16183 réponses à ce sujet

[IndigoWolfe]

You know, I was just thinking today; what was Morrigan doing whilst the Warden duked it out with the Varterral?


Morrigan: Mirror mirror, not-really-attached-to-any-wall-within-a-hundred-feet, am I the fairest of them all?

Warden: You don't need a mirror to tell you that, love.

Morrigan: Oh! I- um,  yes ahem; Come no further... (continues into speech given)

[ximena]

To start things up, Morrigan art. XD



by Kanoe-v2

Hmmm. Hard question indeed KoP. Well for Edric, he'd try as much as possible to influence Morrigan from whatever she's doing. But if it does come down to killing her, I don't really think he could. But if it's Morrigan endangering the whole world and there's nothing else to do but kill her and she won't see reason, he'd do it albeit it would be extremely hard. After that event though, Edric would not be the same person again. I could see him vanishing to somewhere, spending the last of his days killing every darkspawn in his path like a grey warden should.

Tackling the other scenario, if Morrigan uses a means which Edric does not see logic in, he'd feel really uncomfortable with it. That would lead him to confronting Morrigan about it to moderate her actions. I pretty much agree with what Brock said regarding this question. I also see the warden being that side of her who looks out for her actions and makes sure that she does not stray. IF the Warden's alignment is more on the good side, that is.

Following Morrigan through the mirror is like a jump of faith for the romancing warden. It certainly has that "oh no this might not end up good" vibe to it. What I like about the warden-morrigan relationship is that through the warden, Morrigan saw other facets of life she hadn't experienced before although she approaches this experience with fear. At this point, I still hope that the Warden has the power to influence her, to make her see that what Flemeth taught her isn't absolute although there may be truths in it.

Brockololly wrote...
The doom and gloom is just so predictable with everything Morrigan that it would be nice if you had at least the possiblity of a partly sunny ending with her.

I agree with Brock. If it's gonna get tragic with Morri, I hope there's at least a partly sunny ending. I don't really see the Morrigan ending being all shiny and happy. And knowing the general feel of the franchise writing, it's not gonna be that simple. Plus, it's the bittersweet endings which make you ponder that stick the most. *coughs*

EDIT: And thanks guys. Glad you like the latest art. Hahaha.

EDIT2:

You know, I was just thinking today; what was Morrigan doing whilst the Warden duked it out with the Varterral?


Morrigan: Mirror mirror, not-really-attached-to-any-wall-within-a-hundred-feet, am I the fairest of them all?

Warden: You don't need a mirror to tell you that, love.

Morrigan: Oh! I- um,  yes ahem; Come no further... (continues into speech given)

*snickers* I potentially have a lot of time in uni today waiting for professors to show up so I'll be bringing my sketchpad to see if I could sketch this up. XD

EDIT3:

So. I'm actually in the process of producing the fanmix for DW which will be printed and made into real packaging 2 times. With extra DW themed art.

And I just wondered, if Morrigan had this sort of OST for her, what would be the songs in it? Just Morrigan. Not Morriganxwarden.

Modifié par ximena, 10 novembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[IndigoWolfe]

ximena wrote...


And I just wondered, if Morrigan had this sort of OST for her, what would be the songs in it? Just Morrigan. Not Morriganxwarden.

Well, my older brother suggested "I Believe In Nothing" by All That Remains.

Now if I could just remember what I thought would be good...

[Brockololly]

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I really hope Morrigan isint too unhappy after Everd finished Witch hunt. She has his kid, he walks up all nice then stabs her, after he laughed in her face and told her off during the DR.
Not a happy Morrigan there.[/quote]

Man, thats just cold. Think of the child, man! But having a normal kid with Morrigan then gut stabbing her is brutal. I just hope there are consequences for the Wardens whatever route they took with Morrigan as there is fantastic potential there.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote..

Absoutely and I really like how Morrigan termed it.
I also like the role reversal, where she gets to make big decisions and we get to influence her for good or ill.

