16183 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Gah now we are starting to sound like Sigrun in here.



Give me a couple of minutes to post some Havelock Vetinari Mage- and Morri love.

That is if fraps decides to work....

[ximena]

Terra_Ex said...



To conclude, yes it's frustrating that the devs say that Morrigan's story isn't done and that she's one of the big players who will change the world yet in the same breath be told that our existing characters (whatever their relationship with her is) might not be a part of it, but what can you do really?

Cry?



No. Srsly. I'll just crawl back to my drawing table now. >_> If they're not willing to continue the warden's story, I'm doing my own thing. Wait. I'm already doing my own thing.



Oh well... I'm giving Hawke a chance as well. But yeah. Dealing with Morrigan and the choices you made as the warden for her wouldn't be the same if you're a different PC. I can live with playing another PC, but yeah. It won't be the same.

[Brockololly]

ximena wrote...
Cry?
 

[Barbarossa2010]

Really sounds like David is getting a bit more defensive up there.  As many times as I've read the same response since DA2 was announced, I guess I can understand to a certain degree.

I wouldn't want to defend the direction this franchise is taking either to the hardcore fan base.  They can defend 'DA is about Thedas' all they want (and they do).  The more they do, the more it's only serving to demonstrate that a larger and larger slice of Bioware's player base is becoming increasingly "shortsighted" and "myopic."  Sounds to me like pre-order sales aren't going so well, or internal market research or telemetry is running contrary to their vision of Dragon Age.
 
On another note, I don't know if they're dumbing down Dragon Age or not , I only hope they are not trying to broaden their market to the point that DA is destined to become something like Fable 3, because that game just plain sucked swamp water.  It's popular, I'll give it that, but wow, it was just 300 miles of mind-numbing pain.  I'm really a lot dumber for having played it.  Maybe that's why I've backslid into multi-player FPSs. 

Anyway, one thing is for certain though, obviously there are a large number of players who think that continuing the story of the Warden trumps the 'get out of jail free' method of making Thedas the main character (you can sense David's frustration in his posts, but he has to march out the party line anyway).  Funny thing though, continuing a deep game story as a beloved character just never seemed like that much of a brain teaser to me.  I suppose there's worse things than being called "shortsighted" and "myopic" by someone (ironically) peddling a product they want people to buy, and  I'm obviously in plentiful and good company.

Just my opinion and just saying...

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 19 novembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Brockololly]

More than anything, I'd hate it if BioWare pulls an Aribeth with Morrigan. NWN has Aribeth in it and she can develop a nice relationship with the PC there. Skip to the 1st expansion and they ditch the PC from NWN. Move to the second expansion and they bring Aribeth back, but you're the PC from the 1st expansion and not NWN. Oh, and Aribeth is now dead but worry not! You can have your new PC romance her.

So I'd just hate to see it in DA3 or something, you're a new PC and come across some "new" version of Morrigan, like a half-dragon Morrigan or some Gandalf like, all powerful "Morrigan the White" or something such that the Morrigan you knew from Origins is drastically changed. But the writer/devs think they're being all clever as that change will make the character a new entity to the new PC, but leave the player wondering how she got that stage and leave you uncovering how things got that way or why the Warden isn't with her- that sort of thing.

I can see them doing something like that, and while it might be in line with what they want to do, I can't say I'd likely be very happy about any scenario where the DR Warden gets tossed under the bus.

[thenemesis77]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Youtube has all the answers doesn't it? Lol.
I really never thought of searching youtube for it.
I'll tell you what I did do though. After killing the stryder (Not sure how you spell it.) I saved it. Then killed her ONCE! Just to see what would happen. Then the guilty music played and I was like...."No..Morrigan!!"

The sad music when you stab her, really has the effect! :'(

Its a Vartarrel (sp?) Its not so bad when you have two mages locking it down and setting it on fire. Otherwise its a pain in the nug-lumps to take down.

It was too easy. I imported an Awakening warden into Witch Hunt. Level 30 or 31? I think. My warden never dies, Unless facing the mother.
I think they should of included more Morrigan references more in Awakening. Wait did we even get any Morrigan references in Awakening?  I can't remember.

Just the epilogue for the warden as far as I know makes any reference to Morrigan, that's how Edric finds Morrigan hahaha 

It should be said that I fought the varterral in easy mode and as a rogue but anyway, the tactic I used was at 90% everybody lesser health and stamina potions and Finn freezing that thing and the dragons. The dog was the only one who had a tough time in that fight, poor bam.

Morrigans God son wrote...
Lord Anthonior, I'm stealing your Morrigan banner, because it's made of pure win. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Sure, its not exactly mine so I don't have any claim so go ahead,

I would like to say, that anyone that likes Morrigan can have it, I made it  and I hope you guys and gals like it.  I plan to make more banners of her and the Warden.  They rock and are the camelot family of dragon age!

[MKDAWUSS]

I've been gone from the forums for a while again. Is there any revelations DA-wise that hasn't made the dedicated go



I know I've done the aforementioned expression on a couple of occasions on Facebook, mostly from the official DA page. Outside of that, I really haven't been keeping up THAT closely with DA2 (the last time I was in the DA2 forums, it looked like an idiot-filled hellhole, dunno if it's changed since then [doubt it], even if it is the leading source of DA2 info).

I take it there's still no news on the sole developing story that Origins left off with...

[Esbatty]

It'd really be an simple matter of WHEN they decide Morrigan would make a reappearance. I mean how long is enough time for Morrigan or the Old God Child to gain enough power to be able to return to Thedas and do what they have to do?



10 years? 20 years? 30 years?



For all we know if a Warden who loved Morrigan, who went into the Mirror with her, could have died over there. That'd easily explain why she'd show up without them. It may lead to a change her plans. Maybe he had her make a deathbed promise to do right by the child? Or maybe he asked her to wreak bloody havoc on Thedas?



Also what if the Warden did come back with Morrigan but they succumbed to the Calling or possibly The Taint? Maybe Morrigan had to kill him to protect the child or herself from a Ghoul Warden? Or The Warden decided to head for the deep roads. She could be in mourning or really fricken upset at his "death".



So I don't hold it against Gaider or Bioware for saying as such that The Warden isn't as integral to the Dragon Age universe as we hype him or her up to be. Although Gaider does say drinking the Blood Potion from Avernus' lab could quite "cure" The Warden of the Taint, but nevertheless a Taint free Warden is still a mortal being who can be killed. Wardens die, its their lot in life. What makes them "Peerless Warriors" is that they know they are gonna die so they fight without fear of what is to come anyway.



Would I love to play my Warden again? Hell yes. Will the Dragon Age Series mean anything less than it does if I don't? No. I enjoy the stories presented to me by Bioware and its writing teams. So I'm not gonna stomp my feet and go "up yours Bioware, WARDEN FOREVER!" if Morrigan returns sans Warden.



I mean with a new Player Character teaming up with a returned Morrigan, here is the chance for better than a codex entry. You can find out about the relationship between Morrigan and the Warden by talking to her ass about it. Besides a Warden-romanced-Morrigan may be quite different than a non-romanced Morrigan. A Morrigan who was loved, or a Motherly Morrigan, would be quite different from a Morrigan who had a friendship or a Morrigan who was heavily disliked by or ran off by the Warden.



Hell it'd be interesting to see a new player character, if Morrigan was a companion, attempting to establish a relationship with her - and much like Samara in ME2 - shooting them down left and right because they're older, they're wiser, and very powerful and have already had the love of their life. So the PC can't have her that way because she already is in live (warden lives) or has been loved (warden US, Warden suffered the calling, warden dead) or she doesn't have time for the PC because of the OGC/has a child by the Warden.

[Morrigans God son]

thenemesis77 wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Youtube has all the answers doesn't it? Lol.
I really never thought of searching youtube for it.
I'll tell you what I did do though. After killing the stryder (Not sure how you spell it.) I saved it. Then killed her ONCE! Just to see what would happen. Then the guilty music played and I was like...."No..Morrigan!!"

The sad music when you stab her, really has the effect! :'(

Its a Vartarrel (sp?) Its not so bad when you have two mages locking it down and setting it on fire. Otherwise its a pain in the nug-lumps to take down.

It was too easy. I imported an Awakening warden into Witch Hunt. Level 30 or 31? I think. My warden never dies, Unless facing the mother.
I think they should of included more Morrigan references more in Awakening. Wait did we even get any Morrigan references in Awakening?  I can't remember.

Just the epilogue for the warden as far as I know makes any reference to Morrigan, that's how Edric finds Morrigan hahaha 

It should be said that I fought the varterral in easy mode and as a rogue but anyway, the tactic I used was at 90% everybody lesser health and stamina potions and Finn freezing that thing and the dragons. The dog was the only one who had a tough time in that fight, poor bam.

Morrigans God son wrote...
Lord Anthonior, I'm stealing your Morrigan banner, because it's made of pure win. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Sure, its not exactly mine so I don't have any claim so go ahead,

I would like to say, that anyone that likes Morrigan can have it, I made it  and I hope you guys and gals like it.  I plan to make more banners of her and the Warden.  They rock and are the camelot family of dragon age!

oh well in that case thanks  hope u make more

[Esbatty]

Chapter 13.2 of In The Land Of Ever is now up.

