little more challenging  to make one look like the other at a microscopic level. The topology and flow of the DA:O mesh is not as optimized for animation as the DA2 ones and therefore may not accurately wrap cleanly along the same lines,  curves and shapes of eachother, particularly when speaking. There will  always be subtle differences. 

As far as Alistair and Nathaniel  Howe or Morrigan and other key npcs are concerned, should they ever  re-appear in Dragon Age with the new head system, you might double-take, but my hope is you'll be pleasantly relieved (maybe even a little  excited!). 

[/quote]

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Someone needs to gather any warden-related quotes that Gaider and co have given out and see if any definite conclusions can be drawn. I'm not convinced the Grey Wardens story is over after DA:O. As you say, lots of potential for future plotlines and there's enough wiggle room to bring all wardens back into the picture. [/quote]

Heh- gathering old quotes is just about impossible now that Dragon Age central is no more.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I believe one of the devs said we won't be going underground in DA2 - maybe Gaider. Something was said in regards to players not visiting any underground dwarven cities iirc.[/quote]
Yeah, I've heard several people say that, but I like to think I've been keeping up on most everything and can't recall a dev saying that. And you have that one concept art piece labeled "Deep Roads" as well as the trailer which seems to show the Deep Roads as well as the Harvester. So maybe we don't go into Orzammar or a proper city, but I'm expecting we go into the Deep Roads, just not as long as in Origins.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
A definite yes to being able to instigate conversations anywhere. ME2 was just littered with such tell tale signs, that lack of freedom oversimplifies things for me, the gun holstering thing certainly gave you an instant visual cue that you were about to get attacked.[/quote]

Its that overall handcuffing and lack of freedom in things that has me most worried about DA2. The taking away of choice is a definite step backwards as an RPG.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
When you look at how Flemeth weaves the concept of inevitability into so much of her dialogue, why would she put everything on Morrigan. Perhaps Morrigan was to serve as a distraction, I liked Esbatty's idea that even a US warden might be falling prey to her scheme.[/quote]
Thats true. Unless of course, Flemeth is somehow manipulating Morrigan, maybe even via blood magic? Such that Morrigan's mind isn't even her own, yet she doesn't even realize it?

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Likewise US wardens - I'm not convinced that the US is all it appears to be considering the one who set you on that course (Flemeth) told you far less than she's privy to when it comes to wardens and the blight, a point underlined With the vague connection made between the Blight & Flemeth in WH.[/quote]
I'm of the same mind there too. Flemeth has some connection to the Blight and in turn the Wardens. And we barely know anything of the Wardens- for all we know, the DR type ritual has been done before but its been covered up- its all one big Grey Warden conspiracy!

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Exactly, as you say that is just one of many factors that make the silent PC so appealing. The thing with a silent PC is the benefits aren't necessarily immediately apparent to the untrained eye. Whereas with a voiced PC, you have the immediate impact at the expense of player freedom. [/quote]

Yeah, again, it comes down to player freedom and choice. The thing is, DAO had a decent amount of choice and freedom, not just in dialogue but in other things like armor and the inventory and all that. And yet there seems to be question on the DA2 forums whether we'll end up stuck with some ME2 style armor for companions. Seems we'll know more this Thursday when they release the next podcast. But if you played Origins that lack of choice will be very evident and I think only then will it become clear what you're missing out on- much like people complained about ME2's streamlining- except it'll be even more so given DA's more traditional RPG heritage.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
You certainly could make such a case, which will lead back to my original point that *if* every player choice automatically results in taking the nearest available exit/easiest way out then there was really no choice to begin with and the entire concept of meaningful no-canon within this series is called into question.
[/quote]

Yeah, it'll be telling how they handle the choices in terms of having actual consequences. The fact that we're dealing with a new PC in a new geographics terrirtory already gives them an excuse to marginalize many of them. It comes down to resources and how much they want to accomodate having choice actually result in meaningful and divergent consequences. Some choices should block off certain content- and thats not a bad thing.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Couldn't agree more and WH was a relatively small scale endeavour, for the game that concludes Morrigan's arc the forums will be ablaze if it's underwhelming.[/quote]