That of course presupposes that the Warden will be in DA3, chances are he'll vanish. And it would be a shame, I see great story potential. [/quote]
Yeah, it would be so great to kind of see Morrigan in the driver's seat and be able to influence her in some way almost as her sidekick in a way. Like Morrigan helped out the Warden defeat the Blight and now the Warden is helping out Morrigan. A little reciprocity.

Ah yes, then we get to wonder  whether or not we'll even play as the Warden again. Bah. A little OT, but from this thread in the DA2 forums a couple days ago (context is basically the Jacob Taylor romance was brought up which led to a discussion on voiced PC's not doing well with romances and then I tried to make the case that a silent PC in the first person view for dialogue, like Fallout, might solve some of the perceived blank stare face from the Warden in Origins:

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
Seriously, the whole Jacob Taylor romance is one of the prime examples of why the  voiced protagonist doesn't always work out so well- really, why voiced  PC romances in general just give off a very creepy vibe. [/quote]

I don't think that's an issue with the voiced protaganist. The lines  would have been much the same had they been unvoiced, I think. It sounds more like an discrepancy between the writer's take on the romance and  what you (or I) might have preferred. That's going to happen in just  about any romance writing.
[/quote]
[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I get that the reaction from the NPC would be scripted one way, voiced PC or  not, but in FemShep's case it was off-putting as she reacted in a way  that you as the player had no clue or control over tone wise and then it led into an action which you also had no control over. Maybe thats ok  with ME and its more detatched narrative style, but I never had to worry about my Warden going rogue and molesting any party members.[/quote]

I suppose, though there I think we're heading into Sylvius-level  arguments about roleplaying and such, who's doing the writing, yadda  yadda yadda. I don't see much of a difference myself, and even in a case like the Jacob romance where the difference might be more pronounced I  still personally like to be able to hear both sides of the conversation.

One can dislike cinematic dialogue if they wish, but I personally see less  value in going half-way down that route-- which we did in Origins.  Either it's cinematic or it's not. There are advantages and  disadvantages in any implementation, but this is the one we've chosen  for DA2 at any rate.

[quote]Slight romance related question- its been mentioned we'll have some sort of romance  icon to denote romance lines, but does that mean we're limited to  basically one type of romance line? Or are there snarky, suave or gruff  romance lines too? [/quote]

It depends on the line in  question. Most often there's a single romance-oriented line, unless  you're in the middle of romance-specific dialogue (as in the entire  dialogue is part of the romance) in which case the regular dialogue  implementation applies.
[/quote]

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Brockololly wrote...
So,  no more silent PCs then since they don't fit with BioWare's master  cinematic vision of making interactive movies complete with Alfred  hitchcock smash zooms on some voiced PC's horribly distorted Uncanny  valley buggy eye face? I see how it is....[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][/quote]

Oh, I don't know that we'd never do a silent PC again. I just doubt we'd  ever couple it with first-person view-- especially not in a party-based  game. We do like the cinematic style, at least currently, and we'll see  where it takes us. Just because we're doing one thing for DA2-- whether  it's human-only PC or companion appearances or voiced protaganist  doesn't mean this is how we will do it for ALL GAME FOREVER. We'll see  how it works, okay?
[/quote]


[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote..
So in that sense, the only scenarios I imagine  where I would kill her without hesitation, all involve some form of
madness which I don't think Morrigan has as of yet. [/quote]

Yeah, unless of course there is some sort of scenario where we're forced into a lose/lose situation by Flemeth or something. I don't know what exactly, but something like Flemeth body snatching Morrigan and having to kill Morrigan that way or something likewise devious and nasty- the sort of choice the Joker in The Dark Knight would force on you. Like I said, the sad/bad/tragic endings come really easily when dealing with Morrigan. I wouldn't mind if they had some sort of BG2 style Bodhi scenario where maybe Morrigan dies or something happens and you have the chance to either leave her or try and rescue her/save her, but maybe at the cost of something else?