[MKDAWUSS]

Esbatty wrote...

It'd really be an simple matter of WHEN they decide Morrigan would make a reappearance. I mean how long is enough time for Morrigan or the Old God Child to gain enough power to be able to return to Thedas and do what they have to do?

10 years? 20 years? 30 years?

The further down the line we go from Origins, the more it'll be about the OGB instead of Morrigan. I think that can free some things up, as the OGB has more flexibility than Morrigan, but there may be a feeling of disconnect since we may be talking about a completely new cast here, and it could leave Morrigan being an offstage character, if not a reinvention of character based on time progression.

For all we know if a Warden who loved Morrigan, who went into the Mirror with her, could have died over there. That'd easily explain why she'd show up without them. It may lead to a change her plans. Maybe he had her make a deathbed promise to do right by the child? Or maybe he asked her to wreak bloody havoc on Thedas?

Also what if the Warden did come back with Morrigan but they succumbed to the Calling or possibly The Taint? Maybe Morrigan had to kill him to protect the child or herself from a Ghoul Warden? Or The Warden decided to head for the deep roads. She could be in mourning or really fricken upset at his "death".

And that number of variables can lead to possibly great results, though it may be hard to execute.

So I don't hold it against Gaider or Bioware for saying as such that The Warden isn't as integral to the Dragon Age universe as we hype him or her up to be. Although Gaider does say drinking the Blood Potion from Avernus' lab could quite "cure" The Warden of the Taint, but nevertheless a Taint free Warden is still a mortal being who can be killed. Wardens die, its their lot in life. What makes them "Peerless Warriors" is that they know they are gonna die so they fight without fear of what is to come anyway.

Would I love to play my Warden again? Hell yes. Will the Dragon Age Series mean anything less than it does if I don't? No. I enjoy the stories presented to me by Bioware and its writing teams. So I'm not gonna stomp my feet and go "up yours Bioware, WARDEN FOREVER!" if Morrigan returns sans Warden.

I agree with this assessment, my only gripe was that I'm not sure that DA was ready for this blank slate of characters just yet. There needed to be a bit more continuity and world building first IMO.

I'll also say that I don't mind being a new PC - I was slowly starting to want to experience the DA universe as someone else without discontinuing my DA canon.

I mean with a new Player Character teaming up with a returned Morrigan, here is the chance for better than a codex entry. You can find out about the relationship between Morrigan and the Warden by talking to her ass about it. Besides a Warden-romanced-Morrigan may be quite different than a non-romanced Morrigan. A Morrigan who was loved, or a Motherly Morrigan, would be quite different from a Morrigan who had a friendship or a Morrigan who was heavily disliked by or ran off by the Warden.

Hell it'd be interesting to see a new player character, if Morrigan was a companion, attempting to establish a relationship with her - and much like Samara in ME2 - shooting them down left and right because they're older, they're wiser, and very powerful and have already had the love of their life. So the PC can't have her that way because she already is in live (warden lives) or has been loved (warden US, Warden suffered the calling, warden dead) or she doesn't have time for the PC because of the OGC/has a child by the Warden.

That would be a nice way of handling that. I'd also like to say that that's something that should also be influence-based, and not something that gets spilled out all at once and with little effort. There's also a lot of potential for the relationship between Morrigan and that PC, based on the ages of both, and the gender of the PC.

There's a lot of potential with this sole unfinished storyline coming out of Origins.

[thenemesis77]

My thought is can you build up people up such as the Warden and Morriagan and not have them in the 2nd game? How would you do that and would it work? My thought is having Hawke and Flemeth build them up without them being in the 2nd game.. That may be what they are trying to do. I think Flemeth will use Hawke to try and find the OGB, I have no dought that his rise to power is due to Flemeth helping him get power to find Morrigan and the OGB. Flemeth needs to use him as her tool of war on Morrigan and to get the OGB from her. DA3 will pit Flemeth with Hawke to get the OGB. Flemeth would never think that the Warden would be there as the wall of protection, so here it is............Hawke faces the Warden, this time Flemeth has to deal with a lot more powerful Morrigan. I do think this is the way they are going with this and I have said this from the get go and with WH DLC, it only confirms it. Morrigan will not be the only one that is all powerful, she will help the Warden to be more then what he is too, at this point Flemeth hates the Warden and we know the reason for that. I know David never thought the Warden was the Main good vs all the evil, but people have a funny way of making that real, we all loved the Warden and we seen it from thier eyes, who stopped everything and who was the real HERO. David you might not have had this in the cards but people have a way of taking a story and making it change. The Warden was one of the best good guys/gals in a story and we wanted more of that lore and the lore was with the Warden, not some person we don't know, when you set a game up for a series and as you have said, you want it to change from 1 to 2 to 3........you never take into account for what was felt for the main in your frist game and that is the problem, had you had the Warden in the 2nd game, this would not be near the problem you will face with DA2. To me its such a disconnect from who I felt should carry the game, you don't seem to understand you need a frim lead, all movies, books....any story need a strong lead act and you made the Warden all back of the bus.



I know you don't like to take your story around any lead character, but what makes people get into your book, game or whatnot....is a CHARACTER and to not change that character in every game or book you make, it's a total disconnect from the entire lore you think that it's all about, characters are what people love more then some lore you think takes high stage above the characters that breed your lore.



For you to make some guy like Hawke "the most important man the world neeeded" ......should have put him in from the get go,...thats like taking Mad Maxx out of his movies and putting in snake pliskin....please.

[Giggles_Manically]

I think that Gaider is getting annoyed when people keep saying:



"but but what about Morri and the WARDEN!" like Morrigan can only exist with the warden. I have a Morri existing in every state that she can exist in:

Romanced (No DR and DR)

Friended (Dr and no DR)

Hostile

etc..



I think that what we have to see is that the warden had a large influence on Morrigan no matter what, but that there are so many states she can exist in at the end of the Warden's influence that Gaider just cant write the warden and her.



Would I like to see my Havelock Vetinari warden who romanced her having an effect? Yes.

Would I enjoy carrying the warden over and keep playing him/her? Yes.

Do I think that Morrigan's story and the Warden's influence are going to be that major? No.

Does my enjoyment of DA2 hinge on me seeing the Warden and Morrigan again? No.



Honestly it would not make much sense to carry the warden into newer, and newer situations when they can well die in the end of origins, or decide to bugger off, or go back to the wardens. One of the weakest parts of Awakening and Golems of A was that it forced your warden who may or may not care to be there.



If there is closure I will be happy, but if there is nothing more than rumors and nothing but codex entries I will be unhappy.



I really think that Gaider and CO can write a good story in the DA story without it hinging on Morrigan and the Warden.



Just to close I think that Flemeth is much more of a major player than Morrigan or the Warden. Honestly I dont want to run into my warden again if it means he/she is voiced or redone in some hot rod samurai manner.

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think that what we have to see is that the warden had a large influence on Morrigan no matter what, but that there are so many states she can exist in at the end of the Warden's influence that Gaider just cant write the warden and her.

Which I think is BioWare's biggest problem - they want to give the player choices and have all of them recognized in future installments, which often leads to them having to account for multiple paths that often split far from each other.

f the weakest parts of Awakening and Golems of A was that it forced your warden who may or may not care to be there.

While at the same time, those installments weren't mandatory for your Warden either. On the other hand, the Orlesian Wardens kinda shoehorned many Origins Wardens, many of those taking the US route.

If there is closure I will be happy, but if there is nothing more than rumors and nothing but codex entries I will be unhappy.

Which is what all of us want, but many of us are now increasingly expecting the latter.

I really think that Gaider and CO can write a good story in the DA story without it hinging on Morrigan and the Warden.

Just to close I think that Flemeth is much more of a major player than Morrigan or the Warden. Honestly I dont want to run into my warden again if it means he/she is voiced or redone in some hot rod samurai manner.

I think that the Warden's role in the Morrigan-Flemeth-DR-OGB story is over, but the overall story isn't. I can agree that it can be done without the DR and romance - heck, WH was done like that (while they added to the story, they weren't necessary to it).

While it's likely that Flemeth ends up being a more of the major player because it's the one element the Warden has little control of (unlike Morrigan or himself), to relegate Morrigan to an off-camera/off-stage role after the big building up that was the DR and WH would be generating a big letdown IMO.

[Terra_Ex]

This turned out longer than expected, regardless my thoughts & reponses to the issues and ideas raised follow:

[quote]ximena wrote...
Cry?

No. Srsly. I'll just crawl back to my drawing table now. >_> If they're not willing to continue the warden's story, I'm doing my own thing. Wait. I'm already doing my own thing.

Oh well... I'm giving Hawke a chance as well. But yeah. Dealing with Morrigan and the choices you made as the warden for her wouldn't be the same if you're a different PC. I can live with playing another PC, but yeah. It won't be the same.
[/quote]
I suppose you could do that, myself I'll just shake my head and move on, I see a lot of potential in how to conclude that thread but I suppose we'll see what happens in time. We've made our points across the forums and continue to do so here in this thread, the ball is in BioWare's court, as it always was. Ximena, your work is most definitely appreciated and I also have a huge amount of respect for Brock telling it like it is over on the DA2 boards and for taking the flak that invariably goes along with it, in truth I wouldn't have the patience for it.

