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[Brockololly]

And here is another DA2 preview from Joystiq- I won't comment on the ho-hum nitty gritty about the game but Darrah all but confirms no Morrigan in DA2, while still teasing more:

"We will import your decisions, in choices like who became king and the  male/female gender of the Warden," Darrah said. "In terms of Witch Hunt decisions, we will be importing them into the game, but Morrigan doesn't have a huge role in Dragon Age 2, so it's more about having them for the future and making sure that we  keep those. We will be maintaining and preserving those decisions, but  we may not have a big reaction to them in DA2." But if you're  one of those people who can't wait to see what happened to Morrigan,  Darrah offers hope: "We're definitely not done with Morrigan."

The little comment on not having a big reaction to Morrigan decisions makes me think we'll end up with an Awakening level of recognition if that.  If the DR is really the biggest choice from Origins, I'm eagerly awaiting to see the what should be the biggest consequence from Origins.
Seriously, if DA3 isn't with  the Warden and Morrigan....blarrrrgh. I just think this Hawke diversion in DA2 is a tremendous waste- you're leaving a great cliffhanger to shrivel and wilt while we're forced to get our Hawke on.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 novembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

Brockololly wrote...

All right, time for epic post!

This picture and the one when she mentions flowers can also grows in...I don't remember what she exactly said, are one of my favorites scenes, the way how Morrigan stares at the distance, the battered eyelashes after walking down the ramp, leaning on the wall and the line "That is a sensible request, I like you" those where the moments that seal my  Warden's fate with her. fiuuu

[Dave of Canada]

Brockololly wrote...

*joystiq / morrigan / hawke thing*

Hawke is a tool of Flemeth, however. Hawke can probably play a large enough importance on the reappearence of Morrigan, that's why we're possibly exploring Hawke first before continuing the Morrigan story.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

*joystiq / morrigan / hawke thing*

Hawke is a tool of Flemeth, however. Hawke can probably play a large enough importance on the reappearence of Morrigan, that's why we're possibly exploring Hawke first before continuing the Morrigan story.

I agree at some point, as far as we know Hawke is only Flemeth's delivery boy, a pawn moved forward to do her bidding with the dalish clan, obviously is too early to tell but what if whatever Hawke is doing for Flemeth effects in some way Morrigan's story and her plans?. As I can tell, Flemeth is capable to forsee the future, she knew about Loghain and Maric ending result, she could have very well know that Hawke was on the path for something important and that she most intervene in a way.

The last thing Morrigan was interested was in books and Mirrors wich were related to the Dalish and ancient Tevinter, also for some reason Morrigan sought fit to take a book from Flemeth's hut but what it was about??? who knows, but she considered to be of importance to the Warden.

What I think is that the pieces are just getting in place in a larger board that is Thedas, how the strikes are going to happen, that's what I want to see.

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 04 novembre 2010 - 01:22 .

[Giggles_Manically]

So for the first time ever I didnt fight Flemeth.

Does anyone here think that will have an effect at all?

[Morrigans God son]

I think we all knew that Morrigan wasn't going to have a huge roll in DA2 anyway. Here's to hoping for the future! With the warden and Morrigan! I bet most of us won't stick it out that long though. xD.

[Dave of Canada]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So for the first time ever I didnt fight Flemeth.
Does anyone here think that will have an effect at all?

I feel horrible afterwards, more so if I'm romancing Morrigan. I doubt it'll have much impact, just like how killing her probably won't impact anything either.

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

*joystiq / morrigan / hawke thing*

Hawke is a tool of Flemeth, however. Hawke can probably play a large enough importance on the reappearence of Morrigan, that's why we're possibly exploring Hawke first before continuing the Morrigan story.