Maybe like having Bastila go to the dark side, but with the twist that the only way to redeem her would have meant having to let Malak go or some sort of scenario like that? Or like in ME1 with Bring Down the Sky where you have to save the hostages or kill Balak (?) but you can't do both? Or like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade with Indy forced into doing the ****'s dirty work to get the Holy Grail to save his Dad? Lots of possibilities that could be "emotionally engaging" without smacking you upside the head with doom and gloom necessarily.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote..
I would  prefer moderating and reasoning with her as much as possible. Also, if  the OGB can be raised, I would definitely make sure to raise and  influence him properly. Of course, I won't lie, I have very very high  hopes for him (he is mostly the interests I was talking about). I think  my Cousland can teach him things Morrigan cannot. Things that kid will  need to know if he is going to inherit the world after it changes.
[/quote]
 Oh definitely- the prospect of having the Warden/Morrigan be able to raise and influence the Old God baby is really cool I think, especially if the Old God Baby were to play a role later on in the franchise once he's grown up a bit more. I recall from waaaaay back on a post Gaider made back in 2007 or something talking about  a folow up to Origins, he specifically mentioned a hypothetical scenario where maybe the PC in some future game is only available if you had your prior PC romance a certain character or something. 

Tons of story potential with all of this and it would be a damn shame if they just distilled it down to some basic, generic mush that only involved Morrigan coming back with some new PC in DA3.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 novembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, unless of course there is some sort of scenario where we're forced into a lose/lose situation by Flemeth or something. I don't know what exactly, but something like Flemeth body snatching Morrigan and having to kill Morrigan that way or something likewise devious and nasty- the sort of choice the Joker in The Dark Knight would force on you.

Yea that would be very interesting. And would make Flemeth a much better antagonist, which she probably will be.

Of course they shouldn't make it like the comic book villains "choose between letting your love die or a bus full of children" Green goblin yaddi yadda. It has to be something more subtle and devious.

I think they should keep forcing the idea of love being a weakness more and more.  We don't necessarily have to agree with it, but love, specifcially for Morrigan, should come at a certain price (which some might fight more tolerable than others).

About the OGB.
I can totally see decisions with a big impact involved in rasing him. RPGs are about choices and how one decides to raise an OGB is a huge choice / set of choices.

And it would be somewhat of a cutomization experience. Teach the OGB something and that might reflect on his abilities in the game or a future game. Things like that. Decisions can shape not only the world, but people. And when you shape a being as powerful as the OGB, you are indirectly shaping the world.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 novembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[Giggles_Manically]

@Brock.

Everd was my all evil Warden, who was a complete monster. Arl Howe would wet himself around him, and Everd would think he was an amatuer.



Thats not nearly the worst thing he did:

Nobbed Gheyna, killed the dalish for calling him a flat ears

Kept the Anvil because he thought Branka was the smartest dwarf he had met, and didnt give a crap about anyone who would be turned into one. He would make the whole party golems without a care.

Despoiled the ashes, killed Kolgrim, Killed Genetivi, and the Dragon all because he was a bit cold and it kept him warm. Also he really found it funny to destroy the thing that so many people held precious.



Pretty much he did every single horrible thing in the game.

[Brockololly]

ximena wrote...
After that event though, Edric would not be the same person again. I could see him vanishing to somewhere, spending the last of his days killing every darkspawn in his path like a grey warden should.

Yeah, doing something like that would probably cause my Cousland to just die inside, after having his family murdered and all. The only possible saving grace would be the Old God Baby potentially, as he wouldn't just abandon him.

ximena wrote...
 I also see the warden being that side of her who looks out for her actions and makes sure that she does not stray. IF the Warden's alignment is more on the good side, that is.

Yeah, my Cousland would be a bit of a nicer guy in  trying to sway Morrigan, but my Amell is a bit of a jerk so he might be ok with Morrigan acting a bit more power hungry.

ximena wrote...
Following Morrigan through the mirror is like a jump of faith for the romancing warden. It certainly has that "oh no this might not end up good" vibe to it. What I like about the warden-morrigan relationship is that through the warden, Morrigan saw other facets of life she hadn't experienced before although she approaches this experience with fear. At this point, I still hope that the Warden has the power to influence her, to make her see that what Flemeth taught her isn't absolute although there may be truths in it.