Brock's post here to Gaider pretty much hit all the key points for me, it's a shame when one's opinion is somewhat downplayed by way of having enjoyed a particular aspect of a character apparently hindering their view, but there you have it. Like Brock, I don't think it's wise to flip the off switch on a romantic Morrigan and potentially waste a lot of possibilities for further development.
[quote]Brockololly wrote...
I'm not saying its purely a romantic tale at all. What I'm saying is that for myself and many others, that approach to her story is pretty damn well done and to see it continue with the Warden would be most welcome- with the Warden and Morrigan in Eluvian Land or just having that ending mean something and be dealt with in a meaningful way. Compliments to you guys for doing such a damn good job on it.  Surely it can have other dimensions, but I'd just hate to see the romantic angle marginalized or brushed aside without any good rationale. Or to have the Warden get Viconia'd.

Maybe the Warden isn't the PC in the future, but all I'm saying is that given what us players have seen of Morrigan and know of her story/plans thus far, all signs point towards something with the Wardens. It surely doesn't have to be that way, but to tease and lure people along into some future continuity on that note with the epilogues in Origins, Awakening and how Witch Hunt ended, to not follow up on that whenever her story comes to fruition would be, for myself, amazingly disappointing. I wouldn't say its "screwing up" but it would likely suck out much of the interest I'd have in that plot thread if Morrigan showed up to some new PC and was all like "Oh yeah, the father of this kid? Rocks fell. He died." Worst case scenario, doom and gloom, I know, but come on- you guys live off of our tears.
[/quote]

I'll be giving DA2 a chance too as I said I would (perhaps not at the initial release though) I'm not liking some of the changes certainly but aside from commenting on what's been shown thus far there's not much anyone can do.



[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
On another note, I don't know if they're dumbing down Dragon Age or not , I only hope they are not trying to broaden their market to the point that DA is destined to become something like Fable 3, because that game just plain sucked swamp water.  It's popular, I'll give it that, but wow, it was just 300 miles of mind-numbing pain.  I'm really a lot dumber for having played it.  Maybe that's why I've backslid into multi-player FPSs.
[/quote]
Ha, Molynuex hasn't delivered since the days of Populous, I haven't played Fable 3 but if the 2nd title was anything to go by I'm sure I can safely wait a while an pick it up at a fair discount down the line, content that I probably won't be missing much.

In all honesty there's something to be said for simpler games. I'm more receptive to DA2 now than I was at the time of the initial announcements, primarilly due to WH providing stopgap closure, but the difference is one can safely move to numerous other game series and have a thouroughly enjoyable experience without having to play a "will they/won't they" game with the devs approach to storytelling, which imo is currently akin to snakes and ladders in terms of overall direction. I guess in any other series, it's a given that certain plot threads will be picked up and concluded in a manner befitting their significance. Sure the overall writing & character development in other titles might not be quite as high as it was in DA:O but at least you're not risking getting screwed over via the "no-canon" (when it suits) get out clause.


[quote]Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I suppose there's worse things than being called "shortsighted" and "myopic" by someone (ironically) peddling a product they want people to buy, and  I'm obviously in plentiful and good company.
[/quote]
There's some measure of irony when the lead writer employs the term shortsighted on a semi-regular basis when defending the franchise. By definition he must see the larger picture while we only see small portions of it.

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
It'd really be an simple matter of WHEN they decide Morrigan would make a reappearance. I mean how long is enough time for Morrigan or the Old God Child to gain enough power to be able to return to Thedas and do what they have to do?

10 years? 20 years? 30 years?

For all we know if a Warden who loved Morrigan, who went into the Mirror with her, could have died over there. That'd easily explain why she'd show up without them. It may lead to a change her plans. Maybe he had her make a deathbed promise to do right by the child? Or maybe he asked her to wreak bloody havoc on Thedas?

Also what if the Warden did come back with Morrigan but they succumbed to the Calling or possibly The Taint? Maybe Morrigan had to kill him to protect the child or herself from a Ghoul Warden? Or The Warden decided to head for the deep roads. She could be in mourning or really fricken upset at his "death".
[/quote]
Certainly you can tackle it that way, I've mentioned before my dislike of timeskips (one of my primary concerns for DA2) as it assumes too much in my experience and can be sloppily executed.

I agree, these are perfectly acceptable methods to write out the warden. However, I just think back to how Gaider said that we're working towards something. Take the Ascension module for BG2 (the originally planned BG2 ending) which Gaider himself wrote (at least part of it by my recollection). (I'll try to avoid too many BG2 spoilers here) When the **** hits the fan there, ALL involved are back in play, Irenicus, Bodhi, Sarevok, etc. Now, to me that's what it's all about when you have entities like Flemeth who quite clearly are influencing events - you have a couple of games that lead to a major confrontation between various powers and pick and choose your sides based on what came before. Now with a setup like we have now which is supposed to be building towards something, I think it's a smart move to keep the major players in play. Now I think Ascension is an example of how to truly conclude a plot arc, and seemingly so do BioWare so personally I'd rather the warden stays in play, even if he/she isn't currently at the forefront of events.

I'd hope that he is able to see the appeal for players in having their own defined character continue (or have some hope of) to be involved in the Morrigan/Flemeth arc as we move toward its apex.  

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Would I love to play my Warden again? Hell yes. Will the Dragon Age Series mean anything less than it does if I don't? No. I enjoy the stories presented to me by Bioware and its writing teams. So I'm not gonna stomp my feet and go "up yours Bioware, WARDEN FOREVER!" if Morrigan returns sans Warden.
[/quote]
For me, I simply wish for the thread to be resolved in a meaningful way that is inclusive of the player's actions in DA:O and for Morrigan romancers there should be some unique payoff at the end of the road.

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
I mean with a new Player Character teaming up with a returned Morrigan, here is the chance for better than a codex entry. You can find out about the relationship between Morrigan and the Warden by talking to her ass about it. Besides a Warden-romanced-Morrigan may be quite different than a non-romanced Morrigan. A Morrigan who was loved, or a Motherly Morrigan, would be quite different from a Morrigan who had a friendship or a Morrigan who was heavily disliked by or ran off by the Warden.

Hell it'd be interesting to see a new player character, if Morrigan was a companion, attempting to establish a relationship with her - and much like Samara in ME2 - shooting them down left and right because they're older, they're wiser, and very powerful and have already had the love of their life. So the PC can't have her that way because she already is in live (warden lives) or has been loved (warden US, Warden suffered the calling, warden dead) or she doesn't have time for the PC because of the OGC/has a child by the Warden.
[/quote]
Perhaps, there are advantages and drawbacks to both approaches. I'm not convinced Morrigan will be a party member when she returns though. I'd posit as well that Morrigan is something of a closed book so barring a shift in her personality I'm not convinced she's spill her guts to a stranger. In a romance scenario, would the warden's death (either via taint or at Morrigan's hands) cause such a shift in her persona, or would it perhaps harden her, further solidifying her resolve and instilling in her mind that love really is a weakness. It depends on what the mirror world is, should the warden perish there, what effect would that personal tragedy have on her and OGB...

And regarding another PC romancing Morrigan, you'll find that Brock's fears reside in BioWare's past works, NWN which was imo, less than exemplary in its handling of continuity and player romances (I believe Awakening initially was to react to player romances but w/e). But again, these are nice ideas Esbatty which I would support, the crux of the issue is as we've all discussed - it needs to be handed with care.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I'll also say that I don't mind being a new PC - I was slowly starting to want to experience the DA universe as someone else without discontinuing my DA canon.
[/quote]
I have no objections to switching providing BioWare can deal with the Morrigan plotline effectively. Depending on your playthrough the warden may be a direct piece of that plot, whilst you can't base a game solely around that, as you say it shouldn't be ignored as it is a viable endgame state.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I think that Gaider is getting annoyed when people keep saying:

"but but what about Morri and the WARDEN!" like Morrigan can only exist with the warden. I have a Morri existing in every state that she can exist in:
[/quote]
I agree Giggles, (I also think that crunch times and spending a period of his own free time on the DA2 boards would leave anyone with little patience) however imo this will persist until fans get:

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
If there is closure I will be happy, but if there is nothing more than rumors and nothing but codex entries I will be unhappy.
[/quote]
^This.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I think that what we have to see is that the warden had a large influence on Morrigan no matter what, but that there are so many states she can exist in at the end of the Warden's influence that Gaider just cant write the warden and her.
[/quote]
I agree with the former but disagree with the latter.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Would I enjoy carrying the warden over and keep playing him/her? Yes.
[/quote]
It's not 100% essential to me but it would be nice, the ship has sailed with regards having direct continuity (I dunno, did it ever really dock...) it seems as the franchise has gone in its own direction but I'd like to think the possibility exists.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Do I think that Morrigan's story and the Warden's influence are going to be that major? No.
[/quote]
Regarding Morrigan - remains to be seen, Laidlaw says her role is significant, but then again he also said the camera wouldn't be attached to your character... *grumble*

Regarding the Warden - despite dev assurances to the contrary, in my experience BioWare haven't dealt with choice, consequence and resolution in any kind of consistent manner so the net effect of this could be anywhere on the spectrum.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Does my enjoyment of DA2 hinge on me seeing the Warden and Morrigan again? No.
[/quote]
It's tangentially related for some of us when you consider DA2 is setting the stage for future plotlines, Flemeth's & Hawke's roles in DA2 and the assurance that the Morrigan arc will continue/conclude down the line. By not concluding (actually they began a new thread in the closing moments) that in DA:O, players will always have a lingering attachment to said thread and those involved in it, mileage will vary of course depending on the player, how many characters they have, who they romanced, etc. For me, seeing the thread wrapped up in a non-contrived manner is very much a factor that concerns me with regards to my continued enjoyment of the series.