Absolutely. And as we've said many times, the Warden has to have some role in the conclusion to Morrigan's story whenever that occurs. Otherwise it'll feel shallow and forced.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well there you go, with WH BioWare just heaped a fresh batch of plot flags onto a living warden and to have the consequences of those decision affect anyone but the warden would be illogical imo.[/quote]

True, however, resurrecting the US Wardens for Awakening was illogical and that didn't stop BioWare:?

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well, ME2 was relatively bug free but only because there's very little to go wrong with the proven tech (Unreal) and the most complex decisions come down to choosing between the red or blue branches. I really hope that we don't have incredibly obvious bugs like Morri's shapeshifting slipping through the net.[/quote]
Yeah- and ME2 is a much shorter game where the dialogue, like you said, doesn't really result in many varying consequences- just red or blue. But still- that Conrad Verner cameo still bugs me. They never fixed that did they? Thats the thing in games like ME or DAO- when a story bug happens you're not sure if its an actual bug or if its intended and to me, when your whole modus operandi as a developer is making great story driven games, those story bugs like WH are totally damning.

Sort of unrelated but kind of interesting, in this thread which was talking about the lack of cloaks and horses, you have Gaider saying how originally, DA2 was just going to stick with the same graphics and iterate on content, like BG2 did. *sigh* What could have been....
[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
guh...I'd have gladly kept the non "hot rod samurai" graphics "improvement" of  DA2 for horses and cloaks and who knows what else. Its just a tad  disappointing with DA2 as I was thinking it would take the BG2 route of a sequel and build on what Origins established and add more cool stuff,  instead of ripping out the foundation and starting over.[/quote]

It wasn't just making it "hot rod samurai", though. We did proceed with  exactly what you suggested at first, but part of the problem with DAO  was that it spent so long in development and thus its graphics  were pretty behind the times in terms of newer releases. Happily that  didn't have a big effect on its sales (or so we assume), but that  situation was only going to get worse as time passed-- even for those of you that don't personally assign much value to graphics, you have to  admit this is true. From our perspective it was either feel the pain now or feel it even more later when and if we made a third game.

[/quote]


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Absolutely, I think I read somewhere that Claudia wasn't scheduled to do any work for DA2, so I'm not too concerned on that front. Limiting it to references will certainly make my DA2 playthrough more enjoyable.[/quote]
Yeah, I know Claudia Black is doing VO for Gears of War 3, but I am curious when she did the VO for Witch Hunt? A long time ago or more recently? Cause certainly if they had her in for Witch Hunt around the time they were doing DA2 stuff- you never know.... But I'd rather we only get references to Morrigan and not see her until the Warden can return along side her.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Yep, as I touched upon earlier if they just respond in a generic way (if at all) then it works against everything you've tried to accomplish during your interactions with them.[/quote]
Yeah, it comes down to choice and freedom again. Like Gaider mentioned when talking about the graphics getting upgraded sort of at the expense of a BG2 like iteration in terms of more content, it seems in DA2 we're sacrificing content and freedom in how we converse for more cinematics. I don't care for that shift in resources personally- it might be good for one playthrough, but as I've found out in ME2, it makes susbequent playthroughs very stale.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Oh great, so we get to see Varric sat on the chair instead of the Illusive Man this time around. *sigh*[/quote]

Oh sheesh. Maybe we'll get to see how many headshots our archer racked up too.<_<