Yeah thats true- seemingly everyone is a tool of Flemeth. I just hope they avoid any situations in DA2 that mess with Morrigan or the Warden - in the sense that the plot forces Hawke to do something which possibly screws over Morrigan or the Warden in a major way. So that maybe Hawke wouldn't see anything wrong with it, but the player, might be able to see the whole picture. Kind of like something if they had Sten leading the Qunari invasion of Kirkwall- as a player you'd be thinking "Oh cool its Sten!" only for Hawke to be forced to kill him or something since they're strangers.

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So for the first time ever I didnt fight Flemeth.
Does anyone here think that will have an effect at all?

I recall Gaider saying not too long ago on the DA2 forum that they would indeed account for how you dealt with Flemeth in Origins in DA2. But they also said they'd account for your love interests in Awakening, so any talk of imported stuff amounting to anything other than emails - I'll believe it when I see it.

[Bruddajakka]

Didn't David say that they look at each DA game as chapters in a book or the like, and each one is interwoven in a large story so just because we move away from a certain character doesn't mean their going to be forgotten in later chapters?

[Jarlof Seoul]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Didn't David say that they look at each DA game as chapters in a book or the like, and each one is interwoven in a large story so just because we move away from a certain character doesn't mean their going to be forgotten in later chapters?

That would be great, as I am primarily sticking with DA because of Morri. The franshise does stand on it own now with the WH closure. I'm looking forward to DA2, but do hope for more Warden/Morri/Morrison, in DA3.

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah I'm personally looking at as a change in perspective that occurs in a lot of novels. With seen an event from one perspective now we're going to see another occur from a different perspective.

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

And here is another DA2 preview from Joystiq- I won't comment on the ho-hum nitty gritty about the game but Darrah all but confirms no Morrigan in DA2, while still teasing more:

"We will import your decisions, in choices like who became king and the  male/female gender of the Warden," Darrah said. "In terms of Witch Hunt decisions, we will be importing them into the game, but Morrigan doesn't have a huge role in Dragon Age 2, so it's more about having them for the future and making sure that we  keep those. We will be maintaining and preserving those decisions, but  we may not have a big reaction to them in DA2." But if you're  one of those people who can't wait to see what happened to Morrigan,  Darrah offers hope: "We're definitely not done with Morrigan."

The little comment on not having a big reaction to Morrigan decisions makes me think we'll end up with an Awakening level of recognition if that.  If the DR is really the biggest choice from Origins, I'm eagerly awaiting to see the what should be the biggest consequence from Origins.
Seriously, if DA3 isn't with  the Warden and Morrigan....blarrrrgh. I just think this Hawke diversion in DA2 is a tremendous waste- you're leaving a great cliffhanger to shrivel and wilt while we're forced to get our Hawke on.

Actually, I find that post quite reassuring for several reasons:

1) They're going out of their way to make sure our choices get recognized and transfered correctly between games.

2) Whenever the transfer is brought up, things like DR and Witch Hunt are used as an example of choices that they want to be recognized. This makes me believe these choices will have a pretty big impact down the road.

3) "We haven't seen the last of Morrigan"
This alone should be quite significant for us all. We know Morrigan won't feature heavily in DA2. We know some other old companions will make an appearance. Yet, instead of focusing on them they keep reassuring us that Morri will be back later. This not only shows that she's popular with the playerbase, but she wil be quite important later on.

The only thing we should worry about right now is whether Morrigan's return in DA3 also means the return of our DA:O Warden? Judging from Morri's words in Witch Hunt, it makes me believe the Grey Wardens still have a part to play in the whole Flemeth-Morrigan story. Also, Gaider has been saying that we might not have seen the last of the Warden.
It's too early to say whether or not this is all just wishful thinking, but I'm being hopeful at this point that we might yet see our Warden(s) again.

[Master Shiori]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Didn't David say that they look at each DA game as chapters in a book or the like, and each one is interwoven in a large story so just because we move away from a certain character doesn't mean their going to be forgotten in later chapters?

Indeed he has.

The way I understood him he said that, unlike Mass Effect, not every game will focus on the same protagonist but, since they're all part of the same world, their actions will influence what happens in future games. He also never said that just because the Warden played an important role in Origins that he'll never again return in a future title. He even admited that there are still things that the Warden could do in future games.