That said, my primary concerns atm relate to alterations made to game mechanics and the direction of DA2 in general. Understand that the shift from a silent PC to a voiced PC with paraphrasing (and I assert that the voiceover defines the character to an extent, immediately distancing me from my avatar) is a significant change and doesn't make the process of transitioning away from "slow burning plot threads" any easier imo.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Honestly it would not make much sense to carry the warden into newer, and newer situations when they can well die in the end of origins, or decide to bugger off, or go back to the wardens. One of the weakest parts of Awakening and Golems of A was that it forced your warden who may or may not care to be there.
[/quote]
Depends on how skillfully they can wrap up the various end game states. As I've said before I believe that with the myriad Origins/Awakening endings they've fallen into the trap of having too many branches and the only common factor is the Awakening epilogue slide, a situation that would have been easily resolved by not having far-reaching epilogue slides in Origins/Awakening and then ending it with "this wasn't the last time he/she was heard of". Whether the Awakening slide or the way WH ends could/will be used to tie in the wardens to the coming change remains to be seen, I think it could, however recent posts have again dampened my enthusiasm for DA overall.


[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I really think that Gaider and CO can write a good story in the DA story without it hinging on Morrigan and the Warden.
[/quote]
Not exactly the issue at hand, I have full confidence in BioWare to create decent stories, that has never been up for debate, however the issues that Brock, myself and others raise stem from the way that continuity is often resolved in a less than stellar manner and plot hammers abound when the writers want to make a specific point, from BioWare's own menagerie - observe the Viconia epilogue/Aribeth romance/companions that were killed in BG1 magically revived for BG2 - it depends on where you want to draw the line really. So as Brock touched upon earlier, if Morrigan is to reappear as a half-dragon uber entity again and is romanceable by another PC, is this a good thing? Were I to apply it to other companions I believe I can guess your answer.

Esbatty has some good ideas on how Morrigan could be handled were Morrigan to return sans warden (which I suspect will be the case) but the sticking point is whether such an elegantly crafted solution will actually be present in the final game. The core issue is how this will be handled, the DA2 board raging "the warden is dead" doesn't help, and looking to past works it could go either way. Again, all I can do is base my assumptions off previous experience, hence my concern regarding this plot thread.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
Just to close I think that Flemeth is much more of a major player than Morrigan or the Warden. Honestly I dont want to run into my warden again if it means he/she is voiced or redone in some hot rod samurai manner.
[/quote]
On Flemeth / Morrigan / Warden - as an individual Flemeth is more important than the warden certainly in terms of the scope of her plot and the fact that her "legend" spans many years and is spread in various forms among many cultures, Morrigan however I can't say how far reaching that plotline could be until DA2 is done with and DA3 roles in. Considering she's been plot-armoured so far I expect it will be significant.

Regarding hot rod samurai gubbins -
Nor do I (it's a price I'd be willing to pay however but I've discussed at length my feelings on BioWare + VO), however I maintain the standpoint that at a minimum, going through the mirror should have some payoff because otherwise it doesn't serve a purpose. You can argue that the mirror itself is the payoff, but if the result of that is a codex entry or a contrived resolution to that thread further down the line then they honestly might as well have left it as it was in Origins. It's like Brock said to Gaider, they did a fantastic job with the Warden's relationship with Morrigan, both romance and friendship, this shouldn't be a marginal factor in how Morrigan acts in future titles.

Despite my lengthy posts on the subject, the bar for my satisfaction with regards to this plot thread is actually surprisingly low and doesn't necessitate the warden being the PC, though the more warden focused a future game is, the better imo as I enjoyed the setup. I'm trying to maintain faith that the devs will deliver instead of defaulting to an "email/codex" method of wrapping it up. With Morrigan you have a trinity of elements that players find enjoyable - a romance, companion & an ongoing plot thread, it's these things that make her such a powerful element in the DA universe but it also means a hell of a lot more work needs to go into her reappearance to avoid a one-size-fits all resolution to one of the most important decisions in DA.

It's difficult to explain really but to some Morrigan & the DR is a significant plot hook for future titles, which Laidlaw and Gaider have both touched upon, it comes down to how open you are to beginning threads with one character and ending them with another. Certainly I can appreciate what the writers might be attempting to acheive in terms of scope however it's ludicrous not to expect some attachment to said threads through our existing PCs and how concluding a plot element to the exclusion of said PC could leave the player bereft of any emotional attachment or interest in it when it concludes.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I think that the Warden's role in the Morrigan-Flemeth-DR-OGB story is over, but the overall story isn't. I can agree that it can be done without the DR and romance - heck, WH was done like that (while they added to the story, they weren't necessary to it).
[/quote]
Aye, you're most likely correct, I'll hope for the best but I have my suspicions as to what we'll get.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
While at the same time, those installments weren't mandatory for your Warden either. On the other hand, the Orlesian Wardens kinda shoehorned many Origins Wardens, many of those taking the US route.
[/quote]
I'd like to think that the events of Awakening & the important DLCs happen canonically to either the origins warden or an Orlesian or there would be little point in their existence. I expect a default outcome would be assumed as the DA import process is haphazard enough without trying to work out whether the events of a specific expansion or DLC took place or not. Regardless it comes back to the point that the epilogues were too divergant, though as I recall they weren't very specific in the timeframes certain events occured within.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 20 novembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Brockololly]

Bah- I'm tempted to respond to all this hulabaloo but several all nighters in a row do not make one's thoughts comprehensible! A massive post shall have to wait for tomorrow!

[Esbatty]

Damn I can never do an epic post, I gotta save my typing fingers for the fan fiction. Although on a Morrigan related note: Her damn figure release date got pushed back to end of dec/early jan. I am rage. I been waiting months for my damn Morrigan figure. MONTHS... at least it gives me a chance to get Loghain and Duncan now too.

[ximena]

Since my mind isn't properly coming up with replies, I'll just post this.







by Sonia Carreras

[Esbatty]

LMFAO... Ritual? What RItual? LOL

[Brockololly]

Super massive epic post time! Bunker down!


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'll speak purely about the romance side of things first since that's what Gaider focused on in his follow up to Brock - BioWare created this expectation themselves, foreshadowing the search for Morrigan in Origins & Awakening and then cementing it in WH. To my mind, it's a fairly logical assumption that for a player who completed the Morrigan romance and got the mirror ending, that the warden would be present in a future title. [/quote]

Precisely Terra. They've created any expectations for some measure of continuity themselves with how they've ended Origins, Awakening and especially Witch Hunt. And so when you have people irked at the annual Hero roster update direction they seem to be headed, they've got no one but themselves to blame.

Its about managing expectations. Look at Christopher Nolan and Batman Begins and the Dark Knight. At the end of Batman Begins, you have the scene where Gordon hands Batman the Joker card. Now in interviews, Nolan said they put that in at the last minute to show how Batman's world was growing  and he now had more on his plate, but that at the time they had no idea if they'd have the Joker in a sequel. And thats the thing- Nolan realized he created and expectation for the Joker in a sequel by throwing that scene into Batman Begins at the last minute. I'm not saying it was done out of fan service, but he realized he created a certain expectation going forward and met that expectation in The Dark Knight.

The thing with DA2 is that you hear it in that one interview with Laidlaw from Gamescom- they damn well know that the Morrigan plot and the DR/OGB plot is the big hook at the end of Origins, much like (and even more so) how the Joker card was at the end of Batman Begins. But instead of meeting the expectations of people they seemingly try to get all clever and do something completely different. But they offer vague assurances that DA2 is simply setting up Morrigan's story in the future.