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The problem is that in your example you'd be looking at it solely from a romance perspective. Morrigan's greater plot arc is not exclusive to a male who romanced her, the warden is involved in the Flemeth/Morrigan plot regardless of who their LI is. It's exactly as I pointed out earlier (some pages back now), whoever your LI is doesn't limit where the plot can go. Shepard had new romance interests in ME2, it doesn't mean it invalidates the old ones.[/quote]
Right- its like Gaider said after they announced WH- Morrigan is central to the other Wardens too, not just those who romanced her. Certainly her story has more immediate significance to those who romanced her, but she still has a plot heavy story role for others as well.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
And if you do want to look at it solely from a romance perspective, non-Morrigan romancers were rewarded in both Origins & Awakening while Morri romancers got nothing. There were no letters/kisses from Morri in Awakening, and the slide we did get was and still is bugged (as was the one in Origins). Yes, only male romancers can go through the Eluvian with her (as it should be, imo), there's your (belated) romance closure, but the greater plot can still be applied equally to all wardens through the various WH endings - there is setup there and in Awakening that applies to all wardens and possibly ties them into the coming "change".[/quote]
Right again. As Gaider mentioned again in the early WH announcement thread, Morrigan romancing Wardens got screwed over in Origins and Awakening in terms of any closure. But even still, Witch Hunt just reaffirms Morrigan's significance to the overall DA world and specifically her role with the Wardens- whether the Hero of Ferelden or otherwise.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Whenever the issue of Morrigan's story being continued comes up, people immediately answer with ZOMG, my warden hates teh Morrigan, but I highly doubt the entire game would be solely based on Morrigan, it'd be larger in scale and Morri would be one component of the overall plot, thus as Brock stated, the plot sets you on the path where your character might happen upon Morrigan.[/quote]
Yuppers- just like WH set things up for every Warden searching for Morrigan, should she be plot centric in the future they'd come up with some other reason. And I doubt Morrigan would the central focus of the plot- maybe she would be, but who knows at this early stage.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Morrigan's return isn't about continuing the romance - as it ends in WH, she's either in love with the warden or she isn't, the romance is separate from her greater plot (even if it does entwine beautifully with the Origins plotline ingame). What it is about however is concluding her story in a meaningful way, one which should include the warden in some capacity where appropriate if you want her to retain some real depth of character. As I've stated before, the warden doesn't have to be the protagonist, but they should definitely be present (for at least one particular ending) or BioWare will have once again flaunted a bunch of setup material (like how the DR and Origins epilogue were pointing towards Orlais) and then decided to do something else. Granted there are no guarantees but the almost bait and switch approach to plot development quickly becomes tiresome.[/quote]
Absolutely- should Morrigan return with the Warden, it wouldn't necessarily be about just the romance, but certainly the romance could add unique flavor to any interactions with Morrigan- just as it could if you gut stabbed her or were BFFs with her. The way in which you interact with Morrigan as the Warden is what makes here agreat character- she has a sort of fixed personality to be sure, but she also takes vastly different ones based on how you have treated her.

And yes, its fine if they go in an unxpected direction I guess, but you start doing it just for the sake of doing it, and it does indeed feel like a bait and switch and that gets irritating and can kill my interest in a farnchise awfully quick if it feels like the devs are just yanking on your chain.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
 That said, if there were sufficient telemetry data to support it, would they consider ignoring companion deaths and bringing them back anyway? [/quote]
I'd hope so:

Warden: But I killed you Zevran!
Zevran: I got better.

But certainly if the data was overwhelming I'd think at least it would be an indicator to maybe sink more resources into progressing one angle of the story moreso than the less popular way.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
For now I'd prefer to hope that BioWare can actually pull something decent off and learn from past mistakes as we move forwards. While there are no guarantees, BioWare did go back and fix all the WH bugs (with the specific purpose that those flags were meant to be important), the most important being that final save so I'm thinking it might be leading somewhere given how the devs do touch upon the possibility of the warden returning.[/quote]
Thats my hope too- if WH's choice didn't mean anything they wouldn't have bothered patching it, and patching it so quickly- unlike Awakening. Of course, maybe the WH flags only relate tangentally to how Morrigan may appear in the future in broad terms, not necessarily anything to do with the Warden. But its a far simpler solution, logically speaking, to have those flags mean something for the Warden that interacted with her.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as Brock on this issue, how this is handled is a major factor in my continued interest in the series and will serve to determine in my mind whether protagonist jumping can work well in tandem with recurring characters. I'll put some faith in Gaider & the devs and hope all these hints are working toward a logical & meaningful resolution down the line.[/quote]