[soundchaser721]

Brockololly wrote...

And here is another DA2 preview from Joystiq- I won't comment on the ho-hum nitty gritty about the game but Darrah all but confirms no Morrigan in DA2, while still teasing more:

"We will import your decisions, in choices like who became king and the  male/female gender of the Warden," Darrah said. "In terms of Witch Hunt decisions, we will be importing them into the game, but Morrigan doesn't have a huge role in Dragon Age 2, so it's more about having them for the future and making sure that we  keep those. We will be maintaining and preserving those decisions, but  we may not have a big reaction to them in DA2." But if you're  one of those people who can't wait to see what happened to Morrigan,  Darrah offers hope: "We're definitely not done with Morrigan."

The little comment on not having a big reaction to Morrigan decisions makes me think we'll end up with an Awakening level of recognition if that.  If the DR is really the biggest choice from Origins, I'm eagerly awaiting to see the what should be the biggest consequence from Origins.
Seriously, if DA3 isn't with  the Warden and Morrigan....blarrrrgh. I just think this Hawke diversion in DA2 is a tremendous waste- you're leaving a great cliffhanger to shrivel and wilt while we're forced to get our Hawke on.

Since I'm an xbox 360 user:( I had to wait about a month and a half to play an un-bugged witch hunt, and in that relatively short amount of time, I began to loose interest in Morrigan's story. I can't see how they're going to drag the hell out of Morrigan's story for years and expect people to give a damn in 2013 or whenever DA3 is released (if its released that is). Shes obviously one of the most significant characters in origins and to push her aside to make room for Hawke just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even if DA2 sets the scene for her return, there will still be a good deal of time before DA3 is released, and add to that the possibility of the warden not returning thus removing any personal interaction with morrigan-it doesn't make sense. The longer they drag out the story, the less interested people will be when it finally gets resolved. In that perspective DA2 is just a big tease.

[ejoslin]

soundchaser721 wrote...

Since I'm an xbox 360 user:( I had to wait about a month and a half to play an un-bugged witch hunt, and in that relatively short amount of time, I began to loose interest in Morrigan's story. I can't see how they're going to drag the hell out of Morrigan's story for years and expect people to give a damn in 2013 or whenever DA3 is released (if its released that is). Shes obviously one of the most significant characters in origins and to push her aside to make room for Hawke just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even if DA2 sets the scene for her return, there will still be a good deal of time before DA3 is released, and add to that the possibility of the warden not returning thus removing any personal interaction with morrigan-it doesn't make sense. The longer they drag out the story, the less interested people will be when it finally gets resolved. In that perspective DA2 is just a big tease.

Not to be TOO harsh, but that may be what they're hoping for :/

Edit: It surprises me that they didn't make the OGB canon at this point.  It should be a major thing, if he exists, but...  gah, if he doesn't...  I don't know.  The writers are far more talented than I am at coming up with things that make sense.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

Actually, I find that post quite reassuring for several reasons:

1) They're going out of their way to make sure our choices get recognized and transfered correctly between games.

Yeah, its nice that they can talk the talk, but can they walk the walk? Every Morrigan choice thats been imported, whether thats been from Origins to Awakening or to Witch Hunt has been critically bugged to hell. Even when we were freaking out here prior to Witch Hunt's release and telling Melo and those people about the whole "STILL_IN_LOVE" nonsense, the big crucial import to have a responsive Morrigan in WH was botched. Now sure, to their credit, they fixed it up. But still- unless they had their heads in the sand or had their QA on vacation, the WH/DR bug should never have happened- they goofed on the biggest plot point of that DLC and until they can get the import process regarding Morrigan correct one of these days, I'm going to remain skeptical as they've given me no reason through their actions to be anything but skeptical. I'm fully expecting to not have any mention of MOrrigan in DA2 at this point- not because a reference here or there aren't in the game, but because I fully expect another buggy ass game. Its a worrisome trend.