Thats a rather excellent point. Morrigan definitely does grow as a person though depending on how the Warden treated her or conversely, if you were rotten to her and gut stabbed her, I could see her really embracing Flemeth's contempt for humanity and becoming Flemeth 2.0.

But the point on trust and making a leap of faith with Morrigan is excellent. Much like Morrigan had to sort of reluctantly go out of her comfort zone in leaving the Wilds with the Warden and in a sense put her trust in him, its not so different for the Warden having to trust Morrigan to know what she's doing by following her along into the Eluvian.

ximena wrote...
*snickers* I potentially have a lot of time in uni today waiting for professors to show up so I'll be bringing my sketchpad to see if I could sketch this up. XD

haha- I always had hoped that a reunion with Morrigan and the Warden could have had the Warden sneaking up on Morrigan to turn the tables and have him give her the whole "Well, well, what have we here?" line

ximena wrote...
And I just wondered, if Morrigan had this sort of OST for her, what would be the songs in it? Just Morrigan. Not Morriganxwarden.

Hmmmm...Terribly original choice here, () and I don't know....I'd have to think about this...:happy:

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote..

I think they should keep forcing the idea of love being a weakness more and more.  We don't necessarily have to agree with it, but love, specifcially for Morrigan, should come at a certain price (which some might fight more tolerable than others).

Thats true, although conversely isn't part of her romance in showing her thaty love doesn't have to necessarily be a weakness? I could see maybe some sort of choice that would pit Morrigan's survival versus that of the Old God Baby- maybe have it be such that Flemeth gets you in a bind and you have to choose to save Morrigan's life and maybe let Flemeth get away with the OGB or save the OGB and let Flemeth snatch Morrigan? Problem with anything Flemeth/OGB related is that I always think of Rumpelstiltskin.

KnightofPhoenix wrote..
And it would be somewhat of a cutomization experience. Teach the OGB something and that might reflect on his abilities in the game or a future game. Things like that. Decisions can shape not only the world, but people. And when you shape a being as powerful as the OGB, you are indirectly shaping the world.

Yeah, definitely. For me, its through the characters that you care for the world and understand the world, so if you can have a character like the OGB and influence him who will in turn affect the world, thats great.

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Brock.
Everd was my all evil Warden, who was a complete monster.
*snip*
Nobbed Gheyna,

No, no, that act alone of sampling the goods to drive off the mutant Cammen makes Everd a damn patriot, I say and a shining example for all Wardens. If there is one thing that supercedes even the Blight for my Wardens, its the necessity to rid Thedas of Cammen's blighted existence. And if that means my saintly Cousland does one "bad" deed, then thats the burden he'll have to carry- all for sparing the races of Thedas the horror of gazing upon Cammen the Grotesque.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 novembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I loved the line:

That`s what they all say....



When she says:

I CANT BELIEVE I DID THAT!





I never laughed at anything so hard for a while, last time I did it was listening to John Pinet.

[Master Shiori]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is a hard question, so you have been warned. Hypothetically. Imagine that your Warden can in no way accept what Morrigan is doing. Not just the means, the ends in and of themselves. They are directly incompatible with his beliefs / interests/ conscience / what have you. Would your Warden seek to stop Morrigan? And if he does, would he go as far as killing her? What if killing her was the only option?

Honestly? I don't know.

It's the kind of thing that you can't really answer until you see the problem in question. What kind of evil are we talking about? The "conquer the world and commit genocide" kind of evil? The "destroy a town and everyone in it"?
The "open the gates to the Fade and let the demons come to play"?

It would really depend on what Morrigan is trying to acomplish. Also, does she still love the Warden? Does she value his opinion and advice?

Without really knowing where we stand with all thse things I cannot provide a proper answer. It would, however, be a truly hard decision. Maybe even something I'd need some time to process and come to a conclusion about.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alternatively, you agree or can agree with Morrigan's ends, but abhor or dislike the means she is employing. Would turn a blind eye? Would you seek to moderate her? Or would you seek to stop her?