For myself, its always the most satisfying and rewarding, whether its a book, movie, game, TV show, to have a plot going and have some sort of expectation met- so what you've conjured up in broad strokes in your head is generally where its going. ANd the rewarding part is to have the broad expectations met, yet have the details surprise you in a good way. WIth the DR/OGB/ Morrigan/Warden thing, the broad expectation created by BioWare and reinforced via Awakening and Witch Hunt and the dev posts of Morrigan not being done, was having some continuity with that plot. Maybe it'll happen in the future, but they're pretty much disappointing me with how they're handling it right now and as time goes by, any sense of it being a cliffhanger and plot hook wears away. Its not much of a plot hook when you've had years go by in between games.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
The difference being that Morrigan's thread seems to actually be going somewhere and one of the defined endings (not my dreamed up fantasy scenarios) allows my player character to continue that journey alongside her.[/quote]
Exactly- its expectations yet again. BioWare has created and established an expectation via Witch Hunt and via the choice which the player can make, to have the Warden now a significant part of Morrigan's plan/life. So to simply bring her back and hand wave away the Warden would make it seem like they're just completely missing the point.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
So, to summarise the purely romance related stuff, based on how events progressed in-game, as a player yes I would expect a mirror world warden to be involved in Morrigan's ongoing story in some way. To me, writing off this DA:O player character via codex or similar has the potential to undermine the events of DA:O/WH. Certainly you can pick up any plot thread with a new protagonist/perspective but for me the strongest character development & plotlines comes from reprising a previous character, but since Thedas is the focus I suppose it's a moot point.[/quote]

Thats the thing though. With DA, if they're saying its all about focusing on the big moments and big people on the DA timeline, well news flash BioWare- Via a choice that you afforded my Warden (who is a pretty news worthy person via what he's done and who he is), the Warden has hitched his wagon to Morrigan, who you've said is a pretty significant person in DA, right alongside Flemeth and Hawke. Its like having 2 super historical figures shack up and then only focusing on the one and hand waving the other away. Seriously, the Warden is a historical figure, but just because they did one timeline worthy thing, is there some rule I'm not aware of saying you can only do one historical event per lifetime? Because yeah, my Warden is tagging along with Morrigan now, who by BioWare's own admission is another Big Historical Figure- maybe just maybe, the 2 of them plus Old God Baby could get up to some new Big Historical Event? Because while the Warden might not be the PC again (even though I think thats the best route if we'll be dealing with Morrigan), its all about how BioWare deals with the Warden in relation to Morrigan, and based on how BioWare has handled things in the past, thats where I have my concerns.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I enjoyed the Morrigan romance and am happy to discuss it at length but it hardly commits me to a one-sided interpretation of her character/story, instead it helps form part of a complete picture formed across multiple playthroughs. My conclusions at this point in time are that a future plotline involving Morrigan has more to gain from including the warden than excluding them. What more can I say really, BioWare sets out these bones, the player grabs it and runs with it only to get a chiding somewhere down the line.[/quote]
Exactly- this was the whole point of the "no canon" approach, I thought? That the player determines and shapes how the world and characters of DA evolve. So if the DR Warden that went through the ELuvian is reduced to sitting on the sidelines when Morrigan's big moment comes, I'm sorry but you've just reduced them to the same fate as the US wardens. The romance route is far from the only route Morrigan's story can take, but even if your Warden stabbed her, to just reduce all of that to nothing by not bringing the Warden back, any consequences from those actions are just marginalized and made less impactful by tossing them on a new PC that has no clue what a Morrigan is.

Given the expectations that BioWare has created, its far from myopic to think that there is more interesting stuff going on with the Warden (s) and Morrigan than simply tossing in a new Hero just because thats the easy route. Its no doubt more difficult for them to bring the Warden back, but again, its the expectation they've created and its up to them with their whole "no canon" approach to try and meet the expectations of fans- the expectations that BioWare has put there

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I think BioWare would do well to look at it from the other side of the fence, as Brock has commented on before things look different from down here on the ground than up in the writers tower of omnipotence. These concerns (and this extends to where DA seems to be heading as franchise) don't come out of nowhere, they are based on previous experience with both BioWare and other companies products. [/quote]
Maybe it all makes sense to BioWare, but to us, it doesn't and honestly until we can hopefully see how DA2 connects things together, it looks like DA's direction is that of a chicken running around with its head cut off.

These worst case scenario concerns don't come out of nowhere- while I love the way BG2 and ToB handled continuity, its looking to me that was more of a fluke than anything else now. There is a past history with NWN and even KOTOR to TOR in BioWare setting up expectations or having existing expectations for a direction or plot to explore and simply hand waving it away, via a new PC or time jump. I'll get into that later.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'm sure we've all experienced situations where a particular tv series is cancelled before its time and we're left with an unresolved cliffhanger and no resolution, it's much the same here. Similarly I've played titles where returning characters are essentially just cameos and thus have failed in their purpose. In the case of DA it becomes more problematic due to the greater depth these characters possess and the complete disconnection that can be caused between (assumed) player knowledge and what the current player character should know.[/quote]

*cough* Deadwood!*cough*

The issue is that the DR is a great plot (not just a plot thread) that was introduced at the last minute in Origins and now presumably won't be picked up at all until DA3 at best, which is years away, if it ever even gets made inthe first place. And we have no clue what will go on between now and then which might cause the DR to be forgotten.It happens all too often in TV shows where a great plot is started only to be forgotten about as more plots and mysteries are piled on top. And bringing in cameos of returning characters where they're just there to be a cameo. You're absolutely right about the disconnect though too Terra- it happened in KOTOR2 in a small way, but if you bring back somenody like Morrigan to some new PC while giving the Warden the Revan treatment? That would really irk me.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Regarding the writing, sure the story will probably be decent, but the player has far more invested in an interactive medium than they do a book and each thread has its own set of expectations so there's a thin line that needs to be trodden, especially with the supposed no-canon trappings of DA where the player supposedly shapes events.
[/quote]

I just hope that the writers realize that- video game and RPG writing is vastly different in terms of how it affects the player than passively watching a TV show or reading a book , and as such, a mechanic like a time jump or having a new character interact with an old one or creating a mystery, functions vastly different in a book than a game. They've said that our choices matter- they need to have those choices pay off in meaningful consequences then.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I am giving Hawke a chance, but on the whole I doubt Bioware is going to return to a silent PC again.[/quote]
Yeah, Gaider can say that what they're doing with DA2 is just for the one game, but I'll be damned surprised if they ditch the whole ME style cinematic, voiced PC everything approach anytime soon. Which is a damn shame.

Double Morrigan action intermission!



[quote]Esbatty wrote...
It'd really be an simple matter of WHEN  they decide Morrigan would make a reappearance. I mean how long is  enough time for Morrigan or the Old God Child to gain enough power to be able to return to Thedas and do what they have to do?

10 years? 20 years? 30 years?[/quote]

Thats a really good point. And I'd hate it if they just time jump 20 or 30 years for DA3. Any time you time jump, location jump or jump to a new PC, you're doing so to at least in part marginalize the choices/consequences of the past game. Thats not the sole reason they'd do something like that, but its a definite known result. SO they skip ahead 20 years or something and just look at how ME2 treated things- Shep was gone for what? One year? And everything he did in ME1 was reduced to an email or a couple lines of disposable, interchangeable dialogue.

But time is an issue- and hell, we don't even know how time works where they're going: for all we know its like Inception and 5 minutes in the real world is equal to one hour in Mirror World. Given how it seems as if DA2 is setting up things to really hit the fan at the end of Hawke's ten years with the Chantry in ruins and the world on the brink of war, I don't think they'd time jump to much- for all we know they'd do something like DA2 again in DA3 with the story starting at some point during the events of DA2, just from a different POV.

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
For all we know if a Warden who loved Morrigan, who went into the Mirror  with her, could have died over there. That'd easily explain why she'd  show up without them. It may lead to a change her plans. Maybe he had  her make a deathbed promise to do right by the child? Or maybe he asked  her to wreak bloody havoc on Thedas?[/quote]
Ok, here is where I start to have issues. What was the point of perpetuating the myth of choice throughout a game an expansion pack and a DLC if you're just going to off screen kill off the PC? That would precisely be Viconia BS all over again. Now to be clear, I have no problem with a tragic ending like Viconia's. And depending on how it was handled I could be ok with a tragic ending for the Warden or Morrigan. This is where I think its waaay different than a movie or book- is that if you're going to heap tragic crap on the player or to character's which the player has formed some measure of "emotional engagement" you NEED to show that scene and not shove it down into an epilogue slide or hide it in dialogue. Thats my problem with how Viconia's death was handled- they shoved it in an epilogue slide as an afterthought. 

If the Warden were to die in MIrror World or something, I'd want to have an actual scene in game showing it and not have to try and fish that information out of Morrigan with some new PC- that wouldn't be some intriguing mystery at that point like you maybe could play it out in a book; hiding the fate of the Warden while bringing Morrigan back into the picture would be Revan 2.0 and just ****** me off royally.


[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Also what if the Warden did  come back with Morrigan but they succumbed to the Calling or possibly  The Taint? Maybe Morrigan had to kill him to protect the child or  herself from a Ghoul Warden? Or The Warden decided to head for the deep  roads. She could be in mourning or really fricken upset at his "death".[/quote]
Again, it comes down to player choice, especially when you have the PC doing things or having things done to them without the player either seeing them happen or being totally out of control and being told these events second hand. If the Warden is going to turn into a ghoul and have Morrigan kill him, I want to see that in game. If my Warden succumbs to the Taint or needs to go on his Calling, give him an epic death scene like the US had (and maybe play some NIN during the Calling too^_^).

Its about SHOWING and not simply TELLING, especially if you're doing something life and death.

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
So I don't hold it against Gaider or Bioware for saying as such that The  Warden isn't as integral to the Dragon Age universe as we hype him or  her up to be. Although Gaider does say drinking the Blood Potion from  Avernus' lab could quite "cure" The Warden of the Taint, but  nevertheless a Taint free Warden is still a mortal being who can be  killed. Wardens die, its their lot in life. What makes them "Peerless  Warriors" is that they know they are gonna die so they fight without  fear of what is to come anyway.[/quote]
Sure, I get that, but as we've said in the past, Witch Hunt creates the expecatation that the Warden return or that whatever "change" is to come heavily implicates the involvement of all the Grey Wardens. And I think there is still a hell of a lot more interesting things to explore with the Wardens overall, and to just skip that to move on to some new Epic Hero of Thedas would seem premature.