Nevermind that they can't get the direct import process right from one game to an expack or a DLC and yet now, all our hopes lie in BioWare being able to keep imported stuff straight from Origins through DA2 and then read that Origins or WH stuff in DA3 or some future game? Again, I'll believe it when I see it- the way they had things scripted/coded in Origins doesn't give me faith that they have some elegant import system figured out- it all seems very sloppy- and that shows in all of the bugs.

Master Shiori wrote...
2) Whenever the transfer is brought up, things like DR and Witch Hunt are used as an example of choices that they want to be recognized. This makes me believe these choices will have a pretty big impact down the road.

I'd like to think that as well, but again, if they were so keen to make the DR a big deal, why haven't they done anything with it except having a bugged reference in WH? Ideally, sure, they're using DA2 to flesh out the world more and hopefully provide context so that Morrigan's eventual return and the consequences of the DR can be fully realized, hopefully in DA3. But again, and this goes for ME as well, I have yet to see them properly do anything with their "no canon" setup thats of any significance or creates any drastically different experience. The OGB and how you've treated Morrigan SHOULD result in vastly different narratives going froward. Whether they will or not- going off of past history- I'm skeptical.

Master Shiori wrote...
3) "We haven't seen the last of Morrigan"
This alone should be quite significant for us all. We know Morrigan won't feature heavily in DA2. We know some other old companions will make an appearance. Yet, instead of focusing on them they keep reassuring us that Morri will be back later. This not only shows that she's popular with the playerbase, but she wil be quite important later on.

The question is, when BioWare keeps spitting this phrase out who do they mean is "we"? Do they mean the player of the Warden PC? I have no doubt they can bring back Morrigan. But as Terra pointed out in his last big post, if BioWare thinks that just bringing back some stock version of Morrigan is going to cut it, they're clueless, I think. As we've said ad nauseum, Morrigan is a kick ass character based on how she reacts to the Warden PC and how that relationship has developed, whether thats romantically, friendly or hostile. You take away that reactivity and you're left with a one size fits all Morrigan, which while that may have been ok at the start of Origins, its not going to fly going forward, especially when your Warden can go off to "face the future together" with her and your PC's possible son with the powers of an Old God.

Sure they can bring Morrigan back and I fully expect they will- its whether they bring the Warden back and the OGB that matters most so long as they're dealing with Morrigan.

Master Shiori wrote...
The only thing we should worry about right now is whether Morrigan's return in DA3 also means the return of our DA:O Warden? Judging from Morri's words in Witch Hunt, it makes me believe the Grey Wardens still have a part to play in the whole Flemeth-Morrigan story. Also, Gaider has been saying that we might not have seen the last of the Warden.
It's too early to say whether or not this is all just wishful thinking, but I'm being hopeful at this point that we might yet see our Warden(s) again.

I'd like to be hopeful on this point- as you've said there and others before, there is definitely room for the Warden to return. There are also potential problems with the Warden returning, probably mostly with the notion that BioWare stays the course with their VO everything route while ditching the silent PC. I'm just hoping we have a somewhat better idea as to the liklihood of the Warden returning by the end of DA2.

ejoslin wrote..

Not to be TOO harsh, but that may be what they're hoping for :/

Edit:
It surprises me that they didn't make the OGB canon at this point.  It  should be a major thing, if he exists, but...  gah, if he doesn't...  I  don't know.  The writers are far more talented than I am at coming up  with things that make sense.

No, I sort of get that feeling too. Let everyone sort of cool to any and everything Origins so that when they bring certain Origins characters, like Morrigan, back in DA3 but in a wholly cookie cutter format, people that gave a damn about them in Origins will be long gone.