I like to believe she and my Warden re already moderating each other in some ways. Morrigan is opening his eyes to the truth about magic and people who wield it, while the Warden is introducing her to morality, human society and love.
Is it working? I believe so, since the Morrigan after the DR and in Witch Hunt is a different person than the one you first meet in the Wilds.
Will she change completely? Not likely, but she will temper her outlook with the things the Warden has shown her and be a better person as the result.

Do I ever see myself harming Morrigan? Only in the most direst of circumstances and than only if there is apsolutely no other option and she has changed so much there is nothing left of the Morrigan I know and love.

[Morrigans God son]

@Ximena

"How to save a life." Not my type of music.

It all depends on Morrigan's mood. haha

[Jarlof Seoul]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

ximena wrote...


And I just wondered, if Morrigan had this sort of OST for her, what would be the songs in it? Just Morrigan. Not Morriganxwarden.

Well, my older brother suggested "I Believe In Nothing" by All That Remains.

Now if I could just remember what I thought would be good...

Excellent Morri art piece, Ximena!

[Jarlof Seoul]

Morrigans God son wrote...

@Ximena
"How to save a life." Not my type of music.
It all depends on Morrigan's mood. haha

Well put. I agree. Evolved Morri character, especially a strulgging one is more interesting than a stubborn one.

I like the moral ambiguity built into DAO options. For crying out loud, my goody two shoes Warden ended up falling for the mean hot young witch vs former-bard turned quasi nun, and he was freaked out by Morri's version of the Flemeth body snatcher background enough to kill the very nice old witch potential mother in law who saved me at Ostagar...

That is what I call as good an CRPG as it gets!

[Esbatty]

If Morrigan goes too far in what she hopes to accomplish, my Cousland would put her down. He'd attempt to appeal to her to very last, but nevertheless he would probably only allow himself to live long enough to ensure her death. He gave up everything for her and their family and he may not be a good man, he will do the right thing.

[Brockololly]

I think (among the many variables that would factor) with any scenario where your Warden would have to stop/kill Morrigan, would be what about the Old God Baby and how would they factor into this if at all? Or for that matter, what about if the child is just a regular kid and not even the Old God?

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 novembre 2010 - 08:58 .

[Master Shiori]

From what Morrigan said in Witch Hunt I got the impression that the child is indeed normal, but has a soul of an Old God. She says that the child is an innocent.



As for how the OGB factors into the future DA story; I've no idea. Hopefully he will have an impact even if not everyone did the DR.

I just hope they don't reduce him to appearing in epilogue slides...

[Giggles_Manically]

It would be interesting to see but:



The factors that can cause different endings to the OGB are multiple:

Loghain's Kid

Warden's Kid

Alistair's kid (where he can either be a warden/ the king)



No child due to the US, LR, or WC ending.



There are many things to consider and look at, and I doubt that bioware would give one side a whole unique story line. What with NEW players being the main factor, I doubt that Morrigan and the Warden (or any old companion) will matter in the long run.



Mainly because new players wont know or care about Morrigan, or the warden, or what happens in Origins. I think Laidlaw said that new players would just get a quick briefing where they learned:

"BLight and Darkspawn BAD, Grey Wardens GOOD"



I would love to see DA2 or DA3 affected by our choices, but I currently doubt it.

[Master Shiori]

Bioware wants our choices to have an effect on the world so we will hear about them or see the consequences.



As for new players; how did they get into Baldur's Gate 2 or Mass Effect 2? You simply tell the story you want to tell and have short references for people who are new to the franchise. They'll catch on as they play or read the codex entries.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...

Bioware wants our choices to have an effect on the world so we will hear about them or see the consequences.

As for new players; how did they get into Baldur's Gate 2 or Mass Effect 2? You simply tell the story you want to tell and have short references for people who are new to the franchise. They'll catch on as they play or read the codex entries.

Exactly- I 'll believe it when I see it when it comes to choices making a difference, but BioWare has said as much, so they're at least trying to do the whole choice and consequence thing with importing. How it actually turns out is another matter.