This is somewhat my issue with the timeline approach to DA if its just going to be a new PC each game: Instead of getting a really in depth look at one facet of Thedas over the course of maybe a couple games and then moving on to somebody new, the whole affair will feel like we're just getting our feet wet and then moving on before we can really just jump in and get immersed in the whole thing. So instead of sitting down and having a filling 7 course meal, we end up having a bunch of quick appetizers and are left constantly thinking we're missing out on the main course. There is still a hell of a lot of stuff I'd ike to learn about the Wardens, not just Weisshaupt and such but the nature of the Taint too and Avernus (it reminds me much of the Bhaalspawn in BG2 really). You can approach the Warden stuff in a different nature than just "Warden=killing darkspawn" and it would be something new and interesting. To just limit characters and things to such a one dimensional role is boring and makes the world less interesting when you don't put any wrinkles into it.

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Would I love to play my Warden  again? Hell yes. Will the Dragon Age Series mean anything less than it  does if I don't? No. I enjoy the stories presented to me by Bioware and  its writing teams. So I'm not gonna stomp my feet and go "up yours  Bioware, WARDEN FOREVER!" if Morrigan returns sans Warden.[/quote]
Sure, I'm not saying they need the Warden in every game or anything. But they need to offer some closure before packing up their Warden bags and moving on to Hawke. Or at least leave a note on the refrigerator saying that they'll be coming back to the Warden.

Take Baldur's Gate 2 and Throne of Bhaal for instance- the ending cutscene and such from ToB wraps things up wonderfully IMO and hints at more adventures to come all the while as the player, you don't necessarily feel the need to continue on as the Bhaalspawn because they wrapped up every loose end involving the PC and any new story would be something truly new. Thats not the case with DA, as you introduce the DR/OGB plot right at the end, and then further allow the player the choice to have that new plot be their focus, by searching for Morrigan or by following her into the Eluvian. Surely not everyone does that, but again, its a choice which BioWare afforded the player and to not follow through on that isn't good storytelling IMO.

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
I mean with a new Player Character teaming up with a returned Morrigan, here  is the chance for better than a codex entry. You can find out about the  relationship between Morrigan and the Warden by talking to her ass about it. Besides a Warden-romanced-Morrigan may be quite different than a  non-romanced Morrigan. A Morrigan who was loved, or a Motherly Morrigan, would be quite different from a Morrigan who had a friendship or a  Morrigan who was heavily disliked by or ran off by the Warden.[/quote]
Well, sure, Morrigan's realtionship with the Warden whether romantic or hostile could certainly affect her and how she interacts with new characters. But if they suddenly had Morrigan some chatterbox reminiscing about her dead Warden lover, that wouldn't seem very MOrrigan like to me. MOrrigan doesn't say squat to anyone about the Warden's relationship with the Warden in Origins and to suddenly have some new PC break through to Morrigan again like the Warden did and have Morrigan tell all about he rprior realtionship would seem forced and contrived as a way to tell about what happened without showing it. Maybe it could work, but again, I can't imagine many ways where I wouldn't be left thinking that its a cop out for not just showing all that prior history with the Warden.

I'd be fine with Morrigan's characetr developing further one way or the other, more open or more shut down, but to simply have that development occur off screen or as the result of some time jump just seems kind of cheap. What makes Morrigan's character development in Origins so great is that you can see it happen gradually and naturally. To start DA3 with some new PC who runs into cheery Morrigan or misanthropic evil Morrigan would be more confusing than anything and not in a "Oh, what a curious mystery!" sort of way but more of a "Seriously? WTF?" kind of way. Again its about showing and not telling- I want to see Morrigan's character development unfold naturally, not have it lumped together as a result of some time jump or something.

[quote]Esbatty wrote...
Hell it'd be interesting to see a new player character, if Morrigan was a  companion, attempting to establish a relationship with her - and much  like Samara in ME2 - shooting them down left and right because they're  older, they're wiser, and very powerful and have already had the love of their life. So the PC can't have her that way because she already is in live (warden lives) or has been loved (warden US, Warden suffered the  calling, warden dead) or she doesn't have time for the PC because of the OGC/has a child by the Warden.[/quote]
That could be cool- but again, they'd need to show why the Warden wasn't there with Morrigan when they've established the expectation that the Warden can go with Morrigan to see his OGB and face the future together with Morrigan.

I think I've said it before, but if Morrigan went on her own in DA3 or something it would be ok, if they treated it how the romance is described in the ToB epilogue between the Bhaalspawn and Jaheira:

[quote]
Theirs was an unshakeable union and while duty or adventure might separate them for even years at a time, they always returned to one another....After all, she and (Protagonist) had literally been to the hells and back, and when the gods themselves couldn't separate the two, what were simple months and miles going to do? She lived long and well. Not always with (Protagonist), but never truly apart.[/quote]

If they could have solo Morrigan get that point across in some way, that would be cool. But still, they'd need one hell of an explanation as to why the Warden wasn't there and simply having him killed off, would just seem amazingly cheap- I can't see anyway how it wouldn't be.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
The further down the line we go from Origins, the more it'll be about the  OGB instead of Morrigan. I think that can free some things up, as the  OGB has more flexibility than Morrigan, but there may be a feeling of  disconnect since we may be talking about a completely new cast here, and it could leave Morrigan being an offstage character, if not a  reinvention of character based on time progression.[/quote]

The problem with the OGB being the big player in the future is that A.) it would just be weird if Morrigan was your mom in game, and B.) the OGB is non-canon, and if they devote that much to having the OGB play a meaningful role, then why not the DR Warden? I'd love to see the OGB play a big role in the future, but I have my doubts.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
I agree with this assessment, my only gripe was that I'm not sure that  DA was ready for this blank slate of characters just yet. There needed  to be a bit more continuity and world building first IMO.

I'll  also say that I don't mind being a new PC - I was slowly starting to  want to experience the DA universe as someone else without discontinuing my DA canon.[/quote]
Well, I think there are ways to keep the same PC going while also exploring new areas of DA and doing different things. Look at BG2- they uprooted the Bhaalspawn from Baldur's Gate and you were able to see totally new areas. I don't mind a new PC either- they just need to do a better job resolving other PC heavy plots like the DR before doing so.

[quote]thenemesis77 wrote..
I know you don't like to take your story  around any lead character, but what makes people get into your book,  game or whatnot....is a CHARACTER and to not change that character in  every game or book you make, it's a total disconnect from the entire  lore you think that it's all about, characters are what people love more then some lore you think takes high stage above the characters that  breed your lore.
[/quote]

I think its fine to switch PC's, but you have to do it when the story is DONE for that PC. FOr many, it might be done. But I'll be damned if the DR/OGB isn't a Warden-centric plot based on how its presented and how you're given the choice to continually follow Morrigan in Origins, Awakening and WItch Hunt. You don't allow the player that choice multiple times and then pull the rug out from underneath them and say that story isn't meant for the Warden and not expect people invested in that story to be pissed off.

Its the characters- thats what people care about and how your player character interacts with those characters. you toss that out the window and you toss out a good chunk of my interest.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Brock's post here to Gaider pretty much hit all the key points for me, it's a shame when one's opinion is
somewhat downplayed by way of having enjoyed a particular aspect of a  character apparently hindering their view, but there you have it. Like  Brock, I don't think it's wise to flip the off switch on a romantic  Morrigan and potentially waste a lot of possibilities for further  development.[/quote]

Yeah, I get the feeling that we'll be stuck with a cookie cutter Morrigan in DA3 or whenever with a new PC. Meh. Super meh. Its all so myopic, to build up and perpetuate the romance plot with her to more or less ****** it all away with a new PC during the climax of her story. Maybe it won't play out that way, but it sure seems thats the direction DA is headed.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'll be  giving DA2 a chance too as I said I would (perhaps not at the initial  release though) I'm not liking some of the changes certainly but aside  from commenting on what's been shown thus far there's not much anyone
can do.[/quote]
Yeah, I'll likely give DA2 a chance eventually. GIven Deus Ex: Human Revolution shaping up nicely and coming out right around the same time and Shogun 2 coming out the week after DA2, there is no rush to pick it up seeing as the main story pull for me from Origins (Morrigan/Warden) isn't there and the actual gameplay and design changes being made are underwhelming to say the least.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Ha, Molynuex hasn't delivered since the days of Populous, I haven't played  Fable 3 but if the 2nd title was anything to go by I'm sure I can safely wait a while an pick it up at a fair discount down the line, content  that I probably won't be missing much.[/quote]
I played abit of Fable 3 at a friend's and its the definition of streamlining something to such a degree that it makes things more tedious and cumbersome. Horribly disappointing I thought, and I had zero expectations for it.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I guess in any other series,  it's a given that certain plot threads will be picked up and concluded  in a manner befitting their significance. Sure the overall writing & character development in other titles might not be quite as high as it  was in DA:O but at least you're not risking getting screwed over via the "no-canon" (when it suits) get out clause.[/quote]
Exactly.