I'm not concerned about the writers messing things up- the fact is that its still Laidlaw and Darrah that give the commands to Gaider and the writers- so if Darrah and Laidlaw want no Warden, a stock Morrigan, and a cameo Old God baby thats probably what we'll get going forward:crying:

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 novembre 2010 - 10:00 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Actually, I find that post quite reassuring for several reasons:

1) They're going out of their way to make sure our choices get recognized and transfered correctly between games.

Yeah, its nice that they can talk the talk, but can they walk the walk? Every Morrigan choice thats been imported, whether thats been from Origins to Awakening or to Witch Hunt has been critically bugged to hell. Even when we were freaking out here prior to Witch Hunt's release and telling Melo and those people about the whole "STILL_IN_LOVE" nonsense, the big crucial import to have a responsive Morrigan in WH was botched. Now sure, to their credit, they fixed it up. But still- unless they had their heads in the sand or had their QA on vacation, the WH/DR bug should never have happened- they goofed on the biggest plot point of that DLC and until they can get the import process regarding Morrigan correct one of these days, I'm going to remain skeptical as they've given me no reason through their actions to be anything but skeptical. I'm fully expecting to not have any mention of MOrrigan in DA2 at this point- not because a reference here or there aren't in the game, but because I fully expect another buggy ass game. Its a worrisome trend.

Nevermind that they can't get the direct import process right from one game to an expack or a DLC and yet now, all our hopes lie in BioWare being able to keep imported stuff straight from Origins through DA2 and then read that Origins or WH stuff in DA3 or some future game? Again, I'll believe it when I see it- the way they had things scripted/coded in Origins doesn't give me faith that they have some elegant import system figured out- it all seems very sloppy- and that shows in all of the bugs.

Oh, I'm sure there will be bugs just like in any other Bioware game. However, like you said, they had problems with importing saves since Awakening, so they're aware of the issue and will no doubt try and get it sorted out for DA2. Despite the DR bug in Witch Hunt, that DLC got a lot of the flags right (especially the infamous STILL_IN_LOVE flag). Bioware programmers aren't perfect, but I believe they are capable of learning from their mistakes.

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

2) Whenever the transfer is brought up, things like DR and Witch Hunt are used as an example of choices that they want to be recognized. This makes me believe these choices will have a pretty big impact down the road.

I'd like to think that as well, but again, if they were so keen to make the DR a big deal, why haven't they done anything with it except having a bugged reference in WH? Ideally, sure, they're using DA2 to flesh out the world more and hopefully provide context so that Morrigan's eventual return and the consequences of the DR can be fully realized, hopefully in DA3. But again, and this goes for ME as well, I have yet to see them properly do anything with their "no canon" setup thats of any significance or creates any drastically different experience. The OGB and how you've treated Morrigan SHOULD result in vastly different narratives going froward. Whether they will or not- going off of past history- I'm skeptical.

They will go off past history since that history is recorded in your saves and imported into future games. As for vastly different naraives, that I wouldn't expect. There are too many different endings based on your choices in Origins already. Witch Hunt did a good job of tying them all up with Morrigan (even the Orlesian Warden), but the writers are most likely going to find some kind of "one size fits all" scenario for DA3. That or they'll give us a new protagonist...
The OGB, to me, is one of those choices that most likely won't appear ingame, but will be mentioned in the epilogue.
The reason why these choices don't result in a drastically different experience isn't due to respecting the "no canon" policy or anything, but rather due to limited resurces available for game development and disc size. You need to make one version that fits everyone rather 2 or 3 different versions for each decision.

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
3) "We haven't seen the last of Morrigan"
This alone should be quite significant for us all. We know Morrigan won't feature heavily in DA2. We know some other old companions will make an appearance. Yet, instead of focusing on them they keep reassuring us that Morri will be back later. This not only shows that she's popular with the playerbase, but she wil be quite important later on.