Yeah, the level of continuity and consequences we see in DA2 will be a good indicator whether the whole importing feature is anything of note or just anothe rmarketing point they can slap on the back of the box.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Hah, I'll go out on a limb and guess that Flemeth will task Hawke with destroying all Eluvians during the course of DA2. I do hope that DA2 moves the Flemeth side of things along somewhat and (hopefully) gives some answers.[/quote]
You know it would be interesting if, given how it would seem that Hawke is MIA during Cassandra's interrogation of Varric, if Hawke didn't go off into an Eluvian as well, searching for Morrigan and/or the Warden. Or maybe Hawke just went searching for the Warden that vanished at the end of Awakening- as Hawke realizes that in order to bring the world back from the brink of war he/she needs the Warden/Morrigan as it might be somehow tied to Flemeth and the change too.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
To an extent both are relative innocents, but in different aspects of life which makes for an interesting group dynamic at the very least.[/quote]
Very true- Alistair and Morrigan are rather similar, its just that Morrigan's snark has the angle of being an outsider and apostate while Alistair has been locked in with the Chantry as a Templar. So they're really not too different personality wise and both had sheltered upbringings, but the differences in their upbringings has colored how they see the world, even if they haven't really seen the world much with their own eyes.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Once again, I've every confidence that BioWare will seek to account for differences in the concept stages, but whether this will actually make it through to production and into the final game is another matter. I just cast my mind back to scenes like those illustrated in Aimo's comic which imo does a lot to underline Morrigan's emotions in the context of the DR. As a direct result of that cut it really screws up a lot of the development the player had experienced up till that point due to the one-size-fits-all approach. That happened within the space of one game, so like you Brock, I suppose the proof will be in the pudding come DA3 but cut corners and minor cameos likely won't cut it for me.[/quote]
Right on- thats the thing- you can plan up all this great continuity and consequences, but its what is in the final game that matters. Like you brought up. the Aimo scene for the DR adds a TON of context to Morrigan, yet they cut it from the final game, which , makes the DR scene come off as dramatically different. The shorter dev time for DA2 has me worried that more of those sort of character development scenes will get hacked down such that we end up with less interesting characters or more plot threads that lack closure or don't make sense unless you're one of the writers or devs that knows how the full story should have played out.

I do wonder about that sometimes- the devs and writers are privvy to much more lore and content than what we know. So I wonder if they don't on occassion lose sight of what the average gamer knows just from the game? Like, Gaider and the devs probably know how Morrigan fits into DA2 or maybe generally what role she plays in the DA timeline. But its like they're sort of metagaming- they just have to be sure to give the player enough stuff to go off of, as in WH, I don't think they provided enough info and answers- so to them it might be so clear as to what the stuff in WH is alluding to, for the gamer not much of it makes sense.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I also wonder - if all of BioWare's assumptions on what was "popular" are based on telemetry and various forums, what of those who don't play online or never completed the game (supposedly the majority) - how do these play into shaping the future of DA resource management.[/quote]
Yes, if I recall, you have to opt in to the telemetry by clicking the box. I think its unchecked normally. And if DAO sold more on consoles anyway, I doubt most people are hooked up to Live when playing a single player game like Origins necessarily.

But I'd like to think that the devs have a vision regardless of the telemetry- and that the telemetry might give them some fine tuning in their direction of the franchise maybe in terms of relative popularity of features and characters maybe. But how they interpret all that is important too- like how in ME2 more people played Soldier than any otehr class combined- does that mean playthroughs to completion or just people who played for 10 minuets and sold it back to Gamestop? Personally, I'd be focusing more on the people that finished the game and not incomplete playthroughs.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Brock is basically the spokesperson for the Morri fandom, it's uncanny how accurately his posts @ the devs reflect the current vibe.[/quote]

Thank you, thank you.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I've no problem with Morrigan not being in DA2, it's actually preferable and helps build suspense while developing the Flemeth angle. This does however almost necessitate DA3 featuring Morrigan as her continued absence would cause the thread to lose its momentum and significance in ongoing events. It's all very well trying to be clever avoiding the "obvious" plot threads to continue, but they need to be tackled while the player still has a vested interest in the series and more you stretch it, the more jaded the player's view gets.[/quote]
Exactly- its further building up Morrigan's plot in the player'smind. And potentially building it up too far if they keep teasing with no answers. But definitely, if DA3 once again doesn't feature Morrigan in a significant way, it kind of renders and cliffhanger or anticiipation over her plot pointless as DA4 is waaaaaay in the future, if it were to happen at all. Having DA2 be about a new PC with likely little direct progression of Morrigan's plot (when Morrigan's plot is what I'm most intrested in with DA) is already a bit of a stretch in terms of my interest in DA.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Hmmm, after reading recent posts I have serious concerns about Morri retaining anything close to her original facial appearance. As for the warden, I'm resigned to the fact that it'll likely be a complete rebuild if he/she returns in any meaningful way.[/quote]
Yeah, I'm most worried Morrigan will end up having a massive jaw/chin  with buggy eyes like all of the DA2 characters seem to have. Ugh. And how the characters look is especially important when you're dealing with a game where presumably you're in dialogue for a hefty portion of the game.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Well I think we've hit another snag in BW's rampant retconning tbh. In my mind, if a returning character doesn't have "something" that allows a fan to immediately discern "Hey, that's Isabela" (based on knowledge from DA:O) without prompting then you've got a problem. That said, I wasn't impressed with Isabela's original facemorph and since she's presumably getting upgraded from a minor character you can potentially justify it I suppose. [/quote]
Sure, Isabela getting "amped up" is ok, since she was such a minor character in Origins. But for someone like Morrigan or Alistair? No, unless you're going to break continuity and reboot things, their faces should be the same- change their hair, clothes, whatever, but theri faces should look the same. I'll repost my thoughts on existing characters here, as I posted in another thread:

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]In Exile wrote...
Could I ask why? I mean, I understand that to you visual continuity is very  important - but why? In reality if someone I know had a different face,  it would freak me out. But video-games are an entirely different thing.
It's like a book - you can't even see the character or invent features  for them except in the most arbitrary mental sense, so don't you relate  to them based on whether or not you are told it's [x] character and that character behaves, well, consistent with the previously established character?
[/quote]

Well, except that unlike books, a video game is a visual medium. So unless  you're saying you're just rebooting everything, I expect a returning  character, especially a major returning character like Morrigan or  Alistair to facial structure wise look the same. If they change their  wardrobe or hair or whatever, thats fine. Its when they radically alter a character's face- like Sucker Punch tried to do with Cole for inFamous 2 before the backlash caused them to change it back- that it irks me.

I know they've said they're changing the art style and thus everything will  change, but it depends on how much. To use movies as an example, Batman  and the Joker have gone through many different looks, but thats usually  tied to a reimagining of their entire universe. Take the Joker:


Now both Nicholson and Ledger made great Jokers, but they both looked quite different, yet retained certain defining features visually. The issue  I'm having with visually retconning existing Origins characters for DA2  is that it would be like taking Jack's Joker and then making a sequel  where, without explanation he looked like Ledger's Joker while stil  keeping the lore of Burton's Batman world. That would bother me greatly. The variance in the look of the Joker or the difference between Adam  West's Batman versus Christian Bale's Batman is that the whole world was redesigned and any continuity between was nixed and everything started  over. Yet with DA2, its as if we go from Christian Bale's Batman both in look and voice:


but for the supposed sequel, they change the look of Batman to this:

while still retaining Bale's batman voice. That would be a major disconnect  that would absolutely rip me out of the movie/game/show. Its not even  like just recasting an actor for a role, as you're keeping the same  voice actor but giving their character a new face- that just seems  terribly off putting to me and weird.

The varying Joker or Batman looks work in the context of their entire reimaginings of their worlds, not only visually but thematically. Yet with DA2, they're seemingly  trying to keep the lore and characters and world the same, yet  completely reimagining everything visually. So it just creates a big  disconnect for any returning character.

It would be like taking  the aesthetic of BUrton's Batman world and keeping the same lore and  tone, yet for the sequel changing up that whole gothic look to Nolan's  more modern look- with no explanation as to the change visually since  its not even a reboot. Thats why I'm confused about DA2- its supposed to be set in the same world as Origins, but now everything looks different when its not even a complete thematic reboot like the changes in visual style between Batman movies were or what you have often have when  comics change artists. And it just creates a disconnect.

If I've spent dozens of hours hearing Claudia Black's voice come out of the a face that looks like this:


I pick up on the little defining features of that face. And all told,  that face tied to Claudia Black's voice is what makes up the character  of Morrigan to me. You can pick up defining features of Morrigan's look, like her dark hair or her eye shadow or her overall face structure and  shape and thats what I associate with Morrigan in a visual sense- and in a video game, that look is just as important as her VO, and writing.  Taken all together thats what makes Morrigan, the character, to me. Its  all that put together that I'm interested in seeing how her story  continues.

Yet if you plop this face down (no offense to whoever modded this):


And tell me thats Morrigan simply because she has the same VO, writing and  dark hair, thats just not Morrigan to me after having played Origins for dozens of hours after having Morrigan look like in the first screen.  And it just creates a weird disconnect and kills any sense of continuity or emotional engagement I may have had lingering from the first game.

It all depends on how closely they match the face and whether, like the  Joker retaining key aspects of his look, they can identify key features  of a character's face without going crazy. About the only Morrigan face  morph I actually like is from Adneate because its subtle but retains the key unique things in vanilla Morrigan's facial structure:



All told, maybe its a subjective thing, but its something that bothers me in any game.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]
[/quote]


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I read that DA2 will adopt a Cerberus network style approach to its DLC content. Across the board, it seems that much is being brought in line with that fabled work, for better or worse.[/quote]
And I'd guess as we learn more about DA2, we'll see its very much going to end up taking most cues from ME in what its changing from Origins. But it'll be interesting to see how the DLC shapes up- although the notion that DA2 is only going to be ME2 length yet they're already working on DLC irks me greatly. I think the age of any 50+ hour single player BioWare game is over.

And seeing as its Halloween time- Halloween Morrigan!

By Batata-Tasha


By Vaidilute


By SelphieSK

And awesome angry Morrigan!

By Aimo


Oh and if anyone wants to play a scary game and just a damn good game, play Amnesia: The Dark Descent- excellent indie game made by 5 people. Scariest game I've ever played and its on sale on Steam and at the dev's site.

Modifié par Brockololly, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Alistairs_Queen]

Has anyone finished Witch Hunt? I imported my Male Cousland from Origins. I romanced Morrigan, and took the DR. I kept her at love all throughout the game, and for some reason Leliana kpet trying to get in my pants. I never encouraged her, so I'm not sure why. The only funny thing with that, she accused me of 'wading through Morrigan's swamp' Has anyone else ever gotten this line?



Anyway, at the gates after the DR, Morrigan made a comment about how she wished she could stay with me, so I was very eager to play witch hunt. I just finished it, and needless to say I was very satisfied with my ending. IT may have to do with the choices you made in Origins, and WH. But I'm very pleased.

[Esbatty]

Chapter 6 is now complete with its third and final part "March of the Pigs" for the In The Land Of Ever story.

Alistairs_Queen wrote...

Has anyone finished Witch Hunt? I imported my Male Cousland from Origins. I romanced Morrigan, and took the DR. I kept her at love all throughout the game, and for some reason Leliana kpet trying to get in my pants. I never encouraged her, so I'm not sure why. The only funny thing with that, she accused me of 'wading through Morrigan's swamp' Has anyone else ever gotten this line?

Anyway, at the gates after the DR, Morrigan made a comment about how she wished she could stay with me, so I was very eager to play witch hunt. I just finished it, and needless to say I was very satisfied with my ending. IT may have to do with the choices you made in Origins, and WH. But I'm very pleased.

Oh yeah I've finished Witch Hunt 6 times, for 3 wardens. 3 for the ending and 3 for the save after the Xbox 360 fix that finally came out.

She is by far my favorite romance and when I learned of having a Son, I got a bit teary eyed. Not because the child turned out to be a "son" but rather she offered you that much about the child at the very least. And yes if you gift and talk to Lel without wanting a romance but not outright putting her in the friendzone she gets fiesty about Morrigan.

[Bruddajakka]

Leli also tends to be a bit buggy when it comes to romances as well. I've heard that with some female Warden's she thinks that your romancing her even though you've turned her down previously.

[Esbatty]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Leli also tends to be a bit buggy when it comes to romances as well. I've heard that with some female Warden's she thinks that your romancing her even though you've turned her down previously.

You practically have to have Alistair and Zev fingertrapping your female warden to convince her you and her are just friends.

Lel: But all the sweet words you spoke to me.
Zev: She is busy at the moment.
Alistair: Maker, Wynne is watching! Her glare is making me more - OH MY!

[Lord_Anthonior]

Ahh so good to see that its so much easier and bugs free to just care about Morrigan and that's it, I don't bother to get to other friendships except for Sten and Oghren since I have no problem in having some bodyguards at the party and no risk of any bugs or glitches.



For Leliana I never engage into any conversation that might lead to a romance just enough approval so I can get to the point of "something I can help you with?" and that's it, with Zevran I don't have conversations I just give him some gifts so by the time facing Talisen I won't be betrayed, as for alistair hehehe I don't even converse nor give him gifts just wait till the moment of entering Lothering to get rid of him till the very end of the game.



I have the feastday and pranks gifts dlc but I used them to get ahead with Ogrhen, Wynne and Sten to get their personal quests and in wynne's case her special spell.



I see that in that way with relationships, I have no bugs nor problems in witch hunt, Morrigan replies to me and acknowledge the romace and the ritual, as well as during the ritual she mentions her determination because of our relationship instead of mentioning someone else.

[Esbatty]

*contemplates putting up Chapter 7 now*



...



*decides to save it for tomorrow*

[naledgeborn]

Being the time of year that it is I happened to catch Spellbinder('88) on the tube this past week. It would really infuriate me If Morri pulled a Miranda on the Warden. Just a gloomy possibility for us Morrigan fans to ponder on.

[ximena]

What exactly does pulling a "Miranda" mean? XD (Forgive me. I'm not that well-versed in the ME universe. Even though I played ME2. >_>;; )



Haha. I remember in-game Edric once again. Leliana thought she was being romanced after I finished her quest with Edric. Yeah. That got him in some trouble with Morrigan. XD

[naledgeborn]

ximena wrote...

What exactly does pulling a "Miranda" mean? XD (Forgive me. I'm not that well-versed in the ME universe. Even though I played ME2. >_>;; )

Haha. I remember in-game Edric once again. Leliana thought she was being romanced after I finished her quest with Edric. Yeah. That got him in some trouble with Morrigan. XD

This is the Miranda I'm talking about.
http://en.wikipedia....der_(1988_film)

Modifié par naledgeborn, 31 octobre 2010 - 02:55 .

[ximena]

First, *facepalms*.



Second, yes. That would indeed break all our hearts into tiny pieces. But it's really plausible. Coven = Flemeth? D:

[Brockololly]

naledgeborn wrote...

Being the time of year that it is I happened to catch Spellbinder('88) on the tube this past week. It would really infuriate me If Morri pulled a Miranda on the Warden. Just a gloomy possibility for us Morrigan fans to ponder on.

ximena wrote...

What exactly does pulling a "Miranda"  mean? XD (Forgive me. I'm not that well-versed in the ME universe. Even
though I played ME2. >_>;; )

Haha. I remember in-game Edric once again. Leliana thought she was being romanced after I finished her quest with Edric. Yeah. That got him in some trouble with Morrigan. XD

Ha- I was wondering this too- not the ME2 Miranda, but a character from some movie, "Spellbinder" from 1988.*spoilers?*

A quick bit of googling shows that movie is basically about a guy that gets involved with a girl, Miranda, who is seemingly on the run from a coven of Witches who want ther for a human sacrifice but at the end of the movie, it turns out she was just a lure to get the male protagonist think she was all vulnerable, when in fact she was part of the Witch coven all along and in the end lures the male protagonist to his death as the real human sacrifice.

*edit* Ninja'd!


Ha- so yeah, basically, do we think Morrigan is still in league with Flemeth and is just using the Warden? I don't think she's quite that evil, but I could see it that maybe Flemeth is using blood magic or something to maybe subconciously influence Morrigan's actions. Maybe thats why Morrigan has that sense of inevitability and fate and destiny in her actions- almost like things are out of her control?


Ha- and yeah, my Wardens often end up getting accused of "wading through" Morrigan's "swamp" by Leliana- haha:lol:

Oh and here we go- double Morrigan action!











Its quite fun roleplaying Morrigan Cousland- insulting Alistair has never been so much fun!

Modifié par Brockololly, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[ximena]

@Brock



My brain just exploded because of double Morrigan.



....



Yep. It's still on overload.

[Brockololly]

ximena wrote...

@Brock

My brain just exploded because of double Morrigan.

....

Yep. It's still on overload.

Hahaha-

How about Grey Warden Morrigan?





hahahaha:P

[ximena]

Brock. I beg you to take a screenshot of her slaying the AD. XDDD When you get there, that is. Hahaha.



Ohdearlord. I just remembered the equal love mod and went like... "Double morrigan action?" *coughs*

[naledgeborn]

HAHAHAHAHA Brock your the shyt dude.

[Brockololly]

Ha- yeah, the Dark Ritual scene will be especially bizarre haha



It'll be awesome- Morri Cousland will be my warrior and then you've got good ol' mage Morrigan- and both can mercilessly insult Alistair and punt kittens through plate glass windows!



And I will totally get screens of her killing the AD- whenever I get to that

[KnightofPhoenix]

....can Morrigan romance...Morrigan?....

[naledgeborn]

I find it very ironic that she's often accused of being shallow. When in reality she succeeds best at coming across the opposite of her character.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:24 .

[naledgeborn]

dp

Modifié par naledgeborn, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Oh and here we go- double Morrigan action!

HAHAHA!!!

Brock, you really outdid yourself this time

Brockololly wrote...





Its quite fun roleplaying Morrigan Cousland- insulting Alistair has never been so much fun!

Ok, you know what would've been a pure win? Making Alistair, Joree and Daveth also look like Morrigan.

Can you imagine if Morri brought 4 of her sisters back home?

[Master Shiori]

And here's 2 more pics of Morrigan. Not sure if these have been posted yet since this thread goes on quite fast these days.

[Morrigans God son]

Esbatty wrote...

*contemplates putting up Chapter 7 now*

...

*decides to save it for tomorrow*

OMG! You always leave us with cliffhangers! you're evil dood. (Whispers - I love it really.)

DOUBLE MOOOOOOORRIGAN! It's times like this I wish I played on PC. I'd so romance Morrigan as double Morrigan.  It takes two baby!