As I said earlier, its about creating expectations and being able to live up to them. If DA2 is genuinely setting up things for some bigger and better Morrigan story, then fantastic. But given all the other changes and such occuring with DA2 combined with the turnover at the top of DA from Origins to DA2, I'm skeptical as hell that Morrigan's story will conclude in a way that doesn't leave us going "WTF?" if its ever finished at all.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
There's some measure of irony when the lead writer employs the term  shortsighted on a semi-regular basis when defending the franchise. By  definition he must see the larger picture while we only see small
portions of it.[/quote]
Thats sort of the problem as I've mentioned. Maybe they can see the whole picture being up in their little Ivory Tower, but for us players, its vague as hell where this franchise is going, both in terms of story and even in terms of design. An identity was created in Origins for DA and it sure would seem they're doing their best to try and reboot things. Maybe it makes sense to them, but it looks a bit like a potential clusterf*ck of enormous proportions from where I'm looking.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
However, I just  think back to how Gaider said that we're working towards something. Take the Ascension module for BG2 (the originally planned BG2 ending) which  Gaider himself wrote (at least part of it by my recollection). (I'll try to avoid too many BG2 spoilers here) When the **** hits the fan there,  ALL involved are back in play, Irenicus, Bodhi, Sarevok, etc. Now, to me that's what it's all about when you have entities like Flemeth who  quite clearly are influencing events - you have a couple of games that  lead to a major confrontation between various powers and pick and choose your sides based on what came before. Now with a setup like we have now which is supposed to be building towards something, I think it's a  smart move to keep the major players in play. Now I think Ascension is  an example of how to truly conclude a plot arc, and seemingly so do  BioWare so personally I'd rather the warden stays in play, even if  he/she isn't currently at the forefront of events.[/quote]

Absolutely, thats a really good example. Although its perhaps telling that while Ascension was written by Gaider, it wasn't officially BioWare sanctioned, was it? So while it was great, it wasn't the ending we got in vanilla ToB. Much like the DR scene in Origins was bungled and needed an Aimo comic to fix it up. That has me concerned that whatever the writers may want to do with Morrigan might get streamlined or hot rod samurai'd up such that what we end up with in DA3 or whatever is just some compromise of ideas mushed together to get the the game out the door.

But Ascension is the perfect example, like you said, of providing a great sense of closure and satisfaction when ending a game- something that if you do the DR or are involved with Morrigan, is sorely lacking.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I'd hope that  he is able to see the appeal for players in having their own defined  character continue (or have some hope of) to be involved in the  Morrigan/Flemeth arc as we move toward its apex. [/quote]
Its not Gaider that I'm necessarily worried about, its everything else forcing DA into more of a mainstream approach. We'll see I guess.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Perhaps, there are  advantages and drawbacks to both approaches. I'm not convinced Morrigan  will be a party member when she returns though. I'd posit as well that  Morrigan is something of a closed book so barring a shift in her  personality I'm not convinced she's spill her guts to a stranger. In a  romance scenario, would the warden's death (either via taint or at  Morrigan's hands) cause such a shift in her persona, or would it perhaps harden her, further solidifying her resolve and instilling in her mind  that love really is a weakness. It depends on what the mirror world is,  should the warden perish there, what effect would that personal tragedy  have on her and OGB... [/quote]
Thats a good point- the Warden dying would likely harden Morrigan's outward personality and perhaps only serve to drive her towards a FLemeth like existence of truly viewing love as a weakness. I just have a hard time imagining Morrigan opening up to some new PC- even then the prospect of her doing so would feel cheap after having already done so as the Warden, even if romance wasn't involved.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
And regarding another PC romancing  Morrigan, you'll find that Brock's fears reside in BioWare's past works, NWN which was imo, less than exemplary in its handling of continuity  and player romances (I believe Awakening initially was to react to player romances but w/e). [/quote]

Yeah, look no further than NWN and Horde of the Underdark with Aribeth. Now I haven't played through HotU and only played a bit of NWN, but my understanding of it is that in NWN the PC can have some sort of meaningful relationship with Aribeth and can make a choice to have her live or die at the end; I don't know that its a traditional romance necessarily, but pretty close. Then you go to HotU and you're a new PC and find Aribeth again, and despite your choice, she's dead/ a ghost. But worry not! Because you can have this new PC romance Aribeth, despite having the original NWN PC having "vanished!" I'll punt a kitten through a plate glass window if they pull some of that same **** with Morrigan in DA3. Think of the kittens, BioWare.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I have no objections to switching providing BioWare can deal with the Morrigan plotline effectively. Depending on  your playthrough the warden may be a direct piece of that plot, whilst  you can't base a game solely around that, as you say it shouldn't be ignored as it is a viable endgame state.[/quote]

Exactly- expectations BioWare- you created them, so its up to you to fulfill them.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
I agree Giggles, (I also think that crunch times and  spending a period of his own free time on the DA2 boards would leave  anyone with little patience) however imo this will persist until fans  get:

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
If there is closure I will be happy, but if there is nothing more than rumors and nothing but codex entries I will be unhappy.
[/quote]
^This.[/quote]

Heh- Oh the irony! Flemeth agrees! (from one of the leaked videos)

We need an ending!

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
I think that what we have to see is that the warden had a large influence on Morrigan no matter what, but that there are so many states she can  exist in at the end of the Warden's influence that Gaider just cant  write the warden and her.
[/quote]
See thats the thing- I don't agree that they can't write the Warden and Morrigan- they did it in Witch Hunt. Is it more difficult than sticking in some new PC? Sure, but they've created this situation and established expectations.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Regarding Morrigan - remains to be seen, Laidlaw says her role is significant,  but then again he also said the camera wouldn't be attached to your  character... *grumble*

Regarding the Warden - despite dev  assurances to the contrary, in my experience BioWare haven't dealt with  choice, consequence and resolution in any kind of consistent manner so  the net effect of this could be anywhere on the spectrum.[/quote]

Haha- oh yeah, that whole "Tactical Camera 2.0" bit. Yeah, despite assuarances how Morrigan's story isn't over from Gaider, Laidlaw and Darrah on multiple occassions and how its seemingly one of the most frequently asked questions, I'll believe it when I see it. After all, Laidlaw said that " I have always  felt that the key to tactical play was actually freeing your camera from the character you're controlling to issue precise orders, which is what we're tuning now."
Hmm... I guess DA2 isn't as tactical then, eh?


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
It's tangentially related for some of us when you consider DA2 is setting  the stage for future plotlines, Flemeth's & Hawke's roles in DA2 and the assurance that the Morrigan arc will continue/conclude down the
line. By not concluding (actually they began a new thread in the closing moments) that in DA:O, players will always have a lingering attachment  to said thread and those involved in it, mileage will vary of course  depending on the player, how many characters they have, who they  romanced, etc. For me, seeing the thread wrapped up in a non-contrived  manner is very much a factor that concerns me with regards to my  continued enjoyment of the series. [/quote]

Yup- if I end up getting DA2 its mostly to see how everything relates to Morrigan/Warden and the "change." Maybe there iwll be something in DA2 that catches my attention, but for right now, I honestly don't give a rat's ass about Hawke and the inclusion of player VO all but guarantees that no matter how great he/she might be, I won't get as attached to Hawke as the Warden. Thats just a fact, unless they radically have Hawke better done than any other voiced PC I've played before.

If they had wrapped up Morrigan's involvement with the Warden in an expansion pack or something, I'd be fine with moving on to Hawke. But as it stands, my primary interest in DA2 stems from hopefully seeing how it affects whatever story Morrigan/OGB/Warden are involved in in the future.


[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
That said, my primary  concerns atm relate to alterations made to game mechanics and the  direction of DA2 in general. Understand that the shift from a silent PC  to a voiced PC with paraphrasing (and I assert that the voiceover  defines the character to an extent, immediately distancing me from my  avatar) is a significant change and doesn't make the process of  transitioning away from "slow burning plot threads" any easier imo.[/quote]

Absolutely Terra. Like I said, I'll be surprised if I get as attached to Hawke as any of my Wardens. Wth Shep, I end up not caring too much- the voice just puts another barrier between the PC and the player, and surely the framed narrative won't help things much in this regard either. Its one of those things you can't quantify with telemetry or something necessarily, but its definitely the case. And for me, it affects replay value of a game- having the same Shepard voice come out of multiple supposedly "different" Shepard's kills any sense of immersion for me and in terms of interacting with other characters in game, it doesn't feel like its my PC interacting, but rather that Shep is just another NPC and you're just vaguely nudging them in a certain direction. That approach doesn't engender much "emotional engagement" beyond what you might get from a movie- and I think that "cinematic" approach really squanders the strength and uniqueness you can get in a video game as compared to other forms of media.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Whether the  Awakening slide or the way WH ends could/will be used to tie in the wardens to the coming change remains to be seen, I think it could,  however recent posts have again dampened my enthusiasm for DA overall.[/quote]
Yeah, they seemingly have left things open for the Warden, but then you read Gaider's posts and much like the posts he wrote in this thread prior to DA2, its a bit of "Yeah we could do that, but get over it" type deal. So yeah, I'm not expecting much out of "emotionally engaging" stories and characters in DA's future if we're forced into the ME style cinematic approach, except even then adopting the NWN style lack of continuity. To me, that sounds like a recipe for disinterest and detachment and moving on, just like I did when NWN came out.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Not exactly the issue at hand, I have full confidence in BioWare to create  decent stories, that has never been up for debate, however the issues  that Brock, myself and others raise stem from the way that continuity is often resolved in a less than stellar manner and plot hammers abound  when the writers want to make a specific point, from BioWare's own  menagerie - observe the Viconia epilogue/Aribeth romance/companions that were killed in BG1 magically revived for BG2 - it depends on where you  want to draw the line really. So as Brock touched upon earlier, if  Morrigan is to reappear as a half-dragon uber entity again and is  romanceable by another PC, is this a good thing? Were I to apply it to  other companions I believe I can guess your answer.[/quote]

Rigt- BioWare has made some fantastic stories in the past and are perfectly capable of doing so in the future. Thats not in question. The issue in a game is how you interact with those stories- thats where the voiced PC and fewer choices and consequences comes into the picture. And then how existing unresolved plots and continuity are dealt with.