The question is, when BioWare keeps spitting this phrase out who do they mean is "we"? Do they mean the player of the Warden PC? I have no doubt they can bring back Morrigan. But as Terra pointed out in his last big post, if BioWare thinks that just bringing back some stock version of Morrigan is going to cut it, they're clueless, I think. As we've said ad nauseum, Morrigan is a kick ass character based on how she reacts to the Warden PC and how that relationship has developed, whether thats romantically, friendly or hostile. You take away that reactivity and you're left with a one size fits all Morrigan, which while that may have been ok at the start of Origins, its not going to fly going forward, especially when your Warden can go off to "face the future together" with her and your PC's possible son with the powers of an Old God.

Sure they can bring Morrigan back and I fully expect they will- its whether they bring the Warden back and the OGB that matters most so long as they're dealing with Morrigan.

They mean us, the players. And there is no "stock version of Morrigan" since your choices and actions get imported and they are what shapes Morrigan in future games. If you were her lover she'll know it. If you sired the OGB it'll be recognized. If you knifed Morri in Witch Hunt she'll remember it.
Witch Hunt itself is the perfect example of how Bioware will handle Morrigan and her history with the player in the future. No matter which character you imported there Morrigan's initial reaction was rather cold or reserved. Most of her dialogue was the same for everyone, but people had special lines that they could use which reflected their past history with her and resulted in dialogue that was specific to them ("we were friends once", "why did you betray me", "where is the child", "I couldn't let it end like that between us", etc.). I expect they'll do it the same way in DA3, since that will make sure that the majority of Morrigan's lines are used for all players, with a number of lines being specific based on your previous history with her.

The whole "Warden goes into the mirror with Morri and they face the future together" thing is what I find really interesting. Bioware basically boxed themselves into the corner with it. Before Witch Hunt they had the "Warden never found Morrigan" card up their sleeve. Now they tied them up together in such a way that you cannot bring one back without the other. Should Morrigan suddenly return without the Warde, everyone who followed her would be up in arms about it. They'd need to either come up with a good reason for the Warden not being here (which I can't think of, no matter how hard I try) or they have to bring him/her back (for whioch all the groundwork had already been layed down in WH).

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
The only thing we should worry about right now is whether Morrigan's return in DA3 also means the return of our DA:O Warden? Judging from Morri's words in Witch Hunt, it makes me believe the Grey Wardens still have a part to play in the whole Flemeth-Morrigan story. Also, Gaider has been saying that we might not have seen the last of the Warden.
It's too early to say whether or not this is all just wishful thinking, but I'm being hopeful at this point that we might yet see our Warden(s) again.

I'd like to be hopeful on this point- as you've said there and others before, there is definitely room for the Warden to return. There are also potential problems with the Warden returning, probably mostly with the notion that BioWare stays the course with their VO everything route while ditching the silent PC. I'm just hoping we have a somewhat better idea as to the liklihood of the Warden returning by the end of DA2.

They can always have 2 actors voice all the Wardens if they really have to. It's just a problem of finding talented enough people who can pull it off. Ofc, they never said that silent protagonist is gone forever, even though I find it unlikely they'll go back to it in the very next game after adding VO in the previous one.

Brockololly wrote...

ejoslin wrote..

Not to be TOO harsh, but that may be what they're hoping for :/

Edit:
It surprises me that they didn't make the OGB canon at this point.  It  should be a major thing, if he exists, but...  gah, if he doesn't...  I  don't know.  The writers are far more talented than I am at coming up  with things that make sense.

No, I sort of get that feeling too. Let everyone sort of cool to any and everything Origins so that when they bring certain Origins characters, like Morrigan, back in DA3 but in a wholly cookie cutter format, people that gave a damn about them in Origins will be long gone.

I'm not concerned about the writers messing things up- the fact is that its still Laidlaw and Darrah that give the commands to Gaider and the writers- so if Darrah and Laidlaw want no Warden, a stock Morrigan, and a cameo Old God baby thats probably what we'll get going forward:crying:

Maybe, maybe not.