ANd you're right about new players- it would simply be the same as any sequel- did people not play God of War 3 or Uncharted 2 or Mass Effect 2 or BG2 just because they didn't play the first games? Of course not- hell, my 1st RPG was BG2 having never played the original and I got into that just fine and later played BG1.

[ejoslin]

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Bioware wants our choices to have an effect on the world so we will hear about them or see the consequences.

As for new players; how did they get into Baldur's Gate 2 or Mass Effect 2? You simply tell the story you want to tell and have short references for people who are new to the franchise. They'll catch on as they play or read the codex entries.

Exactly- I 'll believe it when I see it when it comes to choices making a difference, but BioWare has said as much, so they're at least trying to do the whole choice and consequence thing with importing. How it actually turns out is another matter.

ANd you're right about new players- it would simply be the same as any sequel- did people not play God of War 3 or Uncharted 2 or Mass Effect 2 or BG2 just because they didn't play the first games? Of course not- hell, my 1st RPG was BG2 having never played the original and I got into that just fine and later played BG1.

Well, since Alistair's endings are being accounted for even though he really does end up dead in a good number of games, I'm sure they'll figure out a way to put the OGB in (or not).  It may only be some extra dialog.  You may only hear about what is happening in another land.  I don't know how they'll handle this, tbh.  But I do believe it will be more than just a codex entry.

[blademaster7]

The ME team has alot more pressure to deliver a sequel that recognizes your choices. It's ironic because the RPG decisions are very few compared to Origins.

Maybe the DA team realized that they could never pull it of and they played their "get out of jail" card with Hawke and the Free Marches(so much for Morrigan and Orlais).

[Master Shiori]

ejoslin wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Bioware wants our choices to have an effect on the world so we will hear about them or see the consequences.

As for new players; how did they get into Baldur's Gate 2 or Mass Effect 2? You simply tell the story you want to tell and have short references for people who are new to the franchise. They'll catch on as they play or read the codex entries.

Exactly- I 'll believe it when I see it when it comes to choices making a difference, but BioWare has said as much, so they're at least trying to do the whole choice and consequence thing with importing. How it actually turns out is another matter.

ANd you're right about new players- it would simply be the same as any sequel- did people not play God of War 3 or Uncharted 2 or Mass Effect 2 or BG2 just because they didn't play the first games? Of course not- hell, my 1st RPG was BG2 having never played the original and I got into that just fine and later played BG1.

Well, since Alistair's endings are being accounted for even though he really does end up dead in a good number of games, I'm sure they'll figure out a way to put the OGB in (or not).  It may only be some extra dialog.  You may only hear about what is happening in another land.  I don't know how they'll handle this, tbh.  But I do believe it will be more than just a codex entry.

I sure hope so Ejoslin.

When asked if we'll ever see the consequences of the Dark Ritual, David Gaider just said "wait and see". I'm hoping they'll be more to it than simply a few lines of dialogue or an epilogue slide.

[Master Shiori]

blademaster7 wrote...

The ME team has alot more pressure to deliver a sequel that recognizes your choices. It's ironic because the RPG decisions are very few compared to Origins.

Maybe the DA team realized that they could never pull it of and they played their "get out of jail" card with Hawke and the Free Marches(so much for Morrigan and Orlais).

I get the feeling they're trying to pull off a "Song of Ice and Fire" type of storytelling, where they have several stories that all come together.

DA:O was about the Warden and introduced Morrigan and Flemeth, DA2 is about Hawke's rise to power and Flemeth bringing about the fall of the Chantry. DA3 is going to see the return of Morrigan and possibly the Warden and most likely wrap up the whole "Morrigan and Flemeth" storyline.

It also explains the whole "Dragon Age is about Thedas and not individual characters" thing. Rather than make direct sequals they're telling different stories that are all connected.

[blademaster7]

I hope you're right about the direction of DA3. But, honestly, with the direction they're taking it seems far more likely that DA3 will have a 5-hour campaign and a bunch of multiplayer modes.

Modifié par blademaster7, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:27 .