As I said earlier, the continuity from BG2 to ToB was great. But looking back it seems like the outlier. NWN had a revolving door or PC's with next to no continuity, and when they did bring old characters back they were shoved in with a new PC, giving the NWN PC the Revan treatment. Then with KOTOR to TOR even, you have a massive time jump, portraying the fate of Revan and the Exile as some mystery, taking it out of the player's hands. With ME1 to ME2, your big choices and consequences are washed away by killing off Shep, plus a little time jump and freakin' emails. So as much as I have faith in BioWare to craft a good story, they're far from infallible when it comes to being able to continue a plot  and meet expectations across multiple games.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
Esbatty has  some good ideas on how Morrigan could be handled were Morrigan to return sans warden (which I suspect will be the case) but the sticking point  is whether such an elegantly crafted solution will actually be present  in the final game. [/quote]
Right- its how the plot is shown in the game or whether its merely relegated to being told via codex entries, dialogue or epilogue scenes. Again, its how the return of Morrigan is handled within the game thats important- and as Aimo's DR comic and Ascension for ToB shows, good stuff gets cut and snipped from games all the time and I'd hate to see Morrigan's return likewise butchered.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
On Flemeth / Morrigan / Warden - as an individual Flemeth is more  important than the warden certainly in terms of the scope of her plot  and the fact that her "legend" spans many years and is spread in various forms among many cultures, Morrigan however I can't say how far  reaching that plotline could be until DA2 is done with and DA3 roles in. Considering she's been plot-armoured so far I expect it will be  significant.[/quote]
I'd agree- the fact that you cannot kill her isn't insignificant.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
... at a minimum, going through the mirror should have some payoff because  otherwise it doesn't serve a purpose. You can argue that the mirror  itself is the payoff, but if the result of that is a codex entry or a  contrived resolution to that thread further down the line then they  honestly might as well have left it as it was in Origins. It's like  Brock said to Gaider, they did a fantastic job with the Warden's  relationship with Morrigan, both romance and friendship, this shouldn't  be a marginal factor in how Morrigan acts in future titles.[/quote]

Right- I mean, Id be fine if the Eluvian ending was the last we ever saw of Morrigan and the Warden. The concern comes from the repeated insistence by the devs that Morrigan's story isn't over, yet also abandoning the silent PC appraoch and being mum on the Warden. So to not follow through on the choices of the DR Warden in some meaningful way, ideally with them as the PC again, strikes me as incredibly ...stupid, really. You want to show how you treat consequences in the world of DA, then allow the Warden and in turn the player, see those consequences through to the end , in game, not some crummy codex or cutscene. That was afforder to the US Wardens, I'd expect as much with the DR.

[quote]Terra_Ex wrote...
It's  difficult to explain really but to some Morrigan & the DR is a  significant plot hook for future titles, which Laidlaw and Gaider have  both touched upon, it comes down to how open you are to beginning  threads with one character and ending them with another. Certainly I can appreciate what the writers might be attempting to acheive in terms of  scope however it's ludicrous not to expect some attachment to said  threads through our existing PCs and how concluding a plot element to  the exclusion of said PC could leave the player bereft of any emotional
attachment or interest in it when it concludes.[/quote]
It makes me wonder if they simply see things as having Morrigan's return be "satisfactory" to the player should she simply return, as the player would still be in the loop. BUt that ignores the player's potential choices with their past PC and for myself, I don't think I can emphasize how massively off-putting that disconnect is. It truly genuinely sucks any and all investment out and any "emotional engagement" in a given plot boils down to mere academic curiosity- like instead of reading a book and absorbing every word on the page and enjoying the writing, you take away or otherwise marginalize the Warden/Morrigan relationship going forward and instad of giving a damn about it, it becomes more akin to being detahced and distant and merely maybe wanting to skip to the end and see what happens. 

If BioWare wants to make "emotionally engaging" games like they seemingly repeat ad nauseum in interviews you don't foster emotional engagement through characters by treating the characters and player characters like disposable cogs- especially when you've left whole plots left unresolved. Not plot threads- PLOTS. Now there are ways to have Morrigan return without the Warden that wouldn't be total rubbish, thats true. But if you want to make a really emotionally engaging climax to Morrigan's story, you;ve got to have the Warden involved and ideally that would be as the PC, not a cameo or codex entry or line of dialogue.

And if you read all that you get a prize!
Morrigan in a bikini!

Can't recall where I found this on deviantart, but its somewhere!

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 novembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[Master Shiori]

I don't see Gaider saying that having the Warden return as a playable PC in DA3 is impossible. He's simply saying that right now they can go either way.



Granted, he posted the same thing in this very thread regarding DA2 and we ended up with a new story...



But honestly, Bioware will do what they feel is best and no amount of posting or crying on our part will change that. Is there a way to bring Morrigan back and to honor our choices and romance with her without it coming off as cheap? Maybe. I certainly can't come up with one right now, but then I don't make a living by writing stories for CRPGs.



I will concede one point to David Gaider; he and the other wirters are the ones who made up Dragon Age: Origins, Morrigan, Warden and all these other characters that we came to love so much. At the very least we should cut them some slack and have faith that they can continue the loose threads from that tale in future games in a manner that they deserve.



Personally, I hope they do end up reuniting Warden and Morrigan in DA3. If not, then I expect them to honor their romance and previous history in properly fitting way and not by retelling it in a codex or an epilogue slide or two.

[UFOash]

Wow, epic post! My eyes hurt...

Got through like the first...40 paragraphs then scrolled down & was like "holy crap only half way WTF!?"

Yeah while it didn't have as many important choices in it this is similar to what they did with Mass Effect, ME2 is just a giant bucket of cameos strung together by a flimsy story that mostly revolves around fighting collectors while grabbing a horde of party members.

I guess other than romances & that what would the main plot of the Wardens next story be?
Stopping another blight? I thought they only happened once every century or every few centuries?

The problem with open-ended storylines like this is they have to find a common story which would work for both new-made players, players who did the Dark Ritual & who romanced whoever & all that.
Could Morrigan get the epic story finisher we expect without taking up too large a portion of the game for the developers to give?

You can hardly have the same meeting with Morrigan if you did the Dark Ritual or not, romanced her or didn't, went Eluvian with her, stabbed her or left her like she told you to do.

Kind of a Catch 22 thing, if they leave it or minimize it people will be mad, but if they make the story so big people who's characters have less to do with that story will complain that Morrigan monopolises the story.

Unless they make an epic multi-disc £200 Dragon Age that can tie up all possible plots.
Actually I kinda like that idea thinking about it.

[Bruddajakka]

You do know your pretty much just repeating yourself at this point right? You've been saying the same things over, and over for months now. We get that you don't like the direction DA2 is headed. The Devs have gotten the message you don't like where it's headed.

[thenemesis77]

I just played WH for the 100th time, trying to find answers........from what I can get, they will go with Morrigan and the Warden coming  back from the mirror or they make it where the Warden is in the middle of the fight, where you have Flemeth and Morrigan, their army on a battle field..


I think they will go with the Warden being left behind and either having to face off to Morrigan or Flemeth.


Morrigan told him it would not be wise to be there when she came back, thats if you didn't go with her.

I think they will bring the Warden back for DA3, to bring in a new PC for DA3 would  make the game like a one night stand, and that is putting it on mild terms. 


David wants people to fall to his way of making a story, his way is to have no main, but the background of the characters, that fails and aways has. I think he hates the idea of a main figure head to carry a story, what the hell is so wrong  with that idea?  I think what people care more about is the Characters and what they have gone threw and made them better or worse, yea Lore is key but not like your characters, they carry a story and make it great, not your lore that you are so over the top about, David.  You seem to take a character as back of he bus and your lore as first in a story........that fails, people love characters more then the lore you want to shove down our necks.

It has been in every book or game I have seen, you take out a PC character for some new person and it's a disconnect, always has been and always will be, you know why?, you should know this, we put ourselfs in that role.......yea its basic psychology, to its raw form, but you seem to know better then us, so I must bow to you.