Stock Morrigan is next to impossible without invalidating all the info stored in imported saves. If they wanted Morrigan fans to go away why give them Witch Hunt and why promote the fact that Morrigan will be back? They're not trying to make us gve up on Morri. Quite the opposite. They want people to care about the character and desire more of her. As for the Warden, if they wanted him gone they'd never let him walk into that mirror with Morri nor would they avoid saying that he'll never be back. Gaider and Priestley openly said that there's a chance we'll see the Warden again. Since the Warden is unique for each player you can't just have him represented by a generic npc. You need to let every player create his/her own version of the Warden. That means that the only way he can ever be back is as a playable pc.

We know they're teasing us with the idea of playing as the Warden again. We just don't know if anything will come of it yet.

[Esbatty]

Sorry I'm not often directly quoting any of th epic posts that grace this thread but thats usually because I don't like "fixing" quote blocks when they fudge up on the forum. Anywho, Maybe... just maybe The Wardens are just free of The Taint enough to go to the Black City. I mean surely there is power in that place to still be had. It was the seat of the Maker and is the Heaven of the DA Universe. The Mages that went up had to be after something significant to to Tower of Babel their way up there.



So lets say Flemeth, as Morrigan explains, is driven by a need for power... thats why she is Top Witch of the Wilds. Morrigan is taught by Flemeth to value power above all else because the only thing you can truly count on its yourself IF you betray your emotions. So again lets say Flemeth got a bunch of Mages together to go take Heaven but she sent them first, the Vanguard of their Magic Army, to ursurp the Maker/Gods and take Heaven/The Afterlife for people who didn't do bad sh*t whilst alive so they can essentially be complete bastards without any of the consequence.



That'd be the ultimate trick past death... why fear death if you don't get punished for doing wrong during your life. As the chant of light tries to explain The Golden City was Golden because only the good dead people went up there, essentially it was paradise for those that truly Rested In Peace. Once that initial set of BAMF Mages went up there they "brought sin to heaven" corrupting it and since it seems to be some kind of amplifier of what people bring with them the mages became their corruption - Darkspawn - and brought it back to Thedas.



So Flemeth, theoretically since this is just my crackpot theory, f*cked up... Big Time (cue Monster Squad theme). Now unable to not only get to paradise, her buddies came back all messed up as Darkspawn - probably turning/killing/eating/broodmothering the rest of her followers.



The whole world finds out about the Darkspawn when the first Blight comes down until, someone, somewhere, who knows things, passes on the idea to the warriors from the Anderfels that maybe just maybe they could drink some Darkspawn blood and they can kill the Archdemon permanently. Once that is sorted out the Chantry and Templars arise to control Mages since apparently someone, somewhere, who knows things, passes on the idea that maybe just maybe Mages f*cked up and blackened the golden city. For kicks.



And thus she retreated to wilderness to bide her time building up a new set of BAMF Mages but this time opting for more personal control, since now Mages were being policed and Jedi Academied against their will. This time instead of being fellow Mages that saw themselves as equals to Flemeth, she decided to play Joanie Appleseed and dot all of Thedas with her daughters. Thus the vigorous death-humpage of Chasind Men and lonely travellers. So by travelling from nation to nation spawning daughters to have the numbers they need... not to fight the Darkspawn... but to be ready to support a reborn Old God.



'Cause think about it, why have daughters specifically in the backwoods of every nation, DAUGHTERS... ripe wombs awaiting hot, fresh Grey Warden seed at any moment, in order to capture the essence of the remaining Old Gods. I mean are we really truly, honestly sure some randy novice Grey Warden didn't get it on during the 4th Blight with a Chasind Woman the night before Garrahel (sp?) slew the Archdemon?



Thus Morrigan has the chance to be containing not the first Old God Child but quite possibly the 5th. So Flemeth might be Grandmother to more than Old God Child. Thats even more control, more power. So just because our Warden doesn't condone or do the Dark Ritual doesn't mean an Old God Child isn't already out and about.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So for the first time ever I didnt fight Flemeth.
Does anyone here think that will have an effect at all?

I hope so, but I see it having more of an impact on Morrigan than Flemeth, in terms of reactions or consequences.

@Esbatty. Well Garahel is claimed to have died slaying the Archdemon like intended, so I think we have to trust the lore, that the historians(codexs) and Duncan are correct about it. It is an interesting notion although how Morrigan brings him up specifically when talking about "Grey Warden stamina", maybe Flemeth told her some "stories" about previous wardens from past Blights and there prowess in tent. How she got those stories who knows maybe she has tried to get a Warden to do the Dark Ritual and the first four turned her or her daughters down before the eve of battle.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Esbatty]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So for the first time ever I didnt fight Flemeth.
Does anyone here think that will have an effect at all?

I hope so, but I see it having more of an impact on Morrigan than Flemeth, in terms of reactions or consequences.

@Esbatty. Well Garahel is claimed to have died slaying the Archdemon like intended, so I think we have to trust the lore, that the historians(codexs) and Duncan are correct about it. It is an interesting notion although how Morrigan brings him up specifically when talking about "Grey Warden stamina", maybe Flemeth told her some "stories" about previous wardens from past Blights and there prowess in tent. How she got those stories who knows maybe she has tried to get a Warden to do the Dark Ritual and the first four turned her or her daughters down before the eve of battle.

Thats the thing. He died slaying the Archdemon. It doesn't mean they simultaneously died, just that he died while putting that sucker down. Garahel (thank you, as I'm too lazy to google when I'm on a roll), could simply have succumb to his wounds, or if someone believes something strongly enough, he could of killed the damn Archdemon and just "let go", passed away. Remember it doesn't matter which Grey Warden kills the Archdemon, just that it is slain and it enters the newly concieved child.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Yeah I understand that we can't be 100% sure, but it is super unlikely that he died in any other way outside of slaying the Archdemon; And as powerful as this OGB is considered to be at least to Morrigan. Why hasn't the other OGB(Zazikal?) done anything the last 300-400 years? Your theory isn't impossible, but I would say the chances of Garahel dieing other than by slaying the Archdemon is like <1%.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Regarding Flemeth though this little bit of dialogue intrigues me.

• Flemeth: "Considering what the world has done to me, I have already done more than it deserves.
• Warden: "And what has the world done to you?"
• Flemeth: "That is between the world and me."

I honestly don't know what to think about it. When I hear/read it I get a malicious tone, but I wonder what she has done/claimed or in the process of doing to have done that the world doesn't deserve.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Esbatty]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Regarding Flemeth though this little bit of dialogue intrigues me.

• Flemeth: "Considering what the world has done to me, I have already done more than it deserves.
  
• Warden: "And what has the world done to you?"
  
• Flemeth: "That is between the world and me."

I honestly don't know what to think about it. When I hear/read it I get a malicious tone, but I wonder what she has done/claimed or in the process of doing to have done that the world doesn't deserve.

If she is Andraste, as some surmise, then she got royally screwed over by the Maker who didn't save and the husband who killed her. If she is the Elven god Fen'hrel (sp?) she is a trickester god who the elves warn against dealing with and her Elven people were thrown out of their various lands until most of the Elves forgot about her.

[bl00dsh0t]

I tihnk we have rehashed flemeths age a few times in here and come to the conclusion that she is around 600 years old from the stories told about connobar by both Morrigan and Leliana. Of course the stories could be bs from flemeth, but that morrigan's and lelianas' stories differ and morrigan insists that flemeth retells thetale differently than the official story does give me the feeling it might be real. Thus the flemeth = andraste or flemeth = old god theories seem unlikely.



Still any of them could be the truth of course, they can still easily claim that flemeth had shapeshifted into a younger woman, fallen in love with a bard etc etc but it does not explain how that story is seen as the origin story of her powers and her later bonding with the demon.

[Brockololly]

Oh and if you've listened to the DA2 podcast, they're ME2ing companion armor, so RIP Massive Armor Morrigan: